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Old 06-15-2009, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Rules View Post

Are you just looking for the DC stations

No, I want them all most particularly the Baltimore stations and WNVT that I had before WNVC came back on the air. I already have the DC stations, though some are (apparently) too strong even without amplification for the nearest tuners. I say that because my strongest stations are not showing up that way on my SS meters. Joblo attributed this to the meters not really measuring SS, but rather the digital error rate.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:35 AM
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What happened? Everybody sort out their problems?

What are the FCC rules regarding interference between one station and others? I'm having big problems with a nearby station WNVC that just returned to the air last Friday. Don't they have to do something to mitigate the effect their transmissions are having on other stations?
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Rules View Post

Unfortunately, with digital VHF being more subject to multipath, you will need a more directional antenna to continue receiving 7 & 9 from DC reliably. The 4228 just doesn't tolerate multipath well.

Your cheapest option is to augment the 4228 with the Antennacraft Y5-7-13. Combine the 2 antennas with a "UVSJ". If you desire a 1 antenna solution, the Winegard 7694P is the best bang for the buck.


Thanks for the advice. I thought VHF was supposed to be better I used to have a deep fringe yagi but it was too directional and wouldn't allow me to pick up Balt & DC without rotation, which is impractical with multiple sets viewing different channels simultaneously, hence the 4228. I printed out the Antennacraft info to look at but I wish there was a way to test it out before buying...

I have a 7777 pre amp which if I remember correctly has both UHF and VHF inputs. Can I skip the UVSJ and just plug the new antenna in there?

Thanks!
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

The CM 4228 gain has a notch for VHF 8 and poorer gain for VHF 7 than 9 to 13. It is a UHF antenna with some performance for upper VHF, but the performance for VHF 7 is only a little better than rabbit ears. Your TVFool chart shows you 54 miles from WJLA. At that range, you should have been prepared to get a upper VHF antenna all along. Check the VHF performance for UHF antennas chart at HDTVPrimer for the CM4228: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html. According to the page on the old CM 4228, you can boost the VHF gain a little by tying the two screens together: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html.

Thanks for the links!
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtimes View Post

I have a 7777 pre amp which if I remember correctly has both UHF and VHF inputs. Can I skip the UVSJ and just plug the new antenna in there?

Thanks!

Yeah, just be sure to crack the 7777 open and flip the switch that's inside. By default, I believe the 7777 is set for a combined VHF/UHF input only.
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Old 06-16-2009, 10:32 AM
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There is now an article in the washington post about the DTV issues, linking to this thread:
Quote:
Goodbye, Analog TV. Hello, Digital TV.

It's over. Except it's not.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fas...lo_digita.html

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Old 06-16-2009, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKrell View Post

What happened? Everybody sort out their problems?

What are the FCC rules regarding interference between one station and others? I'm having big problems with a nearby station WNVC that just returned to the air last Friday. Don't they have to do something to mitigate the effect their transmissions are having on other stations?

The FCC rules on interference deal with co-channel or adjacent channel spacing between stations. Your problem, if I have kept track through the sheer volume of posts here and other asvforum threads, is that you are located close to the WNVC tower, but the signal is overloading your distribution amp. The solutions to that are either to have no broadcast towers at all or place them miles away from any residential neighborhoods.

WNVC MHz 56 is at 160 kW which is not that strong a UHF signal compared to the 1000 kW maximum allowed for UHF digital or the 5000 kW that analog WHUT 32 was at. WNVC is on UHF 24, one up from the low power WDDN-LP Daystar 23 in DC with no nearby station operating on UHF 25. It is not a frequency interference problem, just a signal overload problem. A notch or suppression filter on the antenna feed to the amp should do the trick.

As for the thread quieting down, fatigue and the work week are probably the reason. I have been experimenting and hope that a CM 4221 with the backscreen removed will get me WHAG-DT 25 while also pulling in WNVT 30, WNVC, the DC and Baltimore UHF stations in different directions. My Winegard upper VHF antenna has pulled in WJZ 13 at 43 miles but only at night with a lot of dropouts and no luck at all on getting a lock for WBAL 11. 5 kW for upper VHF is not nearly enough for a station that was operating at 316 kW analog.

