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post #8581 of 8599 Old 08-09-2015, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick313 View Post
I haven't noticed any issues, and I'm no expert, but I have a few thoughts:

1. Are you using any sort of amplification? If so, it could be that KMGH is overloading the tuner. I would try disconnecting the amplifier and see if that makes a difference.

2. Since KMGH is broadcast on two different RF channels (7 and 17) with the same virtual channel numbers, that may confuse some tuners. If your TV has the ability to scan for a specific station, you might try scanning for channel 7 or channel 17 by itself. If you can't receive channel 7 for some reason, it's likely that you will be able to receive channel 17 or vice versa. They both broadcast the same content, so you won't be missing anything either way.

3. I assume that you are using an antenna that is optimized for both VHF and UHF reception. If not, then I would switch to an antenna that is optimized for both since Denver has multiple VHF stations.

Hope some of this helps. Have a great day!
Thanks for the suggestions.
I do have an amplifier (see below).
Unfortunately I cannot scan for individual channels.
My antenna says that it is a VHF/UHF/FM/Digital antenna so I don't think that is an issue.


I disconnected the amp and still cannot pick up KMGH on my DTV. However, I also have an analog TV with a digital converter box connected to the same antenna and now interestingly KMGH comes in. It is at a much lower signal strength (66) than KUSA (88) or any of the others broadcasting from Lookout Mountain. I also can see other stations on this TV that are not detected by my DTV. Is it possible that my DTV is ignoring signals below a certain strength level? Another anomaly here is that the analog TV picks up CPT12 (Colorado public tv) with a signal strength in the 80s but the DTV doesn't get it all. I have rescanned several times and always get the same channels on my DTV. Neither 7 or 17 are registered.
Maybe my 6 year old DTV tuner is just not sensitive enough.


I appreciate your comments.
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post #8582 of 8599 Old 08-09-2015, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jsmar View Post
When you say you get KUSA, do you get it on 9.1 or do you get it on 9.4? The reason I ask is that if you are trying to receive KUSA or KMGH on a UHF only antenna you're going to have inconsistant results, since their main signals are on VHF frequencies. However, KUSA also broadcasts their main program on KTVD's UHF signal using 9.4 as the virtual channel. KTVD's UHF signal is a high power signal so it should be easy to receive. KMGH also broadcasts on UHF using KZCO's UHF signal, but KZCO is a low power station, which may be more difficult to pick up. Also, they use the same virtual channel numbers, so when you receive 7.1 you may not know whether you are getting the VHF signal or the UHF signal, depending on how your particular tuner deals with duplicate virtual channel numbers.

Anyway, from Fort Collins I haven't seen any significant issues with KMGH's signal (according to my logs they had a little bit of a signal drop yesterday, and that has been the worst problem they've had in a really long time), and I have an automatic process monitoring all TV channels in Denver and Cheyenne (and occasionally other stations that might pop up via DX reception) 24 hours a day.

Note of course that their VHF antenna is made up of multiple antennas pointing in different directions, so there is the possibility that I may never observe a problem that is caused by an antenna issue, but everything else in the chain is common to what I receive.

Again, if you're antenna isn't designed for VHF reception then you're going to have issues, and even if you are receiving KUSA's VHF signal with a UHF antenna, the fact that you can't receive KMGH the same way may have nothing to do with KMGH, but has everything to do with the fact that an antenna's reception outside its designed bandwidth can vary hugely over fairly small differences in frequency.


Thanks for responding.
My antenna is capable of receiving UHF/VHF/FM/Digital so I don't think that is my problem. I used to receive KMG (7.1, 7.2, 7.4) with no problems up until a few months ago.
On my DTV I am receiving KUSA on 9.4. I also have an analog TV with a digital converter that receives KUSA on 9.1 through 9.4. KUSA 9.4 is at a signal strength of 88 while, as you indicated, 9.1 through 9.3 are at a lower signal strength (66). My DTV does not show signal strength.


At the suggestion of another member I disconnected my amplifier and now the analog set receives KMGH 7.1, 7.2 and 7.4 (I think) at a signal strength of 66 but they show up as KMGH 82-1, Azteca 82-2, and LAFF TV 82-3 even though they are displayed sequentially between channels 6 and 9.


After many rescans my DTV does not register any of them. Interestingly my analog set also receives many other stations that my DTV does pick up. Several of these stations have relatively low signal strengths (60s) but KBDI (PBS channel 12) has a strength in the 80s yet my DTV doesn't pick it up.
The DTV is 6 years old so maybe the tuner is just wearing out, if that's possible.


