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post #8011 of 8473 Old 01-14-2012, 05:09 PM
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The guide data is not encrypted.

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post #8012 of 8473 Old 01-14-2012, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GE AVS View Post

I wonder if KUSA's M/H service will be a paid service of some type and they are running regular programming as a "placeholder" in the interim? Or anytime there is not paid programming (e.g., sports events) running?

BTW, if the M/H programming is encrypted, how do you know what is actually being broadcast?

Trip said that this is Dyle TV. I guess normal OTA programming will be encrypted but free. You'll still need a Dyle TV enabled device though, and it will require internet connectivity, which means that the primary devices that will use this service will be smartphones. My understanding is that the TV stations want the information they get from forcing people to register the device and also the viewer feedback they get (i.e. who needs Neilsen ratings when you have the actual true count of the number of current viewers).

The way I "knew" what was being shown is due to the existence of a M/H Current Program Descriptor in the unencrypted meta data that tells what is currently being shown (i.e. the current program name, which has been the same as what was being shown on 9.1 every time I checked it).
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post #8013 of 8473 Old 01-14-2012, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by TC AVS View Post

Rob:
Do you mind listing a major intersection near where you live? I am interested in the KRMA signal coming off of Horsetooth.

TC AVS

Sure - we're not too far southeast of the corner of Horsetooth and College.

We get KRMA's RF 47 well enough - but with an antenna pointed at Lookout, RF 18 is a much more stable deal for me here. And it's our most important channel in this house :-)

Rob T

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post #8014 of 8473 Old 01-14-2012, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmar View Post

Trip said that this is Dyle TV. I guess normal OTA programming will be encrypted but free. You'll still need a Dyle TV enabled device though, and it will require internet connectivity, which means that the primary devices that will use this service will be smartphones. My understanding is that the TV stations want the information they get from forcing people to register the device and also the viewer feedback they get (i.e. who needs Neilsen ratings when you have the actual true count of the number of current viewers).

The way I "knew" what was being shown is due to the existence of a M/H Current Program Descriptor in the unencrypted meta data that tells what is currently being shown (i.e. the current program name, which has been the same as what was being shown on 9.1 every time I checked it).

Thus, it appears we don't know for sure what is actually in the KUSA M/H program stream. Similar to the end of the New Orleans/San Francisco football game today which ran long on FOX (past 5:59 PM MST) and my EPG display was showing "Cops" was on air when the game was still on air.
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post #8015 of 8473 Old 01-17-2012, 09:05 AM
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CPT12 (formerly KBDI) update for DT channel 48 for Boulder and "L-burbs" from Jan 10 at
http://www.cpt12.org/community/viewer_buzz.cfm

"Colorado Public Television does plan to offer our three digital channels (12.1, 12.2, and 12.3) free over-the-air with an antenna, digital TV or Analog TV with converter box in the Boulder area this March. We have completed the permit process and are beginning work on the Davidson Mesa installation. Once we are up and running in Boulder, you will not need to pay for cable to view our programming. You will be able to get it free over the air. "

It says they are doing this in part to make up for the fact that Comcast is no longer carrying them on the basic analog package (and that package is going away soon anyway).
Another reason to drop Comcast ! Perhaps it will make some north Boulder folks realize that with a modest antenna (and good anteanna placement), they can get lots of digital HD channels for free.
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post #8016 of 8473 Old 01-17-2012, 10:20 AM
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I hope the new transmission will reach me here in Longmont.
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post #8017 of 8473 Old 01-17-2012, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karkus View Post

CPT12 (formerly KBDI)

Minor note: Can't be formally. Their officially FCC licensed call sign is still KBDI.

