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post #2881 of 4956 Old 02-17-2009, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingvee View Post

you must have run into this before - yes, a Sony DHG500. I just did an ADD CHANNELS....now I'm doing a complete rescan - with luck that'll fix it.

EDIT - YES, that did it. Now coming in fine, in the right place. 7.1 is where it belongs, and working fine. Sry for the whine; thanks for the help.

No worries, glad to help. It seems like these Sony receivers have all kinds of issues with weak or new signals. I've gotten good at picking out who is having "Sony problems" just from their posts.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

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post #2882 of 4956 Old 02-17-2009, 08:23 PM
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Well, I played around with the dipole "ears" on my indoor antenna for about 20 minutes tonight, trying to get them to tune in KWWL on channel 7, while not messing up the UHF loop position that has worked perfectly for the past few years for the rest of the channels. The best I can do now is between 58 and 62% for KWWL (was getting 85-90% when it was on channel 55). I'll have to see how it goes Wed night for "Life", but I'm afraid I'll have just enough periodic drop outs that I'll be too annoyed to watch it all the way through. Bummer.
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post #2883 of 4956 Old 02-17-2009, 09:26 PM
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I broke out a set of rabbit ears (two telescoping rods) - extended each to about 14" on the east side of my sunroom. Antenna is 7 feet above ground - I'm at 940 feet ASL in NW Cedar Falls. Sony KDL-V32XBR1 says 80-83% signal strength (whatever that means)... more importantly - 25db of SNR and the AGC is attacking 43% of the time.
Pretty good IMHO... considering the Sony maxes out at 98-99% signal with 31db SNR on any channel.

I'm good to go terrestrial (KTTC and KWWL, waiting for WHO to swap to digital on 13 after midnight and for KAAL to get on 36 digital - whenever that will be - my only worry is when WOI goes digital on 5... 66-72Mhz still means a lot of horizontal metal compared to 174-216 for channels 7-13).

Now if Tivo will update the terrestrial channel assignments (since I stupidly programmed most of my NBC shows on 55/7.1 instead of my CFU feed)
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post #2884 of 4956 Old 02-17-2009, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by CR_Client View Post

The audio quality on 7.1 for SVU is absolutely horrendous on both Mediacon as well as OTA. Like the other night, it's way over-boosted, clipping even with my TV and stereo turned down 15 dB lower than my usual listening volume.

Right after we saw this post, Jarrett and I were checking out the audio on the Dolby encoder. It was difficult to tell if the center channel was coming over modulated from the network source, or if it was our conversion gear doing it. Making it more difficult is that there is no late night content in 5.1.

If you notice this during the Today Show - please let us know! We will probably be on the phone too much to spend much time listening.

thanks!

-Eric
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post #2885 of 4956 Old 02-17-2009, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by n0ttw View Post

I used to get 2 and 9 pretty clear on analog (9 only now), but 7 always was way snowy on analog. When it came to digital, KWWL again was iffy but after some minor tuning on my part it was stable.

So my question is.....

Could this be a hidden radiator problem on KWWL's end? I should see something even if the ERP was 500 watts....

It certainly isn't a propogation problem as I'm too close to the tower. I can't be in a null-point as I wouldn't receive the other stations well. Can't be an antenna problem on my end or I'd have other problems with other stations period. I even transmitted a make-shift analog video signal on 7 and the TVs in the house received it.

As a ham radio operator and an Electronic Technician, I have gone through my system with a fine tooth comb. I have never seen this problem before and I'm just looking for answers.

We don't think that it is a radiator problem...for example, I have a phone call from a family 20 miles NE of Prairie du Chien, WI, that had never seen us before - were getting us perfectly tonight, yet people 10 miles off of the tower are having problems.

It seems like it probably is a multipath issue. We were toying around with an Insignia converter box, a set of rabbit ears, and a 2'x1.5' metal sheet (as a blocking device/reflector) and depending on position, able to improve the signal picked up by the rabbit ears by as much as 50%.

It's certainly not a solution that we would like to suggest to all of our viewers, but it was interesting to experiment with.

-Eric
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post #2886 of 4956 Old 02-17-2009, 11:47 PM
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Regarding channel 7, if you have a signal bouncing up and down, it might be an FM problem. On analog I had interference that would ruin the picture every 20 seconds or so until I installed an FM trap.

Not sure if FM interference would apply now, but it sure can't be helping things.