Thanks for your comments.
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post #8583 of 8599 Old 08-10-2015, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rbsfinav View Post
Thanks for responding.
My antenna is capable of receiving UHF/VHF/FM/Digital so I don't think that is my problem. I used to receive KMG (7.1, 7.2, 7.4) with no problems up until a few months ago.
On my DTV I am receiving KUSA on 9.4. I also have an analog TV with a digital converter that receives KUSA on 9.1 through 9.4. KUSA 9.4 is at a signal strength of 88 while, as you indicated, 9.1 through 9.3 are at a lower signal strength (66). My DTV does not show signal strength.


At the suggestion of another member I disconnected my amplifier and now the analog set receives KMGH 7.1, 7.2 and 7.4 (I think) at a signal strength of 66 but they show up as KMGH 82-1, Azteca 82-2, and LAFF TV 82-3 even though they are displayed sequentially between channels 6 and 9.

After many rescans my DTV does not register any of them. Interestingly my analog set also receives many other stations that my DTV does pick up. Several of these stations have relatively low signal strengths (60s) but KBDI (PBS channel 12) has a strength in the 80s yet my DTV doesn't pick it up.
The DTV is 6 years old so maybe the tuner is just wearing out, if that's possible.


Thanks for your comments.
I don't think it is possible for a tuner to "wear out", but it could certainly be damaged by either a power surge, lightning strike, or even a static discharge. But I doubt any of those are what are causing your problems.

I also doubt that the amplifier was causing a signal overload on KMGH. That was more of an issue with older equipment, whereas your equipment, although "old" for the digital tuner age, could probably handle significant signal strength (note I am not saying the issue is definitely not due to signal overload).

If removing the amp helped, my theory is that the amp wasn't very good in the first place. There are many bad amps out there, which tend to boost the signal, but add more noise or distortion at the same time, which damages the signal rather than helping, especially for digital.

In most cases, I don't recommend a distribution amplifier be used. It's much better to use a quality antenna pre-amp installed right at the antenna, which preserves the signal at the point of reception and boosts it enough for good distribution. You can choose an appropriate version depending on how many passive splitters you need after the preamp. Again, a low quality pre-amp will hurt more than it helps. An antenna pre-amp is especially helpful if there is a long run of coax from the antenna to the TV (which is typically the case with an outdoor antenna).

Since you're reception changed, it most likely is due to something having changed at your location, or between your location and the broadcast antenna. Older digital tuners were highly susceptible to multipath distortion, i.e. the signal coming from mulitple paths, due to reflection off of other things. Even if you have a clear line of sight to Lookout Mountain, you could still be affected by this. Newer generation digital tuners are a lot better at handling multipath distortion.

So, any new tall buildings erected nearby? New houses that block your line of sight to Lookout Mountain? Trees in your line of sight (particularly close to the antenna, i.e. your yard or a neighbors yard) grow bigger over the last few years?

Another possibility is connection or even coax degeneration over time. Especially for the outdoor connections (since you say your antenna is installed outdoors). In particular moisture can get into connections if they aren't properly weather sealed.

Yet another possibility is antenna damage. If your antenna is a true UHF/VHF antenna, the VHF component may have longer elements that could be damaged in high wind. Are you sure you still have all your antenna elements?

I will also note that some unscrupulous antenna manufacturers may market an antenna designed for UHF reception as UHF/VHF if it has any sensitivity at all in the VHF range. Do you actually have some documentation regarding antenna gain in the VHF (high VHF in particular) range? What antenna do you have?

Also, can you share more about your installation, i.e. besides antenna model, things like how long the coax run is, what type of coax was used, what if any splitters are in the signal path, what kind of distribution amp were you using, etc.

On another note, if your digital converter box is using 82 as the major channel number for your KMGH subchannels, that is an indication that it is receiving both the KMGH signal and the KZCO signal, and it is choosing to put one of them in the 82 range to resolve the conflict of the duplicate channel numbers. It's not clear why there isn't another set at 7.1, etc. Some tuners don't handle duplicate channel numbers well at all.
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post #8584 of 8599 Old 08-27-2015, 09:16 AM
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KMGH Problem Solved

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmar View Post
I don't think it is possible for a tuner to "wear out", but it could certainly be damaged by either a power surge, lightning strike, or even a static discharge. But I doubt any of those are what are causing your problems.

I also doubt that the amplifier was causing a signal overload on KMGH. That was more of an issue with older equipment, whereas your equipment, although "old" for the digital tuner age, could probably handle significant signal strength (note I am not saying the issue is definitely not due to signal overload).

