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post #361 of 12165 Old 04-25-2007, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

Yeah, I noticed it looked pretty bad again today throughout the Cubs' game - anytime there was any movement during closeups, and when they went to and from replays, when they'd quickly flash that "WGN Sports" logo. It was horrible. They should at least stop showing that thing during the replays. It really doesn't show very much on the wide shots during movement, and those take up at least 90% of the broadcast.

I figured it's mainly the station, since "Smallville" - anytime it has any fast movements or explosions - shows the same thing. It's inexcusable in my opinion.

I could swear that "The Tube" was originally MUCH worse with artifacts in it's beginning days, and the main channel was better (the tube rarely shows any noticable artifacts anymore). I know that it was always evident to some degree before on 9-1, but something tells me they robbed Peter to pay Paul a bit there.

I don't know how The Tube was before, but compared to WMAQ (the only other 1080i channel with a sub), WGN's bitrate for their main channel is kinda low:

WGN:


WMAQ:
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post #362 of 12165 Old 04-25-2007, 08:41 PM
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O.K., now I get it!

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post #363 of 12165 Old 04-25-2007, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mklawz View Post

what's "artifacting"?

Today I was able to view my first game in HD. Pretty good I must say, I noticed some blurriness here and there when they moved the camera, like it took a brief moment to come into focus. Is that 'artifacting'? I dont know this stuff...

So do most people who have the OTA locals end up cancelling their locals from their provider? Or do poeple keep them for "back-up" or some kind? I feel I should hang on to them for a while.

Also, as Gilbert and I discussed the issue with WBBM not coming in with my antenna. I still dont know if it's worth spending another $50 on a better antenna. I really dont watch that much tube, I just want my ballgames now and then. I just can't come up with anything on that channel that I would watch. So I just dunno...

First, "artifacting" is when the action on the screen is so different, frame by frame, that the video encorders at the Tv station or uplink equipment can't keep up. Thus, the video appears blurry, or "blocky". If you looked close, you'd actually see individual squares on the screen. Due to the way the video is processed, progressive scan high definition doesn't usually have this problem, though resolution suffers slightly as a result. Watch a NASCAR race on NBC and you'll see it there, too.

Sometimes, it is because they don't allocate enough bits or data to the channel. Although it appears that they have made improvements now, WCIU-DT 26-2's simulcast of "MeTV" was "interesting" to watch when they showed high school basketball games on weekends this past season. The macroblocking there was obvious (sorry, HVS, it was a good example---and normally, WCIU-DT gets it right every time). When "Create" first signed on 11-3...that was like watching a Real(tm) video at 128 kb resolution. It's a lot better now, but they had to reduce the quality a bit recently to accomodate V-Me on 11-4.

I have seen people have over-the-air as dish users for multiple reasons:

1) ALL channels sent in HD are seen in HD over your TV, whether Dish or Comcast has an agreement with them...or not. Furthermore, out here in DeKalb, they don't have WYCC-TV or WYCC-DT on our system at all. I get both via antenna. Also,
Comcast won't have Rockford HD stations due to bandwidth limitations on their system for a long time. I can get them all, and sometimes, WMAQ forgets to throw the HD switch, and I get Rockford's NBC...and they don't forget. No, nobody knows exactly why WMAQ forgets to flip the switch. Sometimes, it's not their fault: the network hasn't equipped WMAQ with a satellite feed to get some shows in HD, such as many of the NHL games they showed this season. Word is that equipment will be in very shortly.

2) Over-the-air quality trumps HD sent via satellite. Every time. MPEG-4 converter boxes that DirecTV and Dish uses are a lot better, but over-the-air is still best. Comcast gets very close, but people still notice a slight edge of the over-the-air signal.

3) If there are channel disputes with Dish or your cable company (and there are), storms knock out your dish/cable reception, or whatever else...you have the antenna as a backup.

4) Every now and then, satellite and cable has a problem with their fiber or over-the-air feeds (Dish and DirecTV get their HD and analog signals with an antenna; I know DirecTV's "head end" is near Oak Brook, and Dish, I believe, is above a bank on the west side of Chicago). All analog signals on cable are fiber; and all are from an antenna from Dish and DirecTV. All over-the-air digital signals are antenna from *everyone*, except Comcast and *maybe* Wide Open West has a fiber feed from WBBM-DT, due to their low signal power.

5) In the spring-fall, when weather fronts come through, you can frequently get out-of-town stations. Fun to see newscasts from South Bend or Milwaukee, or beyond.

6) You can get FM signals, and the new HD Radios work well with them.

7) When the lower power stations sign on in the next year or so, you can get some of them.

