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post #3451 of 3843 Old 12-17-2011, 06:17 AM
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I think I found it. I turn certain light switches on in the house I lose the signal completely. Now to figure out how to remedy it.
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post #3452 of 3843 Old 12-17-2011, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bobg3 View Post

I think I found it. I turn certain light switches on in the house I lose the signal completely. Now to figure out how to remedy it.

Could be noisy compact fluorescent ballast electronics (common with cheap bulbs) or noisy dimmer switches - most likely the former. The VHF-LO band where channel 6 resides is notoriously sensitive to electrical interference, whereas UHF is relatively immune. I'm less than 20 miles from Roxborough, but using a particular coffee grinder plugged into a particular outlet will blow WPVI nearly off the air.

Also, switching power supplies (like the brick that powers a laptop computer) often have inadequate power line filtering and leak quite a bit of RF harmonic energy back into the lines, even when the computer is not turned on. Try unplugging any of those you might have just to see if it's having an effect. I have one of those that, if plugged into a certain circuit, will render many of my X10 controlled lights inoperative.
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post #3453 of 3843 Old 12-17-2011, 06:46 AM
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It's my new energy saving led bulbs. I took them out and my signal sits at 40%. I turn just one on and no signal immediately. Now to figure out how to bring this signal higher then 40.
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post #3454 of 3843 Old 12-17-2011, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobg3 View Post

It's my new energy saving led bulbs. I took them out and my signal sits at 40%. I turn just one on and no signal immediately. Now to figure out how to bring this signal higher then 40.

Wow, you're right, it's the switching power supply issue in a bulb - I have 3 LED bulbs made by Philips, and they emit hardly any RFI, but two made by Lighting Sciences Group (and marketed by Home Depot under their Ecosmart label) give off quite a lot, as do a couple of LED undercounter lighting strips from Lowes. The former radiate from the bulb electronics but not back into the power lines; the latter are pretty nasty and send it all over the house wiring! Not enough to disturb any TV signals here, but easy to detect using the old AM-radio trick.
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post #3455 of 3843 Old 12-20-2011, 08:56 AM
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Radioshack guy said they do not carry the UHF bowtie and 300 to 75 ohm converter. (They had 75 to 300 Ohm converter). Where can I get them ? Newegg/ebay ?

Thanks
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post #3456 of 3843 Old 12-20-2011, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by arnott View Post

Radioshack guy said they do not carry the UHF bowtie and 300 to 75 ohm converter. (They had 75 to 300 Ohm converter). Where can I get them ? Newegg/ebay ?

Thanks

A balun (75/300 ohm) has two connectors - a coax connector (75 ohms unbalanced) and a twinlead connector (two screws or wires, 300 ohms balanced). It doesn't matter which direction it is converting, though some will have a male coax connector (intended to go onto your set), and some will have a female (intended to go up on the mast). You need the one with the male connector, usually a push-on, and the two screws. They're available virtually everywhere (try Home Depot or Best Buy for example), and so are the cheapie UHF loop antenna's (one used to come with every small analog TV set, whether you wanted it or not.) I recall RCA makes a $10 loop antenna that already has the balun built-in, so has a 75 ohm connector on the end of it's cable.
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post #3457 of 3843 Old 12-20-2011, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by frank70 View Post

A balun (75/300 ohm) has two connectors - a coax connector (75 ohms unbalanced) and a twinlead connector (two screws or wires, 300 ohms balanced). It doesn't matter which direction it is converting, though some will have a male coax connector (intended to go onto your set), and some will have a female (intended to go up on the mast). You need the one with the male connector, usually a push-on, and the two screws. They're available virtually everywhere (try Home Depot or Best Buy for example), and so are the cheapie UHF loop antenna's (one used to come with every small analog TV set, whether you wanted it or not.) I recall RCA makes a $10 loop antenna that already has the balun built-in, so has a 75 ohm connector on the end of it's cable.

Thanks, will check the stores this weekend. Will this one work ?
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post #3458 of 3843 Old 12-20-2011, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by arnott View Post

Thanks, will check the stores this weekend. Will this one work ?