And, I'd also like to quote something I recently heard a TV engineer say, "indoor antennas suck".

If you want free TV and don't want to constantly have to tweak things, invest in a good
outdoor antenna and at least put it in your attic and run some good coax for it.

Yes, it might cost you $100 or even $200, but what would cable TV or a dish cost?
It's a one time fee. I'm sorry if you live in a place where you can't do this, but it's the truth.

I spent about $150 to put full sized UHF and VHF antennas, a preamp, combiner and
a coax run (all Winegard or Channel Master) in my attic in about 1992, and I figure I've
probably saved myself over $5-7000 in bills.

I figure if I ever move, I can use it as a selling point.

Good luck, everyone!
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post #2887 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 04:58 AM
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I agree 100% that the issues with KWWL are multipath. KWWL Analog was always my worst looking station here in Independence, not due to low signal, but due to severe multipath, even when I had a real V/U antenna at 35' on a tower.

Tonight when I get home from work I'll tweak my antenna a bit, it's supposed to be a Hi-VHF/UHF antenna, but it never performed well on VHF Analog. It's what worked at the time without having to build a tower or go up on the roof.

Anyone know of some cheap/free tower sections? Only need 40-50 feet.

The comments and opinions expressed in my posts are strictly my own and are not necessarily those of my employer or anyone else.
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post #2888 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 05:19 AM
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Got home from work this am @ 5:30 , put a cheap preamp from Walmart on line since the 7.x stations were pixelating bad on my DVR....but not on my Vizio 26" LCD. (splitter was before running to either).

I then turned my rotator to Davenport and rescanned..................If I am turned toward DVP the rear of my antenna is pointing toward KWWL tower.

Getting 2, 4. 6. 7. 8. 9, 12, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 28, 32, 48......and the DT channels associated with most of them . No pixelation for the most part.

Watching Today show right now.................off the back end of my antenna...............excellent pix thru the DVR tuner (& the TV tuner in HD of course) Sound is good

Once again at approximately Hwy 1 & Hwy 151 south of Anamosa 950' above msl................uhf/vhf antenna(100 mile rating) 30 ft above ground on top of my house.

I see KGAN-TV is running the DTV infomercial from IPTV in a loop. 2.1 is running CBS & KGAN normal programming
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post #2889 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 05:37 AM
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I was hoping to re-scan this morning, but the power was out on my street.

I bet I tried to re-scan 10 times last night on my Olevia/indoor rig, and maybe 5 times with the PC/CM2016...no go.

Looks like I may have to check out the FM trap switch on the CM7777 amplifier...appears I have to pop the cover and inside is a toggle switch on/off. I got a feeling that may be the ultimate issue.
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post #2890 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 06:26 AM
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I rescanned with the HDHomerun yesterday around 7pm. I live on a hill in Iowa City with a fairly unobstructed view. KWWL just barely came in with my UHF-only silver sensor out on the deck. Getting everything working in Vista Media Center required a couple trips through the configuration utility and a reboot. The signal is stable, but just barely usable and occasionally drops below the usable level. I have a pair of rabbit ears to experiment with tonight.
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post #2891 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 06:39 AM
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oldsyd:

I agree that FM may be causing your signal to fluctuate. Depending on
where you live might need a bullet type trap inside your home too.
Microwave Filter Company makes them and so does Gilbert.

uhf:
An antenna in the >>> pattern might be better than a H-H pattern to cut
multipath. Warren Electronics in Rock Island has had a few section at their
shop for months, if you don't mind driving for them.

All:
My antenna design I posted last fall works like a charm here in Cedar
Rapids/Marion area. We tried it in North Liberty and was having some issue
with real 7 DT. I will try a newer design with more physical gain (ie: more
elements for 7-9 this Spring) might be in the >>> pattern but that is much
harder to drill with thin aluminum. I'll let everyone know how it makes out.
I sure like the current tiny design and when my neighbor saw the
HD signal he ate crow from his fall season ridicule of my antenna.
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post #2892 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 06:56 AM
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Is it ok to hate this crap? (the whole transition?)

thought I was totally proactive - got my lil box w/govt coupon (love that I paid sales tax on full pop - guess Chet needs the money worse than me.) dug around, found a 75 -> 300 convertor, since the tv in my office is so old it runs off the twin lead rabbit ears. had the coax cable, was all set.

and dang - I need another convertor to get my rabbit ears to work. This is a kludge. scr@w the coupons - we need Obama to buy everyone a new tv with built in astc convertor and antenna.

