The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread - Page 163 - AVS Forum
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post #4861 of 7370 Old 09-11-2009, 08:10 PM
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Channel 2 has NEVER worked on rabbit ears. Was under 20 miles from KTCA 2 in the Twin Cities back in the day. Nothing was more frustrating than trying to pick them up w/ rabbit ears. Outdoor antenna in the garage attic solved that.

Fill-in translators for the outer areas would be a better fix, but let's face it, there's more money for stations getting carriage fees from cable and satellite. OTA is just a legal requirement to be provided as cheaply as possible.

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post #4862 of 7370 Old 09-11-2009, 09:20 PM
 
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Originally Posted by iowegian3 View Post

Channel 2 has NEVER worked on rabbit ears.

Well let's see anyone know of any rabbit ears that are over 72 inches( 36 inches on each element )? I don't. Each one would have to be 51 inches each or 102 inches to for Ch 2.
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post #4863 of 7370 Old 09-12-2009, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by iowegian3 View Post

Fill-in translators for the outer areas would be a better fix, but let's face it, there's more money for stations getting carriage fees from cable and satellite. OTA is just a legal requirement to be provided as cheaply as possible.

It depends on the market. Because of both geography and economics, a station in a market like Bangor has a high percentage of rural OTA viewers, and ignoring them or marginalizing them would not be wise, especially if your competitors are reaching them effectively. Even if cable/satellite penetration is 80-85% in such a market, I don't think a station like WBRZ can afford to shrug off 15-20% of its viewing audience. It's far more than "just a legal requirement" to many stations.
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post #4864 of 7370 Old 09-12-2009, 08:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post

It depends on the market. Because of both geography and economics, a station in a market like Bangor has a high percentage of rural OTA viewers, and ignoring them or marginalizing them would not be wise, especially if your competitors are reaching them effectively. Even if cable/satellite penetration is 80-85% in such a market, I don't think a station like WBRZ can afford to shrug off 15-20% of its viewing audience. It's far more than "just a legal requirement" to many stations.

Isn't like 15% of all households are OTA? Now maybe I'm just not smart enough on this topic but since Disney owns ABC wouldn't it behoove them to try to gain that 15% by putting says ABC Family or one of their Disney channels on a subchannel on ABC stations? Sure they're not getting a fee like they would from cable or satellite, but they aren't getting those fees anyways from OTA households. They would be gaining eyeballs which means they can charge higher advertising fees
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post #4865 of 7370 Old 09-12-2009, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

Well let's see anyone know of any rabbit ears that are over 72 inches( 36 inches on each element )? I don't. Each one would have to be 51 inches each or 102 inches to for Ch 2.

I haven't seen rabbit ears that are long enough for 2/3. Most seem to be designed for 5/6 or FM. The ones on the HDTVi are 42" on each side. I've heard of the metal (aluminum foil) ball trick at the end, but haven't tried it and have no need to now.

More comments have been added. I like the one that says we can send signals to (satellites) in space, but not 7.7 miles away. More blood is boiling. There's always watching TV on the Internet...

WLBZ should have known better than to hype up channel 2 at least. "We were assigned 2 by the FCC" would have been less damaging I would think, even if that doesn't really tell the story.
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post #4866 of 7370 Old 09-12-2009, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

Isn't like 15% of all households are OTA? Now maybe I'm just not smart enough on this topic but since Disney owns ABC wouldn't it behoove them to try to gain that 15% by putting says ABC Family or one of their Disney channels on a subchannel on ABC stations? Sure they're not getting a fee like they would from cable or satellite, but they aren't getting those fees anyways from OTA households. They would be gaining eyeballs which means they can charge higher advertising fees

And how do you think cable and satellite providers would react to such actions?

There would not only be outrage, but real threats to cease carriage..

Viewers pay for cable and satellite not just to improve reception, but most outside of urban areas, buy those services to receive "cable" programming.

