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Old 08-27-2009, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

WJLA has filed an STA to increase power from 30 kW to 52 kW. We have to see what the FCC says.

- Trip

I hope they let them give it a try.
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Old 08-28-2009, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

WJLA has filed an STA to increase power from 30 kW to 52 kW. We have to see what the FCC says.

...and where will that leave WUSA with its comparatively puny 12.6 kW ERP? If the FCC approves the 52 kW for ACC, channel 9 will be some 6 dB down relative to its VHF competitor and tower mate.

Of course, this presumes that ``power density'' is a significant factor in reception as the filing asserts.
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Old 08-28-2009, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by dewster1977 View Post

I hope they let them give it a try.

+1 here, a resounding +1. I also hope that if they do, we know in advance when it will happen so we can assist with before/after data for WJLA I think they'll let them try it, personally.

Any word on how it's been going with WBAL's STA? Anybody in range of VHF 12 having issues with 11 being more powerful?
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Old 08-28-2009, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by djp952 View Post

Anybody in range of VHF 12 having issues with 11 being more powerful?

WBAL has no affect on VHF 12 from my location in Arlington.
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Old 08-28-2009, 06:28 AM
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I can't see WUSA being able to get any kind of power increase on channel 9. WBPH up there is just too constrictive.

If I was Gannett, I'd look at channel 14 very hard.

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Old 08-28-2009, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

I can't see WUSA being able to get any kind of power increase on channel 9. WBPH up there is just too constrictive.

True, but if it turns out that the interference rules on VHF have been overestimated, which really seems to be the case from everything I've read to date, a power increase might still be possible. If all these STAs from VHF channels are working out, wouldn't the rules end up getting changed?

I'm still definately in favor of these stations trying it out to see what happens. The longer they wait the less acceptable these kinds of things will be to the public. Before the fall season starts is ideal

Didn't all of this happen before in the 1930s or something? I vaguely recall reading about VHF propogation being drastically underestimated originally, too.

It will work out at some point. I'm glad stations like WBAL and WJLA are taking the initiative, since in the end it will help the other stations.

edit: I hate to admit this, but I'm also in favor of the FCC playing favorites when it makes sense to do so. WPBH preventing WUSA from reaching it's designated viewers doesn't make sense. It does to fans of WPBH, I'm sure, but let's consider the greater good here. WUSA is a major network affiliate, I can't believe that WPBH's viewership even scratches the surface of what WUSA's is.
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Old 08-28-2009, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by djp952 View Post

...
I hate to admit this, but I'm also in favor of the FCC playing favorites when it makes sense to do so. WPBH preventing WUSA from reaching it's designated viewers doesn't make sense. It does to fans of WPBH, I'm sure, but let's consider the greater good here. WUSA is a major network affiliate, I can't believe that WPBH's viewership even scratches the surface of what WUSA's is.

Is programming content at all a consideration when the FCC evaluates a facility upgrade or channel change?

The WWAZ/Fond du Lac channel change request cites the Hispanic audience that will be served by relocating the site to the Milwaukee antenna farm. Likewise, the WLS/Chicago channel change notes coverage of the Gay Pride Parade and Mexican Independence Day as examples of its commitment to local programming.

Bringing this matter of content closer to Washington, if programming factors in at all, doesn't WETA have a much stronger case for moving to channel 51 than does WWPX?
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Old 08-28-2009, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by djp952 View Post

Didn't all of this happen before in the 1930s or something? I vaguely recall reading about VHF propogation being drastically underestimated originally, too.

It will work out at some point. I'm glad stations like WBAL and WJLA are taking the initiative, since in the end it will help the other stations.

edit: I hate to admit this, but I'm also in favor of the FCC playing favorites when it makes sense to do so. WPBH preventing WUSA from reaching it's designated viewers doesn't make sense. It does to fans of WPBH, I'm sure, but let's consider the greater good here. WUSA is a major network affiliate, I can't believe that WPBH's viewership even scratches the surface of what WUSA's is.

Experimenting for a broadcast station can be an expensive proposition, depending on the capacity of the transmitter and antenna. Generally you need to make sure the physics and allocation work on paper, before you spend the money.