That's the general idea, except that one has no 300 ohm leads at all and is meant to attach to your TV exactly where the 75 ohm coax connector is, which in general is not a great place to locate the antenna since a) it may not fit there; and b) you have no choice how to orient it other than the same way as your TV is sitting.

Something more like this is a little more flexible: http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT111-Bas...p_ob_e_title_0 . I know it's 8 bucks instead of a buck, but at least you can move it away from the back of the set and turn it in any direction. The dipole elements can be unscrewed, or kept on to (maybe) get channel 6. And the balun is build in. WalMart's and the like carry these.

I actually used one of these for a kitchen TV for a few months before I got tired of inconsistent reception and tied the TV into my attic antenna setup. Don't expect miracles.
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post #3459 of 3843 Old 12-20-2011, 12:22 PM
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Go figure a Radio Shack that doesn't know their product. Sorry about sending you on a wild goose chase. I am also surprised that even Amazon doesn't sell the classic bow-tie UHF antenna.

Here is the bow-tie at Overstock.com http://www.overstock.com/Electronics...5/product.html The price is a little high, but it's the right piece

Here is the 75 ohm combiner at Radio Shack. http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062059

I guess that the Shack discontinued the bowtie and the high turnover staff only gets training on mobile phone plans and extended warranties.

Michael from the Cheryl and Mike Show
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post #3460 of 3843 Old 12-21-2011, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by frank70 View Post

That's the general idea, except that one has no 300 ohm leads at all and is meant to attach to your TV exactly where the 75 ohm coax connector is, which in general is not a great place to locate the antenna since a) it may not fit there; and b) you have no choice how to orient it other than the same way as your TV is sitting.

Something more like this is a little more flexible: http://www.amazon.com/RCA-ANT111-Bas...p_ob_e_title_0 . I know it's 8 bucks instead of a buck, but at least you can move it away from the back of the set and turn it in any direction. The dipole elements can be unscrewed, or kept on to (maybe) get channel 6. And the balun is build in. WalMart's and the like carry these.

I actually used one of these for a kitchen TV for a few months before I got tired of inconsistent reception and tied the TV into my attic antenna setup. Don't expect miracles.

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Originally Posted by Cherylandmike View Post

Go figure a Radio Shack that doesn't know their product. Sorry about sending you on a wild goose chase. I am also surprised that even Amazon doesn't sell the classic bow-tie UHF antenna.

Here is the bow-tie at Overstock.com http://www.overstock.com/Electronics...5/product.html The price is a little high, but it's the right piece

Here is the 75 ohm combiner at Radio Shack. http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062059

I guess that the Shack discontinued the bowtie and the high turnover staff only gets training on mobile phone plans and extended warranties.

Thanks for ur advice, will try them. Found this one on monoprice, will it work ? Seems to have good reviews.
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post #3461 of 3843 Old 12-22-2011, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by arnott View Post

Thanks for ur advice, will try them. Found this one on monoprice, will it work ? Seems to have good reviews.

Perhaps, but any cheap antenna with an amplifier is likely to be worse than one without. All this seemingly high-tech cuteness doesn't add anything and may well detract from basic antenna science. That being said, anything is worth a try; the amplifier may be marginally useful if you use a long cable run to the set, but it's unlikely that the LNA is of any quality.
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post #3462 of 3843 Old 12-27-2011, 06:14 PM
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[oops, subject line should read Distributed Transmission System]
WFMZ has filed for a 2-site DTS with Site 1 being the existing 800 kW on RF 46 from Allentown and Site 2 being 3.6 kW from Roxborough. I'm told that they plan to start testing Site 2 in January.

Poking around I found this engineering report: https://licensing.fcc.gov/cdbs/CDBS_...um=1&exhcnum=1
The report makes clear that Marantha Broadcasting's main objective is to get usable signals to the Verizon VHO and headends for DirecTV and Dish. Sounds like there are "must carry" issues and in particular they accuse Verizon of dragging their feet. "Calculations by this office indicate that an ERP of less than 3.6 kW proposed might be insufficient to fully provide a stable long-term signal level of –61 dBm to all three headends mentioned herein. This is particularly true with respect to Verizon who has been unwilling
neither to allow any station technical representative witness the company’s testing procedure nor to directly question the results. A game of delay - delay - delay has continued for some time now which MARNATHA believes is not in the Public Interest."