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post #8018 of 8473 Old 01-17-2012, 12:21 PM
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Should be fine in Longmont (as well as in Louisville, Lafayette, Erie, Mead, Berthoud, Lyons, and maybe even Loveland). Of course those projections are sometimes a bit optimistic.
See this map
http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.php?appid=1416160
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post #8019 of 8473 Old 01-17-2012, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Karkus View Post

CPT12 (formerly KBDI) update for DT channel 48 for Boulder and "L-burbs" from Jan 10 at
http://www.cpt12.org/community/viewer_buzz.cfm

"Colorado Public Television does plan to offer our three digital channels (12.1, 12.2, and 12.3) free over-the-air with an antenna, digital TV or Analog TV with converter box in the Boulder area this March. We have completed the permit process and are beginning work on the Davidson Mesa installation.

If I'm not mistaken, the tower that CPT-12 will occupy is undergoing structural reinforcement to accommodate the addition of their antenna. This likely has been part of the holdup to them moving their translator system at an earlier time.

This site should be a good location for them as the mesa is relatively high as both a receive site from Squaw Mountain, and a transmit point -- and Boulder/Louisville viewer directional antennas will be pointed in a generally southerly direction.
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post #8020 of 8473 Old 01-17-2012, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by rthurlow View Post

Sure - we're not too far southeast of the corner of Horsetooth and College.

We get KRMA's RF 47 well enough - but with an antenna pointed at Lookout, RF 18 is a much more stable deal for me here. And it's our most important channel in this house :-)

Rob T

Thanks, Rob. I appreciate the info.
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post #8021 of 8473 Old 01-19-2012, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dkreichen1968 View Post

How effective is K07PA-D in Manitou Springs? None of the other Colorado Springs stations have translators in Manitou Springs, so how many people are actually watching? Wouldn't it be better co-located with the Canon City translators for the other stations? While the Manitou Springs folks may give more money, I doubt that many watch OTA.


Haven't gotten to this in the last few days, but the FCC TV Query database has Pikes Peak Broadcasting with two Canon City translators, analog K12ME Ch.12and what I assume is a digital companion channel K28KC-D ch. 28. Both are currently showing as licensed status and I presume they rebroadcast ch. 13 KRDO.

Not sure whether conditions of the K12ME license would allow it to be resold or not, or whether it would be technically feasible with ch. 11 KKTV's K10LI's pending move from analog 10 to digital RF ch. 13.

I'll pass this along on the Contact us form on rmpbs.org

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post #8022 of 8473 Old 01-19-2012, 04:27 PM
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If K28KC-D is a companion channel for K12ME, then K12ME cannot be sold separately.

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post #8023 of 8473 Old 01-19-2012, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by iowegian3 View Post

Haven't gotten to this in the last few days, but the FCC TV Query database has Pikes Peak Broadcasting with two Canon City translators, analog K12ME Ch.12and what I assume is a digital companion channel K28KC-D ch. 28.

I'll pass this along on the Contact us form on rmpbs.org

What would seem easiest would be for co-location of translators at the transmission site -- with palatable leases arrangements. This assumes lack of RF interference among all the co-location tenants, which could include FMs, 2-way, etc. Generally, stringent mask filters are used, but...

What is not known at this time is the FCC stance on moving translator locations. This involves changing the city of license, among many other things. In an age of analog turn offs, and moratoriums on both new digital translator and full-service transmitters, it now remains to be seen whether the FCC will grant a change in city of license. The last I heard they were allowing this.

Trip may have a better idea of this through his tracking of sites.
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post #8024 of 8473 Old 01-19-2012, 05:37 PM
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The FCC is still allowing digital translators to move around, including city of license.

But for KTSC, filing for a translator is pretty easy. Just file for a UHF fill-in translator. As long as the contour of the fill-in translator is restrained within the contour of the main channel 8 signal, it's perfectly legal.