Regarding your question about when VHF propagation was determined.. Prior to when the original VHF TV station construction permits were being issued in the 1940's, the assumption for both transmission and reception to allocation was calculated. The assumption was, and still is with DTV; that a receive antenna would be horizontal polarity, of at least 10dB gain and installed outside at 30 feet above ground. If this installation is typical, then the theory and practice work perfectly. Fast forward to 2009 and none of the original assumptions took into account 'rabbit ear' antennas, antennas mounted in attics, etc. Modern construction of homes may have foil or mylar coated insulation, noisy house wiring caused by consumer electronic devices (computers and florescent lights), etc. All of these factors cause attenuation or interference to the VHF signal through walls. Of course the antennas indoors have less gain also.

So now is where the tricky part comes into play. It's true that VHF signals (especially DTV which are rated at RMS power, not peak power like NTSC), propagate much further on the horizon than UHF signals. So the issue with interfering with a co-or ajacent channel in another market is a huge factor, but now the field strength to penetrate buildings within a market is compromised. Depending on the individual situation, the FCC may be stuck. Do they authorize a higher power with the risk of interference to viewers to other markets? Or do they keep the power lower and have upset OTA viewers without outdoor antennas within a market?

To me it was silly to allow stations to go back to a VHF channel. Not only has it created confusion with viewers who got used to receiving a UHF signal, but it has put the stations in an unfortunate PR and financial bind in having to possibly upgrade their facilities more than twice.

32 Year Broadcast Technical Veteran with over ten years in DTV transmission and reception experience.
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Old 08-28-2009, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Kelly From KOMO View Post


To me it was silly to allow stations to go back to a VHF channel. Not only has it created confusion with viewers who got used to receiving a UHF signal, but it has put the stations in an unfortunate PR and financial bind in having to possibly upgrade their facilities more than twice.

Right on! It caused headaches and confusion for the broadcasters and for the consumers.
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:28 AM
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Hey everyone, I had a quick question. Is anyone having issues seeing the substations of WJLA (7.2 and 7.3) and WUSA (9.2)? I'm not sure is the problem is Directv or not. I have my roof antennas connected to the off air antenna in my Directv receiver. I pick up 7.1 and 9.1 flawlessly but the substations don't come in. The funny thing is that the Directv guide has show listings for 7.3. I didn't know if it was something I could fix or if it was something else. Thanks
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Old 08-28-2009, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

WUSA has 3.67 Mbps of 0x1eee. That's Mobile DTV.

I don't know where you get this -- I checked your official TSReader of WUSA, and it shows 3.44 Mbps of "0x1fff MPEG-2 NULL Packet". Absolutely no mention of "0x1eee" -- unlike WPXW channel 66, with 3.66 Mbps of "0x1eee Unknown usage".

Maybe you have a later TSReader cap that I can't access, but I still don't see how you can confirm Mobile DTV at WUSA, yet. However, I will admit that I've seen 9-1 macroblocking heavily recently, on a standard-def TV.
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Old 08-28-2009, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Kelly From KOMO View Post

... The assumption was, and still is with DTV; that a receive antenna would be horizontal polarity, of at least 10dB gain and installed outside at 30 feet above ground. If this installation is typical, then the theory and practice work perfectly. Fast forward to 2009 and none of the original assumptions took into account 'rabbit ear' antennas, antennas mounted in attics, etc. Modern construction of homes may have foil or mylar coated insulation, noisy house wiring caused by consumer electronic devices (computers and florescent lights), etc. All of these factors cause attenuation or interference to the VHF signal through walls. Of course the antennas indoors have less gain also.

