AVS Forum banner

The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread

943K views 7K replies 233 participants last post by  SFischer1 
#1 ·
Everyone,


The three rounds of the DTV channel elections are over. After that happened, each station knew what channels they were going to be on after the June 12, 2009 analog broadcast shutdown. Except...


Late this fall and until February 26, 2007, the FCC granted an exception. Last-minute changes were allowed for three categories:


1) The digital station was on VHF-LO (channels 2 through 6)

2) The digital station couldn't maximize their power due to interference from other stations, and

3) International conflicts, due to interference or problems with mainly Canada or Mexico.


We now know the final power and channel changes. Thanks to Falcon77 for a complete list; check out the ZIP file in this post:

http://www.rabbitears.info/ss/


Trip in VA is also updating nicely here:

http://www.rabbitears.info/dtr.php


And the FCC has made coverage maps for all of them:

http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/


Now, let's discuss power changes and upgrades which can be requested soon, as well as progress reports, and anything else related to the transition. Final week...this is it!!!!
 
See less See more
#27 ·
I can' t speak for every station, but contrary from what many not in the business think, most stations just want this over and the sooner the better. It has cost them lots of money to build out second transmitter/antenna sites and it is costing money to operate two transmitters, one that is costing 3 to 5 times the operating cost of the other with hardly any return for the capital investment or operating costs.


No one in the industry is talking about a delay in the transition, only certain people in DC who are worried about re-election have even broached that subject and the response has been either to ignore them or respond negatively. Stations are pretty much ready. The big unknown is can the FCC finish their part in time.


Remember, some stations have asked for early sign offs only to be denied by the FCC. And others have been granted. Most thik the FCC doesn't want stations to sign off analog until they feel the market place is ready for them to and they feel that 2009 is the realistic time frame. But the truth is, as long as the majority of viewers are analog, and the FCC allows analog to stay on the air, most stations will run both transmitters because it is to their long term survival to do so.


Will you have stragglers try something on Feb 17, 2009? Sure. Inevitable. But it will be too late for those few. For the majority, we are tired of expending time, energy and money to this issue. Just keep the playing field level and we would sign analog off today.
 
#28 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng /forum/post/0


The one thing that is true from that article is that post transition, there will be no need for transmitters in the US market and you will be seeing many of the transmitter manufactures either go out of business or have to sell overseas harder to stay in business for the next 5 to 10 years when the first generation DTV transmitters from the late 90's come up for replacement.

And you already have seen how many people Harris has laid off already.
 
#30 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng /forum/post/0


.. It has cost them lots of money to build out second transmitter/antenna sites and it is costing money to operate two transmitters, one that is costing 3 to 5 times the operating cost of the other with hardly any return for the capital investment or operating costs. ..


The percentage of cable and satellite viewers is believed to be about 85%. I would suspect almost all of these also subscribe to locals.


So how many of the remaining 15% over the air viewers are actually viewing the digital channels? Everyone I know is still watching NTSC.


--- CHAS
 
#31 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by HIPAR /forum/post/0


So how many of the remaining 15% over the air viewers are actually viewing the digital channels? Everyone I know is still watching NTSC.

While we're certainly not representative of "average" viewers (for that matter, neither is "everyone [you] know"), it is worth noting from comments made in this forum that a significant number of AVS Forum members (myself included) watch OTA digital channels.
 
#32 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Desmond /forum/post/0


While we're certainly not representative of "average" viewers (for that matter, neither is "everyone [you] know"), it is worth noting from comments made in this forum that a significant number of AVS Forum members (myself included) watch OTA digital channels.

As well as non AVS people as well. I hear from them on a daily basis.
 
#34 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBauer2635 /forum/post/0


Well, coming to the fact that many stations may change their station dials, do you think that the station will change it's station Moniker such as KCBS 43 or something similar to that?

