The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread - Page 103 - AVS Forum
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post #3061 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by quango View Post

I don't think there's a legal issue, but network contracts may not allow one major network station to carry another network on a subchannel.

There are a few subchannel is another network stations out there ... I don't believe the networks care as long as their programs are carried.
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post #3062 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Is it legal for two different stations to use different sub-channels of the same transmitter? I know this has happened on a temporary basis but I'm wondering if it can be done on a permanent basis?
Chuck

I don't know how permanent it is, but KQED 9-1 from Sutro has KTEH on 9-2, while KTEH 54-1 from the South Bay has KQED on 54-2. KFSF 66-1 transmitting from Sutro has KDTV on 66-2. (They don't reciprocate. KFSF is not on 14-2.) Down in the Salinas-Monterey DMA KQET 25-1 has KTEH on 25-2 and KSMS 67-1 has low power KDJT analog on 67-2. (KDJT doesn't have digital and they haven't applied for it.)

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post #3063 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quango View Post

I don't think there's a legal issue, but network contracts may not allow one major network station to carry another network on a subchannel.

It's pretty common once you start getting into the 100+ DMAs that don't have enough full-power stations to cover all the networks. One of the best examples is the Sherman, TX/Ada, OK DMA. The DMA only has 2 full-power stations, and prior to digital, only CBS and NBC were available locally. Now thanks to DTV's multicasting abilities, KXII carries CBS HD on 12.1, MNT SD on 12.2, and Fox HD on 12.3. KTEN carries NBC HD on 10.1 and CW SD on 10.2.
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post #3064 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 02:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quango View Post

I don't think there's a legal issue, but network contracts may not allow one major network station to carry another network on a subchannel.

I cannot imagine why not. In some areas, in the past, two national networks shared an affiliate (one primary, the programming for which was aired in prime time, and the other secondary, the programming for which was aired at other times).
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post #3065 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by justalurker View Post

There are a few subchannel is another network stations out there ... I don't believe the networks care as long as their programs are carried.

Here in Gainesville both the CW and MyTV channels are only available as SD subchannels of other networks.

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post #3066 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 07:15 AM
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DTV Notes
Converter Box Program Still Backed Up
NTIA still doesn't have money needed to free up growing waiting list
By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 2/26/2009 7:53:33 AM MT

More than a third of TV stations have pulled the plug on full-power analog, and more could start to do so within the next two-and-a-half-weeks, but the coupon program remains backed up.

At press time, the National Telecommunications & Information Administration's DTV-to-analog converter box coupon program still did not have the money it needed to free up its growing waiting list-4.3 million applications at last count-though it was still looking for word to come any time.

"We still do not have access to the funding," said NTIA spokesman Bart Forbes. "There is nothing new to report at this time."

Just last week on C-SPAN's Communicators series, FCC Commissioner Jonathan Adelstein said that the coupon program "is up and running again."

The program has been running, but at a snail's pace, with coupons sent out only when other coupons expire. NTIA can't start sending out the coupons en masse until it get's access to the $650 million set aside for that purpose in the economic stimulus package, and it can't get that access until the Office of Management and Budget gives it the go-ahead. The OMB press office had not returned several calls for comment on the status of that go-ahead.

Getting the waiting list cleared up was a driving force behind moving the DTV hard date from Feb. 17 to June 12.

President Barack Obama signed the bill into law on, appropriately enough, Feb. 17, with NTIA expecting OMB to sign off in about a week.

NTIA has said it will prioritize coupon requests for analog-only households if, once the money is freed up, there is any further slowdown in distribution due to the volume of requests. NTIA has said it will take two-three weeks to clear up the current backlog.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/art..._Backed_Up.php

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post #3067 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 08:04 AM
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While I am not yet caught up on all the analog ends, I have uploaded an updated spreadsheet to RE.

# 1115: operating Post-Transition facilities
# 165: with maximized Construction Permits but otherwise ready (included above)
# 695: to end analog operations early (before 6/12/09)
# 554: have already ended (or will not commence) analog operations (included above)*

There are about 130 stations that I still need to confirm ended analog operations.