If removing the amp helped, my theory is that the amp wasn't very good in the first place. There are many bad amps out there, which tend to boost the signal, but add more noise or distortion at the same time, which damages the signal rather than helping, especially for digital.

In most cases, I don't recommend a distribution amplifier be used. It's much better to use a quality antenna pre-amp installed right at the antenna, which preserves the signal at the point of reception and boosts it enough for good distribution. You can choose an appropriate version depending on how many passive splitters you need after the preamp. Again, a low quality pre-amp will hurt more than it helps. An antenna pre-amp is especially helpful if there is a long run of coax from the antenna to the TV (which is typically the case with an outdoor antenna).

Since you're reception changed, it most likely is due to something having changed at your location, or between your location and the broadcast antenna. Older digital tuners were highly susceptible to multipath distortion, i.e. the signal coming from mulitple paths, due to reflection off of other things. Even if you have a clear line of sight to Lookout Mountain, you could still be affected by this. Newer generation digital tuners are a lot better at handling multipath distortion.

So, any new tall buildings erected nearby? New houses that block your line of sight to Lookout Mountain? Trees in your line of sight (particularly close to the antenna, i.e. your yard or a neighbors yard) grow bigger over the last few years?

Another possibility is connection or even coax degeneration over time. Especially for the outdoor connections (since you say your antenna is installed outdoors). In particular moisture can get into connections if they aren't properly weather sealed.

Yet another possibility is antenna damage. If your antenna is a true UHF/VHF antenna, the VHF component may have longer elements that could be damaged in high wind. Are you sure you still have all your antenna elements?

I will also note that some unscrupulous antenna manufacturers may market an antenna designed for UHF reception as UHF/VHF if it has any sensitivity at all in the VHF range. Do you actually have some documentation regarding antenna gain in the VHF (high VHF in particular) range? What antenna do you have?

Also, can you share more about your installation, i.e. besides antenna model, things like how long the coax run is, what type of coax was used, what if any splitters are in the signal path, what kind of distribution amp were you using, etc.

On another note, if your digital converter box is using 82 as the major channel number for your KMGH subchannels, that is an indication that it is receiving both the KMGH signal and the KZCO signal, and it is choosing to put one of them in the 82 range to resolve the conflict of the duplicate channel numbers. It's not clear why there isn't another set at 7.1, etc. Some tuners don't handle duplicate channel numbers well at all.
Thanks for all of the suggestions and I apologize for taking so long to respond.
I found my problem:
When I looked at everything that I had installed I realized that all of my coax cable was RG6 with the exception of the run from a splitter to my main TV (the one I was having trouble with). That was RG59. I replaced that section of cable, making sure that the end connectors were in good shape and, Voila, I now receive around 65 channels instead of the 29 I was getting before. KMGH is coming in fine. Although the tuner on my TV shows 2 channels each for 7.1, .7.2, & 7.3. I can live with that. I just hide one of each.
Again, thanks for the help.
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post #8585 of 8599 Old 09-08-2015, 05:09 PM
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Scan can't find Get TV at 14.3 on KTFD

Scanned using MythTV, which always picked up Get TV on KTFD's 14.3 subchannel, but although KTFD-DT (14.1), Bounce TV (14.2)and Escape (14.4) are found, Get TV is not.

Did a w_scan to create a channels.conf file, and the section for KTFD looks like this:

KTFD-DT;(null):479000:M10:A:0:49:51=spa,52;51,52:0:0:1: 0:0:0
KTFD 14.2 Bounce;(null):479000:M10:A:0:65:68=eng;68:0:0:2:0: 0:0
GetTV ;(null):479000:M10:A:0:81:84=eng;84:0:1010:3:0:0:0
14-4 KTFD-DT;(null):479000:M10:A:0:97:100=eng;100:0:0:4:0:0: 0

The "1010" entry for 14.3 is different from the "0" entries in the ninth field, which I think specifies conditional access. Get TV has previously been transmitted in the clear. Anybody know what's going on? I can't even find a phone number for the station...

Jim McCauley
Fort Collins CO
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post #8586 of 8599 Old 09-14-2015, 07:47 PM
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KTVD 14.3 - No Problems in Denver Metro Area

Quote:
Originally Posted by James McCauley View Post
Scanned using MythTV, which always picked up Get TV on KTFD's 14.3 subchannel, but although KTFD-DT (14.1), Bounce TV (14.2)and Escape (14.4) are found, Get TV is not.

