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post #901 of 8542 Old 05-04-2007, 02:11 PM
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It looks like our friend TotallyPreWired in Woodland Park is finally selling his house.
Some people will take pretty extreme measures in the pursuit of strong OTA signals.


http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=69268
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post #902 of 8542 Old 05-04-2007, 05:10 PM
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The editorial in the Post today is typical of the public's and media's low comprehension level regarding the transition to digital TV. I wrote the following letter to the editor of the Post. They probably won't print it or write any followup article, but at least I got the matter off of my chest.

Quote:


The editorial written by Jim Chamberlain titled Return of rabbit ears on today's TVs contained some misleading information which did nothing but contribute to the public's lack of knowledge about the transition to digital (and HD) TV. Mr. Chamberlain wrote, in relevant part: While some Denver TV stations broadcast in HD, three of the main ones - Channel 4 (CBS), Channel 7 (ABC) and Channel 9 (NBC) - do not, apparently because of a legal dispute over a new broadcasting antenna in Golden. It sounds as if the legal dispute may be about over, but the new antenna for HD will not be built for months or years.

The channels Mr. Chamberlain cites as not broadcasting in HD (high definition) have been broadcasting HD programming for years. In fact, Channel 9 (KUSA - NBC) was one of the first stations in the country to broadcast local newscasts in HD and I believe was the first station to have an HD camera in its traffic helicopter. The legal dispute is over and the new antenna (tower), which is currently under construction and planned to be completed sometime in mid-2008, will merely serve to increase signal coverage via full power transmitters, not enable HD broadcasts. That increased signal coverage will allow most viewers in the metro area to use rabbit ears for reception, a situation that does not exist today due to the temporary, low power transmitters that these stations currently operate atop Dominion Plaza in downtown Denver. Whether viewers are using rabbit ears currently or have larger antennas in their attics or outside, the fact remains that HD broadcasting is available to Denver area viewers.

The incorrect information Mr. Chamberlain provided should have either been edited from or footnoted by the Denver Post. As a result, many readers, including those that recently purchased a TV capable of displaying HD programming, may now believe that most of the major networks' HD programming is unavailable in Denver unless one subscribes to cable or satellite services.

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post #903 of 8542 Old 05-04-2007, 05:52 PM
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Nice job Mike.
Dominion Plaza, I didn't know they changed the name from Republic - thanks for that.
Did anybody see the full-page ad on the back page of the RMN today? It was for Comcast. They said:
Quote:


"Comcast wins the HD picture challenge. Satellite customers agree, HD looks better with Comcast."

I find that hard to believe. All reports I've seen/heard is OTA is best, Dish second, Directv third and Comcast last. Sure, no mention of OTA, but Cable over Sat - not likely!

They don't say how they conducted the challenge. Hmmmm?
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post #904 of 8542 Old 05-04-2007, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santellavision View Post

...

Channel Master 3021
Antennas Direct DB4
...

Longtime lurker, first time poster in this thread.

Would these work from southwest Longmont (Airport & Pike Rd). I would either mount it in the attic or my garage. Maybe a pre-amp? I currently have a Winegard GS-2200 - Amplified on the roof. Anything bigger will have to be mounted in the attic or garage.

Republic Plaza (RP) and Lookout are only 3-4 degrees apart from my location. I am currently getting signals from Lookout (digital and analog) with the Winegard, but digital 4, 7, and 9 is a no go. I don't know anything from RP would even be possible from the attic or garage, but it would be fun to just try.

Thanks for your inputs.

Still Learning
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post #905 of 8542 Old 05-04-2007, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santellavision View Post

Nice job Mike.
Dominion Plaza, I didn't know they changed the name from Republic - thanks for that.
Did anybody see the full-page ad on the back page of the RMN today? It was for Comcast. They said: "Comcast wins the HD picture challenge. Satellite customers agree, HD looks better with Comcast."
I find that hard to believe. All reports I've seen/heard is OTA is best, Dish second, Directv third and Comcast last. Sure, no mention of OTA, but Cable over Sat - not likely!

They don't say how they conducted the challenge. Hmmmm?

From what I understand Comcast delivers the full bit rate of the signal from the source for all HD channels. It is well discussed in other forums that DirecTV does not, something about HDlite. I don't know about DISH but was under the impression that for the national networks they do full bit-rate for some and not for others (largely the VOOM channels), and I have no idea what they do for their HD LIL.