So apparantly even in this day and age it is still important that there be a receivable RF signal at Verizon's VHO for legal reasons.

I found this discussion from November that indicates that WFMZ's HD feed is now channel 515 in Verizon's lineup: http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,26500678. Verizon does not appear to carry WFMZ's subchannels 69.3 ME TV or 69.4 RTV, or maybe those are elsewhere since those networks are carried on multiple stations across the country. They do carry WPHL's Antenna TV and ThisTV.

Anyway my interest in all of this is that maybe when WFMZ starts a signal from Roxborough I might actually be able to lock on it. I was reading some stuff that says that receivers can handle a signal from two different sources at slightly different times as long as the two are within 30 microseconds of each other. As Allentown is 46 miles away and Roxborough 11, the two stations would be something like 35 miles apart which by my calculations would have the two signals arrive here something like 188 microseconds apart i.e. the two signals would jam each other but maybe I'm wrong about that.

I would love to hear someone else's thoughts on all this. Trip?
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post #3463 of 3843 Old 12-27-2011, 08:57 PM
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I thought they had lit up a 45 translator to fill that gap.

In any case, they will almost certainly use GPS synchronization as several other DTS setups use in order to minimize the delay. You calculated 188 ms but that assumes they both transmit at the same time. If Roxborough is delayed by 170 ms, for example, then you only have an 18 ms echo.

I believe WMBC, WHKY, and WWPX are using GPS synchronization at the very least, and those are only the ones I can confirm. There are likely more.

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post #3464 of 3843 Old 12-28-2011, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

I thought they had lit up a 45 translator to fill that gap.

They have, but it's only 170 watts, too weak to lock on here, even only 11 miles away.
Quote:


In any case, they will almost certainly use GPS synchronization as several other DTS setups use in order to minimize the delay. You calculated 188 ms but that assumes they both transmit at the same time. If Roxborough is delayed by 170 ms, for example, then you only have an 18 ms echo.

That would work for me because I'm south of both stations. But what about locations in between the two stations, or to the north of both stations? Then the required delay would be different.

Quote:


I believe WMBC, WHKY, and WWPX are using GPS synchronization at the very least, and those are only the ones I can confirm. There are likely more.

There is also WTVE here in Philadelphia. From what I've read about DTS you have to use GPS to synchronize the stations. And another thing they do is add a unique "watermark" to each site's signal so that when they are testing they can tell how much of the signal they are receiving at specific locations is from which transmitter.
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post #3465 of 3843 Old 12-29-2011, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank70 View Post

From Rovi on 7 Dec:
-------------------

Dear Frank,

Our equipment at the local broadcast station KYW has been taken offline pending the completion of some testing at the station. We have no ETA, but are hopeful to be back up within the next couple of weeks.

As before, we will add this case to the escalation and your case will be updated the same as the others regarding this issue.

Thank you for your patience,

CE Tech Support
Rovi

Regarding TVGOS, from the New York local OTA topic:
Quote:


TVGOS will return to WCBS. It was removed because it caused issues with Closed Captioning. The issues were not with end user Digital TV receivers as found in current HDTV's or standalone STB's, but with multichannel provider Cable and DBS head end hardware that eventually affected end users of those providers, who used CC. Also found were bit errors that caused outages on air.

Since KYW-DT is also a CBS Corporation owned and operated station, like WCBS, it will follow the same guidelines as WCBS. Meaning TVGOS will return to KYW-DT. I don't have a time line, but I will ask.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #3466 of 3843 Old 12-29-2011, 06:31 AM
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Thanks Ken!
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post #3467 of 3843 Old 12-29-2011, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

Regarding TVGOS, from the New York local OTA topic:


Since KYW-DT is also a CBS Corporation owned and operated station, like WCBS, it will follow the same guidelines as WCBS. Meaning TVGOS will return to KYW-DT. I don't have a time line, but I will ask.