I also did some testing with rabbit ears and they were not adequate to get WJLA 7 and WUSA 9 reliably now at 16 miles. Hence the flood of complaints from both the pre-trans digital viewers who got UHF antennas with rabbit ears AND the analog viewers with rabbit ears who are not close to NW DC. Interestingly the CM 4221 did pull in WJLA and WUSA when I tried it, but that was a short test.
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Old 06-16-2009, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by compuguy1088 View Post

There is now an article in the washington post about the DTV issues, linking to this thread:

Thanks for noticing that blog post! FYI, one of my colleagues, Kim Hart, is working on a piece about WJLA and WUSA's problems and welcomes reports from people who have been dealing with them. You can reach her at hartk@washpost.com.
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Old 06-16-2009, 01:59 PM
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From reading the comments to Rob's Faster Forward I saw that WJLA has a page addressing some of the issues at
http://cfc.wjla.com/external.cfm?p=dtv_vhf
One item of interest there:
Quote:


For the past 10 years, WJLA has operated their digital signals in the UHF (ultra high frequency) television band on channel 39. To provide a better signal to you, we returned to channel 7 when we made the FINAL transition to all-digital television. Channel 7 is in the VHF (very high frequency) television band and will provide a stronger, better signal to your home.

So, they thought we would be getting a better signal when they went from UHF to VHF, but apparently that does not seem to be the case at the moment.
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Old 06-16-2009, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUOrangeman View Post

Cox NoVA updates:

Added MPTDT (767), MPT2 (812), and ?MPT3? (22, SD simulcast of MPT as far as I can tell ... I thought this was s'posed to be V-ME)
Added WPXW Ion (715), displacing Palladia to 769
Added WHUT (32, I guess)

-SUO

So for those of you who now receive both MPT and WETA is there any consensus as to which has better picture quality? I record The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer every night and I'm wondering if I should be recording the MPT version of the WETA version? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
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Old 06-16-2009, 02:44 PM
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Thanks for all your comments, which are spot on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

A notch or suppression filter on the antenna feed to the amp should do the trick.

Fully agree! Only problem; I can't find a fixed notch filter except what appear to be very expensive custom-built OEM filters, and this tunable one for $70. Short of designing and building one myself, are there any suppliers out there that have more affordable filters?
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Old 06-16-2009, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nottenst View Post

From reading the comments to Rob's Faster Forward I saw that WJLA has a page addressing some of the issues at
http://cfc.wjla.com/external.cfm?p=dtv_vhf
One item of interest there:So, they thought we would be getting a better signal when they went from UHF to VHF, but apparently that does not seem to be the case at the moment.

From reading that link, they apparently don't understand that for most people, the move from uhf to vhf has resulted in a WEAKER signal. When it was on uhf, ALL of our atsc tuners with indoor antennae were able to pick it up. Now it is restricted to quite a bit of fiddling/angling of the rabbit ears to get a WEAKER signal. One of our tv's cannot even get 9 because of its location. The only good thing is if your able to get wusa, it seems to have less multipath issues.
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Old 06-16-2009, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nottenst View Post

One item of interest there:So, they thought we would be getting a better signal when they went from UHF to VHF, but apparently that does not seem to be the case at the moment.

Right. But to be fair, I'm one of the people who suggested that the move to VHF would only increase their coverage--the FCC's post-transition coverage predictions all said as much. So this current situation has led to some... [ahem] awkward interactions with a few readers.

- R
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:02 PM
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Unlike most folks I seem to be doing pretty good with my reception of WJLA (99%) and WUSA (97%). I had to scan/add them individually on both my DISH 612 and 722.

This is from a post I wrote back in March 2004. Everything is the same except for my DISH receivers:

Quote:


I'm using an Radio Shack VU-120XR, w/ rotator, no preamp. Tried it in the attic but signal wasn't consistent. I bought all the equipment (~$150) and had Fairfax Antenna (~$200) put it up on my roof ( 40' to the peak & 45 degree pitch). It's on a tripod with about 15' of mast and three guy wires. Used RG6QS. Everthing is WELL grounded. Feeding a Dish 6000.

After a couple of years I added a Radio Shack 15-1196, 1 in to 2 Bi Directional Amp, to split the signal to a second Dish 6000. A preamp did not improve my signal, but this amp did.

I'm getting outstanding reception from D.C. (35mi) and Baltimore (60mi). I think a lot of my success is due to being several hundred feet above sea level.

I went with the UHF/VHF setup playing the odds that some of the stations will revert back to their VHF signals for digital when everything shakes out.

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Old 06-16-2009, 03:04 PM
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Really, how much of the WJLA & WUSA problem is people trying to pick up VHF channels with UHF antennas?
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Old 06-16-2009, 04:08 PM
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How did WBAL end up with only 5kw of power and why did the FCC think that they had to protect ch. 12 from Martinsburg, WV when that channel is just a duplicate of ch. 34?

