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post #181 of 19496 Old 12-22-2003, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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okc,

That antenna appears to be a VHF/UHF combo. In general, you're going to have better results with a UHF-only model. The CM3000 might work, but a UHF-only should be more of a sure thing.

FYI -- all St. Louis digitals are currently on the UHF band.

Doug


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post #182 of 19496 Old 12-23-2003, 06:27 PM
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I spoke with a Charter representative and he told me they will be adding CBS and ABC to their list of local hd channels, but who can believe them.
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post #183 of 19496 Old 12-23-2003, 06:55 PM
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I'm sure they will.. but when? 2005?

Hmmm....
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post #184 of 19496 Old 12-23-2003, 07:12 PM
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I know I asked this before, but what is up with KETC? I get two of the 3 subchannels as 720P identical programming when I used to get 1080i on sub channel #1. The quality has gone down also, as 'Living Edens' looks like garbage. Anyone have a contact at KETC that can correct this?

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post #185 of 19496 Old 12-23-2003, 07:15 PM
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Also, the KETC HD schedule web page seems to be down.

http://www.ptvdigital.org/dt2a_sked.html

"The Internet .... It's a series of tubes....I just the other day got, an internet was sent by my staff at 10 o'clock in the morning on Friday and I just got it yesterday. Why?"
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post #186 of 19496 Old 12-23-2003, 08:52 PM
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Hi,
A quick question on the Motorola 5100 HD unit. What type of signal is output from the unit on the component output when the unit is tuned to a regular non HD channel such as ESPN or the other regular band channels?
(Is it a standard 480i or does the unit upconvert any of those channels?)

Thanks in advance for any insight.

Joe H
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post #187 of 19496 Old 12-23-2003, 09:11 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by abcward
Let's not paint a totally rosey picture of Charter either - The most irritating part of the HD experience with Charter is the fact that their website shows that they have ALL the locals, ESPN, Discovery, HDNets and HBO/Showtime. Yet all of us Charter customers know for a fact that we do not have half of these channels yet.

The Charter website clearly states that the channel availability varies by location:

With Charter HDTV, you can get the following HD channels*:


» Local ABC, CBS, NBC

» Local Fox in widescreen high resolution

» HBO HD (must be HBO subscriber)

» Showtime HD (must be Showtime subscriber)

» HDNet & HDNet Movies

» Discovery HD


* Channel availability varies by location.

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post #188 of 19496 Old 12-23-2003, 09:32 PM
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...find me ONE charter city that has Discovery HD..... I highly doubt that Charter negotiates local deals with national channels like Discovery, ESPN, etc. [locals are obviously negotiated locally]

im amazed when people actually try and defend this company.
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post #189 of 19496 Old 12-23-2003, 09:59 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by rman222
What type of signal is output from the unit on the component output when the unit is tuned to a regular non HD channel such as ESPN or the other regular band channels?

This depends on the 4:3 Override setting in the User Settings menu.
The 4:3 Override sets the display format for 4:3 standard-definition programming. If the YPbPr Output is set to 1080i, 720p, or 480p, this setting defaults to 480i.

OFF displays 4:3 programs on a 16:9 HDTV in a cropped (pillar box) format in 480i. Selecting OFF for a 4:3 HDTV may result in a small picture with black bars around it. This setting disables the aspect option on some HDTV's.

480i displays non-HD programs in their original 480i format and typically allows the use of the aspect option on most televisions to operate properly.
But remember, some HDTVs cannot display 480i format on their component video inputs (YPbPr). I have seen this many times on Samsung and Zenith (ugh) HDTV's.

480p converts non-HD programs to 480p and typically allows the use of the aspect option on most televisions to operate properly. It is important to remember that the menu and flip bar graphics cannot be displayed on the RF, RCA and S-Video outputs with this setting enabled. Why is this important? You may be using a secondary composite connection to resolve the analog video issue with the DCT-5100.

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post #190 of 19496 Old 12-23-2003, 10:34 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by abcward
...find me ONE charter city that has Discovery HD.....


