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post #991 of 8482 Old 05-29-2007, 10:14 PM
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It's funny... I 've yet to ever see ATSC HD look as good as the analog NHK Hi-Vision system demoed widely at the 1988 Consumer Electronics Show...
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post #992 of 8482 Old 05-31-2007, 10:58 AM
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Wow, it's obsolete before it even gets started!

NTSC RIP Aged 69 years

1940 - 2009


ATSC RIP Died during Gestation


--- CHAS

If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.
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post #993 of 8482 Old 05-31-2007, 07:54 PM
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Anybody noticing alittle unusual D* picture breakup this evening?

ScottPro
Conifer Mountain, CO
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post #994 of 8482 Old 06-01-2007, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post

It's funny... I 've yet to ever see ATSC HD look as good as the analog NHK Hi-Vision system demoed widely at the 1988 Consumer Electronics Show...

But wasn't that on a CRT display at a somewhat smaller size than the average HDTV of today? Just asking.
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post #995 of 8482 Old 06-01-2007, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by CEB II View Post

But wasn't that on a CRT display at a somewhat smaller size than the average HDTV of today? Just asking.

It was on a CRT, which meant it automatically looked better than most HD displays do today, but I'm comparing what I saw with ATSC on an equivalent sized CRT.
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post #996 of 8482 Old 06-03-2007, 09:08 AM
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Boy how things have quieted down. By the way has anybody spotted any cement trucks on the mountain yet?

Leonard
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post #997 of 8482 Old 06-03-2007, 01:16 PM
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Boy how things have quieted down. By the way has anybody spotted any cement trucks on the mountain yet?

Even at full bore, I suspect it will be several months yet before any concrete is called for on the mountain.
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post #998 of 8482 Old 06-03-2007, 04:05 PM
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Don't forget, from the LCG's point of view there is no reason to rush as long as they are on the air by the switch-over deadline, and frankly, if they didn't quite make that I doubt seriously the FCC would do anything anyway. I am sure the LCG is aware of that. The only reason to rush would be to get their signal up for the good of the public in the greater metropolitan area, and of course we already know that is very low on the priority list.

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post #999 of 8482 Old 06-03-2007, 06:05 PM
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I have a friend who is relocating to Denver from Grand Junction. He asked me the other day which TV provider I would recommend; I was at a loss. I used to be a big fan of E* but since they stopped my NY CBS feed, eliminated the free program data on the 811 and jacked their prices up I'm not exactly enamored any longer. He had standard cable and will be acquiring his first HDTV once he moves here so he has no commitments and no gear.

So my question to all of you is; if you were starting from scratch here in Denver who would you go with and what gear would you get? He did mention that he wants to be able to time shift, so that would really be the only requirement.

Actually he didn't say "time shift", instead he asked me what brand of "high definition VCR" he should buy. I had to set him straight on that one.
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post #1000 of 8482 Old 06-03-2007, 09:10 PM
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I can't speak for other services, but the D* HR20 started out with a lot of bugs, but in the last few months the software updates have really smoothed out the operation. I did not previously own a TiVo or DVR of any kind so I can't compare the HR20 to other brands, but I am happy with mine at the moment. Now if only D* will improve their picture quality when they get the new sat up and convert to MPEG4 for the nationals, all will be well. Of course the other consideration is programming. I have D* mostly because of the NFLST, so that influences my decision for services. YMMV.

John M
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post #1001 of 8482 Old 06-04-2007, 12:16 AM
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Posted by JMartinko
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Don't forget, from the LCG's point of view there is no reason to rush as long as they are on the air by the switch-over deadline, and frankly, if they didn't quite make that I doubt seriously the FCC would do anything anyway. I am sure the LCG is aware of that. The only reason to rush would be to get their signal up for the good of the public in the greater metropolitan area, and of course we already know that is very low on the priority list.

I think if you read the "Commission Acts on Requests Filed by 145 Television Stations Seeking Additional Time to Complete Construction of Their DTV Facilities" document dated May 18, 2007 of the FCC web site you'll find that KCNC, KMGH, and KTVD were granted six month construction deadlines and KRMA and KUSA were granted extensions 30 days beyond the effective date of amendments to Section 73.624d adopted in the Third Periodic Review proceeding. Only 4 stations, located in NV, NC, SC, and FL, were granted construction permit extensions through 2-17-09.

I think you're going to see the LCG stations on the air well before 2-17-09 and that our office pool is alive and well. Just my 2 cents.
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post #1002 of 8482 Old 06-04-2007, 03:13 AM
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I wouldn't be so sure.

If LCG construction "runs behind," what is the FCC going to do, yank the licenses of the local "big three" network affiliates when they can claim hardships that required federal legislation to resolve?

I think not, and further should a Democrat be sworn in as President in January, 2009, I wouldn't count on the Feb. 2009 date to stand at all.
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post #1003 of 8482 Old 06-04-2007, 06:24 AM
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Only if it is "fast tracked" - Somehow I don't think the Digital changeover will be at the top,of national matters at that time.

