Denver, CO - OTA - Page 287 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
 6Likes
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-09-2015, 04:04 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick313 View Post
I haven't noticed any issues, and I'm no expert, but I have a few thoughts:

1. Are you using any sort of amplification? If so, it could be that KMGH is overloading the tuner. I would try disconnecting the amplifier and see if that makes a difference.

2. Since KMGH is broadcast on two different RF channels (7 and 17) with the same virtual channel numbers, that may confuse some tuners. If your TV has the ability to scan for a specific station, you might try scanning for channel 7 or channel 17 by itself. If you can't receive channel 7 for some reason, it's likely that you will be able to receive channel 17 or vice versa. They both broadcast the same content, so you won't be missing anything either way.

3. I assume that you are using an antenna that is optimized for both VHF and UHF reception. If not, then I would switch to an antenna that is optimized for both since Denver has multiple VHF stations.

Hope some of this helps. Have a great day!
Thanks for the suggestions.
I do have an amplifier (see below).
Unfortunately I cannot scan for individual channels.
My antenna says that it is a VHF/UHF/FM/Digital antenna so I don't think that is an issue.


I disconnected the amp and still cannot pick up KMGH on my DTV. However, I also have an analog TV with a digital converter box connected to the same antenna and now interestingly KMGH comes in. It is at a much lower signal strength (66) than KUSA (88) or any of the others broadcasting from Lookout Mountain. I also can see other stations on this TV that are not detected by my DTV. Is it possible that my DTV is ignoring signals below a certain strength level? Another anomaly here is that the analog TV picks up CPT12 (Colorado public tv) with a signal strength in the 80s but the DTV doesn't get it all. I have rescanned several times and always get the same channels on my DTV. Neither 7 or 17 are registered.
Maybe my 6 year old DTV tuner is just not sensitive enough.


I appreciate your comments.
rbsfinav is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-09-2015, 05:06 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmar View Post
When you say you get KUSA, do you get it on 9.1 or do you get it on 9.4? The reason I ask is that if you are trying to receive KUSA or KMGH on a UHF only antenna you're going to have inconsistant results, since their main signals are on VHF frequencies. However, KUSA also broadcasts their main program on KTVD's UHF signal using 9.4 as the virtual channel. KTVD's UHF signal is a high power signal so it should be easy to receive. KMGH also broadcasts on UHF using KZCO's UHF signal, but KZCO is a low power station, which may be more difficult to pick up. Also, they use the same virtual channel numbers, so when you receive 7.1 you may not know whether you are getting the VHF signal or the UHF signal, depending on how your particular tuner deals with duplicate virtual channel numbers.

Anyway, from Fort Collins I haven't seen any significant issues with KMGH's signal (according to my logs they had a little bit of a signal drop yesterday, and that has been the worst problem they've had in a really long time), and I have an automatic process monitoring all TV channels in Denver and Cheyenne (and occasionally other stations that might pop up via DX reception) 24 hours a day.

Note of course that their VHF antenna is made up of multiple antennas pointing in different directions, so there is the possibility that I may never observe a problem that is caused by an antenna issue, but everything else in the chain is common to what I receive.

Again, if you're antenna isn't designed for VHF reception then you're going to have issues, and even if you are receiving KUSA's VHF signal with a UHF antenna, the fact that you can't receive KMGH the same way may have nothing to do with KMGH, but has everything to do with the fact that an antenna's reception outside its designed bandwidth can vary hugely over fairly small differences in frequency.


Thanks for responding.
My antenna is capable of receiving UHF/VHF/FM/Digital so I don't think that is my problem. I used to receive KMG (7.1, 7.2, 7.4) with no problems up until a few months ago.
On my DTV I am receiving KUSA on 9.4. I also have an analog TV with a digital converter that receives KUSA on 9.1 through 9.4. KUSA 9.4 is at a signal strength of 88 while, as you indicated, 9.1 through 9.3 are at a lower signal strength (66). My DTV does not show signal strength.


At the suggestion of another member I disconnected my amplifier and now the analog set receives KMGH 7.1, 7.2 and 7.4 (I think) at a signal strength of 66 but they show up as KMGH 82-1, Azteca 82-2, and LAFF TV 82-3 even though they are displayed sequentially between channels 6 and 9.


After many rescans my DTV does not register any of them. Interestingly my analog set also receives many other stations that my DTV does pick up. Several of these stations have relatively low signal strengths (60s) but KBDI (PBS channel 12) has a strength in the 80s yet my DTV doesn't pick it up.
The DTV is 6 years old so maybe the tuner is just wearing out, if that's possible.