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Old 06-16-2009, 04:39 PM
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My experience so far: Lost WJLA and WUSA completely on an indoor UHF/VHF antenna (all locals came in fine before the transition via UHF). For my attic mount Radio Shack 15-2160 UHF-only antenna, I lost all Baltimore channels with the exception of WUTB24. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense that I would lose WMARDT and WBFFDT, since both are still broadcasting on UHF. Can get sporadic WUSA9 on this antenna, but no WJLA. I know this part of the equation is on me for having the UHF-only antenna at this point, but the rest of my story doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:00 PM
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So has anyone gotten any real explanation on wusa drop out. Are they reduced power, or using a temporary transmitter at the moment? Because I can get abc just fine, but the tv doesn't detect anything at channel 9.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

The FCC rules on interference deal with co-channel or adjacent channel spacing between stations. Your problem, if I have kept track through the sheer volume of posts here and other asvforum threads, is that you are located close to the WNVC tower, but the signal is overloading your distribution amp. The solutions to that are either to have no broadcast towers at all or place them miles away from any residential neighborhoods.

WNVC MHz 56 is at 160 kW which is not that strong a UHF signal compared to the 1000 kW maximum allowed for UHF digital or the 5000 kW that analog WHUT 32 was at. WNVC is on UHF 24, one up from the low power WDDN-LP Daystar 23 in DC with no nearby station operating on UHF 25. It is not a frequency interference problem, just a signal overload problem. A notch or suppression filter on the antenna feed to the amp should do the trick.

As for the thread quieting down, fatigue and the work week are probably the reason. I have been experimenting and hope that a CM 4221 with the backscreen removed will get me WHAG-DT 25 while also pulling in WNVT 30, WNVC, the DC and Baltimore UHF stations in different directions. My Winegard upper VHF antenna has pulled in WJZ 13 at 43 miles but only at night with a lot of dropouts and no luck at all on getting a lock for WBAL 11. 5 kW for upper VHF is not nearly enough for a station that was operating at 316 kW analog.

I also did some testing with rabbit ears and they were not adequate to get WJLA 7 and WUSA 9 reliably now at 16 miles. Hence the flood of complaints from both the pre-trans digital viewers who got UHF antennas with rabbit ears AND the analog viewers with rabbit ears who are not close to NW DC. Interestingly the CM 4221 did pull in WJLA and WUSA when I tried it, but that was a short test.

It took me 2 hours to adjust my father's rabbit ears 4 miles from the towers up Connecticut Avenue in Kensington. 7 and 9 are almost impossible to capture while picking up 5, 7, 20 and 26. Sad day for old folks. My 95 year old father who lives alone kept asking me "Why would they make it worse"?

Art Neill
a.k.a.
Mr. HiFi
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dg28 View Post

My experience so far: Lost WJLA and WUSA completely on an indoor UHF/VHF antenna (all locals came in fine before the transition via UHF). For my attic mount Radio Shack 15-2160 UHF-only antenna, I lost all Baltimore channels with the exception of WUTB24. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense that I would lose WMARDT and WBFFDT, since both are still broadcasting on UHF. Can get sporadic WUSA9 on this antenna, but no WJLA. I know this part of the equation is on me for having the UHF-only antenna at this point, but the rest of my story doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Did you lose WBFF and WNUV? They didn't change anything...

Mark
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdviewer25 View Post

How did WBAL end up with only 5kw of power and why did the FCC think that they had to protect ch. 12 from Martinsburg, WV when that channel is just a duplicate of ch. 34?

WBAL-DT 11 is protecting WVPT-DT PBS 51 on RF 11 in Harrisonburg. There is also WHTM-DT ABC 27 on RF 10 in Harrisburg, PA their 5 kW application shows 0.1% population interference with. WPXW-DT Ion 60 on RF 12 is not a concern for WBAL-DT. I exchanged emails with the station engineer with WBAL over the weekend, he is well aware of the problems with the low power.

WUSA-DT 9 is at their post-transition allotment of 12.6 kW. They have to protect WGAL-DT NBC 8 in Lancaster, PA (0.03% interference) and WBPH-DT 60 on RF 9 in Bethelem, but WBPH-DT shows 0.0% interference in their 12.6 kW application. I suspect that WUSA-DT should be able to be alloted a higher power level without great difficulty, if WUSA asks. But how much more, I don't know.

WJZ-DT 13 is having to protect WWPX-DT - next channel down. However, I just found in a CDBS search that WJZ-DT filed today a engineering STA to operate at 27.5 kW from their current omni-directional antenna! The STA would cause 1.46% interference with WWPX. This would ONLY be in place until their new directional antenna was installed in 3 weeks. Which means I would likely lose WJZ-DT 13 when the new antenna is in place as the power in my direction in Sterling would be around 10 kW - what WJZ-DT has now.