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

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post #1004 of 8482 Old 06-04-2007, 07:57 AM
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I'm afraid that we are not completely ready for the "Digital Transition", but also....we are never going to be fully ready, either.

We are just "as ready as we will ever be" though, since any attempt to delay the date will just result in even more procrastination. It's kinda like, when your kid first attempts to dive in the deep end of the pool and learn to swim. He's gonna keep putting it off, until someone throws him in....then, if he doesn't drown, he learns to swim and enjoys it.

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post #1005 of 8482 Old 06-04-2007, 10:47 AM
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I guess the bottom line is that no one really knows when LCG will complete construction, including them, but they probably have some timeline in place in order to schedule contractors, order equipment, etc.

I think we've all been somewhat guilty, including me, of being too pessimistic with a glass half empty outlook regarding the tower issue. While we were all complaining on this forum, LCG was quietly backdooring sCARE with a federal law. Right after that, the attitude on this forum brightened somewhat, but now it seems we're back to the negative, procrastination mode.

What I've learned from all of this so far is that our comments are fun to post and read but have little effect on reality. I know we all want to see the construction completed and full power transmitters on the air well before 2-17-09. I think we should monitor, as best as we can, the progress of LCG's construction efforts and see what bona fide conclusions we may draw from that. Perhaps folks like our friend from SLC, Ken, can give us some guidance on what needs to take place as construction proceeds and how much time it will take, based upon his experience at KSL.

I also think it's somewhat baseless to continue to think that the 2-17-09 analog shutdown won't happen. Even with a Democratic president, I don't think you're going to see Congress move that date within the month between swearing in and 2-17-09. Congress doesn't move that fast, analog TV's will be off the market, stations operating a full digital power will want their electric bills reduced via analog cutoff, etc.

I know it's hard to think on a positive note, but I'm keeping my office pool date of 5-21-08.
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post #1006 of 8482 Old 06-04-2007, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by milehighmike View Post

I also think it's somewhat baseless to continue to think that the 2-17-09 analog shutdown won't happen. Even with a Democratic president, I don't think you're going to see Congress move that date within the month between swearing in and 2-17-09.

I agree. At most you'll see them make some token gesture to beef up the subsidy program and leave it at that.

My cable provider is Netflix
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post #1007 of 8482 Old 06-04-2007, 03:19 PM
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There's been a lot of talk about not being ready for the DTV transition. In Washington it's all about petty political bickering. But things are falling into place. The converter program is now moving froward. TV's must come equipped with digital tuners. Legacy TV's must be identified as such. Broadcasters, many that are ready now, want this to be over. Consumers are becoming aware. This thing is slowly building momentum.

The FCC has set expirations on most the construction permits although they have granted some extensions (not past the DTV date) for special situations like yours in Denver. Otherwise, they will not listen to pleas of hardship and they are firm about everyone being ready in 2009; anyone who cannot flip the switch then simply will not have a license to broadcast.

Since the legalities are now settled, I think your Denver tower will be completed in time. LCG does not a difficult schedule if they did sufficient planning and ordered long lead time items. Your stations might even make the switch easier then those that must juggle equipment at existing facilities.

--- CHAS

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post #1008 of 8482 Old 06-04-2007, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by oxothuk View Post

I agree. At most you'll see them make some token gesture to beef up the subsidy program and leave it at that.

???

John M
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post #1009 of 8482 Old 06-04-2007, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post

I wouldn't be so sure.

If LCG construction "runs behind," what is the FCC going to do, yank the licenses of the local "big three" network affiliates when they can claim hardships that required federal legislation to resolve?

I think not, and further should a Democrat be sworn in as President in January, 2009, I wouldn't count on the Feb. 2009 date to stand at all.

Yes that is EXACTLY what will happen - if you can't broadcast digitally on Febuary 17, 2009 - you will no longer have a liscense to broadcast. Pitiful as it is with their lowpower Republic Plaza installation, the Denver stations ARE at least broadcasting something, even if it isn't at "full power" yet. At most, they might lose their "digital protection" coverage. Some stations will just be going dark, claiming financial hardship is very difficult to get approval for now.

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post #1010 of 8482 Old 06-04-2007, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Scooper View Post

Yes that is EXACTLY what will happen - if you can't broadcast digitally on Febuary 17, 2009 - you will no longer have a liscense to broadcast. Pitiful as it is with their lowpower Republic Plaza installation, the Denver stations ARE at least broadcasting something, even if it isn't at "full power" yet. At most, they might lose their "digital protection" coverage. Some stations will just be going dark, claiming financial hardship is very difficult to get approval for now.

I think you're living in fantasyland.

I think that not only will a number of NTSC stations allowed to keep broadcasting under "emergency waivers," as I mentioned the Feb. 2009 date will itself likely become soft once the majority of Americans find out analog broadcasting will be going away; polls have consistently shown that a vast majority of Americans still aren't aware of the cutover, and let's be honest, neither brodcasters nor, amazingly enough, TV manufacturers have made any real attempt to inform them.