Thanks for your comments.
rbsfinav is offline  
Old 08-10-2015, 04:37 PM
Advanced Member
 
jsmar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 600
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbsfinav View Post
Thanks for responding.
My antenna is capable of receiving UHF/VHF/FM/Digital so I don't think that is my problem. I used to receive KMG (7.1, 7.2, 7.4) with no problems up until a few months ago.
On my DTV I am receiving KUSA on 9.4. I also have an analog TV with a digital converter that receives KUSA on 9.1 through 9.4. KUSA 9.4 is at a signal strength of 88 while, as you indicated, 9.1 through 9.3 are at a lower signal strength (66). My DTV does not show signal strength.


At the suggestion of another member I disconnected my amplifier and now the analog set receives KMGH 7.1, 7.2 and 7.4 (I think) at a signal strength of 66 but they show up as KMGH 82-1, Azteca 82-2, and LAFF TV 82-3 even though they are displayed sequentially between channels 6 and 9.

After many rescans my DTV does not register any of them. Interestingly my analog set also receives many other stations that my DTV does pick up. Several of these stations have relatively low signal strengths (60s) but KBDI (PBS channel 12) has a strength in the 80s yet my DTV doesn't pick it up.
The DTV is 6 years old so maybe the tuner is just wearing out, if that's possible.


Thanks for your comments.
I don't think it is possible for a tuner to "wear out", but it could certainly be damaged by either a power surge, lightning strike, or even a static discharge. But I doubt any of those are what are causing your problems.

I also doubt that the amplifier was causing a signal overload on KMGH. That was more of an issue with older equipment, whereas your equipment, although "old" for the digital tuner age, could probably handle significant signal strength (note I am not saying the issue is definitely not due to signal overload).

If removing the amp helped, my theory is that the amp wasn't very good in the first place. There are many bad amps out there, which tend to boost the signal, but add more noise or distortion at the same time, which damages the signal rather than helping, especially for digital.

In most cases, I don't recommend a distribution amplifier be used. It's much better to use a quality antenna pre-amp installed right at the antenna, which preserves the signal at the point of reception and boosts it enough for good distribution. You can choose an appropriate version depending on how many passive splitters you need after the preamp. Again, a low quality pre-amp will hurt more than it helps. An antenna pre-amp is especially helpful if there is a long run of coax from the antenna to the TV (which is typically the case with an outdoor antenna).

Since you're reception changed, it most likely is due to something having changed at your location, or between your location and the broadcast antenna. Older digital tuners were highly susceptible to multipath distortion, i.e. the signal coming from mulitple paths, due to reflection off of other things. Even if you have a clear line of sight to Lookout Mountain, you could still be affected by this. Newer generation digital tuners are a lot better at handling multipath distortion.

So, any new tall buildings erected nearby? New houses that block your line of sight to Lookout Mountain? Trees in your line of sight (particularly close to the antenna, i.e. your yard or a neighbors yard) grow bigger over the last few years?

Another possibility is connection or even coax degeneration over time. Especially for the outdoor connections (since you say your antenna is installed outdoors). In particular moisture can get into connections if they aren't properly weather sealed.

Yet another possibility is antenna damage. If your antenna is a true UHF/VHF antenna, the VHF component may have longer elements that could be damaged in high wind. Are you sure you still have all your antenna elements?

I will also note that some unscrupulous antenna manufacturers may market an antenna designed for UHF reception as UHF/VHF if it has any sensitivity at all in the VHF range. Do you actually have some documentation regarding antenna gain in the VHF (high VHF in particular) range? What antenna do you have?

Also, can you share more about your installation, i.e. besides antenna model, things like how long the coax run is, what type of coax was used, what if any splitters are in the signal path, what kind of distribution amp were you using, etc.

On another note, if your digital converter box is using 82 as the major channel number for your KMGH subchannels, that is an indication that it is receiving both the KMGH signal and the KZCO signal, and it is choosing to put one of them in the 82 range to resolve the conflict of the duplicate channel numbers. It's not clear why there isn't another set at 7.1, etc. Some tuners don't handle duplicate channel numbers well at all.
jsmar is offline  
Old 08-27-2015, 10:16 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 0
KMGH Problem Solved

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmar View Post
I don't think it is possible for a tuner to "wear out", but it could certainly be damaged by either a power surge, lightning strike, or even a static discharge. But I doubt any of those are what are causing your problems.

I also doubt that the amplifier was causing a signal overload on KMGH. That was more of an issue with older equipment, whereas your equipment, although "old" for the digital tuner age, could probably handle significant signal strength (note I am not saying the issue is definitely not due to signal overload).

If removing the amp helped, my theory is that the amp wasn't very good in the first place. There are many bad amps out there, which tend to boost the signal, but add more noise or distortion at the same time, which damages the signal rather than helping, especially for digital.