As for OTA, it is no doubtedly the best because it is not processed several times converting it between different transmission standards. But I'm pretty sure any comparison was done between D*, E*, and Comcast, and OTA was not on the menu.

My take on the order of the list would be OTA, Comcast, DISH, and DirecTV. At the least, Comcast would be tied with DISH but certainly ahead of DirecTV; there is no HDLite on Comcast.
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post #906 of 8542 Old 05-04-2007, 09:09 PM
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The low power transmitters are on the Republic Plaza building, Dominion Plaza is a different building.
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post #907 of 8542 Old 05-05-2007, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
The low power transmitters are on the Republic Plaza building, Dominion Plaza is a different building.

Yeah, I knew that. I used to work in Dominion Plaza - one track mind I guess. The Post probably won't notice the mistake anyway!
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post #908 of 8542 Old 05-05-2007, 07:29 AM
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mifronte,

Maybe one of the other guys who lives out your way can chime in, but I probably wouldn't recomment those two antennas. You'll most likely need bigger, like a CM3023. Better long range reception. And I bet you'll also probably have to go roof mount. Any reason why you said you have to go attic or garage? Don't let HOA rules get in your way, law is on your side. They cannot stop you at all. WAF is different and jewelery works there.
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post #909 of 8542 Old 05-05-2007, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mifronte View Post

Longtime lurker, first time poster in this thread.

Would these work from southwest Longmont (Airport & Pike Rd). I would either mount it in the attic or my garage. Maybe a pre-amp? I currently have a Winegard GS-2200 - Amplified on the roof. Anything bigger will have to be mounted in the attic or garage.

Republic Plaza (RP) and Lookout are only 3-4 degrees apart from my location. I am currently getting signals from Lookout (digital and analog) with the Winegard, but digital 4, 7, and 9 is a no go. I don't know anything from RP would even be possible from the attic or garage, but it would be fun to just try.

Thanks for your inputs.

From my personal experience (although on the completely opposite end of the metro area from you), you would be hard-pressed to do better than the CM4228 for an antenna that will pull in signal from fringe distances.
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post #910 of 8542 Old 05-05-2007, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santellavision View Post

Nice job Mike.
Dominion Plaza, I didn't know they changed the name from Republic - thanks for that.
Did anybody see the full-page ad on the back page of the RMN today? It was for Comcast. They said:
I find that hard to believe. All reports I've seen/heard is OTA is best, Dish second, Directv third and Comcast last. Sure, no mention of OTA, but Cable over Sat - not likely!

They don't say how they conducted the challenge. Hmmmm?

Hmm I would like to know where you heard Comcast was last? Have you looked at posts in the HDTV programming forum? The overwhelming sentiment is that directv is by far the worst. Dish has some good HD channels some not as good. But comcast for the most part provides good bandwidth and resolution on all their HD channels.

Also if you read the post about this report in the HDTV programming topic they talk about how they conducted the test. It was done by a 3rd party and the testers didn't know what signal they were watching. It was also done here in Denver.
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post #911 of 8542 Old 05-05-2007, 10:06 AM
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I heard that Comcast was recompressing their signals. Some of the guys on this thread who have both Cable & Sat have said as much. Maybe they've changed that now. Do you have a link to the test, I'd like to read it.

I found the link.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=841935

An interesting quote was regarding if the Comcast feed was representative of all markets.
Quote:


A DirecTV spokesman questioned the validity of the results, noting there are several ways picture quality could be skewed: the equipment used, instructions given to subjects, the content chosen and whether the Comcast signal at the test location was representative of the cable operator's markets as whole.

I also as skeptical as they never mention where the test was conducted. Was it done at a Comcast facility with a direct feed or was it done at a random hotel with an average feed?
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post #912 of 8542 Old 05-05-2007, 10:59 AM
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If you go to www.comcast.com/hdchallenge and give them your name and email, they PROMISE not to mkt to you without your 'permission', they have a 2 page pdf report. Oddly enough the test was performed in Denver by Frank Magid Assoc, maybe you know them. I'd post it here but would probably be sued by Comcast (Deb is available now ?)
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post #913 of 8542 Old 05-05-2007, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jp9 View Post

If you go to www.comcast.com/hdchallenge and give them your name and email, they PROMISE not to mkt to you without your 'permission', they have a 2 page pdf report. Oddly enough the test was performed in Denver by Frank Magid Assoc, maybe you know them. I'd post it here but would probably be sued by Comcast (Deb is available now ?)