There's another factor with DTV that I wonder how much thought was put into, and that's the "acceptable quality" factor. With analog TV, you could get something that's watchable if your tolerance for some ghosting/snow was moderate. The exact same signal level at the antenna with DTV might be worthless. I'm a prime example of this phenominon. I had an antenna that "got" 7 and 9 analog just fine, the picture was quite good actually, but it wasn't perfect. That exact same antenna couldn't provide enough signal for any receiver I have to lock onto 7 digital at all. 7 was/is at the maximum alotted power for VHF, so in theory that shouldn't have happened, right? I suppose that's why I keep harping that the numbers have to be wrong ... lol WUSA isn't anywhere near the max, so I don't consider that to fall into the same category, really just WJLA.

edit: it's not like I can do anything about it, I suppose I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing here ... sorry ... very troll-like behavior on my part.
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Old 08-28-2009, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by re_nelson View Post

Likewise, the WLS/Chicago channel change notes coverage of the Gay Pride Parade and Mexican Independence Day as examples of its commitment to local programming.

Bringing this matter of content closer to Washington, if programming factors in at all, doesn't WETA have a much stronger case for moving to channel 51 than does WWPX?

Under that theory, WUSA has the strongest case of them all, considering its for-profit status. However, I'll still give the nod to WETA because of their interference issue with WHAG. Didn't they file for 51 before WWPX?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly From KOMO View Post

To me it was silly to allow stations to go back to a VHF channel. Not only has it created confusion with viewers who got used to receiving a UHF signal, but it has put the stations in an unfortunate PR and financial bind in having to possibly upgrade their facilities more than twice.

In theory, you have a point; however, there was simply too much money to be had in channels 52-54, let alone the others. It's like how ABC put that second HD subchannel on, purely for the money -- ABC picture quality be damned.

Additionally, how much could revenue possibly be taken away by a weak OTA signal? Something like 80% of viewers have cable or satellite, anyway, and especially the more affluent people that advertisers tend to crave. I read somewhere that half of those that have OTA can still get the VHF OTA signals, leaving maybe 9-10% of the populous. OTA people tend to be older and poorer people, neither of which are advertiser-friendly crowds. I could see a station manager or two deliberately using a lower-power VHF to their advantage, by "forcing" some OTA viewers to sign up for basic cable. Why? So the station can get $.50-1.00/sub/month off the backend, not just for them, but for everyone else subscribed to cable -- all to make up the difference in any lost revenue. Plus, the power bills, transmitter maintenance costs, and any potential new transmitter costs, are kept lower. Then again, I'm cheap.

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Originally Posted by djp952 View Post

I had an antenna that "got" 7 and 9 analog just fine, the picture was quite good actually, but it wasn't perfect. That exact same antenna couldn't provide enough signal for any receiver I have to lock onto 7 digital at all. 7 was/is at the maximum alotted power for VHF, so in theory that shouldn't have happened, right? I suppose that's why I keep harping that the numbers have to be wrong ... lol

And they could be wrong. However, a dedicated VHF preamp and VHF-UHF combiner might do the trick for both 7 and 9. That's cheaper than 7 and 9 upping their power.
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Old 08-28-2009, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by SternLover21215 View Post

Hey everyone, I had a quick question. Is anyone having issues seeing the substations of WJLA (7.2 and 7.3) and WUSA (9.2)? I'm not sure is the problem is Directv or not. I have my roof antennas connected to the off air antenna in my Directv receiver. I pick up 7.1 and 9.1 flawlessly but the substations don't come in. The funny thing is that the Directv guide has show listings for 7.3. I didn't know if it was something I could fix or if it was something else. Thanks

What DirecTV receiver are you using? Have you tried direct tuning to 7.3? Have you tried tuning to 7.1 and then using up channel to get to 7.2?
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Old 08-28-2009, 01:42 PM
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What DirecTV receiver are you using? Have you tried direct tuning to 7.3? Have you tried tuning to 7.1 and then using up channel to get to 7.2?

Eben,

I have an HR20 receiver. I've tried direct tuning to 7.3 directly and using the up channel. The funny thing is that I can get the substations for other channels like 4.2, 4.3, and 50.2. I'm assuming the signal for the substations is coming from the same source as the other stations.
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Old 08-28-2009, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemikeb View Post

I don't know where you get this -- I checked your official TSReader of WUSA, and it shows 3.44 Mbps of "0x1fff MPEG-2 NULL Packet". Absolutely no mention of "0x1eee" -- unlike WPXW channel 66, with 3.66 Mbps of "0x1eee Unknown usage".