(If you were a TV maker, wouldn't you be running a big ad campaign to let people know they should upgrade?)
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post #1011 of 8482 Old 06-05-2007, 12:22 AM
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(If you were a TV maker, wouldn't you be running a big ad campaign to let people know they should upgrade?)

I don't think TV manufacturers have much to do with the analog shutoff. They are not domestic industries that set any kind of policy and they are not proactive in this scenario but rather reactive. With the cutoff still some 21 months away, the foreign manufacturers see no rush to get into fire sale mode. How many non-HDTV's do you see in the BB, CC, Ultimate Sunday Post flyers? There's a few SDTV's and virtually no analog TV's featured. Do you see HDTV ads in the Sunday Post for Super Bowl Sunday in August?

I respect your opinion but I don't think folks like Scooper, HIPAR, I, and others with similar opinions are living in fantasyland. You need to read the Third Periodic Review of the Commission's Rules and Policies Affecting the Conversion to Digital Television dated May 18, 2007 on the FCC website. Stations have already lost applications for construction permit extensions, interference protection, etc. Financial hardship rules have been tighened up and several stations have already declared they will go dark on 2-17-09.

I don't believe there will be any "emergency waivers". And just what would constitute an emergency? Perhaps a constant blizzard on Lookout for the summers of 2007 and 2008? Ain't gonna happen.
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post #1012 of 8482 Old 06-05-2007, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post

(If you were a TV maker, wouldn't you be running a big ad campaign to let people know they should upgrade?)

If I were having trouble selling TVs I would.

Nobody seems to have this problem; new TVs continue to sell very well. Ironically, the manufacturers are all complaining about too much competition from too many brands with prices dropping to levels where no one is realizing a sufficient profit.

This 'education' phase is all about the best timing for it to commence. Now, it's a petty Democrat vs Republican issue. When the coupons and converters become available next year, a major portion of the over-the-air viewing public will pull their heads out of the sand.

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post #1013 of 8482 Old 06-05-2007, 09:59 AM
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Even most of the SDTVs being sold now fall into one of 2 classes -

1. "Firesale" TV's without the ATSC tuner (and labeled as such)
2. SDTVs with 480i displays and ATSC tuners, sometimes even QAM tuners for unencrypted digital cable (pretty much limited to the local broadcast stations). I have a 14 inch one of these (no QAM, but it does have ATSC/NTSC tuners), purchased at Best Buy less then 2 months ago.

I'll predict that 6 months from now - you won't be able to find a TV with a screen larger than 13 inches without an ATSC tuner. The small handhelds may still be out, but they will be going away.

And yes - I believe that NTSC broadcasting will be going away on Feb 17, 2009. Personally, I'll still be using NTSC inside the house over my own modulated channels, but all OTA will be ATSC only. Also, non-digital cable may still be using NTSC for quite some time. It would not surprise me to find local channels going to many cable subscribers to be downconverted ATSC broadcasts, remodulated to NTSC for the cable plant.

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post #1014 of 8482 Old 06-05-2007, 10:40 PM
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Deb's trip to Washington D.C.

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post #1015 of 8482 Old 06-06-2007, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawood View Post

Deb's trip to Washington D.C.

Perfect. Hot Air goes to the city of hot air.

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post #1016 of 8482 Old 06-06-2007, 11:13 AM
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I wonder why this hasn't made it on the sCARE website yet - www.mountainlake.org. The devastation, downed power lines, and burned buildings, was unbelievable! NOT
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post #1017 of 8482 Old 06-06-2007, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMartinko View Post

I can't speak for other services, but the D* HR20 started out with a lot of bugs, but in the last few months the software updates have really smoothed out the operation. I did not previously own a TiVo or DVR of any kind so I can't compare the HR20 to other brands, but I am happy with mine at the moment. Now if only D* will improve their picture quality when they get the new sat up and convert to MPEG4 for the nationals, all will be well. Of course the other consideration is programming. I have D* mostly because of the NFLST, so that influences my decision for services. YMMV.

And that really is the point. Each service has its own HD DVR. I personally am happy with my DISH 622, although the tower situation limits what I can receive on it OTA here in Ft Collins. The Comcast folks have a Motorola DVR that doesn't seem to please anybody much. I've never used one. I expect that all three boxes will handle OTA just fine, so the difference is in programming from the services. Lots of threads around on that topic. If you want simple OTA HD recording, your options are pretty limited right now.
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post #1018 of 8482 Old 06-06-2007, 01:58 PM
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I didn't think that the Comcast box did OTA???

Mike
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post #1019 of 8482 Old 06-06-2007, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighmike View Post

I wonder why this hasn't made it on the sCARE website yet - www.mountainlake.org.


Simple. The tower collapsed as designed. It debunks what CARE has put forth over the last few years. CARE maybe dumb, but they aren't stupid.

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post #1020 of 8482 Old 06-06-2007, 05:16 PM
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I didn't think that the Comcast box did OTA???

The Comcast box does not do OTA. But Comcast offers all of the local HD signals (which is most of the DTV channels) anyway and if you get their box you get those channels at no additional charge.
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