It should be back on the air early next year.

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post #3468 of 3843 Old 12-29-2011, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otaguy View Post

That would work for me because I'm south of both stations. But what about locations in between the two stations, or to the north of both stations? Then the required delay would be different.

Not a clue. I've been assured that it is somehow possible. Maybe the idea is that the signal from the booster will be too weak by the time the echo exceeds 30 ms? Who knows.

Quote:


There is also WTVE here in Philadelphia. From what I've read about DTS you have to use GPS to synchronize the stations. And another thing they do is add a unique "watermark" to each site's signal so that when they are testing they can tell how much of the signal they are receiving at specific locations is from which transmitter.

I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that WTVE is GPS synced but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. (The three I mentioned are somehow using ATSC-M/H to do their synchronization.)

On the contrary, I'm not aware of any watermarking. My understanding is that the two signals must be identical or else they will be treated as interference rather than multipath.

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post #3469 of 3843 Old 12-30-2011, 05:22 AM
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It should be back on the air early next year.

That could be defined as next Tuesday, or sometime before April.
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post #3470 of 3843 Old 12-30-2011, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Not a clue. I've been assured that it is somehow possible. Maybe the idea is that the signal from the booster will be too weak by the time the echo exceeds 30 ms? Who knows.

The Axcera paper cited below talks about WPSX in State College PA and says this: "The time offset between the transmitters was adjusted to put the concurrent arrival time point approximately over the Rattlesnake site." So apparently they do what you said - put a delay on one of the transmitters so that the two signals arrive at very close to the same time at a particular location. In the case of WFMZ the Allentown transmitter is quite a bit stronger than the proposed Roxborough transmitter plus there are hills in the way between the two sites (which is why they want to do a DTS in the first place) so maybe between these two facts they can get it to work, i.e. put a delay on Roxborough so that south of the two transmitters the two signals arrive within 30 ms of each other and further north depend on the strength of the Allentown transmitter and the intervening hills to prevent the echo from Roxborough from causing problems.
Quote:


On the contrary, I'm not aware of any watermarking. My understanding is that the two signals must be identical or else they will be treated as interference rather than multipath.

From Axcera paper on DTS:
http://www.axcera.com/downloads/tech...hite_paper.pdf
To aid in system setup and diagnostics, the distributed transmission system includes a unique “watermark” signal for each transmitter in a network. The watermark signal is a low-level code, buried underneath the ATSC symbols. It appears as noise to receivers. The noise level is small enough so that it will have little or no practical effect on threshold (typically only about 0.1 dB).
The RF watermark sampling instants are the same as the ATSC symbols. This creates eight minor eye openings in the demodulated I channel, with the normal seven major eye openings interspersed as shown in Figure 5. This figure was produced by a software simulation of the RF watermark injected at a bury ratio of 27 dB.
The RF watermark signal will typically be operated about 30 dB below the transmitter’s average output. However, the coding benefits from a 54 dB coding gain when integrated over one ATSC field. So, it is theoretically possible to identify a buried code from a transmitter that is 24 dB weaker than an interfering transmitter in just one field.
Additional averaging, over multiple fields, would increase the decoding gain.
A constellation display derived from the same simulation is shown in Figure 6. This display shows that each I channel line splits into two. The distance between the two constellation lines is proportional to the RF watermark injection level. The objective in creating the RF watermark system is to be able to identify individual components of a received aggregate signal, and to associate the received components with individual transmitters, as shown in Figure 4 above. Even if one transmitter’s signal is buried underneath a stronger signal, it is still possible to identify the components from the weaker transmitter because of the coding gain of the watermark signal.
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post #3471 of 3843 Old 12-30-2011, 09:57 AM
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What is TVGOS?
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post #3472 of 3843 Old 12-30-2011, 10:53 AM
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What is TVGOS?

TV-Guide On Screen, an electronic program guide service provided by Rovi (formerly Macrovision who acquired Gemstar) that sends guide data via analog and digital bitstreams piggy-backed on existing OTA, cable, satellite, and fiber channels in most major markets to TVGOS-enabled consumer devices. The piggy-backing has caused several piggies to stumble recently resulting in month-long or longer outages while Rovi engineers scratch their collective heads.