Did a w_scan to create a channels.conf file, and the section for KTFD looks like this:

KTFD-DT;(null):479000:M10:A:0:49:51=spa,52;51,52:0:0:1: 0:0:0
KTFD 14.2 Bounce;(null):479000:M10:A:0:65:68=eng;68:0:0:2:0: 0:0
GetTV ;(null):479000:M10:A:0:81:84=eng;84:0:1010:3:0:0:0
14-4 KTFD-DT;(null):479000:M10:A:0:97:100=eng;100:0:0:4:0:0: 0

The "1010" entry for 14.3 is different from the "0" entries in the ninth field, which I think specifies conditional access. Get TV has previously been transmitted in the clear. Anybody know what's going on? I can't even find a phone number for the station...

Jim McCauley
Fort Collins CO



Having no problems receiving OTA all subs of 14 including Get TV on 14.3 on several devices since before and after your post. Checked the transport stream data after your post and found that the coding for hiding the channel is configured correctly to display channel 14.3 and matches the configuration of the other three subs. Based on the data you provided, I suspect a corrupted data file in your Myth TV could be causing the problem. Perhaps a double rescan of your Myth TV software would resolve the problem (the first scan without an antenna connected which may clear the memory, second scan reprograms the memory).


KTFD is operated by Entravision. Their Denver telephone number is 303-832-0050.
http://www.entravision.com/tv/all-tv-stations/
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post #8587 of 8599 Old 10-04-2015, 12:19 PM
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Anyone else having issues with quality on FOX 31.1 in Aurora or elsewhere? I am getting bad reception, but I get excellent reception on every other channel. I've noticed this the past few months, but today it's really bad, and... Broncos.

I'm using a very large attic antenna hooked up to an HDHomeRun 4. I get the problems whether I'm using the HDHomeRun VIEW app or MythTV. My HDHomeRun has the 20150826 firmware.

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post #8588 of 8599 Old 01-16-2016, 09:00 PM
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Hello? Is this thing on?

Scanning OTA yesterday and noticed 2.3 Comet TV. I never saw anything about it listed anywhere so I was a little surprised. With a lot of folks "cutting the cord" surprised how dead it is here.
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post #8589 of 8599 Old 01-16-2016, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Phil T View Post
Hello? Is this thing on?

Scanning OTA yesterday and noticed 2.3 Comet TV. I never saw anything about it listed anywhere so I was a little surprised. With a lot of folks "cutting the cord" surprised how dead it is here.
The thing is that except for live local sports and some news, you can get most programming online. Or for me, sometimes I wait for the disc. Regular OTA broadcasting is fast becoming passe, especially in the US, and even cable and satellite providers are feeling the pinch. No wonder they're taking a snails pace for the ATSC 3.0 roll out (UHD broadcasting).

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #8590 of 8599 Old 01-17-2016, 05:13 AM
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ATSC 3.0 is flying through the standardization process as compared to the speed most other standards have taken. At the rate they're going, it will probably be finalized at the end of the year or beginning to middle of next year.

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post #8591 of 8599 Old 01-18-2016, 07:10 AM
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ATSC 3: What is it??

Regarding an earlier Post on KWGN 2.3, yes I was somewhat surprised to see the new channel. However, a different explanation was included with the Post.

Seems if what I read is correct, a new kind of ATSC will be soon rolled-out. What is it & will existing receivers be able to use it &/or will ATSC 3 be "backwards compatible" with existing receivers??
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post #8592 of 8599 Old 01-18-2016, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Smoke Talker View Post
Regarding an earlier Post on KWGN 2.3, yes I was somewhat surprised to see the new channel. However, a different explanation was included with the Post.

Seems if what I read is correct, a new kind of ATSC will be soon rolled-out. What is it & will existing receivers be able to use it &/or will ATSC 3 be "backwards compatible" with existing receivers??
ATSC 3.0 is built around the H.265 HEVC video codec, UHD 2160p broadcasting with HDR support, and some form of immersive audio standard in lossy form (the leading candidate appears to be Dolby and their AC-4 codec, though I'm not sure if broadcast Dolby Atmos would be exactly the same as the consumer Blu-ray version, only in lossy form). I'm going to assume that "normal" 1080i and 720p channels will continue being broadcast as they are, but a separate signal and channel will carry the UHD version. The 1080i or 720p broadcast would probably be derived from a down-conversion of the UHD resolution and high frame rate.

Once the ATSC 3.0 standard is ratified, OTA users will need a new decoder box. Just plug the antenna into that and run an HDMI cable to a receiver or directly into the TV. Satellite and cable providers will have to distribute new set top boxes.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!