8) Once you pay for the antenna and get a digital tuner box, it's all FREE.

That's a quick handful of reasons. There are more, but that gets you started.
But seriously, just to make sure you don't lose reception in the rain or bad weather, I'd seriously get the larger antenna if I were you. Just a thought...

Gilbert
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post #364 of 12165 Old 04-25-2007, 10:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GG386 View Post

O.K., now I get it!

LOL! Well, what that says is that they are allocating 14.8 megabits/second for WGN-DT, 3.2 megabits/sec for "The Tube". The rest is overhead, data for your tuner box, etc.

For a 1080i stream, that is not high, I agree. For a 1080i feed, you want to have 16 MB at least to assure you a great picture, unless you have the latest encoders, which can fudge sufficiently to fool you. Maybe WGN has them now. Outside of Cubs broadcasts, I haven't seen any problems, so I bet they got new encoders. That would also explain why "The Tube" looks great now.

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post #365 of 12165 Old 04-25-2007, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by CaBo0sE View Post

I don't know how The Tube was before, but compared to WMAQ (the only other 1080i channel with a sub), WGN's bitrate for their main channel is kinda low.

Yeah, that would sure explain it alright. I did notice some pretty bad blocking on The Tube last night also, so I guess I just hadn't been watching it enough. It was during a badly recorded video, and I've been seeing more newer, really well recorded ones more recently whenever I've gone past it.

The Sox game on 26-1 last night showed a little blocking during those fast scene transitions, just like 9-1, but not so bad to the point it made it really unpleasant to watch overall - but it was still a bit annoying to me, because I'm just pretty sensitive to that stuff, I guess.

(Gilbert: Remember, mklawz doesn't need to get a separate OTA tuner if he's got a Dish HD tuner - unless they've removed the ATSC tuner from the newer models, which I don't believe they have. Haven't really kept track, though.)
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post #366 of 12165 Old 04-26-2007, 04:35 AM
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Another reason I'm reluctant to get a bigger antenna is because my neighbor saw me installing this thing and told me of a 'situation' they had. The FAA (or someone related) showed up at their doorstep out of the blue and stated they were getting interference from their house. They discovered it was the antenna in the attic (which they didn't even know they had). Apparently we are right on the flight paths for DuPage County airport.

Anyone know anything of this? I dont want to cause any plane crashes just so I can get another channel!!!
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post #367 of 12165 Old 04-26-2007, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mklawz View Post

Another reason I'm reluctant to get a bigger antenna is because my neighbor saw me installing this thing and told me of a 'situation' they had. The FAA (or someone related) showed up at their doorstep out of the blue and stated they were getting interference from their house. They discovered it was the antenna in the attic (which they didn't even know they had). Apparently we are right on the flight paths for DuPage County airport.

Anyone know anything of this? I dont want to cause any plane crashes just so I can get another channel!!!

Unless you are right at the end of the runway and have height issues I wouldn't see a problem. If they're getting interferrence due to OTA antenna's then they need to redesign their systems.

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post #368 of 12165 Old 04-26-2007, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mklawz View Post

Another reason I'm reluctant to get a bigger antenna is because my neighbor saw me installing this thing and told me of a 'situation' they had. The FAA (or someone related) showed up at their doorstep out of the blue and stated they were getting interference from their house. They discovered it was the antenna in the attic (which they didn't even know they had). Apparently we are right on the flight paths for DuPage County airport.

Anyone know anything of this? I dont want to cause any plane crashes just so I can get another channel!!!

Don't worry about it. If it's in your attic, and it causes that type of interference...as HVS said, the problem is on THEIR end, not yours, and I very seriously question the people, if that was indeed the problem, who had a meeting to say "Hey! Let's install THIS system!". Seriously, don't worry about it, and get that thing up there. You'll be glad you did.

Ramm---yep, I know he has his own tuner on the Dish, I was just making a broader comment and it didn't come out quite right, I guess.

Gilbert
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post #369 of 12165 Old 04-26-2007, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mklawz View Post

Another reason I'm reluctant to get a bigger antenna is because my neighbor saw me installing this thing and told me of a 'situation' they had. The FAA (or someone related) showed up at their doorstep out of the blue and stated they were getting interference from their house. They discovered it was the antenna in the attic (which they didn't even know they had). Apparently we are right on the flight paths for DuPage County airport.

Anyone know anything of this? I dont want to cause any plane crashes just so I can get another channel!!!


Your neighbor may be right, but when did the FAA or ( Jones Intercable ? ) told your neighbor that back in the 80's or 90's ? Your neighbor may have a Cable TV signal leak to TV antenna and cause the FAA person to knock on his door.