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post #3068 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 10:28 AM
 
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From the FCC Daily Digest:

WE2XXI ADAPTRUM, INC. 0460-EX-PL-2008
New experimental to operate in 174 - 216 MHz, 470 - 608 MHz and 614 - 698 MHz for testing of white space devices.
Mobile: Within State of CA

--------------------------------
Funny, I thought WSD were limited to UHF only....why are they getting experimental in the VHF range?? There goes any DX of DTV as we know it.
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post #3069 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 12:30 PM
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In the R&O adopted by FCC on Nov 4th on the White Space devices(see paragraphs 35~51), FCC decided to implement the WSD's on an unlicensed rather than licensed basis. I do not know if they are going to allow, or have yet developed any specific rules for any higher power Licensed White Space devices ---

However :

Section 15.707 "Permissible Channels of operation", (a) and (b) of The new rules for Unlicensed White space polluters(which go into effect march 19, 2009), now called "TVBDs" (TV Band devices) in FCC speak says :

Quote:


(a) All TVBDs are permitted to operate in the frequency bands 512–608 MHz and 614–698 MHz, except that in the 13 metropolitan areas listed § 90.303(a) of this chapter and nearby areas where private land mobile services and commercial land mobile services are authorized by waiver, operation of TVBDs is prohibited on the first channel on each side of TV channel 37 (608–614MHz) that is available at all locations within the protection range of the coordinates of each such area as set forth in § 15.712(d). These channels will be listed in the TV bands database.

(b) Operation in the bands 54–60 MHz, 76–88 MHz, 174–216 MHz, and 470–512 MHz is permitted only for fixed TVBDs that communicate only with other fixed TVBDs.

More info on the rules and links to the Documents involved can be found in The white space threads in Technical area at AVSforum ....

Jeff
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post #3070 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trbarry View Post

Here in Gainesville both the CW and MyTV channels are only available as SD subchannels of other networks.

- Tom

Exactly, and maybe ironically, Fox owns MyNet but it's a sub channel on a CBS station here even though we have a FOX station without real programming on their sub channel.

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post #3071 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Touchtone View Post

From the FCC Daily Digest:

WE2XXI ADAPTRUM, INC. 0460-EX-PL-2008
New experimental to operate in 174 - 216 MHz, 470 - 608 MHz and 614 - 698 MHz for testing of white space devices.
Mobile: Within State of CA

--------------------------------
Funny, I thought WSD were limited to UHF only....why are they getting experimental in the VHF range?? There goes any DX of DTV as we know it.

I think this is as crazy as the Citzen's Band of the 1960s. Start with loose rules, go to no rules (unlicensed in this case).

Because how long will it take if white space takes off for devices to end up in the wrong areas on a channel that should be protected? No long I guess.

It could not only end DXing, but it could end fringe reception within a stations contour.

I wonder how long it will take before all this market regulated non-sense is put to rest? One time bomb after another keeps going off from previous administrations.

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post #3072 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 03:11 PM
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By John Eggerton -- Broadcasting & Cable, 2/26/2009 7:53:33 AM MT

More than a third of TV stations have pulled the plug on full-power analog, and more could start to do so within the next two-and-a-half-weeks, but the coupon program remains backed up.

Actually no more shutdowns until April (unless some station snuck in a 30 day notice before the 20th and presses the legal issue). The rules changed (again).
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post #3073 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

We have another PRM.

Entravision-owned KDCU-DT, a construction permit for DT-46 in Derby/Wichita, KS, has requested to move to channel 31. It's the latest chapter in an upcoming game of musical chairs in the market.

KWCH-DT 19 is moving to 12.

KWCH bought CW affiliate KSCW and decided to use the channel 19 stuff for it so the stations can be co-located. So they got their post-transition digital moved from 31 to 19.

So now, KDCU wants buy the channel 31 gear that KSCW is abandoning, so they want to relocate their digital to channel 31.

Anyone confused yet?

- Trip

Makes perfect sense to me, and it will give KDCU a better facility than their DT-46 permit is for, including a top-mounted instead of side-mounted antenna.

Thank you, Trip, for keeping us up on what's happening.
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post #3074 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 10:16 PM
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TV Technology article about channel 6.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/75206

Ron

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post #3075 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 10:27 PM
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Thanks for that link, Dr1394. Very interesting. I especially liked this:

"We're in an area where there are a lot of mountains and the predictions indicate that we'll get better coverage as a V. Low-band signals tend to bend over the horizon."