If such programming were readily available OTA, there would be less of an inducement for viewers to pay those heavy monthly bills.
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post #4867 of 7370 Old 09-12-2009, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

since Disney owns ABC wouldn't it behoove them to try to gain that 15% by putting says ABC Family or one of their Disney channels on a subchannel on ABC stations? Sure they're not getting a fee like they would from cable or satellite, but they aren't getting those fees anyways from OTA households. They would be gaining eyeballs which means they can charge higher advertising fees

But then Disney probably wouldn't be able to negotiate as large a carriage fee as they currently get from cable and satellite companies, which would argue that some viewers might leave them for OTA because of it.

(added: SnellKrell beat me to it!)
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post #4868 of 7370 Old 09-12-2009, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

Well let's see anyone know of any rabbit ears that are over 72 inches( 36 inches on each element )? I don't. Each one would have to be 51 inches each or 102 inches to for Ch 2.

I don't know if 300 ohm twinlead is even still made, but a folded dipole as we used for FM would be inexpensive and offer moderate gain. Then a balun to 75 ohms ...
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post #4869 of 7370 Old 09-12-2009, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by gbynum View Post

I don't know if 300 ohm twinlead is even still made, but a folded dipole as we used for FM would be inexpensive and offer moderate gain. Then a balun to 75 ohms ...

Or a quad loop for that matter, cut to whatever channel is desired. I know DXers who were stuck in apartments used to make those for picking up lo-band e-skip. Doesn't have to be fancy -- even just lamp cord can be used, tacked up on a wall facing the general direction of the transmitter. I don't know the actual specs, but I seem to recall it provides a bit more gain over a folded dipole.
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post #4870 of 7370 Old 09-12-2009, 06:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SnellKrell View Post

And how do you think cable and satellite providers would react to such actions?

There would not only be outrage, but real threats to cease carriage..

Viewers pay for cable and satellite not just to improve reception, but most outside of urban areas, buy those services to receive "cable" programming.

If such programming were readily available OTA, there would be less of an inducement for viewers to pay those heavy monthly bills.

Who cares how they would react. It's Disney's programing they can do what they want.

Every major cable company and both DirecTv and Dish carry HSN yet in many areas it's available over OTA. Where are the threats? Where is the outrage? for example in Nashville it's available on UHF 24. Yet Comcast still carries it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtbell View Post

But then Disney probably wouldn't be able to negotiate as large a carriage fee as they currently get from cable and satellite companies, which would argue that some viewers might leave them for OTA because of it.

(added: SnellKrell beat me to it!)

I seriously doubt anyone would leave cable or sat because ABC Family would then be available OTA. The carriage fee wouldn't change because for something like ABC Family and similar channels won't practically non-existent anyways.

Anyways it was just an idea.
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post #4871 of 7370 Old 09-13-2009, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbynum View Post

I don't know if 300 ohm twinlead is even still made, but a folded dipole as we used for FM would be inexpensive and offer moderate gain. Then a balun to 75 ohms ...

I made one cut for rf4. I can't get a lock at 28 miles. Still no CBS WHBF on the garage tv. I have no trouble receiving the UHF stations using my YouTube antenna.

Bob 61231
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post #4872 of 7370 Old 09-13-2009, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

Who cares how they would react. It's Disney's programing they can do what they want.

Every major cable company and both DirecTv and Dish carry HSN yet in many areas it's available over OTA. Where are the threats? Where is the outrage? for example in Nashville it's available on UHF 24. Yet Comcast still carries it.



I seriously doubt anyone would leave cable or sat because ABC Family would then be available OTA. The carriage fee wouldn't change because for something like ABC Family and similar channels won't practically non-existent anyways.

Anyways it was just an idea.

Just wondering, is your degree in Broadcast Business or
Broadcast Engineering?
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post #4873 of 7370 Old 09-13-2009, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

Every major cable company and both DirecTv and Dish carry HSN yet in many areas it's available over OTA. Where are the threats? Where is the outrage? for example in Nashville it's available on UHF 24. Yet Comcast still carries it.

HSN is a different animal. They make their money by people watching, calling in and buying their products directly from them. They're not really cannibalizing anything by having a free signal in some areas. Also, I'm not sure exactly what the arrangements are, but I think whomever carries these shopping channels gets some kind of compensation based on the calls they generate from their area.