If the test was commissioned by Comcast the results have zero credibility. DirecTV or Dish could prove they have superior pictures by instructing a hired tester to prove that.

It's been said that statistics do not lie. It's the statisticians that do the lying.

As an aside, my brother has Comcast in Connecticut. I think his HD does indeed look better then HD (lite) I have seen from DirecTV where macroblocks that seem to jump around are clearly visible. But you really need to know what to look for to make a critical judgment.

Oxford CT is a long way from Denver.

--- CHAS

If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.
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post #914 of 8542 Old 05-05-2007, 02:02 PM
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Here's the graphs, they've been posted already. What they don't give is all the details. No mention of equipment used. What if they used an older Dish receiver vs. a state-of-the-art Comcast box? And where was test was conducted. Was it at Comcast Digital center with a direct feed etc. All that would effect the PQ.

I agree, if Dish wanted to pay for their own testing, they could skew the results with the above items.




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post #915 of 8542 Old 05-05-2007, 04:47 PM
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Thanks for the antenna recommendation. Look like I will need something big. My wife is the daughter of an architect and no amount of bribing will work because like she says "Ugly is ugly!".

Anyway, the HD channels (Fox & CW) from Lookout using the small Winegard GS-2200 looks so much better than my upscaling DVD player over HDMI!

Is that new tower done yet

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post #916 of 8542 Old 05-05-2007, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mifronte View Post

Thanks for the antenna recommendation. Look like I will need something big. My wife is the daughter of an architect and no amount of bribing will work because like she says "Ugly is ugly!".

Anyway, the HD channels (Fox & CW) from Lookout using the small Winegard GS-2200 looks so much better than my upscaling DVD player over HDMI!

Is that new tower done yet

You said earlier that you could mount an antenna in your attic. Is that possible? The WAF would have to be pretty good for something hidden in the attic. As long as you have a wood/shingle roof it should attenuate things too much. Once the new tower if up you could point it back to Lookout and be set forever.

John M
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post #917 of 8542 Old 05-05-2007, 09:56 PM
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My son just bought a townhouse in Castle Rock and moved in yesterday. What kind of OTA reception will he be able to get? Are the Springs stations reachable if the low power Denver stations aren't? Or should he just give up for now and get the HD locals when E* does his install next week?
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post #918 of 8542 Old 05-06-2007, 08:02 AM
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It depends on where you are in Castle Rock. I am close to the highest point in Castle Pines North and can receive the Republic Plaza stations with limited success with a roof mounted antenna. FOX and CW2 from Lookout usually come in pretty good with the antenna pointed at RP. If I turn the antenna towards the south, I can receive the NBC, CBS channels from Colorado Springs very well. I'm not sure about FOX and ABC from the Springs because I haven't tried it since last summer. Your son will surely need an outdoor antenna and should be able to find some OTA channels from one direction or the other.
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post #919 of 8542 Old 05-06-2007, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mifronte View Post

Thanks for the antenna recommendation. Look like I will need something big. My wife is the daughter of an architect and no amount of bribing will work because like she says "Ugly is ugly!".

Agreed, but how much time do you spend outside looking at your roof?

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post #920 of 8542 Old 05-06-2007, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by zimdba View Post

Agreed, but how much time do you spend outside looking at your roof?

A lot of time if you're Jetlag.
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post #921 of 8542 Old 05-06-2007, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mifronte View Post

Longtime lurker, first time poster in this thread.

Would these work from southwest Longmont (Airport & Pike Rd). I would either mount it in the attic or my garage. Maybe a pre-amp? I currently have a Winegard GS-2200 - Amplified on the roof. Anything bigger will have to be mounted in the attic or garage.

Republic Plaza (RP) and Lookout are only 3-4 degrees apart from my location. I am currently getting signals from Lookout (digital and analog) with the Winegard, but digital 4, 7, and 9 is a no go. I don't know anything from RP would even be possible from the attic or garage, but it would be fun to just try.

Thanks for your inputs.