Emphasis mine. Predictions mean nothing. Real world experience shows the predictions are crap.

Oh well, they'll learn the hard way.

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post #3076 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 10:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

TV Technology article about channel 6.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/75206

Ron


I love how WRGB thinks they can break the rules with a vertical pol. FM signal on 87.75 (which is not an exact FM freq)...they wont hold a license for it and will get fined by the FCC for doing that.....DUH!!!
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post #3077 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 10:36 PM
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Quote:


WRGB's Lass may have found a solution.

"We have a plan to continue operating on 87.7 after we go digital," he said. "We think that it's possible to operate with a vertically polarized analog FM audio carrier when we go back to ch. 6 for DTV. That signal will be horizontally polarized, of course, and there should be enough cross pol isolation to make it work."

Madness...

Also, that FCC map for WPVI is a joke. Low-VHF looks great on modeling software, but the real world is very different. WPVI is likely to lose many areas closer in, especially for current rabbit ear users. Low-VHF and rabbit ears don't mix, it's bad enough with a full low-bander.

Quote:


"Our original allocation was for 3.81 kW ERP," Volpe said. "We went up as far as we could without causing interference problems—to 7.56 kW ERP. Right now I'm putting a shade under 4 kW from the transmitter into a standby antenna. When we make the switch to the main antenna I'll only need 1.7 kW. I'm not operating a transmitter; I'm running a hair dryer."

Just don't try running a hair dryer when you are trying to watch TV.


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post #3078 of 7371 Old 02-26-2009, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Touchtone View Post

I love how WRGB thinks they can break the rules with a vertical pol. FM signal on 87.75 (which is not an exact FM freq)...they wont hold a license for it and will get fined by the FCC for doing that.....DUH!!!

From the article:

Quote:


"We're really interested in proving this concept and are thinking of applying for an experimental license," Lass said.

Good luck with that, WRGB!

This is the very same situation Trip and I brought up in this very thread earlier this month.
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post #3079 of 7371 Old 02-27-2009, 05:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

Quote:
WRGB's Lass may have found a solution.

"We have a plan to continue operating on 87.7 after we go digital," he said. "We think that it's possible to operate with a vertically polarized analog FM audio carrier when we go back to ch. 6 for DTV. That signal will be horizontally polarized, of course, and there should be enough cross pol isolation to make it work."


Madness...

Also, that FCC map for WPVI is a joke. Low-VHF looks great on modeling software, but the real world is very different. WPVI is likely to lose many areas closer in, especially for current rabbit ear users. Low-VHF and rabbit ears don't mix, it's bad enough with a full low-bander.

Madness indeed.....not to mention illegal.....when they shut down analog, they no longer have the legal right to xmit any FM carrier on 87.75 period....
HOW STUPID can they be!!!!!
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post #3080 of 7371 Old 02-27-2009, 07:59 AM
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You know it might work if they are careful about the amount of power they run. I am sure the FCC could issue an experimental license for them to try it out. If it worked on channel 6, it would also work on any channel. TV sound only receivers are available in a few forms now. It might actually help in an occasional drop out situation to preserve sound reception. This has always been the most annoying aspect to short drop outs for me.
The trouble they might find is that people using using rabbitears might pick up both polarizations. This would make the digital reception difficult.
John
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post #3081 of 7371 Old 02-27-2009, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctdish View Post

The trouble they might find is that people using using rabbitears might pick up both polarizations. This would make the digital reception difficult.
John

This is the big problem. Polarization shifts and antennas receiving both polarizations. In my last apartment, I was on the wrong side of the building, and had to receive my signals from a reflection off the hill out my window. It had a polarization shift that caused me to have to vertically polarize my antenna to eliminate dropouts.

If there had been some foreign invader in the vertical component, I would likely have gotten nothing.

This idea will not work.