In most cases, I don't recommend a distribution amplifier be used. It's much better to use a quality antenna pre-amp installed right at the antenna, which preserves the signal at the point of reception and boosts it enough for good distribution. You can choose an appropriate version depending on how many passive splitters you need after the preamp. Again, a low quality pre-amp will hurt more than it helps. An antenna pre-amp is especially helpful if there is a long run of coax from the antenna to the TV (which is typically the case with an outdoor antenna).

Since you're reception changed, it most likely is due to something having changed at your location, or between your location and the broadcast antenna. Older digital tuners were highly susceptible to multipath distortion, i.e. the signal coming from mulitple paths, due to reflection off of other things. Even if you have a clear line of sight to Lookout Mountain, you could still be affected by this. Newer generation digital tuners are a lot better at handling multipath distortion.

So, any new tall buildings erected nearby? New houses that block your line of sight to Lookout Mountain? Trees in your line of sight (particularly close to the antenna, i.e. your yard or a neighbors yard) grow bigger over the last few years?

Another possibility is connection or even coax degeneration over time. Especially for the outdoor connections (since you say your antenna is installed outdoors). In particular moisture can get into connections if they aren't properly weather sealed.

Yet another possibility is antenna damage. If your antenna is a true UHF/VHF antenna, the VHF component may have longer elements that could be damaged in high wind. Are you sure you still have all your antenna elements?

I will also note that some unscrupulous antenna manufacturers may market an antenna designed for UHF reception as UHF/VHF if it has any sensitivity at all in the VHF range. Do you actually have some documentation regarding antenna gain in the VHF (high VHF in particular) range? What antenna do you have?

Also, can you share more about your installation, i.e. besides antenna model, things like how long the coax run is, what type of coax was used, what if any splitters are in the signal path, what kind of distribution amp were you using, etc.

On another note, if your digital converter box is using 82 as the major channel number for your KMGH subchannels, that is an indication that it is receiving both the KMGH signal and the KZCO signal, and it is choosing to put one of them in the 82 range to resolve the conflict of the duplicate channel numbers. It's not clear why there isn't another set at 7.1, etc. Some tuners don't handle duplicate channel numbers well at all.
Thanks for all of the suggestions and I apologize for taking so long to respond.
I found my problem:
When I looked at everything that I had installed I realized that all of my coax cable was RG6 with the exception of the run from a splitter to my main TV (the one I was having trouble with). That was RG59. I replaced that section of cable, making sure that the end connectors were in good shape and, Voila, I now receive around 65 channels instead of the 29 I was getting before. KMGH is coming in fine. Although the tuner on my TV shows 2 channels each for 7.1, .7.2, & 7.3. I can live with that. I just hide one of each.
Again, thanks for the help.
rbsfinav is offline  
Old 09-08-2015, 06:09 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 0
Scan can't find Get TV at 14.3 on KTFD

Scanned using MythTV, which always picked up Get TV on KTFD's 14.3 subchannel, but although KTFD-DT (14.1), Bounce TV (14.2)and Escape (14.4) are found, Get TV is not.

Did a w_scan to create a channels.conf file, and the section for KTFD looks like this:

KTFD-DT;(null):479000:M10:A:0:49:51=spa,52;51,52:0:0:1: 0:0:0
KTFD 14.2 Bounce;(null):479000:M10:A:0:65:68=eng;68:0:0:2:0: 0:0
GetTV ;(null):479000:M10:A:0:81:84=eng;84:0:1010:3:0:0:0
14-4 KTFD-DT;(null):479000:M10:A:0:97:100=eng;100:0:0:4:0:0: 0

The "1010" entry for 14.3 is different from the "0" entries in the ninth field, which I think specifies conditional access. Get TV has previously been transmitted in the clear. Anybody know what's going on? I can't even find a phone number for the station...

Jim McCauley
Fort Collins CO
James McCauley is offline  
Old 09-14-2015, 08:47 PM
Member
 
GE AVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Denver/Boulder
Posts: 153
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 10
KTVD 14.3 - No Problems in Denver Metro Area

Quote:
Originally Posted by James McCauley View Post
Scanned using MythTV, which always picked up Get TV on KTFD's 14.3 subchannel, but although KTFD-DT (14.1), Bounce TV (14.2)and Escape (14.4) are found, Get TV is not.

Did a w_scan to create a channels.conf file, and the section for KTFD looks like this:

KTFD-DT;(null):479000:M10:A:0:49:51=spa,52;51,52:0:0:1: 0:0:0
KTFD 14.2 Bounce;(null):479000:M10:A:0:65:68=eng;68:0:0:2:0: 0:0
GetTV ;(null):479000:M10:A:0:81:84=eng;84:0:1010:3:0:0:0
14-4 KTFD-DT;(null):479000:M10:A:0:97:100=eng;100:0:0:4:0:0: 0

The "1010" entry for 14.3 is different from the "0" entries in the ninth field, which I think specifies conditional access. Get TV has previously been transmitted in the clear. Anybody know what's going on? I can't even find a phone number for the station...

