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Dallas, TX - HDTV

1M views 14K replies 972 participants last post by  JHBrandt 
#1 ·
I say we share some info, and I'll start.


Reciever: Zenith HD-SAT520

Antenna: Channel Master Stealth (Model 3010)

Amp: None

Area: South Arlington

Channels Recieved:

4-1 Fox

5-1 NBC

8-1 ABC

8-2 Weather Map

11-1 CBS

13-1 KERA

21-1 UPN/HDNET

21-2 Weather Map

27-1 KDFI

33-1 WB

39-1 Don't Watch

48-1 Don't Watch

51-2 Don't Watch

68-1 PAX


All channels come in with good signal strength and no dropouts since I went to using the Stealth Antenna.


E4B
 
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#11,793 ·
KLEG 44.5 Diya has been dark several days now. KLEG is the last station at BofA tower.
 
#11,795 · (Edited)
KLEG's signal is 100/100 so it's more likely Diya network feed.

As I said before that it's amazing if anyone receives LPTV in DFW at all:

2 RF 4
2 RF 5
2 RF 6
4 RF 7
3 RF 11
2 RF 22
2 RF 26
 
#11,800 ·
You almost have to wonder if the radio spectrum is next. Is there anything the AM and FM bands can be repurposed for that would bring in the $$? If so, we might see a forced switch to digital radio, followed by a spectrum auction and repacking of the AM/FM bands. After all, OTA radio is dead now that people get all their music and info from online services...
 
#11,802 ·
Garage door opener? Toaster oven wifi? C'mon guys.
 
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#11,805 ·
Why the heck can't these DFW TV stations provide some higher level of public service and carry the whole press conference from Austin about the weather, electric grid, nat gas and water? Every one of them has cut away for more of their same banter I've been hearing for two days and commercials.

I know, a rhetorical question. It just aggravates me the way they do that.
 
#11,812 ·
The optimist in me sees that with the advent of 5G, the demand for spectrum has moved way up the dial. So I'm hopeful the days of stealing spectrum out of the TV band are finally over. But the damage, especially from that last grab, has been done.

In theory ATSC 3.0 could help a great deal. Think about the "sister stations" (pairs of stations with the same owner) we have in our market:
  • KDFW/4 and KDFI/27
  • KXAS/5 and KXTX/39
  • KTVT/11 and KTXA/21
  • KUVN/23 and KSTR/49
  • ... or even KHFD/51 and K26KC, just to show the idea works with LPTVs too
If ATSC 3.0 became the primary OTA standard, each of those owners could put all their programming on one of their stations, using the other as an ATSC 1.0 lighthouse. If demand for ATSC 1.0 went away over time, the lighthouses could be sold. There's no need for Fox, NBC, or Edge Spectrum to own two DFW stations in an ATSC 3.0 world - and there's certainly no need for HC2 to own five!
 
#11,813 ·
If ATSC 3.0 became the primary OTA standard, each of those owners could put all their programming on one of their stations, using the other as an ATSC 1.0 lighthouse. If demand for ATSC 1.0 went away over time, the lighthouses could be sold. There's no need for Fox, NBC, or Edge Spectrum to own two DFW stations in an ATSC 3.0 world - and there's certainly no need for HC2 to own five!
In general, I agree. But I think there should also be an asterisk on that statement to note things like resolution. If KDFW decided to broadcast 4.1 in 4K, would they still have room for all the KDFW and KDFI channels. And what if they broadcast both 4.1 and 27.1 in 4K? We've already noted here how stations are dropping resolution to add more channels, sometimes with noticeable quality degradation. Even without 4K, stations might add channels and drop resolution to the Schlitz Beer point.

To some extent, I have no problem with Fox, NBC or any other entity owning multiple stations. For me it's all about the programming. If Fox combined the programming of KDFW and KDFI on one station, but added good programming to the other that would be a net win, in my opinion. Granted, they could put crap on the 2nd station. But so could the entity they sold it to. I'm also kind of split on which is better--more stations or more channels. More channels on fewer stations has a lower cap than more stations with however many channels, as more channels could always be added with a larger station base.

And now for the long shot pipe dream: If 5G takes the load off the UHF band, what are the chances some of the snatched spectrum could be repatriated?
 
#11,814 ·
"The Future is Now"

Of the 133 channels that I can scan/lock there are only 60 remaining after hiding duplicates, money changers and poor signals. I could get a better antenna-but why?