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post #8593 of 8599 Old 02-15-2016, 02:38 PM
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Time to cut the cord. I am in Castle Rock and literally no one in this community has an outdoor antenna. Looks like the association is militant. Maybe I'll try a large attic unit and see how it goes. But a little indoor unit to start just to test the waters. If there are any Castle Rock folks with experience please PM me.
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post #8594 of 8599 Old 02-15-2016, 03:51 PM
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Time to cut the cord. I am in Castle Rock and literally no one in this community has an outdoor antenna. Looks like the association is militant. Maybe I'll try a large attic unit and see how it goes. But a little indoor unit to start just to test the waters. If there are any Castle Rock folks with experience please PM me.
They cannot stop you from installing a roof top antenna due to FCC rules as long as it complies with local ordinances (ie, no huge mast with support wires, etc.).
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post #8595 of 8599 Old 03-22-2016, 11:01 AM
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I don't watch OTA TV much, but last night I noticed that I am no longer receiving KMGH-TV (7.1), KUSA-DT (9.1) or anything being broadcasted below channel 18.

Here is my TV Fool and I am using a Winegard HD7694P.

Any suggestions as to what I should try before I climb on the roof to check the antenna? Hopefully the problem is not on my end, but since no one is complaining, I fear it is on my end.

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post #8596 of 8599 Old 03-22-2016, 11:02 AM
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I was watching 9.1 this am for sure

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post #8597 of 8599 Old 03-22-2016, 11:17 AM
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Looks like the problem is with RF distribution amplifier. I don't know why all of a sudden I really need to turn up the gain to receive the lower channels. I have had it on the negative gain setting for years and now I have to turn it up significantly before any channel below 18 shows up.

Can someone suggest a quality RF distribution module? I split the antenna feed to multiple rooms/tvs.

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post #8598 of 8599 Old 03-31-2016, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mifronte View Post
Looks like the problem is with RF distribution amplifier. I don't know why all of a sudden I really need to turn up the gain to receive the lower channels. I have had it on the negative gain setting for years and now I have to turn it up significantly before any channel below 18 shows up.

Can someone suggest a quality RF distribution module? I split the antenna feed to multiple rooms/tvs.
I would suggest getting rid of the RF distribution module and installing a high quality antenna preamp as close to the antenna as possible. Then use a quality passive splitter down the line. It's better to preserve the quality of the signal right at the antenna (or as soon as the wire enters the house, if there is a very short run between the antenna and where it first enters the house). The antenna preamp can then boost the signal enough so that it can make long runs and be split multiple times.

Since you are splitting the signal multiple times, I would suggest the ChannelMaster 7777. There are better preamps, but they tend to get a lot more expensive for small gain.

Since power is provided to the antenna preamp over the coax, make sure that if it is more convenient to insert the power after any splitters that every splitter between the power insertion point and the antenna preamp is capable of passing DC voltage. Any splitter designed for home satellite dishes can do that. Note that many of them only support passing DC voltage from one particular output of the splitter to the input, so look for the appropriate markings if you decide to do this.
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post #8599 of 8599 Old 06-10-2016, 04:22 PM
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Boulder Antenna & Signal Issues

I'm located in Boulder, CO in the Foothills at about 6700 ft. I'm keen to dump DirecTV and have installed an Xtreme Signal 8-bay bowtie antenna on my roof. I have purchased a Tablo tuner (and returned it..poor sensitivity) and now have a SiliconDust HDHR network tuner which seems better, but a stronger signal is needed for recording than viewing. I have put an old analog Radio Shack amp on the antenna before the splitter which drives an LG TV and the SiliconDust Tuner. On the TV I receive 40-46 channels despite the hilly terrain and hills that would seem to block signals directly south and north. I have a clear view west from Frederick south to DIA. The TV fool analysis (link removed since this is my first post what nonsense) indicates that most of the channels of interest are South and SSE. For some reason I cannot fathom, my best reception with the Bowtie antenna is pointed directly EAST, really at the tower in Frederick/I-25! I just don't get it. Any ideas? Are signals being re-transmitted from there? TVFool does not suggest that.

Secondly, my channels of interest are arriving from the South in the High-VHF range. The bowtie has decent gain here (link removed]). Choosing one channel (19) the LG indicates a signal strength of 52-54 (whatever that means) and 100% quality. Changing the amplifier gain (or removing the amp entirely) makes no difference in signal strength...it is what it is. The signal strength is marginal for recording from the SiliconDust Tuner; sometimes I record a perfect image other times just a pixelated mess. So I'm on the digital "cliff". Any suggestions? I'd hate to invest in a monster Hi-VHF antenna for nothing. I suspect I have "issues" that I don't realize. I've ordered a new amp and splitter and cables to make the connections as most of my stuff dates from the analog era.
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