Ft. Worth, Texas


770 HDNet Movies

771 HDNet

775 Discovery-HD

777 HBO-HD East

778 Showtime-HD East

780 KXAS-DT NBC

784 KDFW-DT FOX (480p)


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post #191 of 19496 Old 12-23-2003, 10:38 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by rman222
Hi,
A quick question on the Motorola 5100 HD unit. What type of signal is output from the unit on the component output when the unit is tuned to a regular non HD channel such as ESPN or the other regular band channels?
(Is it a standard 480i or does the unit upconvert any of those channels?)

Thanks in advance for any insight.

Joe H

The answer is "yes". Depends on your settings and personal taste.

http://www.cjhengineering.com/5100faq.htm

"The Internet .... It's a series of tubes....I just the other day got, an internet was sent by my staff at 10 o'clock in the morning on Friday and I just got it yesterday. Why?"
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post #192 of 19496 Old 12-23-2003, 10:40 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by abcward
Let's not paint a totally rosey picture of Charter either - The most irritating part of the HD experience with Charter is the fact that their website shows that they have ALL the locals, ESPN, Discovery, HDNets and HBO/Showtime. Yet all of us Charter customers know for a fact that we do not have half of these channels yet.

Charter's website says nothing about ESPN.

http://www.charter.com/products/hdtv/hdtv.asp

Sorry abc, just trying to clear up some facts.

Peace
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post #193 of 19496 Old 12-24-2003, 07:15 AM
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Well it wont be any issue for me much longer - I am setting up my appt for Dishnet this week.
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post #194 of 19496 Old 12-24-2003, 07:59 AM
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Sounds like nobody cares about local KETC PBS OTA broadcasting. Here is what I sent them. Please send something similar to letters@ketc.org if you would like to get this corrected.

"Hi,

I am a big fan of your HDTV OTA broadcasting. I noticed recently you changed to 720p on two subchannels showing the exact same content, instead of what you used to do which was send 1080i on one subchannel (and HD being one sub channel only). I miss the 1080i, and was wondering why the duplicate channels and lower resolution?

Thanks,
Jason"

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post #195 of 19496 Old 12-24-2003, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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BGPGuy,

I just checked KETC-DT on my DTC-100 and I'm still getting three separate program streams -- the HD/SD national feed, the PBS Kids feed and then the normal KETC analog feed. It appears that the latter two feeds are SD upconverts.

I can't directly address the 720p/1080i issue you're reporting, as my DTC-100 doesn't give any indication of the format. However, a week or so ago I was working on a RCA Scenium DLP at a local dealer and noticed that the program banner for KETC-DT was indicating 720p. I wondered about that then, but at the time just chalked it up to the TV displaying the actual format sent to the DLP engine. Based on what you're saying now, that's probably not the case.

I wonder if KETC-DT has decided to go to 720p instead of 1080i, or whether they are just broadcasting incorrect format information. Maybe that will be included in the reply you get from KETC.

Finally, I also noticed that the online programming guide has gone south. I'm getting a DNS error on this, so I'm not sure if this is a temporary or permanent outage. If nothing else, the online schedule was useful for determining which programs were going to be HD and which were upconverts.

Also, it would be nice to know if/when KETC-DT is going to provide Dolby Digital 5.1. I'm a big fan of music programming and would love to see and hear Soundstage, Austin City Limits, etc. at the highest possible quality.

Doug


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post #196 of 19496 Old 12-24-2003, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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As some of you probably know, HDTV Magazine runs an e-mail list called "HDTV Tips," where all sorts of discussions about HDTV programming, technologies, etc. are exchanged among subscribers. I've only been subscribing to this list for a few months, but there are sometimes some very interesting discussions.

Dale Cripps, who is the editor of HDTV Magazine, is a periodic contributor to the list, as you might expect. He responded to a topic yesterday about the trends for 720p and 1080i programming. I don't always agree with Dale, but I think he makes some quite interesting points in his reply and I thought that there might be others here who would also find it worthwhile reading.