The BEST thing has been the Digital conversion to provide more options and choices. The Worst thing is those options and choices are identical.

"People can order a new car in any color they want as long as it is black."

For me as a "typical" consumer (zombie), there is NO benefit to ATSC 3.0.

Talk of 4k is great but now 8k articles are appearing and geez I cannot wait to invest significant dough-ray-me to see "I Love Lucy" and react in Virtual Reality with that crazy redhead.

Then all my consumer behavior can provide someone with a wealth of marketing data...to produce more...of the same.
 
#11,816 ·
Talk of 4k is great but now 8k articles are appearing and geez I cannot wait to invest significant dough-ray-me to see "I Love Lucy" and react in Virtual Reality with that crazy redhead.

Then all my consumer behavior can provide someone with a wealth of marketing data...to produce more...of the same.
I think that any use of 4K--and even 8K are going to be aimed at new programs (and perhaps news programs) that target younger audiences. Even millenials could be on the fringes of the target audience. So in terms of ATSC 3.0, the 4K/8K aspects are going to be limited to the audience they can make money off of. Kind of like beer companies targeting their audience to those getting close to the age where they can legally buy beer; once you hit your 30's or 40's you've already chosen your brand of beer, and will probably not change. But take heart! They will be more than happy to use your "consumer behavior to provide someone with a wealth of marketing data". And one day, if your lucky, you'll be seeing your own personalized commercials to get the best Medicare benefits available to you, and the most comfortable pair of adult diapers on the market. There's a good chance you will even see an "as seen on TV" product you actually can't live without! All because of ATSC 3.0 and marketing analytics.

Zero. The spectrum has been sold. If broadcasters wanted to buy it back, they'd have to pay market value for it.
Yep, I agree. Question is, if it is not being used, what would the market value be? I can't imagine cell companies letting it sit fallow forever. So if 5G shifts the bandwidth higher, what will the 3G/LTE real estate be used for? BTW, the hot spot I use for my Internet is an LTE hot spot. A couple of weeks ago I got the letter informing me that the LTE network will be shut down on June 30 of this year. The phone company said they will provide me with a free SIM to replace the one currently in the hot spot--if it is compatible. If not, it looks like I'm going to be using my phone as a hot spot for my Internet.
 
#11,817 ·
Who says it's not being used? T-Mobile is running LTE and 5G-NR on 600 right now, and when NR replaces LTE, the full range will be used for NR. Dish is preparing to light up 5G-NR on 600 as well.

- Trip
 
#11,819 · (Edited)
There are multiple (I think three) frequency bands used for "5G:" low (600 MHz), medium (I forget the frequency), and high (15 GHz). It's the high band that offers the big increases in data throughput (and the cancer paranoia), but the lower two bands provide somewhat better throughput than 4G LTE, and let phone marketers tout "5G" in their ads.

I think over time, phones will switch to the higher frequency and higher throughput bands, so there's some chance the value of the 600 MHz band will diminish in several years, potentially enough for broadcasters to be willing to buy it back from the companies now using it. But remember, they're only phasing out 2G this month, so it won't be any time soon. (The FCC would also have to approve reallocating spectrum back to broadcast, putting another layer of bureaucracy in the way.) By that time, ATSC 3.0 will likely have taken over, and the need for that extra bandwidth will be greatly reduced.

And I'm sorry @Greasemonkey, but I still think hardly anyone will jump on the 4K bandwagon 24/7/365 when they can broadcast three simultaneous 1080P60 channels with HDR and WCG instead, that 99% of folks will think is 4K because it looks even better than the HD we have today. So a mass conversion to ATSC 3.0 would provide the necessary room.

That said, I don't think owners of "sister stations" will give them up willingly; the name of the OTA broadcasting game is still Monopoly (or more accurately, Oligopoly). The FCC would have to re-tighten its ownership rules for ATSC 3.0 to fulfill its promise.
 
#11,821 ·
There are multiple (I think three) frequency bands used for "5G:" low (600 MHz), medium (I forget the frequency), and high (15 GHz). It's the high band that offers the big increases in data throughput (and the cancer paranoia), but the lower two bands provide somewhat better throughput than 4G LTE, and let phone marketers tout "5G" in their ads.
Ah, life would be so much easier if only HD video could be transmitted in the ELF range! I think that even the whales could get behind that.