(I almost called Mediacom - to take them up on their 4 months free basic offer )

But I know my convertor box will work - it has DTV printed right on front.

Jon

Denon DVP - everyone else loves it.
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post #2893 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldsyd View Post

And, I'd also like to quote something I recently heard a TV engineer say, "indoor antennas suck".

Remember the very first cell phones, milk-carton sized beasts with pool cues sticking out the top, so that if you were outside, on a hill, it would maybe get reception. I wonder why that style never changed, why aren't we all still using such powerful demonstrations of technical prowess? I wonder why phones are the size of credit card now and I've never seen anyone have to extend the antenna to get a signal.
Technology is great, when things actually progress, but I fail to see how after having no problems for 4 years getting in OTA DTV with a small UHF loop antenna in my house that LOSING channels with that simple configuration is actually "progress".
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post #2894 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 07:10 AM
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Sorry didn't get a chance to make a post last night.

75% or so on KWWL with the 4228/7777 only. Solid lock, no dropouts.

Granted I am basically on the highest point in Johnson County with a very clear line of sight north. The antenna is in my attic, two story home, and even has just 6.5 of the 8 bowties left thanks to last year's ice storm.

Good thing it's working too, no VHF antennas for sale that I could find anywhere in the Iowa City area last night.
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post #2895 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by flyingvee View Post

(I almost called Mediacom - to take them up on their 4 months free basic offer )

I got that in the mail the other day and couldn't help but laugh at it. Their plan is to get you to start paying for cable after June 12. They're not really doing this to help people.
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post #2896 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivorygate View Post

Technology is great, when things actually progress, but I fail to see how after having no problems for 4 years getting in OTA DTV with a small UHF loop antenna in my house that LOSING channels with that simple configuration is actually "progress". To each their own.

Well, I never had much luck with an indoor antenna. Having to adjust it everytime for even one channel gets old after a while. My rooftop antenna, while old, picks up everything. High winds are still a bit of an issue with certain channels, but I'm guessing I need a new one.
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post #2897 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 07:53 AM
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I am getting 2.1 and 28.1 ok, but my signal strength is the same as before. Will it be better when they cut off the analog. I thought the analog would be shut off when the changeover occurred. My signal got stronger on 7.1 when the change over happened.
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post #2898 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivorygate View Post

Remember the very first cell phones, milk-carton sized beasts with pool cues sticking out the top, so that if you were outside, on a hill, it would maybe get reception.

Cellphones changed more due to a dense build-out of cell sites more than anything else. Those bag phones put out 3W at 850MHz, most of our phones today are lucky to put out 300mW at 1900MHz.

Some of the miniaturization is also due to the fact that components were developed which could transmit all on one chip dye -- ironically that's the same reason why the DTV converters are so much smaller than old tuners, even old cable boxes.

However, that being said, I really wish that the FCC would have forced stations to all move to UHF instead of letting stations go back to VHF. I'd imagine the value of frequencies opened up in VHF would have been worth significantly more than the top end UHF frequencies. Especially some of the low end VHF frequencies around 60 MHz, etc...

Oh well, too late now. We'll still have a kludge of VHF & UHF I suppose.
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post #2899 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 08:17 AM
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I know that everyone wants to talk about OTA today with the switch over yesterday but has anyone with Dish seen the local HD channels show up. According to the retail chat today was the day but when I checked before I went to work I didn't have them in HD yet.

On a bit of discouraging news some of the info from satelliteguys.us was pointing people at the dishnetwork.com site to check the local channels. Checking out our local DMA it shows only KGAN and KFXA as going to be in HD. Does anyone know if KCRG and KWWL didn't let Dish carry their HD channels. I was so hopping to get KWWL in HD on dish becasue I'm having issues getting their VHF signal.
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post #2900 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 08:27 AM
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They were all uplinked; but Dish does not usually make channels available until the afternoon or early evening. We won't know anything until then.

Speculation was that DirecTV caved to KCRG's price because they were afraid that Dish was going to light up locals and have all the channels and get people to switch from DirecTV...
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post #2901 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 08:32 AM
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Yea but why if you were planning on bringing up all 4 channels in HD would you only post two of them to your website?
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post #2902 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jalexand View Post

I know that everyone wants to talk about OTA today with the switch over yesterday but has anyone with Dish seen the local HD channels show up. According to the retail chat today was the day but when I checked before I went to work I didn't have them in HD yet.