Cable TV signals can cause havocs for the big plane's navigation equipments, not the OTA antenna but Cable TV signals can because certain frequency on the Cable is near the frequency for the navigations equipment for the landing. Back in the 80's when cable TV was coming out in the southern Wis and in Northern IL people was stealing the cable service and was splicing the cable TV coax into the coax that was feed from the antenna to the TV set. So with the cable TV signals spliced into OTA coax then it feeding the antenna also and that was transmitting over the OTA Antenna and causing problem for the plane's navigations equipment. There is a navigation transmitter shack in northwest of Elkhorn for the O'Hare landing pattern.

Maybe Gilbert, Rammitinski, hvs10trk and greywolf would remember the days when the FAA, FCC and the Cable co was driving around in the neighborhood with a funny looking handheld antenna and pointing at the house, and see them knocking on the doors and enter the house and then came back out with the illegal cable box and coax cable with the bad spliced. Sorry guys you may be too young those good old days or did this bring back the younger days . Back in the mid 80's there too was allot of upgrades of splitters and coax cable they were using unshielded splitters and RG-59 coax that another reason the cable TV went to RG-59 Tri-shield coax cable, but now most go to RG-6 Quad shield coax cable for better shielding of leak from the Cable TV signals.

-Willie
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post #370 of 12165 Old 04-26-2007, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sebenste View Post

Don't worry about it. If it's in your attic, and it causes that type of interference...as HVS said, the problem is on THEIR end, not yours, and I very seriously question the people, if that was indeed the problem, who had a meeting to say "Hey! Let's install THIS system!". Seriously, don't worry about it, and get that thing up there. You'll be glad you did.

Ramm---yep, I know he has his own tuner on the Dish, I was just making a broader comment and it didn't come out quite right, I guess.

Don't blow them off too quickly. More than once we have tracked interference to a rogue preamplifier that goes into oscillation and transmits a bogey on a an undesired frequency (and actually transmits outwards using its antenna).

When the undesired frequency falls on our OTA frequency it causes interference to viewers, which is bad for us. When the undesired frequency falls on a FAA channel for pilots or navigation, the spectrum police hunt you down.

These kinds of unintended transmissions also happen due to "egress" from cable systems, and the FCC requires stringent monitoring to ensure signals inside cable systems don't leak out and interfere with licensed users of the spectrum.

I even had a neighbor with a dilapidated antenna which put out random burps which interfered with reception of local OTA ch. 69 and Chicago ch. 9 and hunting that down was a nightmare.

It happened coincident with 9/11 and I first diagnosed as stealth radar. But one day they took down their tower and poof the problems disappeared.
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post #371 of 12165 Old 04-26-2007, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by George Molnar View Post

Don't blow them off too quickly. More than once we have tracked interference to a rogue preamplifier that goes into oscillation and transmits a bogey on a an undesired frequency (and actually transmits outwards using its antenna).

When the undesired frequency falls on our OTA frequency it causes interference to viewers, which is bad for us. When the undesired frequency falls on a FAA channel for pilots or navigation, the spectrum police hunt you down.

These kinds of unintended transmissions also happen due to "egress" from cable systems, and the FCC requires stringent monitoring to ensure signals inside cable systems don't leak out and interfere with licensed users of the spectrum.

I even had a neighbor with a dilapidated antenna which put out random burps which interfered with reception of local OTA ch. 69 and Chicago ch. 9 and hunting that down was a nightmare.

It happened coincident with 9/11 and I first diagnosed as stealth radar. But one day they took down their tower and poof the problems disappeared.

Was that because of a bad preamp? I think it was Winegard that had a recalled stinkeroo back in the 90s, and wrought havoc on the ham bands. That, thankfully, has long been corrected. George is correct...but...if you use RG-6 cable, an attic antenna, or a rooftop in at least decent condition, a Winegard or ChannelMaster off-the-shelf preamp, you should be good to go these days.

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post #372 of 12165 Old 04-26-2007, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mklawz View Post

Another reason I'm reluctant to get a bigger antenna is because my neighbor saw me installing this thing....

What - does he have x-ray vision or something?
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post #373 of 12165 Old 04-26-2007, 11:36 AM
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What - does he have x-ray vision or something?

No. I popped the cable out from the upper level soffit, run it down along the back of my house, (tucked in behind the corner siding), and then popped it back in near the foundation. So I had a big extension ladder out. And with the way our backyards are over here, you get noooo privacy. At least not until my trees and shrubs get going.
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post #374 of 12165 Old 04-26-2007, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mklawz View Post

No. I popped the cable out from the upper level soffit, run it down along the back of my house, (tucked in behind the corner siding), and then popped it back in near the foundation. So I had a big extension ladder out. And with the way our backyards are over here, you get noooo privacy. At least not until my trees and shrubs get going.