Maybe you have a later TSReader cap that I can't access, but I still don't see how you can confirm Mobile DTV at WUSA, yet. However, I will admit that I've seen 9-1 macroblocking heavily recently, on a standard-def TV.

Whoops. I thought I'd recently uploaded a newer one, but I guess I didn't...

I was actually referring to the one that djp952 posted: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...ostcount=10474

I plan to use that data, I just need to rename them, edit out the EIT data (this is the really time-consuming part) and then upload them to RabbitEars.

Quote:
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Under that theory, WUSA has the strongest case of them all, considering its for-profit status. However, I'll still give the nod to WETA because of their interference issue with WHAG. Didn't they file for 51 before WWPX?

No, WETA and WWPX were filed before the June 20, 2008 deadline, which means the FCC will treat them as mutually exclusive and as though they were filed on the same date.

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Old 08-28-2009, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mikemikeb View Post

...
Something like 80% of viewers have cable or satellite
...
I read somewhere that half of those that have OTA can still get the VHF OTA signals, leaving maybe 9-10% of the populous
...
a dedicated VHF preamp and VHF-UHF combiner might do the trick for both 7 and 9. That's cheaper than 7 and 9 upping their power.

Really?!?

According to Nielsen, the DC DMA has over 2.3 million households. (Let's ignore Baltimore just to keep it simple.)

So, in other words, you're saying -- using your figures from above -- that the purchase, installation, and continuous operation -- you realize that the power supplies for these preamps will consume a couple of watts or so of electricity, each, right?? -- of some 200,000 or more additional VHF preamps would be cheaper than channel 7 and 9 throwing a bit more juice at their VHF transmitters???
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Old 08-28-2009, 04:21 PM
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WHUT is now in HD (1080i). Don't know exactly when it changed but I was surfing through the channels and saw an HD logo at the bottom of the screen.

HD DVD = 102
BD = 45
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Old 08-28-2009, 05:40 PM
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200,000 or more additional VHF preamps would be cheaper than channel 7 and 9 throwing a bit more juice at their VHF transmitters???

For some, a preamp won't be needed; an RG-6 cable will suffice. In any case, I was only giving an example for him; I wouldn't recommend a preamp for 200,000 people. Additionally, it wouldn't be a "bit" more power on 7 and 9. The power bill would go up pretty significantly with higher VHF powers. A switch to UHF would be another thing, entirely.

I looked up the location of Elkridge, MD; it's located inbetween DC and Baltimore's towers. Perhaps the antenna is already pointed towards Washington, but if it isn't, then pointing that way might fix the problem, without losing any Baltimore stations.

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WHUT is now in HD (1080i). Don't know exactly when it changed but I was surfing through the channels and saw an HD logo at the bottom of the screen.

Just checked the OTA tuner. 32-1 is 1080i HD; 32-2 is 480i SD feed. Currently no audio on 32-2.
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Old 08-28-2009, 06:15 PM
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I looked up the location of Elkridge, MD; it's located inbetween DC and Baltimore's towers. Perhaps the antenna is already pointed towards Washington, but if it isn't, then pointing that way might fix the problem, without losing any Baltimore stations.

LOL, I have to assume you're talking about me there! Yeah, it's pointed towards D.C. I have separate systems for D.C. and Baltimore Being as in-between as I am, it's nigh on impossible to get both from a single system, I spent a very long time trying! Now I use a computer and separate tuners hooked to each city's antenna system so there is no worries about aiming or trying to receive channels from nulls or rear gain. (I've been at this a while, and contrary to what I might sound like, I'm pretty thrilled overall with my results ... you can't argue with close to 50 channels, even if 33% of them are PBS - heh)

edit: 32.2 no audio confirmed. Let's give them some time. There was also stretch-o-vision going on earlier on 32.1. Thanks for the heads-up, I've added the channel and am looking forward to even MORE PBS programming from here in rainy downtown Elkridge!! (I jest, but I actually really appreciate having WMPT, WETA and WHUT available to me. I also get WMPB, which is handy for nights were scheduling recordings are tight on the D.C. array). The wife loves WHUT, when she gets back from Germany next year I think the fact that it's finally HD will make her a pretty happy camper. [If anyone wants to know, she's Navy Reserve and was activated last month and will be gone until next October .. hence my increased trolling time at avsforum :-) ]
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Old 08-28-2009, 06:30 PM
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Any chance of new TSReader data on WHUT?