See here, KOAA-42 and a fill-in translator they have received a permit for on channel 47: http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.p...-104.860833333

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post #8025 of 8473 Old 01-20-2012, 02:41 AM
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The picture of an antenna above was only $20 at Micro Center Denver store and was doing all right for over the air reception the in the summer, but now that winter has set in with some reason what the reception with this little antenna isn't adequate. What I would like is to get both PBS stations pointing some new antenna halfway between like I was doing with the little antenna pictured above. According to antennaweb.org the reception of these two PBS stations from my location near Tower and and Smoky Hill was as follows.

uhf KRMA-DT 6.1 PBS DENVER, CO 270° 23.7 18
* blue

* violet
vhf KBDI-DT 12.1 PBS BROOMFIELD, CO 267° 38.5 13
violet

So what would you suggest for a new antenna I could buy that will get both these PBS stations consistently with one antenna direction point ? The major networks are no problem pointing the antenna between these two PBS stations so that's all I want. Your suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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post #8026 of 8473 Old 01-20-2012, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TC AVS View Post

If I'm not mistaken, the tower that CPT-12 will occupy is undergoing structural reinforcement to accommodate the addition of their antenna. This likely has been part of the holdup to them moving their translator system at an earlier time.

I have it from a legitimate source that KBDI CPT-12 hopes to have their Boulder translator operating on digital channel 48 from the Marshall Road/Cherryvale site "in about 6-weeks."

Currently, both Denver-area public television stations operate translators atop Williams Village student-residential towers near US36 and Baseline Road in Boulder. RMPBS is digital channel 24, and CPT-12 is analog channel 11.
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post #8027 of 8473 Old 01-20-2012, 04:30 PM
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So what would you suggest for a new antenna I could buy that will get both these PBS stations consistently with one antenna direction point ?

Quincy Avenue end of Smoky Hill Road here. Unless you're right at the base of that shallow hill that rises just west of South Telluride Street, TVFool says you should have line of sight to every broadcast tower in the foothills. "Line of sight" at our distance means good, strong signals from every station, including KRMA and KBDI. I'm thinking the antenna amplifier itself is probably the culprit, as too much boost is worse than not enough in digital TV reception. The amp is probably noisy as well, which will cause more reception issues.

I'd recommend a good all-channel (7-69) antenna – RCA ANT-751, AntennaCraft HBU22, Winegard HD-7694 – without an amplifier, because you shouldn't need one to feed one or two tuners from a decent antenna like these. (My attic setup has no amp, feeds three tuners, and provides a consistent 90/100 signal for channel 6 and a consistent 92/100 signal for channel 12.) All three antennas are available online for maybe $50 or so, shipping included. The ANT-751 and HBU22 are available at some local electronics stores and home centers, but you'll probably get a better price online, even with shipping.
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post #8028 of 8473 Old 01-20-2012, 09:18 PM
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(My attic setup has no amp, feeds three tuners, and provides a consistent 90/100 signal for channel 6 and a consistent 92/100 signal for channel 12.)

Thanks
I hope it will work for me as well is it has worked in your attic. I ordered the antenna Winegard HD7694P from Amazon.
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post #8029 of 8473 Old 01-21-2012, 05:00 PM
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I ordered the antenna Winegard HD7694P from Amazon.

That model has made a lot of people happy. You should obtain reliable reception, too, as long as you avoid aiming it through brick, stucco, concrete or anything metal, such as duct work, a radiant barrier or foil-backed insulation. Tile roofs aren't ideal, either, but I don't recall seeing any in that area. Good luck!
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post #8030 of 8473 Old 01-27-2012, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

The FCC is still allowing digital translators to move around, including city of license.

But for KTSC, filing for a translator is pretty easy. Just file for a UHF fill-in translator. As long as the contour of the fill-in translator is restrained within the contour of the main channel 8 signal, it's perfectly legal.

See here, KOAA-42 and a fill-in translator they have received a permit for on channel 47: http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.p...-104.860833333

- Trip

Trip, what this seems to indicate is that Fremont County isn't a primary concern for RMPBS.

Looking through the old database shows an RMPBS translator for the folks in western Fremont County at Coaldale, which serves several thousand people. But the main population node in eastern Fremont Co., with about 30,000 people between Canon City, Florence and Penrose remains unserved.

To our west, Chaffee County rates an RMPBS translator at Salida. Smaller towns in southern Colorado such as Aguilar, LaVeta and others also have RMPBS translators planned or operating.