Well, he shouldn't care if it runs to the attic. It's up to you...but I'm just trying to get you to do it right, so that, when weather fronts roll through, WGN doesn't go phffft on you during a game.

P.S. If he says anything, show him the picture on your HDTV and tell him that's from an antenna.

Gilbert
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post #375 of 12165 Old 04-26-2007, 11:50 AM
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Yeah, really. Tell him to mind his own, damned business. You're not breakin' any rules.

FCC rules (laws) state that no HOA can prevent you from putting up an antenna, even ouside on the roof. If he gives you a problem, just hand him (and/or the HOA) a copy of them. And he especially has no business at all giving a rat's a$$ about you putting one in your attic.
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post #376 of 12165 Old 04-26-2007, 11:59 AM
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Chill boys. I never said he was being nosey. *She* just asked what I was doing and then she proceeded to tell me about that situation with the FAA or whoever. I was just stating that we have no privacy because you joked about the x-ray vision.

Now the old man across from us in the front yard. Now he's another story. He yelled at my FIL the day we moved in because he parked in front of his house. Same old man told my next door neighbor to not have any more garage sales because it brings in the riff-raff. Now this guy needs to be put in his place!
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post #377 of 12165 Old 04-27-2007, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillieAntenna View Post

Maybe Gilbert, Rammitinski, hvs10trk and greywolf would remember the days when the FAA, FCC and the Cable co was driving around in the neighborhood with a funny looking handheld antenna and pointing at the house, and see them knocking on the doors and enter the house and then came back out with the illegal cable box and coax cable with the bad spliced. Sorry guys you may be too young those good old days or did this bring back the younger days . Back in the mid 80's there too was allot of upgrades of splitters and coax cable they were using unshielded splitters and RG-59 coax that another reason the cable TV went to RG-59 Tri-shield coax cable, but now most go to RG-6 Quad shield coax cable for better shielding of leak from the Cable TV signals.

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Used to work in cable. They were using small airplanes for a while too.

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post #378 of 12165 Old 04-27-2007, 11:17 AM
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Used to work in cable. They were using small airplanes for a while too.


That right they did do that too up here, the plane find the hot area then the ground people pinpoint the source of the leak.
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post #379 of 12165 Old 04-27-2007, 01:39 PM
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Some pirates would use taps instead of splitters by mistake and enjoy the programming while pretty much destroying the paying customer's signal. I had a friend who would get premium channels by putting a paper clip through a vent hole in his cable box. Those were interesting times.

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post #380 of 12165 Old 04-27-2007, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mklawz View Post

what's "artifacting"?

Today I was able to view my first game in HD. Pretty good I must say, I noticed some blurriness here and there when they moved the camera, like it took a brief moment to come into focus. Is that 'artifacting'? I dont know this stuff...

So do most people who have the OTA locals end up cancelling their locals from their provider? Or do poeple keep them for "back-up" or some kind? I feel I should hang on to them for a while.

Also, as Gilbert and I discussed the issue with WBBM not coming in with my antenna. I still dont know if it's worth spending another $50 on a better antenna. I really dont watch that much tube, I just want my ballgames now and then. I just can't come up with anything on that channel that I would watch. So I just dunno...

What kind of TV? If it's an LCD or plasma, depending on the processing internal to the unit, you'll see things like that.
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post #381 of 12165 Old 04-28-2007, 01:52 AM
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What kind of TV? If it's an LCD or plasma, depending on the processing internal to the unit, you'll see things like that.

Naw, it was definitely a "semi-macroblocking blurring" in the signal. I see it clearly all the time on my display, during every Cub home game on WGN-DT. I use to even see it on my 32" analog CRT.
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post #382 of 12165 Old 04-28-2007, 06:35 AM
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WGN has had this problem since they first installed HD equipment about 5 years ago. I had a 38" CRT HDTV then, and Smallville really looked bad in HD with these motion artifacts. We had to wait until HDNet started showing Smallville to see it displayed properly.

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post #383 of 12165 Old 04-29-2007, 12:24 AM
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If everyone wants to know FYI
WFLD FOX News has no plans for News in HD

I was at the power substation that blow up on Harlem and higgins today and i asked the News truck driver
and said its expensive to produce the news in HD


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post #384 of 12165 Old 04-29-2007, 06:10 AM
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Anyone else have their site crash your Internet Explorer? Their web guys claim they know of a problem between their site and IE7. From the email I received from them it doesn't sound like their trying to fix it. They're just waiting for Microsoft to "magicly" solve the problem. If they don't fix it soon, they'll have less people navigating to their site.