I have first hand experience from that area (Just moved out to another place in Longmont). I lived West on Pike from Airport, in the group of houses directly South of Pike. I tried everything and got nothing from RP. (there is more than 3-4 degrees seperation LOM and RP from what I recall, LOM is about 180 degrees and RP is in the upper 160's degrees) That is not the problem. The problem is the Niwot Hill blocking RP. We are too close to it to see over it. It is the hill between Lookout Rd and CO52 as you head South out of Niwot. It travels ESE from there. The further East on Pike or North on Airport, the better chance you'll have.

I had the CM 4228 that you can see from Pike thru the small open space just West of Airport.

Good Luck!

# Matt
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post #922 of 8542 Old 05-06-2007, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwanthd View Post

It looks like our friend TotallyPreWired in Woodland Park is finally selling his house.
Some people will take pretty extreme measures in the pursuit of strong OTA signals.

Actually, you don't know how close you are to being correct!

I've been offline while I moved into a townhome in WP. The big 'D' caused this, and my house will be on the market in a matter of days. So, if anybody is looking to escape Denver PM me!

My best guesss is that I'm down to about 8,500', and from this location the Denver high power stations are probably a pipe dream. I should have a shot at the C/S stations, but I haven't got a decent antenna with me.

Also, if anybody is looking for a mid level Java GUI developer please PM me!
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post #923 of 8542 Old 05-06-2007, 07:00 PM
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Thanks Matt for the feedback.

I was afraid that ridge would be a problem. It is the only thing that I can see that would block an imaginary direct line of site downtown. I was able to pull in NBC once when I was mounting the antenna. I had placed it down to mount the pole (it is the same type used for satellite dishes). Unfortunately the location of the pole (highest point on the roof) was a couple of feet from where I had set the antenna down. Needless to say, that couple of feet now prevents me from receiving NBC from Republic Plaza (RP)

I decided not to move the mounting position because then I would had to figure out how to patch the holes where the mounting screws were located to ensure a water tight seal. Plus it was in December and I was freezing and just wanted to get inside.

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******************
My wife and I walk everyday and she is always looking up at the sky because she just loves the cloud formations and colors. So we look at the roof almost everyday. My wife to admire the cloud formations and colors, me to see if the latest wind had blown any shingles off and to admire my handy crooked run of the antenna cable on the roof.

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post #924 of 8542 Old 05-06-2007, 07:45 PM
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Thanks for the feedback, Iwanthd. My son lives off of South St about halfway up a hill on the east side of downtown Castle Rock, so he's probably a little lower and farther south than you. But it's good to know he has a chance for OTA. He has balconies that face both north and south, so getting an antenna outside is no problem, although getting it high enough might be.
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post #925 of 8542 Old 05-06-2007, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mifronte View Post

Longtime lurker, first time poster in this thread.

Would these work from southwest Longmont (Airport & Pike Rd). I would either mount it in the attic or my garage. Maybe a pre-amp? I currently have a Winegard GS-2200 - Amplified on the roof. Anything bigger will have to be mounted in the attic or garage.

Republic Plaza (RP) and Lookout are only 3-4 degrees apart from my location. I am currently getting signals from Lookout (digital and analog) with the Winegard, but digital 4, 7, and 9 is a no go. I don't know anything from RP would even be possible from the attic or garage, but it would be fun to just try.

Thanks for your inputs.

I am just north of you at Airport & Clover Basin. I would highly recommend a Channel Master 4228 antenna and also a Channel Master 7777 preamp pointed directly at Republic Plaza. I have tried several antenna configurations without success before using the CM 4228. The CM 4228 provided the highest signal on my DirecTV HD Tivo, but not enough to get a picture. Adding the CM 7777 preamp made all the difference! Now 4, 6, 7, 9, and 20 are solid. Also, 2 and 31 on Lookout are strong enough even though I'm pointed at Republic Plaza. I had tried cheaper preamps before, but they were all useless. This 4228 and 7777 combo works so well, the antenna only needs to be 15 feet off the ground. I had resisted buying this setup for over a year due to cost and not knowing whether it would work. Then I stumbled on them at a garage sale for only $10 and grabbed them immediately. (BTW, Republic Plaza is at 163 degrees and Lookout is at 189 degrees at my location.) Send me a back channel message if you want to talk further.

Jack
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post #926 of 8542 Old 05-06-2007, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santellavision View Post

This thing looks like something a Klingon would put up.