Adding a fill-in KTSC translator for Canon City, etc. shouldn't be that tough as we're well within the theoretical 36 dB contour, even though we suffer extreme shadowing, particularly Canon City.

I'm sorry, after reviewing RMPBS ownership of other translators in southern Colorado, I can only conclude we here in eastern Fremont County don't rate in the eyes of RMPBS.

I have to return to my original premise, RMPBS, NOT ONE DOLLAR FROM ME!!

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post #8031 of 8473 Old 01-30-2012, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by iowegian3 View Post

Looking through the old database shows an RMPBS translator for the folks in western Fremont County at Coaldale, which serves several thousand people. But the main population node in eastern Fremont Co., with about 30,000 people between Canon City, Florence and Penrose remains unserved.

Based on TVfool both Florence and Penrose have set top antenna levels of signal from the main transmitter on Cheyenne Mountain. It's just Canon City proper that has the problem. Of course Canon City is the biggest of the three.

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post #8032 of 8473 Old 02-05-2012, 08:21 PM
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I haven't watched the the local NBC affiliate, KUSA in a long time but I was appalled at how much they compressed their broadcast of the Super Bowl.
Static shots were fine. On fast movement, though, the macro blocking was terrible. Doesn't sattelite allocate more bandwidth to imporatant sports broadcasts, then take if back when it's over. Evidently KUSA values their sub-channels more than their audience. Over the air HD is apparently over.
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post #8033 of 8473 Old 02-06-2012, 07:56 AM
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It was pretty nasty. I can't imagine many people would have missed the weather loop for 4 hours during the game, or the other useless BS on their sub channels...
Considering the size of the viewing audience and the market share for the SB, one would think giving people the best PQ should have been important to them...
But noooo!

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post #8034 of 8473 Old 02-06-2012, 12:13 PM
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I haven't watched the the local NBC affiliate, KUSA in a long time but I was appalled at how much they compressed their broadcast of the Super Bowl.
Static shots were fine. On fast movement, though, the macro blocking was terrible. Doesn't sattelite allocate more bandwidth to imporatant sports broadcasts, then take if back when it's over. Evidently KUSA values their sub-channels more than their audience. Over the air HD is apparently over.

I didn't see any macro blocking of the game OTA. Based on your comment about satellite bandwidth, were you watching via Dish or Direct?
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post #8035 of 8473 Old 02-06-2012, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by GE AVS View Post

I didn't see any macro blocking of the game OTA. Based on your comment about satellite bandwidth, were you watching via Dish or Direct?

Well, the comment about subchannels (plural) would seem to indicate that they didn't watch it OTA since KUSA only has the weather loop plus mobile. They need to indicate the provider (OTA is only OTA, OTA) before they can be taken seriously. I do have to note that based on rabbitears KUSA is running fewer Mbps than KOAA, which I watched on DirecTV (I wasn't home).

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post #8036 of 8473 Old 02-07-2012, 05:21 PM
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Team AVS:

I spoke with a gentleman today who lives at the intersection of W 2nd Place and Orchard Street in Golden, due east of where the westbound 6th Avenue on-ramp connects to westbound I-70. He is a ham operator, and has a short tower in his backyard. He would like to pick up KRMA-TV off of Mt. Morrison, and would like suggestions on an antenna setup whereby he could get Mt. Morrison and Lookout Mountain signals.

Longley-Rice mapping shows that he is in a convergence of zones that indicate indoor desktop antennas likely are not an option, but rooftop, or backyard tower, height gives him a fair chance. He has a good understanding of antennae in general.

Suggestions that could be passed on to this gentleman?
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post #8037 of 8473 Old 02-07-2012, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by GE AVS View Post

I didn't see any macro blocking of the game OTA. Based on your comment about satellite bandwidth, were you watching via Dish or Direct?