FCC rules require if a digital station identifies itself with a channel number, it must be it's analog channel number, even after analog shut down and a station no longer transmits on that channel digitally and even if another station begins to transmit digital on the old channel number. If the new station was never on an analog channel, then it has to pick a channel that is unused in the area. No two stations in the same market can use the same channel number post transition.
 
#35 ·
I don't see that anyone has commented on this and this may be somewhat off-topic for this thread, but if I read the notice posted at the FCC DTV page ( http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/ ) on April 25 correctly, 32 stations have been granted approval to do a digital flash cut conversion whenever they want to. One of the stations is an ABC affiliate in Elmira, NY, WENY. So it appears that we will see more stations shutting down their analog signal well before the Feb. 17, 2009 shutdown day.
 
#36 ·
Remember, stations that were not licensed in 1997 when the second channels were issued were only issued one channel, analog or digital (99% went with analog) and knew they would have to file for a digital channel someday to make the transition but could continue to operate analog until the shutdown date. That is what is happening now, the stations are having to ask for the digital channel, be it a second (some have found a second) while others are asking for the flash cut.


This is all paperwork at this point.
 
#37 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by afiggatt /forum/post/0


...the notice posted at the FCC DTV page ( http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/ ) on April 25 (indicartes that) 32 stations have been granted approval to do a digital flash cut conversion whenever they want to... So it appears that we will see more stations shutting down their analog signal well before the Feb. 17, 2009 shutdown day.

I couldn' t locate the, "the stations listed in the attached Appendix" referred to in the first paragraph of that document. Can anyone find it?
 
#39 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by afiggatt /forum/post/0


if I read the notice posted at the FCC DTV page ( http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/ ) on April 25 correctly, 32 stations have been granted approval to do a digital flash cut conversion whenever they want to. One of the stations is an ABC affiliate in Elmira, NY, WENY. So it appears that we will see more stations shutting down their analog signal well before the Feb. 17, 2009 shutdown day.

My take on the notice is that those 32 stations will continue to broadcast analog-only until Feb 17, 2009, and will flash cut to digital at that point, as opposed to switching early.


Any of the industry experts here able to confirm which interpretation is correct?
 
#40 ·
See post 36.
 
#41 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng /forum/post/0


FCC rules require if a digital station identifies itself with a channel number, it must be it's analog channel number, even after analog shut down and a station no longer transmits on that channel digitally and even if another station begins to transmit digital on the old channel number. If the new station was never on an analog channel, then it has to pick a channel that is unused in the area. No two stations in the same market can use the same channel number post transition.

In my opinion, this is the most stupid rule I've ever heard of. Here in the San Francisco Bay Area we have several stations that will be operating their digital transmitters on channels presently used by analog stations: KVIE on 9 - now KQED, KTNC on 14 now KDTV, KTFK on 26 now KTSF, KFTY on 32 now KMTP, KRON on 38 now KCNS, and KTVU on 44 now KBCW.


I think it's going to be really confusing for KTVU, for example, to continue to call themselves FOX2 and KBCW referring to themselves as the Bay Area's CW 44 when they aren't on those channels and some other station is.


What's wrong with FOX 44 and CW 45... where they'll actually be transmitting? Somebody's got spider webs between their ears.


Larry

SF
 
#42 ·
The purpose of keeping the analog channel branding is to keep the public's confusion factor down. As you pointed out in your post, in areas like SF, many stations will be swapping channels with each other. The FCC feels the public will be too confused and since any OTA tuner will be remapped to the old analog channel, once a tuner has been scanned, it really doesn't matter since the old analog channel numbers will still be displayed.
 
#43 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng /forum/post/0


The purpose of keeping the analog channel branding is to keep the public's confusion factor down. As you pointed out in your post, in areas like SF, many stations will be swapping channels with each other. The FCC feels the public will be too confused and since any OTA tuner will be remapped to the old analog channel, once a tuner has been scanned, it really doesn't matter since the old analog channel numbers will still be displayed.