WJZ-DT Engineering STA application: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=25455.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmw63 View Post

Really, how much of the WJLA & WUSA problem is people trying to pick up VHF channels with UHF antennas?

i,ll bet alot,i live in woodbine md about 35 miles out,7 and 9 were good before but are a little better now.i have a small rca antenna on the roof,7,9 11,13 are tricky with indoor antennaa around here.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

WBAL-DT 11 is protecting WVPT-DT PBS 51 on RF 11 in Harrisonburg. There is also WHTM-DT ABC 27 on RF 10 in Harrisburg, PA their 5 kW application shows 0.1% population interference with. WPXW-DT Ion 60 on RF 12 is not a concern for WBAL-DT. I exchanged emails with the station engineer with WBAL over the weekend, he is well aware of the problems with the low power.

I didn't know about those PA channels. My next question would be Why don't they have a directional signal with more power going to the south.

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Old 06-16-2009, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

WUSA-DT 9 is at their post-transition allotment of 12.6 kW. They have to protect WGAL-DT NBC 8 in Lancaster, PA (0.03% interference) and WBPH-DT 60 on RF 9 in Bethelem, but WBPH-DT shows 0.0% interference in their 12.6 kW application. I suspect that WUSA-DT should be able to be alloted a higher power level without great difficulty, if WUSA asks. But how much more, I don't know.

The 12.6KW allegedly shows WBPH-DT with the 0.05% interference. It was fiercely contested as well. Alas, we would love the max, in fact a nice 6dB would be even better but alas!
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Old 06-16-2009, 06:58 PM
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FYI, WBAL is going off the air tonight after Conan O'Brien:

http://www.wbaltv.com/news/19771981/detail.html

I assume by "no service interruption" they mean non-OTA viewers :-)

I'm writing them another note about the volume being so high on WBAL-DT as well, anyone else wanna join me?
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fmw63 View Post

Really, how much of the WJLA & WUSA problem is people trying to pick up VHF channels with UHF antennas?

Well, I thought that was my problem. But then I ran my UHF antenna that on the roof with a rotor to the DTV and all of the channels are coming in at great signal strength with the UHF antenna. Even 7, 9, 11, and 13 are strong. So, I can't get them with a table top VHF/UHF antenna inside the house, but the UHF antenna on the roof is picking them up. The roof antenna is a Channel Master 4228 (which is the 8-bay bowtie) and I have a rotor. Aimed at Baltimore, the Baltimore stations are rock solid tonight and I'm getting the DC stations off of my FiOS TV service, so I'm back in business.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:17 PM
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Hey, folks!

I spent a good part of the day up on my tower. I replaced my 5' center pipe with a 12' pipe. This allowed me to move my rotor further down the tower, while raising the CM3020 to about 7' above the tower (it was less than 2' before). My CM3020 is now at about 45' height. I also received a call from a friend of mine, who has come across a 50' tower that the owner wants removed ASAP. Can you say 90-100'.

WTTG-DT and WJZ-DT are now 5x5. WJLA-DT is almost glitch free and I now get WBFF-DT and WDCA-DT, but I've completely lost WUSA-DT. I still don't get WMAR-DT or WRC-DT.

While I was trying to find the optimum height for my setup, I did notice that there is a very small window where I can get a 25% quality for WUSA-DT. It appears that ATSC isn't as forgiving as NTSC, when it comes to height. If I peaked for D.C., I lost Baltimore. OH, the fun!

Wish I had a portable spectrum analyzer.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:22 PM
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I assume by "no service interruption" they mean non-OTA viewers :-)

Or those that are sleeping.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:35 PM
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I helped another elderly lady with her converter outside of Mercersburg with her Magnavox I was able to get 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 11, 13, 15, 20, 21, 24, 25, 27, 30, 31, 33, 45, 49, 50, 54, 60, 66, 67, 68. I was afraid WWPX on RF 12 would have caused problems with WBAL, but it is just as strong on the meter as WJZ and WWPX. Even WMAR on RF 38 comes in fine with no problems from WJAL on RF 39 at 4 miles with LOS. This is one person that has acutally gained channels. Setup is an older Winegard antenna and amp with rotor on a 30' tower. Granted she is on a slight hill, but still has two mountains blocking LOS. I think there is hope yet.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:55 PM
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I could not get WUSA 9.1 on a couple sets with UHF/VHF indoor antenna until this morning. I have to go over my Moms house and rescan her set as she has no 9.1 either. I also had no sound from 7.1 on a Toshiba set for about a week and now the sound is back.

Surprisingly I had no problem getting 7.1 or 9.1 with an indoor UHF only antenna. I am close to stations as I live inside DC. I have lost Baltimore 11.1 NBC and 13.1 CBS.

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