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post #385 of 12165 Old 04-29-2007, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by surf_fun85 View Post

If everyone wants to know FYI
WFLD FOX News has no plans for News in HD

I was at the power substation that blow up on Harlem and higgins today and i asked the News truck driver
and said its expensive to produce the news in HD

I do agree that it's expensive. It's come down it price quite a bit in the past years. We're thinking about converting over a control room and a studio. The video switcher is the biggest kick in the pants.

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post #386 of 12165 Old 04-29-2007, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by UncD2000 View Post

WGN has had this problem since they first installed HD equipment about 5 years ago. I had a 38" CRT HDTV then, and Smallville really looked bad in HD with these motion artifacts. We had to wait until HDNet started showing Smallville to see it displayed properly.

Saw it during the Sox game last night.

"Celebrating 15 years of searching for new and inovative ways to completely screw up television"

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post #387 of 12165 Old 04-29-2007, 09:38 AM
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We're converting over a control room and studio. The video switcher is the biggest kick in the pants.

Which Tv Station ?


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post #388 of 12165 Old 04-29-2007, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by WillieAntenna View Post

Maybe Gilbert, Rammitinski, hvs10trk and greywolf would remember the days when the FAA, FCC and the Cable co was driving around in the neighborhood with a funny looking handheld antenna and pointing at the house, and see them knocking on the doors and enter the house and then came back out with the illegal cable box and coax cable with the bad spliced. Sorry guys you may be too young those good old days or did this bring back the younger days .
-Willie

The old days are still around...a couple a three weeks ago the Charter cable van was slowly cruising up the street in my neighborhood and stopped just past my house and I saw the tech waltz out with a pistol grip looking thing and then proceed to spread the antenna's to either side of it so it looked like a T and point it across the street and then to my neighbors house and then he walked toward the back of their house so I went to the back and saw him fiddling for a few minutes right where the coax enters the house. When he left I walked over to see what he had done and he replaced both ends of coax with new connectors and switched out the grounding balun. So they still hunt for cable pirates the old fashion way although my neighbor is a paying customer that just happened to have leaky connectors....

There are 10 types of people who understand binary - those that do... and those that don't.
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post #389 of 12165 Old 04-29-2007, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by hvs10trk View Post

Saw it during the Sox game last night.

Me too. It was pretty bad at times, but still just a tad less so than the Cub games, it seemed.

Anyway, I switched the output of my Sony tuner to 720p, and even though it was still there during the most susceptable times, it got MUCH, MUCH better. To the point where it wasn't so annoying anymore.

Whenever I turn the tuner on, it always defaults back to HDMI out, which is native. But if I notice any blocking, and the station is 1080i, it gets a lot better after I switch to 720p.

I realize that some of you don't have that option, but if you do, and you haven't tried it, see if that helps any.

Being in progressive mode is probably one of the reasons why the games look better on WCIU-DT.

And hvs10trk - kudos to the WWME program director or whoever's decision it was to add the shows you have recently - I about fell out of my chair when I noticed they were showing "Night Gallery" last night! That's one of my old favorites. Those old, "Peter Gunn" episodes are great, too!
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post #390 of 12165 Old 04-30-2007, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by pretzelkid View Post

The old days are still around...a couple a three weeks ago the Charter cable van was slowly cruising up the street in my neighborhood and stopped just past my house and I saw the tech waltz out with a pistol grip looking thing and then proceed to spread the antenna's to either side of it so it looked like a T and point it across the street and then to my neighbors house and then he walked toward the back of their house so I went to the back and saw him fiddling for a few minutes right where the coax enters the house. When he left I walked over to see what he had done and he replaced both ends of coax with new connectors and switched out the grounding balun. So they still hunt for cable pirates the old fashion way although my neighbor is a paying customer that just happened to have leaky connectors....


Oh yea you will see them around now and then. Your neighbor just might had a older style connectors that was not good but at the time they were the best one out on the market now they are using or have been for couple years are T&B snap n seal connectors which is way better then the old Raycom connectors they come loose after years of being outdoors. Just about are you are is where all the big jetliner start their landing pattern on one of the runway to O'hare and just south of you actullay just south of Walworth is the flight landing for Rockford airport.

Did you ever get Rockford WQRF 39 DT when they boosted the power ? Is WMTV 15 still beats out WGN for siginal?

-Willie
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