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post #4874 of 7370 Old 09-13-2009, 05:06 PM
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According to the FCC's website, some Christian ministry now has an application for a 300 watt low power digital station on channel 2 here in Bakersfield. I wonder if I will be able to receive it. I hope they do build this station, as all this talk about digital on low VHF has me curious.

How can we say "the digital transition is complete" when thousands of low power stations are still broadcasting in analog?
LOW POWER ANALOG NEEDS TO DIE NOW!!!
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post #4875 of 7370 Old 09-13-2009, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Desert Hawk View Post

According to the FCC's website, some Christian ministry now has an application for a 300 watt low power digital station on channel 2 here in Bakersfield. I wonder if I will be able to receive it. I hope they do build this station, as all this talk about digital on low VHF has me curious.

Especially odd as Bakersfield has been an all-UHF market for a long time -- until recently (when KERO moved to 10 for DTV), I doubt many folks there even had VHF antennas, except maybe to pick up out-of-market stations, no?

What many predict will happen when the FCC starts accepting new full-power DTV applications is that some of the now-vacated lo-VHF channels in the bigger markets are going to be highly sought after, by applicants that care little about OTA and just want "must carry" status on cable.
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post #4876 of 7370 Old 09-13-2009, 09:04 PM
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Another station bails on VHF. WINK in Fort Myers wants to move from 9 to 50. 1000 kW ND.

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post #4877 of 7370 Old 09-13-2009, 09:28 PM
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The only interesting FCC filing this evening was a VHF Nightmare. WJHL in Johnson City wants an increase from 25.5 kW to 34.5 kW on channel 11.

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post #4878 of 7370 Old 09-14-2009, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Another station bails on VHF. WINK in Fort Myers wants to move from 9 to 50. 1000 kW ND.

Where'd you hear that, Trip? I don't see an FCC entry for this yet. Or is it just scuttlebutt and they haven't actually filed yet?
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post #4879 of 7370 Old 09-14-2009, 05:58 AM
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I post these things on my Channel Change page as soon as I know about them. But here's the link directly to the FCC PRM: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/r...ent=7020038318

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post #4880 of 7370 Old 09-14-2009, 07:46 AM
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Ironic, WINK was the last Fort Myers station to go on the air in digital because the FCC gave them UHF and the fought to get VHF9.
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post #4881 of 7370 Old 09-14-2009, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post

What many predict will happen when the FCC starts accepting new full-power DTV applications is that some of the now-vacated lo-VHF channels in the bigger markets are going to be highly sought after, by applicants that care little about OTA and just want "must carry" status on cable.

It sounds like the "must carry" concept needs to be re-thought if stations go to Low-VHF just for cable carriage. No/few actually OTA viewers probably doesn't much if a station can get carriage in markets like NYC, LA and Philly, etc., just because of this rule. Low operating costs and no expectation of a signal from the OTA viewers makes this even more attractive. They will be effectively "virtual" broadcasters. This is already happening in NYC and Philly, due to an old loophole.

This is one of the many reasons 2-6 should have been done away with.

Why some low power stations with no must carry status think they can be successful on 2-6 is beyond me.
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post #4882 of 7370 Old 09-14-2009, 09:26 AM
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WKYT's request for 36 has advanced to the next step:

AMENDMENT OF SECTION 73.622(I), POST-TRANSITION TABLE OF DTV ALLOTMENTS, TELEVISION BROADCAST STATIONS, LEXINGTON, KENTUCKY. Proposed channel substitution for stations WKYT-TV from channel 13 to 36. (Dkt No. RM-11562 09-163 ). Action by: Chief, Video Division, Media Bureau. Adopted: 09/10/2009 by NPRM. (DA No. 09-2041).
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post #4883 of 7370 Old 09-14-2009, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgpt6 View Post

Ironic, WINK was the last Fort Myers station to go on the air in digital because the FCC gave them UHF and the fought to get VHF9.

WINK's original digital assignment was on channel 53, which was deleted by the FCC as of June 12, 2009. They fought to get off of channel 53 so they would not have to build out a facility that would then have to be shut down and thrown away after the transition.