Apologies to anyone that finds this massively off-topic. If nothing else, it provides a diversion if/when the ho-ho-ho family harmony thing begins to go wobbly over the course of the next couple of days...

Dale's note follows:
______________________________________________________

Thank you Hugh. I have heard that the 720p is on a roll if for no other reason than ABC/Disney have so much buying power with their ABC Sports and the ESPN sports business so that the builders of these production trucks are now favoring 720p since 1) the 720p gear is becoming cheaper and 2) makes inventory buying more predictable (don't need two bandwidth systems). I don't think that means that CBS will ever abandon 1080i as long as Joe Flaherty is there (or his shadow is present), but Joe is 72 and talking like he may be looking for an easier line of work than doing international format battles against a rising tide of next generation techno-soldiers. Europe has also grasp the 720P idea (as a bandwidth reduction solution) and so there is enormous pressure mounting at the manufacturing level to favor with both engineering investments and fabrication that which is 720p native. Again, doesn't mean the end of 1080i, it just means that in events that use electronic cameras we may see a great deal more of it.

This move to more 720p could leave a commit trail behind it too. The native display rate of 720p could become the norm, as it has become with fixed pixel devices. For CRT based devices (and they will be with us for years and years to come, trust me) this adds cost. This is the first decision in years taken by a signal provider that offers them financial incentive but potentialy penalizes the general public with added cost or lower performance (the debate centers for us about whether that is always the case). It has typically been that all of the cost of a TV system is loaded up on the signals provider's side (signal pre-processing as much as possible) in order to have a lower net, net-cost for the creation of an installed base among the general public (thus our basically dumb terminals).

While the 720p vs. 1080i has become a "religious" debate in terms of picture quality there may come a time when sides have to be more firmly drawn by the public. Once we are "comfortably" into a format (720p or 1080i) it will have to be a major visual breakthrough to carry us any further to a higher format. It is not that sciences fails to march onward but in marketing terms you need a sufficient cause (performance gap) to create a product revolution. HDTV had to be 5 times that of NTSC before enough courage was mustered throughout the industry to destroy the old standards in favor of the new. Even with that there were many who had to increase their dosage of MAALOX for it never has been clear that HD would make it (though this fear is highly reduced now). If the nation becomes satisfied with a 720p base we will not likely leap out of that into something more extraordinary, at least for the general public. I do think that there are much higher private networks in the future where ultra high vision could get a foothold, but this is the top of the commercial pyramid--a niche--and not its base. Every advance for the general public comes with a price tag related to the greater bandwidth and its processing costs, and so when bandwidth costs become only trivial in both hardware and distribution we could see light shinning (lower risk) again for a higher format for the general public. But this 720p Vs 1080 i debate is poised to heat up internationally since bandwidth is not yet free. We may all wind up wearing lapel pins for our preference.

Dale
______________________________________________________

Doug


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post #197 of 19496 Old 12-24-2003, 04:15 PM
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Like abcward I too live in Wildwood, have had Charter HD since I first learned they offered it (I was early in thanks to updates from this forum) and now I am opting for Dish Network (to be installed Dec 30). I doubt Charter will expand HD offering anytime soon. I have e-mailed KMOV-4 and KDLC-30 (ABC) and both said Charter is negotiating with their parent companies nationally. My frustration with Charter has lead me to jump to Dish. I am not originally from St. Louis but metro Louisville, Kentucky so I have an intense interest in Univ of Kentucky basketball so the extensive regional Fox Sports Net package is appealing and I only use two TVs, but one HDTV primarily (wife, no kids). Very important: Dish, through www.vmcsatellite.com, is offering FREE HD receiver (the new 811 with OTA HD capability) and dish and $49.99 credit for three months. That was the clincher for me. Just add $5/mo to regular service tier price to cover equipment. That is competitive with cable strategy of fee for HD box. No big outlay for equipment and all digital beats Charter's crappy analog stations and limited HD.