This may change for some stations after analog cutoff. Smaller, less successful stations in smaller markets are the most likely to do this. I would imagine as stations change ownership, they may well "re-brand" to the new RF channel. As an example, KSPR-33 (ABC) in Springfield MO has long suffered from a poor reputation. The DTV allocation for KSPR is RF 19. It was recently sold to Schurz, who own the dominant station in the market, KYTV-3/44. Schurz may re-brand KSPR to "ABC 19", to re-image the station. Lower numbers are easier to remember. KY-3 is quite unlikely to re-brand, even though it's DTV allocation is CH 44, and will remain so.


Only DTV fanatics, like us, are likely to care about this very much.
 
#44 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by PinkSplice /forum/post/0


This may change for some stations after analog cutoff. Smaller, less successful stations in smaller markets are the most likely to do this.

Stations do not have a choice in this. It is the law. Stations will brand with their analog channel numbers from now on, no matter what channel they actually transmit on.
 
#45 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxeng /forum/post/0


Stations do not have a choice in this. It is the law. Stations will brand with their analog channel numbers from now on, no matter what channel they actually transmit on.

Very true, as is everything else you've said about this ... However .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng /forum/post/0


The purpose of keeping the analog channel branding is to keep the public's confusion factor down.

And, IMO, the way I read the section of 2nd DTV review R&O as well as comments submitted by interested parties on this issue, I think it was also done to allow stations to keep their existing analog channel branding.

Quote:
since any OTA tuner will be remapped to the old analog channel

Actually, RCA DTC-100 is one tuner that allows the user to turn off PSIP channel mapping and use/display to the user the actual RF channel number instead. MPEG program stream #'s are used instead of minor Channel #'s.

Quote:
once a tuner has been scanned, it really doesn't matter since the old analog channel numbers will still be displayed.

#1).Tuners don't allways find all receivable channels via a "scan", sometimes different antenna adjustment is necessary to receive different stations.


This is a little easier to accomplish with a receiver that allows you to rescan/add channels with antenna in different direction if you have a outdoor, directional antenna which can generally be "aimed" in the right direction for any given station, but probably not as easy if there are receivers that don't allow manual tuning or "scanning in"/adding a single channel/station by RF channel if you're futzing around with posistioning of indoor antennas .....


#2). The PSIP VCT info sent by each station containing the remapped channel info for that station(the major channel # which corresponds to the "old" analog channel #) can't be decoded until signal near threshold for reception(i.e. decoding of audio video streams) is acheived.


However, most DTV receivers I've used can and do show some sort of an indication of signal when DTV signal is as much as about 10db below threshold required for reception, and probably about 8db below what is required to decode the PSIP info. On one receiver, careful examination of its "AGC" readings is one way this can be accomplished --- including regardless of the multipath conditions which in some cases can result in a "signal strength"(yeah right, but that's what it says it is) reading of "ZERO", even in some cases when the signal is actually quite strong ...on another receiver here, its so called "DTV signal meter" is generally sufficient in this regard, and again, will indicate a DTV signal on a RF channel well below what is required to decode the PSIP channel remapping info ....


In other words, in some cases, OTA viewers will need to know the actual RF channel # used, and the receiver will need to provide a non-confusing and intuitive way for them to individually manually "tune in", or "scan in" a single RF channel and allow the user to utilize signal meter(s) while adjusting antenna for best results to even be able to achieve a condition where the channel remapping info can be received+from then on be used by the receiver so the station "shows up" as it's "old analog channel #" via the channel remapping .....


All DTV receivers (I've owned 4 of them, different models, 5 if you count my newest DTV tuner in a PC) I've owned have some sort of way to do this to some extent, although I find this process is more cumbersome+less "intuitive" with some receivers vs. others.