Channel 9 just happened to be an open channel in the area. I imagine they'd have fought to get another UHF if channel 9 had not been available.

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post #4884 of 7370 Old 09-14-2009, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

I post these things on my Channel Change page as soon as I know about them. But here's the link directly to the FCC PRM: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/r...ent=7020038318

Odd that it doesn't show up when I do a search on today's apps. Oh, well...
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post #4885 of 7370 Old 09-14-2009, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post

Odd that it doesn't show up when I do a search on today's apps. Oh, well...

I find terribly mixed results when I search for PRMs.

The FCC seems to categorize them in some weird way that confuses their search engine.

The same sort of search keywords that will yield success with one PRM, might not with another.
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post #4886 of 7370 Old 09-14-2009, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

WKYT's request for 36 has advanced to the next step:

AMENDMENT OF SECTION 73.622(I), POST-TRANSITION TABLE OF DTV ALLOTMENTS, TELEVISION BROADCAST STATIONS, LEXINGTON, KENTUCKY. Proposed channel substitution for stations WKYT-TV from channel 13 to 36. (Dkt No. RM-11562 09-163 ). Action by: Chief, Video Division, Media Bureau. Adopted: 09/10/2009 by NPRM. (DA No. 09-2041).

Interesting footnote to this NPRM:

"According to Gray [Television Inc., owner of WKYT], this channel substitution proposal is predicted to result in a loss of service to 36,342 persons located primarily in the mountainous regions of eastern Kentucky ... Gray asserts, however, that due to terrain blockage, the actual loss is reduced to 11,858 persons, and all but 941 of these persons would maintain CBS network service from other CBS network stations ... Gray also states that 'no person located in this loss area was within WKYT's analog Grade B contour,' and given the significant reception problems it has experienced on digital channel 13, it is 'unsure if anyone located in the loss area was ever able to receive WKYT's channel 13 digital signal.' "

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post #4887 of 7370 Old 09-14-2009, 11:41 AM
 
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hey Trip I noticed on the FCC daily digest today it says
DIGITAL TV APPLICATIONS FOR LICENSE TO COVER GRANTED



construction permit no: BMPEDT-20020426AAH,
callsign WLJT.
WEST TENNESSEE PUBLIC TV
COUNCIL, INC
WLJT-DT
71645
TN BLEDT-20080219BJY


construction permit no: BPCDT-20080226ABH,
callsign WBBJ-TV.
TENNESSEE BROADCASTING
PARTNERS
WBBJ-DT
65204
TN BLCDT-20080414ABS

So exactly what exactly did they get permission for and how is that different than what they had going on up until today.
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post #4888 of 7370 Old 09-14-2009, 01:41 PM
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The empowering answer is to look up the construction permits cited using the CDBS search utility at http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs...d/app_sear.htm
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post #4889 of 7370 Old 09-14-2009, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

It sounds like the "must carry" concept needs to be re-thought if stations go to Low-VHF just for cable carriage. No/few actually OTA viewers probably doesn't much if a station can get carriage in markets like NYC, LA and Philly, etc., just because of this rule. Low operating costs and no expectation of a signal from the OTA viewers makes this even more attractive. They will be effectively "virtual" broadcasters. This is already happening in NYC and Philly, due to an old loophole.

This is one of the many reasons 2-6 should have been done away with.

Why some low power stations with no must carry status think they can be successful on 2-6 is beyond me.

Amen!

The loophole has been found and used. "Marginal" stations have forced cable and satellite companies to provide them carriage when precious bandwidth is at a premium.

Additionally, here in the NY DMA, many of them try to place their facilities on the Empire State Building! Where they're getting the dollars for such a high rent district is beyond me.

The Commission should take notice and do something, fast!
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post #4890 of 7370 Old 09-14-2009, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanislav View Post

Odd that it doesn't show up when I do a search on today's apps. Oh, well...

Go to the ECFS and search for PRM09MB, in all caps, and it's the first result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

So exactly what exactly did they get permission for and how is that different than what they had going on up until today.

Nothing changed. They filed for final licenses way back in 2008 (!) and the FCC is just now getting around to issuing them.

The FCC is not known for its speediness.

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