Speaking of crappy analog, I believe it has something to do with the digital STB. I have noticed that for analog stations I get much better picture through my S-VSH VCR with S-video connection than I do when viewed via the Motorola HD box and component. I have a RCA Scenium 52" HDTV (no built in HD tuner). Currently, I have only calibrated it using the new Digital Video Essentials. Big improvement, but I've heard from Matt at the Sound Room that Doug does terrific work. I'll put that on my HT to-do list.

Regarding early posts, I checked with Charter and Basic cable is $10/mo. I will keep this because of Pipeline Internet. I get Dish Network's $33.99 tier + $5 for equipment lease (1 or 2 rooms), add $9.99/mo for HD, keep basic cable and $35 Pipeline and come out about $5 more than Charter HD; however, that is compared to Charter currently offering HD free!

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post #198 of 19496 Old 12-24-2003, 04:30 PM
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Now I have a question. In preparation for the Dish install next week, I need to get an antenna for OTA digital local stations. I live in Wildwood, specifically in Copper Lakes subdivision, which is about a half mile from Clarkson Rd on Manchester Rd, then south on Old State Rd one mile and on the west side of Old State. From the St. Louis tower map provided by Doug I should be within a 20 mile range and no big obstruction of view. From www.antennaweb.org I have determined that I need "yellow" and "green" rated antenna / small multi-directional. Will a Zenith Silver Sensor indoor work? I've heard great things about it. What about a Terk TV-44 "clip on to dish" antenna? All I need is digital local stations because I'll keep Charter basic cable since I need Pipeline (I work from home often). Thanks for your help in advance.

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post #199 of 19496 Old 12-24-2003, 05:01 PM
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Nice info on the state of affairs Doug! Thanks for sharing. I was wondering when the format war would begin. Regarding KETC, I only asked about the 720P, but will also try to get an answer about the web site. I will post if I get an answer. I highly encourage all readers to email them though. They need to know we care about the quality. A friend toured the station, and the resident engineer was rather blasse' and seemed to not really be a fan of his own work, Home Theater, or even HD (typical of many people for whom initial passion for a career has degraded to "just a job"). Maybe he had a bad day, but future email correspondence to this contact pointing out quality problems were unanswered.

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post #200 of 19496 Old 12-24-2003, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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ELRHD,

I think it's worth taking a shot with the Silver Sensor, especially if Best Buy is still applying its liberal return policies.

On the other hand, I've had a bad experience with a Terk antenna and I've read a fair number of similar reports from others. I can't say definitively that a Terk won't work, but I think there are better alternatives. Of course, if space is a major issue, then the clip-on antenna might be worth a try, if only to rule it out.

If you don't mind, it would be helpful to post a short note updating on what you did and how it worked once it's all said and done.

Good luck.

Doug


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post #201 of 19496 Old 12-24-2003, 05:32 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by ELRHD
I doubt Charter will expand HD offering anytime soon. I have e-mailed KMOV-4 and KDLC-30 (ABC) and both said Charter is negotiating with their parent companies nationally.

It is a well known fact in the industry that CBS and ESPN are the toughest at the negotiating table....they know what they have and they expect big money for it.

Quote:


Originally posted by ELRHD
Speaking of crappy analog, I believe it has something to do with the digital STB. I have noticed that for analog stations I get much better picture through my S-VSH VCR with S-video connection than I do when viewed via the Motorola HD box and component.

Correct. This is a known issue at Motorola. This is caused by the analog signal being processed via the component cables. (luminence/color/color).

Quote:


Originally posted by ELRHD
Basic cable is $10/mo. I will keep this because of Pipeline Internet

The $10.00 monthly service is no longer required for Pipleline only.


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post #202 of 19496 Old 12-25-2003, 09:00 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by 4113
It is a well known fact in the industry that CBS and ESPN are the toughest at the negotiating table....they know what they have and they expect big money for it.

This isn't a network issue, it is the parent companies of the local affiliates - Sinclair and Belo. As I posted before, these two companies held up satellite locals for the longest time, and now they are doing it with HD cable coverage. It is inexcusable greed, IMO.