And I'm sorry @Greasemonkey, but I still think hardly anyone will jump on the 4K bandwagon 24/7/365 when they can broadcast three simultaneous 1080P60 channels with HDR and WCG instead, that 99% of folks will think is 4K because it looks even better than the HD we have today. So a mass conversion to ATSC 3.0 would provide the necessary room.
Oh, and IMO, 8K is a complete waste of bandwidth. Period. It's nearly at the theoretical limit of what a human with perfect vision can perceive. It only exists for bragging rights: "I have more pixels than you!" Well, big deal if you can't even see the difference. So yeah, let's clog up the Internet and airwaves with that!
I don't disagree when that is limited to broadcast television. But I think it could be a different bowl of noodles when it comes to streaming--and definitely when it comes to 4K, 8K and even 16K televisions. I really believe what we know as a "television" is rapidly becoming a "monitor", with television tuners as part of the package. Much like your cell phone is really a computer with a phone app built in. And I think ATSC 3.0 facilitates that process. Another part of that process is the production of programs. For any network or station to broadcast 4K, production companies will have to produce 4K programs of significant quality. That will probably take hold with streaming services first. And if successful, broadcast networks and OTA stations will jump on the bandwagon. But I also believe that 4K/8K16K televisions are going to become an integral part of the viewing experience, in part because it lets users zoom to a much greater degree. Let's say you get a shot of your kid catching the game winning pop out, but he is against the wall in left field and you are in the top row at the back of the grandstands. With your 16K picture on your 16K television you can zoom in on just your kid as the ball passes the plane of the glove. Crop it and then blow it up to edit any imperfections with your graphics package, then print out a professional quality, poster sized image to frame and hang on the wall. I think it would be a mistake to limit the usage of extremely high resolution imaging to broadcast TV, though I also believe it will follow as it catches on for other uses and technology advances. I even think incredible advances in compression are not only a possibility, but a probability. There's an infinite number of algorithms available to mankind, the vast majority of which are still unknown to us. They're like the dark energy of the computing world.
 
#11,822 ·
I'm STILL waiting for my flying car! :)
 
#11,825 ·
I just wanted to fly slower than the posted speed with my left blinker on. It's the only way to make people mad and wave at the same time. Sometimes they drop their phones.
 
#11,826 ·
I've noticed that NTD has made some changes recently. Starting late last year they aired their first original production, titled "A Good Cop". More recently I've noticed that the 5:00PM time slot has stopped carrying the normal programming such as "The Taste Show", "Counterpunch", etc and started showing 30 minute infomercials. The NTD branding is missing, but I assume it is them and not KLEG. And now they have started running another original comedy program called "A Little Sketchy TV". The opening video and music looks and sounds a lot like the "Saturday Night Live" opening, especially with that New York sax honking the melody and the video editing style. The infomercial is kind of a downer, but the original programming makes me think that their network is not only doing well, but also expanding. I guess the real barometer will be the number of OTA television stations that carry them, and how many houses are catching them on cable, satellite and streaming services.
 
#11,830 ·
Since no one has mentioned it yet, Fox announced that it will distribute its new Fox Weather streaming channel over the air on a sub channel of its owned stations (as well as other new distribution channels to expand its availability beyond the app and websites). So, at some point Fox Weather will be on a sub channel of KDFW or KDFI. It has already popped up on sub channels of their Fox O&Os WNYW NYC and KTVU Oakland/SFO.


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#11,831 ·
RabbitEars is tracking this. One of the programming executives at Fox is going to provide a list of their stations as the new sub-channel starts to appear on their network>>>

 
#11,833 ·
And of those two, I'd put my money on 4.2 since they are they Fox affiliate and that would be more in line with their branding. And if they have a local weather segment a few time each hour it would be a good thing. It also wouldn't be too hard for it to beat WFAA's weather channel for quality. When they switched to what they have now the quality dropped through the floor, with auto-commercials interrupting the flow way too often.
 
#11,834 ·
#11,835 ·
I'm often wrong about these things, so it's equally likely they'll just add a .5 to one or the other. KDFI had 5 subchannels at one time, and a weather channel usually doesn't need a lot of bits.