In the spirit of piggy-backing, Ken H posted this link in the NYC OTA forum that should give you even more info: http://www.rovicorp.com/products/ce_..._on_screen.htm
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post #3473 of 3843 Old 12-31-2011, 12:05 PM
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Anyone experiencing reception problems on NBC10 the past few days? My other channels seem OK but the signal strength on 10 has dropped.
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post #3474 of 3843 Old 12-31-2011, 03:43 PM
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Anyone experiencing reception problems on NBC10 the past few days?

Signal strength for NBC 10 is very good here at 21 miles north of Roxborough.
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post #3475 of 3843 Old 12-31-2011, 06:58 PM
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Good here in Manahawkin Nj 54 miles away
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post #3476 of 3843 Old 01-02-2012, 09:41 AM
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Just picked up the GE indoor antenna from Home depot. After tuning I am getting:

KYW 3-1 HD
WCAUDT 10-1 HD
NonStop 10-2
WHYY 12-1,2,3,6,7 (weak/no signal)
PHL 17-1 HD
Antenna 17-2
ThisTV 17-3
Tango 17-4
WTXFDT 29-1 (keeps disappearing and coming back)
35-1 Mind
35-2 Mind d (NHK)
F24
RT
TBN 48-1
CC 48-2
JCTV 48-3
enlace 48-4
SOAC 48-5
WPSG 57-1 HD

If I get the RCA Basic Indoor Antenna, will it result in improvements ? The RCA has better reviews than the GE one.

Any tips on getting ABC ? Thanks for all your help.

I am using this splitter. Can I use 2 antennae by inverting the splitter ?
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post #3477 of 3843 Old 01-02-2012, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by arnott View Post

Any tips on getting ABC ? Thanks for all your help.

Extend those two dipoles out so that each one is about 33" long, spread them out as close to horizontal as possible (without poking somebody in the eye) and aim one south, the other north (for reception from Rox to the west of you.)
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post #3478 of 3843 Old 01-02-2012, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by arnott View Post

Can I use 2 antennae by inverting the splitter ?

Why are you splitting the signal? 2-TV sets? Remember that each TV then only gets (slightly less than) half the signal, which is marginal to start with. Don't use a splitter if you're feeding only one TV.

Although you certainly CAN combine two antennas to feed one TV using the splitter backwards, two indoor UHF/VHF antennas are NOT likely to be better than one.
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post #3479 of 3843 Old 01-02-2012, 01:50 PM
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arnott, where are you? Based on what you are getting you probably ought to be able to lock on WPPX 61-1. 61-2, 61-3 and WUVP 65-1 and 65-2 in addition to what you already listed. The stations you are having problems with are VHF. WPVI 6-1. 6-2, 6-3 (abc) is VHF low and WHYY 12-1, 12-2, 12-3 is VHF high. For those you need rabbit ears. With an outdoor antenna you might be able to pick up a few more weaker stations.
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post #3480 of 3843 Old 01-02-2012, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank70 View Post

Extend those two dipoles out so that each one is about 33" long, spread them out as close to horizontal as possible (without poking somebody in the eye) and aim one south, the other north (for reception from Rox to the west of you.)

I extended the 2 dipoles and tuned again. Lost Fox (29-1) and got NJTV (23-1). Will play around by shifting the directions more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frank70 View Post

Why are you splitting the signal? 2-TV sets? Remember that each TV then only gets (slightly less than) half the signal, which is marginal to start with. Don't use a splitter if you're feeding only one TV.

Although you certainly CAN combine two antennas to feed one TV using the splitter backwards, two indoor UHF/VHF antennas are NOT likely to be better than one.

One TV. I have kept the antenna close to the window and using the splitter to connect the Antenna to a long coaxial cable. I guess, I need a F Connector ?

If I connect the 2 antennae to the inverted splitter and orient the antennae at different angles and different dipole lengths, is there a chance of getting more channels at the same time ?

I am stunned by the HD quality with the OTA signals.
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