Other than the DTC-100-* which I no longer own, and software such as Tsreader with which you use the RF channel to "tune with" --- the best receiver (IMO) I've used in this regard, in addition to a "auto channel scan" feature, has a "channel edit" list with all RF channel numbers 2-69 shown, and the user simply selects(or deselects - the autochannel scan automatically selects any RF channel in the list it achieves a lock on a signal on) the RF channel numbers for the stations in their area ... then, When/if the receiver achieves a lock on a signal from any of those "channels" you've selected as "active" in the list, the VCT info is stored+used by the receiver, and from then on the station can be "tuned to", or channel up/down "surfed to" by the VCT Major Channel # (or major+minor). The VCT major/Minor Channel #'s are the ones displayed as well, unless a signal lock isn't achieved, in which case it's the RF channel Number. Also, *every* time you tune to a "in use" major channel number, it automatically updates whatever info from the PSIP it's storing to whatever the broadcaster is currently sending, so when changes are made to MPEG info (PAT/PMT/PID's/etc) or PSIP tables or fields at the station which sometimes "upset" other receiver's which need a rescan, this receiver gets it automatically+doesn't need a new "rescan" ...


Also, with that receiver, it's possible at any time to "manually" tune directly to a RF channel #, any RF channel, including ones you haven't "selected" in the list or that haven't been found by autoscan - The only exception being a RF Channel # that corresponds to a VCT major channel number for a station which is added (by it's RF channel #) in the "channel edit number list"), and of course whose PSIP info had previously been decoded. Fortunetly, all one has to do is "deselect" that channel from the channel edit list if one wants to tune to that RF channel involved.


Another receiver model I have allows you to "scan in" a single RF channel while looking at a signal meter, that works as well.


* - other than the DTC-100 with the channel mapping turned off, which was the least confusing and "best" option for me+family when stations weren't required to do the channel remapping and some were doing it and some weren't ..


Although TSID should(and does from what I've seen) solve any problems that might arise when a "channel scan" occurs - such as if say in some cases via "dx" if multiple stations with identical major/channel #'s are received --- and it shouldn't be a problem currently in almost all cases as the analog station is transmitting there, currently, however :


I suspect the issue on some receivers of not being able to "scan in" a single RF channel, or to manually "tune" to a RF channel # that corresponds to a VCT Major channel # already in memory(at least without rescanning with antenna disconnected to clear all that info out) might become an issue in the future for some folks when those RF channels currently in use by analogs, in some cases will be used by other DTV stations.


I've heard rumors this might be the case with some receiver models(although I haven't seen any of these personally) --- Any Receiver which would only allow a full scan and a "scan in additional channels/add digital channels with antenna aimed a differet way without disrupting the channels found via full scan" options via autoscan features ONLY are probably the worst sort of thing to have in this regard IMO, as, in that case, you can only "guess" at where to posistion the antenna for any given station you want to add without the help of any "signal meter"+ in some cases some users will have to be doing a lot of "scanning" around ....


-----------------


I guess what I'm saying is, I wish they would come up with one, good "standardized" way to implement these necessary "scan in or manually tune a single channel" functions on *all* future receivers so it allways works the same for everyone, *and* would work for everyone and anyone no matter what might occur for cases when it is necesssary allows option of manual tuning(or scanning in a single indivdual RF channel) to *any* RF channel(2-51 post analog shut off) along with the use of some sort of "signal diagnostics" tools (AGC readings, Signal quality readings, SNR readings/etc) on an individual basis, by RF channel # ...


The FCC's posistion on this causing "less confusion" for the public, as it pertains to OTA viewers along with how some of the "channel tuning" features are implemented on some receivers, really seems only 100% applicable to me as it pertains to OTA viewers(those who are not getting guide info from the DBS companies/etc which If I understand correctly in some cases can also help with this sort of thing) who are lucky enough to do a autoscan and receive all their local stations they want, or can potentially receive via the "scan" ...