Jim McCauley
Fort Collins CO



Having no problems receiving OTA all subs of 14 including Get TV on 14.3 on several devices since before and after your post. Checked the transport stream data after your post and found that the coding for hiding the channel is configured correctly to display channel 14.3 and matches the configuration of the other three subs. Based on the data you provided, I suspect a corrupted data file in your Myth TV could be causing the problem. Perhaps a double rescan of your Myth TV software would resolve the problem (the first scan without an antenna connected which may clear the memory, second scan reprograms the memory).


KTFD is operated by Entravision. Their Denver telephone number is 303-832-0050.
http://www.entravision.com/tv/all-tv-stations/
GE AVS is offline  
Old 10-04-2015, 01:19 PM
Member
 
pgjensen's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Colorado
Posts: 162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Anyone else having issues with quality on FOX 31.1 in Aurora or elsewhere? I am getting bad reception, but I get excellent reception on every other channel. I've noticed this the past few months, but today it's really bad, and... Broncos.

I'm using a very large attic antenna hooked up to an HDHomeRun 4. I get the problems whether I'm using the HDHomeRun VIEW app or MythTV. My HDHomeRun has the 20150826 firmware.

Last edited by pgjensen; 10-04-2015 at 01:56 PM.
pgjensen is offline  
Old 01-16-2016, 10:00 PM
Senior Member
 
Phil T's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Littleton, CO
Posts: 338
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hello? Is this thing on?

Scanning OTA yesterday and noticed 2.3 Comet TV. I never saw anything about it listed anywhere so I was a little surprised. With a lot of folks "cutting the cord" surprised how dead it is here.
Phil T is offline  
Old 01-16-2016, 11:57 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Dan Hitchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 11,815
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2756 Post(s)
Liked: 1356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil T View Post
Hello? Is this thing on?

Scanning OTA yesterday and noticed 2.3 Comet TV. I never saw anything about it listed anywhere so I was a little surprised. With a lot of folks "cutting the cord" surprised how dead it is here.
The thing is that except for live local sports and some news, you can get most programming online. Or for me, sometimes I wait for the disc. Regular OTA broadcasting is fast becoming passe, especially in the US, and even cable and satellite providers are feeling the pinch. No wonder they're taking a snails pace for the ATSC 3.0 roll out (UHD broadcasting).

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
Dan Hitchman is online now  
Old 01-17-2016, 06:13 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Trip in VA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Alexandria, VA, US | Age: 27
Posts: 14,974
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked: 111
Send a message via AIM to Trip in VA Send a message via Yahoo to Trip in VA
ATSC 3.0 is flying through the standardization process as compared to the speed most other standards have taken. At the rate they're going, it will probably be finalized at the end of the year or beginning to middle of next year.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

Trip in VA is offline  
Old 01-18-2016, 08:10 AM
Member
 
Smoke Talker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked: 10
ATSC 3: What is it??

Regarding an earlier Post on KWGN 2.3, yes I was somewhat surprised to see the new channel. However, a different explanation was included with the Post.

Seems if what I read is correct, a new kind of ATSC will be soon rolled-out. What is it & will existing receivers be able to use it &/or will ATSC 3 be "backwards compatible" with existing receivers??
Smoke Talker is offline  
Old 01-18-2016, 09:50 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Dan Hitchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 11,815
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2756 Post(s)
Liked: 1356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke Talker View Post
Regarding an earlier Post on KWGN 2.3, yes I was somewhat surprised to see the new channel. However, a different explanation was included with the Post.

Seems if what I read is correct, a new kind of ATSC will be soon rolled-out. What is it & will existing receivers be able to use it &/or will ATSC 3 be "backwards compatible" with existing receivers??
ATSC 3.0 is built around the H.265 HEVC video codec, UHD 2160p broadcasting with HDR support, and some form of immersive audio standard in lossy form (the leading candidate appears to be Dolby and their AC-4 codec, though I'm not sure if broadcast Dolby Atmos would be exactly the same as the consumer Blu-ray version, only in lossy form). I'm going to assume that "normal" 1080i and 720p channels will continue being broadcast as they are, but a separate signal and channel will carry the UHD version. The 1080i or 720p broadcast would probably be derived from a down-conversion of the UHD resolution and high frame rate.

Once the ATSC 3.0 standard is ratified, OTA users will need a new decoder box. Just plug the antenna into that and run an HDMI cable to a receiver or directly into the TV. Satellite and cable providers will have to distribute new set top boxes.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

Last edited by Dan Hitchman; 01-18-2016 at 09:54 AM.
Dan Hitchman is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off