On a bit of discouraging news some of the info from satelliteguys.us was pointing people at the dishnetwork.com site to check the local channels. Checking out our local DMA it shows only KGAN and KFXA as going to be in HD. Does anyone know if KCRG and KWWL didn't let Dish carry their HD channels. I was so hopping to get KWWL in HD on dish becasue I'm having issues getting their VHF signal.


I haven't seen anything in the uplink reports for dish yet.
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post #2903 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jalexand View Post

I know that everyone wants to talk about OTA today with the switch over yesterday but has anyone with Dish seen the local HD channels show up. According to the retail chat today was the day but when I checked before I went to work I didn't have them in HD yet.

On a bit of discouraging news some of the info from satelliteguys.us was pointing people at the dishnetwork.com site to check the local channels. Checking out our local DMA it shows only KGAN and KFXA as going to be in HD. Does anyone know if KCRG and KWWL didn't let Dish carry their HD channels. I was so hopping to get KWWL in HD on dish because I'm having issues getting their VHF signal.

KWWL would certainly allow Dish to carry the HD (in fact, they are currently doing a center cut of the hd on 9157) but I don't think they required it. This is the first I have herd of other locals being carried in HD on Dish - it is probably a requirement in the re-trans agreement.

The last time I talked to Echostar about it (a couple of months ago while they were installing their digital gear at the local up-link site) there were no plans to carry KWWL in HD.

DirecTV is currently carrying KWWL in both SD and HD (again the SD is just a center cut of the digital signal) and they even sent us a nice HD receiver and antenna so that we could monitor it - if only we had a nice TV to watch it on :-)

I believe that Echostar and DirecTV use the same up-link facility in the local area - and it should be no problem for Dish to carry the HD of KWWL. If you want to know more, the information about the re-trans agreement should be in the public file at the station - or the station manager could answer that question.

-Eric

EDIT

nevermind - Jarrett says that Dish is going HD today!
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post #2904 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elaws View Post

KWWL would certainly allow Dish to carry the HD (in fact, they are currently doing a center cut of the hd on 9157) but I don't think they required it. This is the first I have herd of other locals being carried in HD on Dish - it is probably a requirement in the re-trans agreement.

The last time I talked to Echostar about it (a couple of months ago while they were installing their digital gear at the local up-link site) there were no plans to carry KWWL in HD.

DirecTV is currently carrying KWWL in both SD and HD (again the SD is just a center cut of the digital signal) and they even sent us a nice HD receiver and antenna so that we could monitor it - if only we had a nice TV to watch it on :-)

I believe that Echostar and DirecTV use the same up-link facility in the local area - and it should be no problem for Dish to carry the HD of KWWL. If you want to know more, the information about the re-trans agreement should be in the public file at the station - or the station manager could answer that question.

-Eric

EDIT

nevermind - Jarrett says that Dish is going HD today!



From what we were told by Dish, when we called to find out if they were really taking our HD signal today, was that the press release announcement was a mistake on their part because of a communication issue within their company. They told us that they were only planning to retransmit KGAN HD and KFXA HD signals right now because of some kind of pre-agreement they had in place. When we asked if we could get a new agreement signed for HD, they said that the rest of us would have to wait until our current agreement was over. They seemed to indicate that KCRG and KWWL would not be offered at this time. We would like to have them carry the HD but am not sure if that will be an option. I'm not sure what to think about KWWL since what they told us and what Eric was told by Jarrett doesn't seem to match.

I guess stand by and we will all find out together?!?

Kirk
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post #2905 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivorygate View Post

Remember the very first cell phones, milk-carton sized beasts with pool cues sticking out the top, so that if you were outside, on a hill, it would maybe get reception. I wonder why that style never changed, why aren't we all still using such powerful demonstrations of technical prowess? I wonder why phones are the size of credit card now and I've never seen anyone have to extend the antenna to get a signal.
Technology is great, when things actually progress, but I fail to see how after having no problems for 4 years getting in OTA DTV with a small UHF loop antenna in my house that LOSING channels with that simple configuration is actually "progress".

It's funny you mention the "bag phones". I actually miss those, since the analog phones had greater range than the the new "Barbie phones". If you live out in the boonies, analog bagphones were the only way to go. There's a reason GM used analog phones for their first version of OnStar, because when you slam your Escalade into an oak tree in Lansing, IA, you are much more likely to get a signal with analog because Verizon isn't building towers to serve a town of 5,000 people.