But unlike WFAA's simulcast on RF 30, Fox's simulcasts never made much sense. Maybe one makes sense if they're preparing to flip the other station to ATSC 3.0, but two? I doubt you could find 50 OTA viewers in the whole metroplex who can receive KDFW but not KDFI or vice versa.
 
#11,836 ·
I doubt you could find 50 OTA viewers in the whole metroplex who can receive KDFW but not KDFI or vice versa.
I suspect it's more about "must carry" revenue. It could incidentally also provide backup service when on auxiliary equipment.

I doubt Fox will add another diginet just for weather reports from New York without any locals. It also suggested that a daily one hour broadcast would be on regular O&O stations.
 
#11,839 ·
Do you think Fox Weather will be expanded outside of their station group to other Fox affiliates?

I can already watch them via The Roku Channel, which I guess is good enough for me. I was watching it the other night and was not really impressed. Very little live weather coverage and lots of useless filler, like a replay of Hurricane Gustav coverage by Geraldo Rivera.

Too bad a service similar to the old NBC Weather Plus no longer exists, at least in my market where the two stations here both replaced it with something else. The former NBC Weather Plus affiliate converted to a local version after the network shutdown, which was later reduced to 3 full-screen radars and commercials with no briefings until it was replaced with the launch of Justice. 4 or so months later, the radar re-appeared on a new sub, which got replaced by COZI in 2017, never to be seen again after that. The other station had their own localized & branded version from the start, very similar to NBC Weather Plus but also with news briefings as well. It was dropped in 2011 and replaced with MeTV. I believe a lack of interest as well as the adoption of smart phones & weather apps resulted in many stations abandoning the concept. Plus, in many cases, they were not very profitable.
 
#11,842 ·
These early DST starters are a problem for the DTVPal DVR. The Pal will typically "spring forward" today, then go back to standard time tomorrow, when it sees stations start the cycle a day early. This both causes missed recordings and often triggers a bug in the DTVPal firmware, causing corrupted recording timers and worse.

The bug would cause trouble anyway, but these early starts give the bug two extra chances to strike during each DST transition.

Somehow, E* avoided this on the DVR+. Even if, like @Greasemonkey, your DVR+ isn't connected to the Internet, the DVR+ seems to ignore the early starters and wait for a greater consensus among the stations before switching to DST.

OTOH, the HC2 stations will likely screw it up when DST actually hits March 13, and then off-the-grid DVR+'s will start having trouble.
 
#11,845 ·
I was just referring to how the two DVRs (DTVPal and DVR+) determine when to switch to/from DST. They have to know the date of the switch in advance so they can display the guide correctly at that point in time.

IIRC, until recently KODF (and several other HC2 stations) did it wrong, changing their idea of GMT time by an hour instead of just setting or clearing the DST flag. But your DVR+ still knew the correct date the switch would take place.

But as far as determining the actual time of day, it certainly could be as simple as "use the PSIP time from the first station scanned in," thus causing the DVR+ to get thrown off an hour, and forcing you to set the DVR+'s time manually, when KODF incorrectly changed their GMT time signal.
 
#11,847 ·
But as far as determining the actual time of day, it certainly could be as simple as "use the PSIP time from the first station scanned in," thus causing the DVR+ to get thrown off an hour, and forcing you to set the DVR+'s time manually, when KODF incorrectly changed their GMT time signal.
And even then, I think that would be how it sets the time following a reboot after power has been cut. Since I use the timer to reboot it twice a day, once it had fully rebooted and done it's initial PSIP scan all I had to do was turn the "Auto Date and Time" setting off, then back on and the correct time would set. That led me to believe that there were actually two processes at work: One to the time, and one to maintain the time. It does make sense that it would snag the time from the first channel it sees when it reboots. If KERA was RF2 or RF3 I think there would have never been any problems.

I noticed it was produced in Canada. Not quite SCTV quality but was OK. I think they need a live audience to play to.
What??? You didn't hear those 5 people clapping as the theme music was fading and the host was introducing himself?:) What struck me when I watched the credits was how few people are involved in the production. Even in small productions you can have 100 people credited for things all the way down to catering. I noticed that many of the people were credited for multiple jobs here. But in the NTD tradition, most of them might be volunteers, as is the case with a lot of their network. I'm guessing that most of the on-air NTD people are getting paid since they are pursuing a career in journalism. But the camera operators and other technicians might be volunteering as part of the effort to promote the Falun Gong cause.
 
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