Mike
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post #203 of 19496 Old 12-25-2003, 10:49 AM
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FYI
Dishnetwork 811 systems are free to new subscribers from any retailer. Please do busness with the local guys. We can handle your OTA needs as well.
The 921 Dual Tuner HDTV DVR should be available in limited quanity next week.

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post #204 of 19496 Old 12-25-2003, 11:22 AM
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On the KETC 720p thing.
From what I understand: The engineers that I have been able to talk to say that 720p is the future of HDTV on Satellite and hopefully DVD.
From what I have seen: 720p done right delivers an awesome picture but that is via Satellite.
All of the STL local channels have a LONG way to go! The rules as I read them are DTV not HDTV.
KETC has 3 feeds with only a certain amout of bandwith to work with so make your own conclusion.
Get all of the brodcasters e-mail and phone numbers and pound them to no end or I am afraid what you will see is 480p with multiple feeds.
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post #205 of 19496 Old 12-25-2003, 01:42 PM
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Re KETC; sad. Very sad.

"The Internet .... It's a series of tubes....I just the other day got, an internet was sent by my staff at 10 o'clock in the morning on Friday and I just got it yesterday. Why?"
--Senator T. Stevens
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post #206 of 19496 Old 12-25-2003, 04:22 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Ned Schiff
All of the STL local channels have a LONG way to go! The rules as I read them are DTV not HDTV.
KETC has 3 feeds with only a certain amout of bandwith to work with so make your own conclusion.
Get all of the brodcasters e-mail and phone numbers and pound them to no end or I am afraid what you will see is 480p with multiple feeds.
Ned

Huh? I'm not sure I understand this.

KTVI is O&O - so they pass exactly what Fox gives them, which right now is 480P.
KMOV is passing HD 1080i and 5.1 audio - as CBS offers.
KSDK is passing HD 1080i as NBC offers
KDNL is passing HD 720P as ABC offers
KPLR is passing HD 1080i as WB offers

PBS has made a public commitment to multicasting - KETC will pass HD as 1080i when offered. Sub-channels are 480i.

What am I missing? If the concern is 720P vs 1080i, thats more of a religious battle. If you are concerned that the stations currently passing HD will take a step back to 480P with multicasting, I personally doubt that - not when everyone has invested in 720P/1080i equipment (consumers and studios alike)

Chris

Hmmm....
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post #207 of 19496 Old 12-25-2003, 04:55 PM
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Well, I should qualify my statement a bit. If they do go 480P, or have plans to, then that would be sad. Not sure I buy this story yet though.

As far as 720P vs 1080i, I like 1080i, and I just did not see the point in both sub-channels showing in 720P. Maybe because they have different programing, we may benefit? I need to watch more of both channels to determine if they are that redundant/duplicate in content broadcast.

"The Internet .... It's a series of tubes....I just the other day got, an internet was sent by my staff at 10 o'clock in the morning on Friday and I just got it yesterday. Why?"
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post #208 of 19496 Old 12-26-2003, 09:05 AM
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I am also getting a little discouraged about the lack of HD programing on Charter. I know about the offers from DISH but does anyone know about any similar offers from DIRECT TV? I had DISH but dumped them to go with Charter so I don't think I would qualify for the HD offer from DISH.

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post #209 of 19496 Old 12-26-2003, 09:59 AM
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StLouG -
You do qualify for the rental program - still free, with your first three months of AT100+HBO/Cinemax free as well.

That is exactly what we did. After running the numbers and looking at the options, the rental package actually appeared to be a good deal.

Chris

Hmmm....
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post #210 of 19496 Old 12-26-2003, 01:02 PM
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I called Dishnetwork today asking if I could upgrade to HD and get the free 811.
The rep said they aren't offering the deal at this moment because they don't have any 811 left.
I was told to call back after Jan 5th. and maybe They might be able to help me.
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Closed Thread Local HDTV Info and Reception

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