I was watching OTA. Maybe macro blocking is the wrong word, micro blocking might be closer. I was viewing the game on my PC monitor with a tuner card and 1080x1920 resolution from about two feet. At this range, every defect is very visible. Any movement and the picture would break up severely. I first noticed this with KRMA which has had the same phenomenon at different times as they played with their bit-rate. NBC, CBS and ABC have always had better pictures than KRMA but KUSA has taken the lead in poor quality.

I was only referring to satellite bandwidth from what I've read about both Dish and Direct allocating more bandwidth to a channel when they want to give the viewer the best possible picture.

I don't keep track of the number of sub-channels the locals are broadcasting. It is apparent, though, that the 'HD' channel keeps getting further away from the 19.4 Mbps possible. Leno always looks worse than Letterman.

Mobile can now take up to 6Mbps, the weather loop adding to the loss. The numbers don't matter. Such picture break-up used to be minimal. Now it's major. As 'ppasteur' said, you'd think PQ would be important to them.

Evidently not.
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post #8038 of 8473 Old 02-07-2012, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnty View Post

It is apparent, though, that the 'HD' channel keeps getting further away from the 19.4 Mbps possible.

HD can never be 19.4 Mbps as that is the total bitrate of the OTA ATSC mux. The most that HD can be is in the 17-17.5 Mbps area.

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post #8039 of 8473 Old 02-08-2012, 11:10 AM
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I was watching OTA. Maybe macro blocking is the wrong word, micro blocking might be closer. I was viewing the game on my PC monitor with a tuner card and 1080x1920 resolution from about two feet. At this range, every defect is very visible. Any movement and the picture would break up severely.

What you are describing was most likely not a problem originating at KUSA - again, I observed no problems OTA on my recent vintage TVs (both low end and high end TVs using either powered rabbit ears or an attic antenna and in a signal challenged area). However, it is a common problem with tuner cards, DTV converter boxes and older HD TVs. Having personally observed the pixilation (macro blocking) problems with various devices through the years, it is almost always associated with one of the described above peripheral devices and older HD TVs. And it is almost always more evident on a 1080i broadcast such as KUSA's broadcast.

What appears to be the problem is twofold - an apparent lack of both hardware capability and software decoding/transcoding in the tuner device and possibly the computer processing if one is viewing that way. Remember that 1080i must be converted from interlace to progressive scan (and possibly upconverted to 1080p) at some point for display on a flatscreen device, including computers. It is observationally very apparent that some peripheral tuners do not do a very good job making this conversion. This could be both a hardware and software algorithm issue. Note: for a DTV converter for use on a older CRT TV, the 1080i or 720p broadcast must be downconverted to 480i which doesn't always happen very cleanly either. Another factor is the performance of the tuner relative to signal disruptions from low signal level, electrical noise, multipath, etc. Again, the quality of the hardware and software can make a huge difference as to what the viewer actually sees.
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post #8040 of 8473 Old 02-08-2012, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by GE AVS View Post

However, it is a common problem with tuner cards, DTV converter boxes and older HD TVs. Having personally observed the pixilation (macro blocking) problems with various devices through the years, it is almost always associated with one of the described above peripheral devices and older HD TVs.

I disagree 100%. Macroblocking is not something that is caused in playback. It is a result of lack of bits to fully describe the 16x16 block in question, at the encoding stage. In other words, it is also called bitstarving, or being bitstarved.

You cannot, under any circumstances, bitstarve playback. Sure, there can be playback issues with computers. I see it all the time with high bitrate H.264 feeds. But, never ever do the playback issues result in macroblocking.

Users with tuner cards can capture the program and I can guarantee that if the program has macroblocks, they are in the transmission. Proof of that is to view the captured file with a program that allows single frame viewing and frame captures. If macroblocking was a playback issue, due to lack of CPU power etc., there would not be an issue if one were to freezeframe the video. But, the macroblocking will not go away upon a freezeframe and said macroblocking can then be saved as a JPG or PNG, whatever image file.

I, and many others, have provided samples of bad local station encodings in various threads on AVS.

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