- Trip

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Old 08-28-2009, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post
Any chance of new TSReader data on WHUT?

- Trip
Your wish ... my command. Enjoy

 

whut-tsreader-08282009.zip 2.5966796875k . file
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Old 08-28-2009, 07:50 PM
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I was watching FOX 21 tonight on Verizon FiOS and was wondering what was up with the anamorphic look. I thought, since we get FOX-21 HD they were taking that feed for the SD channel (5) and doing something wierd with it.

Then I tuned OTA (Zenith DTT901) and found 21.2 was indeed 16x9 ratio. I checked again with my Sylvania STB and it showed it to be SD 16x9.

This seems like a good compromise as I couldn't believe you could get anywhere near an acceptable picture with both 1080i and 720p on one channel. I'm not sure if 21.2 is 480i or 480p as there's nothing on the net about this. I'm sure it just happened as I usually tune in FOX 21.

I just hope they don't flop back to 4x3 and make me look stupid.

So check it out! Believe me, it was 16x9 as I typed this.
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Old 08-28-2009, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by djp952 View Post

Your wish ... my command. Enjoy

Thanks. My observations:

1) It's in 1440x1080i. Someone got a setting wrong somewhere along the way.

2) The Mobile DTV has vanished but there's exactly 3.67 Mbps worth of null packets. I'm assuming they'll bring the MobileDTV back online in that space sooner rather than later.

3) UpdateTV is still there, though I'm having a hard time figuring where the 2 Mbps it occasionally uses will be coming from. I imagine it'll get sucked from the HD, already down at 11.2 Mbps.

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Old 08-28-2009, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Drewdawg View Post

I was watching FOX 21 tonight on Verizon FiOS and was wondering what was up with the anamorphic look. I thought, since we get FOX-21 HD they were taking that feed for the SD channel (5) and doing something wierd with it.

So check it out! Believe me, it was 16x9 as I typed this.

The OTA picture of FOX 21 looks very weird on my Samsung LCD. It has a peculiar squeezed look to it. (Looks like 4x2.5???) It was the same way last night. OTOH, the picture on CBS 16 is actually pretty darn good. It actually looks better than WUSA-9 with the Redskins game. The macroblocking is just terrible on WUSA with complex scenes.
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Old 08-28-2009, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mikemikeb View Post

I could see a station manager or two deliberately using a lower-power VHF to their advantage, by "forcing" some OTA viewers to sign up for basic cable. Why? So the station can get $.50-1.00/sub/month off the backend, not just for them, but for everyone else subscribed to cable.


Is there a kickback arrangement such that the cableco pays the broadcast station per user? I know the cableco pays such for cable program sources and there is a "must carry" rule. But I assumed it was to the local broadcaster's advantage to directly pipe their content to the head end; I didn't know they got directly paid for same.
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Old 08-28-2009, 08:48 PM
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WHUT-32.1 is broadcasting in widescreen 1080i tonight. There is also a 32.2 subchannel showing up, but no programming yet.
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Old 08-28-2009, 09:48 PM
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3) UpdateTV is still there, though I'm having a hard time figuring where the 2 Mbps it occasionally uses will be coming from.



Is it actually doing anything, anywhere?
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:06 PM
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I've heard about Sony TVs (I think?) getting updated with it.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

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Old 08-28-2009, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Digital Rules View Post

WHUT-32.1 is broadcasting in widescreen 1080i tonight. There is also a 32.2 subchannel showing up, but no programming yet.

WHUT-HD RF33.1 is broadcasting 1080i 16:9 HD to virtual 32.1. WHUT-SD RF33.2 is broadcasting 480i 4:3 SD to virtual 32.2. 32.2 is featuring a white WHUT logo on the lower right corner of the 4:3 black background.
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