Radio waves will always behave like radio waves, there is no way to change that. So, if it's cellphones or TV, you still will dominate with bigger, higher and outside. And you will lose radio waves when you go inside, downstairs and a smaller antenna. Sure, there's all kinds of tricks like preamps and stuff, but GIGO also applies, if it's garbage in, you still have garbage to work with.

Last night I hooked up my Apex DTV box to our spare TV up in our guest bedroom using a small UHF loop antenna. It had twin lead coming off it, and it's the cheap ones that used to come free with a TV, the insulation is all cracked. Guess what? I was able to pick up KCRG, KWKB, KFXA, KRIN and ION which if you count the different subchannels, is 11 unique channels. Obviously KWWL didn't show since it's a UHF only antenna, but I call that progress. 11 channels crystal clear with a loop antenna in the middle of an old plaster walled house?

I know it's frustrating when things change, but with all the resources here at the AVSforum, I've been able to stay ahead of the game, learn some things, and benefit from it. I know most people don't want to deal with anything technical, that's why there's copious amounts of money dumped every month to dish TV, cable companies and satellite radio.

Hang in there, it's worth it!
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post #2906 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivorygate View Post

Remember the very first cell phones, milk-carton sized beasts with pool cues sticking out the top, so that if you were outside, on a hill, it would maybe get reception.

Kinda reminds me of getting those first wireless routers to work before XP had the configuration utility built into the operating system....and yes, we had one of those motorola brick phones....like 30 min/month.

HD since Sept 2005
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post #2907 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by sgarringer View Post

However, that being said, I really wish that the FCC would have forced stations to all move to UHF instead of letting stations go back to VHF. I'd imagine the value of frequencies opened up in VHF would have been worth significantly more than the top end UHF frequencies. Especially some of the low end VHF frequencies around 60 MHz, etc...

Unless you want a 6 foot antenna on your cell phone, the VHF frequencies are pretty much useless for that sort of thing.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

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post #2908 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by KirkTV View Post

From what we were told by Dish, when we called to find out if they were really taking our HD signal today, was that the press release announcement was a mistake on their part because of a communication issue within their company. They told us that they were only planning to retransmit KGAN HD and KFXA HD signals right now because of some kind of pre-agreement they had in place. When we asked if we could get a new agreement signed for HD, they said that the rest of us would have to wait until our current agreement was over. They seemed to indicate that KCRG and KWWL would not be offered at this time. We would like to have them carry the HD but am not sure if that will be an option. I'm not sure what to think about KWWL since what they told us and what Eric was told by Jarrett doesn't seem to match.

I guess stand by and we will all find out together?!?

Kirk


Yea it's interesting that if they didn't' have any plan to broadcast you guys in HD until December they why would they allocate an uplink to both you and KWWL a month ago when they did KGAN and KFXA. I was really hoping that everything would show up in HD because my UHF/VHF isn't cutting the mustard with KWWL and at this point in winter I don't really want to figure out how to get an antenna on my roof.
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post #2909 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by jalexand View Post

Yea it's interesting that if they didn't' have any plan to broadcast you guys in HD until December they why would they allocate an uplink to both you and KWWL a month ago when they did KGAN and KFXA. I was really hoping that everything would show up in HD because my UHF/VHF isn't cutting the mustard with KWWL and at this point in winter I don't really want to figure out how to get an antenna on my roof.


I have no idea about an uplink for HD that was provided to us, nobody has ever contacted me about that in any way shape or form from Dish. All I can tell you is what the Dish representative told us this morning, when we asked why we could not go up with our HD signal today. That is what I passed along to the group for informational purposes. They said they were going to put out another press release clarifying the confusion. Not sure if they will, but that's the information I received. I wish I had more concrete news but unfortunately that is all that I have.

Kirk
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post #2910 of 4956 Old 02-18-2009, 12:04 PM
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Check your guides....

5251(2) - KGAN [MPEG4 HD] - Ciel-2 129W TP 03 Spotbeam 21 changed to Available (H)(Cedar Rapids, IA-CBS)
5253(28) - KFXA [MPEG4 HD] - Ciel-2 129W TP 03 Spotbeam 21 changed to Available (H)(Cedar Rapids, IA-FOX)
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