Woa Ho, that is an AntennasDirect 91XG, one of which I installed in my attic a couple of years ago in a final attempt to receive KMGH before they moved to RP. It actually is a great antenna, which borrowed its design concept from some popular European antennas.

Scott Regener, a frequent poster to the AVS antennas forum, wrote a nice, personal, review of the 91XG. In the past year or so, it was added to the charts at HDTV Primer .
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post #927 of 8542 Old 05-06-2007, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smuuth View Post

Another newpaper article about HDTV with only a very brief single reference to OTA. It's very sad.

Joyzelle Davis has consistently been a shill for the DBS providers and Comcast. I've emailed her in the past regarding her lack of consumer perspective in her articles. Oh well, she probably gets a lot of free lunches.
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post #928 of 8542 Old 05-07-2007, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighmike View Post

Thanks for the feedback, Iwanthd. My son lives off of South St about halfway up a hill on the east side of downtown Castle Rock, so he's probably a little lower and farther south than you. But it's good to know he has a chance for OTA. He has balconies that face both north and south, so getting an antenna outside is no problem, although getting it high enough might be.

I think I would try for Colorado Springs from that location.
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post #929 of 8542 Old 05-07-2007, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jab80503 View Post

I am just north of you at Airport & Clover Basin. I would highly recommend a Channel Master 4228 antenna and also a Channel Master 7777 preamp pointed directly at Republic Plaza. I have tried several antenna configurations without success before using the CM 4228. The CM 4228 provided the highest signal on my DirecTV HD Tivo, but not enough to get a picture. Adding the CM 7777 preamp made all the difference! Now 4, 6, 7, 9, and 20 are solid. Also, 2 and 31 on Lookout are strong enough even though I'm pointed at Republic Plaza. I had tried cheaper preamps before, but they were all useless. This 4228 and 7777 combo works so well, the antenna only needs to be 15 feet off the ground. I had resisted buying this setup for over a year due to cost and not knowing whether it would work. Then I stumbled on them at a garage sale for only $10 and grabbed them immediately. (BTW, Republic Plaza is at 163 degrees and Lookout is at 189 degrees at my location.) Send me a back channel message if you want to talk further.

Jack

So you are the one (two story next to Clover Basin) that helped me convince the boss (wife) to get that antenna. Thanks! (always intended to knock on the door and say hello).

I also could have had troubles w/ the 2 story home across the small openspace and above me sitting at 170 degrees that could have blocked my RP attempts. According to my compass, I had clear view at 163 between the houses. I never tried the pre-amp method.

Now to plan out the attempt this fall in Erie.

# Matt
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post #930 of 8542 Old 05-07-2007, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDJello View Post

From what I understand Comcast delivers the full bit rate of the signal from the source for all HD channels. It is well discussed in other forums that DirecTV does not, something about HDlite. I don't know about DISH but was under the impression that for the national networks they do full bit-rate for some and not for others (largely the VOOM channels), and I have no idea what they do for their HD LIL.

As for OTA, it is no doubtedly the best because it is not processed several times converting it between different transmission standards. But I'm pretty sure any comparison was done between D*, E*, and Comcast, and OTA was not on the menu.

My take on the order of the list would be OTA, Comcast, DISH, and DirecTV. At the least, Comcast would be tied with DISH but certainly ahead of DirecTV; there is no HDLite on Comcast.

I've had Dish HD since 12/2003 and am still using the same Dish receiver. When I got Dish HD I was convinced that the "Gold Standard" for HD was ESPN-HD on Dish as represented by live NFL games from indoor stadiums (e.g., Indy's dome).

Well over the past 3 years Dish has degraded the quality of their HD. I know they now have more HD channels per transponder, which accounts for the breakups, pixelization, freezes, etc. that now occur. But, I think there was even more done to degrad the signal. Watching an indoor NFL game live last fall on ESPN-HD was no longer the "Gold Standard". OTA NFL games on any network were superior in PQ to ESPN-HD.

I don't know how good Comcast or DirectTV HD PQ are, but OTA HD is definitely superior to the current Dish HD. I guess I'd be willing to give Comcast a look when Dish finally ends their MPEG2 HD transmissions. The new Dish HD package would cost me as much as would a Comcast HD package and Comcast includes all the HD channels I care about except HDNet Movies. Most of the new HD channels on Dish are just, IMHO, just garbage.
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