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post #3082 of 7371 Old 02-27-2009, 08:51 AM
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I had an analog channel 10 before Feb 17 that came with only slight snow. In a different direction I had a digital channel 10 that was solid about 75% of the time. When aimed at the digital 10 I could still hear the analog 10 audio on an FM receiver with a little noise. If this works the channel 6 audio should be OK since the receivers will not have the stronger analog video to deal with.
John
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post #3083 of 7371 Old 02-27-2009, 08:59 AM
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The idea of broadcasting a polarized audio only signal on 87.7 MHz is an uninteresting one, but I can see where it would result in fringe range viewers losing the digital lock or closer range viewers losing reception in the polarization bounce scenarios such as Trip posted. But if WRGB wants to test it, assuming the FCC will grant them an experimental license and the FCC might do just that, they should first get the DT 6 broadcast up and establish who can get it. Then try the experimental 87.7 MHz audio signal with public announcements so anyone who loses DT 6 reception can contact the station. Can't test this with just 1 or 2 different ATSC tuners and 1 or 2 antennas at only a couple of locations. So many variables here where, for example, some ATSC tuners may be ok, but other brands will choke with a FM signal buried in the ATSC broadcast.

However, what do people hear on a analog FM radio for the frequencies that fall into the DT 6 frequency range? Increase in white noise? Falcon_77's spreadsheet shows only ONE pre-transition DT 6 station, WDTV-DT CBS 5 in WV with a 0.1 kW DT 6 signal. But even that does not show up in FCC database. There are a few DT stations on VHF 5, but almost none on VHF 6. So there is very little real world experience with DT 6 broadcasting. So we (and the industry) really don't know how well WPVI-DT on 6 is going to work. Brief trial broadcasts late at night when the noise environment is lowest really don't prove much. June 13 will be an interesting day.
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post #3084 of 7371 Old 02-27-2009, 10:03 AM
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The FCC granted WNEP-DT's request to relocate from channel 49 to 50 today.

- Trip

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post #3085 of 7371 Old 02-27-2009, 11:04 AM
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FCC announces rules are now in effect allowing for distributed transmission systems (DTS)

Stations wishing to apply for such a system can now do so by filing for a single construction permit.

From the public notice:

"DTS transmitters will not be separately licensed, but will be part of a linked group that will be covered by one construction permit and license. Stations must request authority to construct DTS facilities by filing a single application that includes either (1) a main transmitter and one or more additional transmitters that will collectively use the DTS technology, or (2) two or more smaller DTS transmitters. In addition, a station may add to its DTS network of transmitters using a minor change application for a construction permit to change a licensed DTV facility, or for a modified construction permit to change a DTV facility authorized by a construction permit. Stations that received Special Temporary Authority to use DTS under the interim policy are reminded to obtain permanent authorization now that the final rules are in effect."

Source: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...A-09-528A1.pdf

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post #3086 of 7371 Old 02-27-2009, 12:37 PM
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I was wondering why we had seen so few DTS apps as yet.

However, the no cherry-picking provisions may greatly limit the potential of DTS. Considering how few channels are available for digital translators in major markets, DTS would probably be the preferred gap-fillers.

Also, I remember reading that digital translators have to prove that they cannot operate on 2-6 before they can use 52-59. Is that correct?


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post #3087 of 7371 Old 02-27-2009, 03:02 PM
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Not sure what cherry picking applies to. If the on channel DTS stuff works stations don't need to find another channel.
John
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post #3088 of 7371 Old 02-27-2009, 05:25 PM
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As I understand it, Cherry Picking means that stations can't just up DTS transmitters where they want to improve coverage. They need to cover the entire contour.


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post #3089 of 7371 Old 02-27-2009, 05:28 PM
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Is something going on with the FCC TV Query Database? I'm finding some records that have simply vanished, such as KSFV-CA and KDUH's licensed records. Those are the first two I've looked up tonight and they are both missing records.


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post #3090 of 7371 Old 02-27-2009, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

Is something going on with the FCC TV Query Database? I'm finding some records that have simply vanished, such as KSFV-CA and KDUH's licensed records. Those are the first two I've looked up tonight and they are both missing records.

Same here. I put in call letters of one station. It didn't come up at all. Then I tried another station and the information popped up, but the information for the post transition channel is not with that station. I have no idea what is going on.

NashDigie signing off.

NashDigie signing off.


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