Hopefully that's the case for many folks, but I know it's not the case for some, and I expect, even now many folks have never seen many stations in their area they can actually recieve because their antenna wasn't orientated the "right way" when they did an "autoscan" ..... while that's true for analog as well with most modern analog TV's, it's very straightfoward to "tune" to the RF channel of an analog signal (and the actual RF analog channel #'s that correspond to what the tuners "say" they are are certianly well known+publicized) and get the picture and sound on the channel in a way that makes perfect sense and allows for easy+intutive adjustment of antenna for best reception results on screen .... That's not the case if you have a digital channel not found by "autoscan", where you need to be able to tune to RF channel look at some sort of meter to adjust signal so that you can get the channel remapping info ....


Also, there's the potential issue of the virtual channel #'s regarding the potential of some folks becoming confused about whether they need a UHF+VHF or just a UHF antenna, based on the virtual channels vs the actual frequency of transmission(which the "RF" channel number does correspond to via a well known "channel table" in use for many decades ...) ...


It's nice they're interested in making things less "confusing" and "easier", but sometimes, even with all good intentions of making things "easier" for many or most can also make things more complicated for others if some necessary more "manual" functions aren't available on the receivers as well ....
 
#46 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng /forum/post/0


Stations do not have a choice in this. It is the law. Stations will brand with their analog channel numbers from now on, no matter what channel they actually transmit on.

Actually it is merely an FCC rule that only came into effect in October 2004. Prior to that many stations were using the actual RF channel as their major channel number for their digital streams. As such, it can be changed by the FCC at any time.


Once the analogue transmitters are shut down, it is quite possible that the FCC will simply abolish the rule and let the individual stations decide. However, in some markets such a change could lead to disputes. For example, in Burlington Vermont which station would call itself channel 22? WVNY whch has used 22 since the 1960's but will be broadcasting on RF channel 13? Or WCAX that has been known as Channel 3 since 1954 but will be broadcasting on 22 starting in 2009?
 
#47 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_O /forum/post/0


Actually it is merely an FCC rule that only came into effect in October 2004.

Last time I looked, a FCC rule was law.

Quote:
Once the analogue transmitters are shut down, it is quite possible that the FCC will simply abolish the rule and let the individual stations decide.

Very unlikely according to the FCC themselves.
 
#50 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by PinkSplice /forum/post/0


OW! OW! Enough with the tire iron! I'm *not* Bob Miller....

No tire iron. You seem to think the FCC with change their mind on this. They have said it is done. They will not reconsider it. As far as they are concerned, it is a closed subject. Why do you have such a hard time understanding that? That is all.
 
#51 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_O /forum/post/0


Prior to that many stations were using the actual RF channel as their major channel number for their digital streams.

At that time, some stations were doing that, and some stations were using analog channel # for PSIP VCT Major channel number as was "recommended" ....


That situation was the worst possible combination, IMO. Either everyone using the RF channel #, or as it is required currently is much better situation, IMO ..


Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng /forum/post/0


You seem to think the FCC with change their mind on this. They have said it is done. They will not reconsider it. .

Yep ... Also something to keep in mind here is that the way it's being done is something that ATSC and groups such as MSTV "approve", and, I think it's really "part" of ATSC A 65/B PSIP standard, which was adopted/mandated pretty much in its entirety by FCC duing 2nd DTV review ....
 
#52 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng /forum/post/0


Last time I looked, a FCC rule was law.


.

Not quite. While an FCC rule has the same force as a law, it is not a law. An FCC rule can be changed by the FCC, while a law can only be changed by Congress with both Houses acting in unison. That's a big difference.


For example, the analogue cutoff date of February 17, 2009 and the channels that can be used by TV broadcasters after the analogue cutoff (2-36 and 38-51) were both laws set by Congress and cannot be changed by the FCC since there was no language in the 2005 Bill (finally passed in Feb 2006) which would allow them to do so. On the other hand, in the legal sense, the regulation under which broadcasters must use their analogue channel number as their digital major channel number is nothing more than an administrative rule set by the FCC. As such it can be abolished by the FCC, if and when they see fit to do so.


One of the FCC's main justifications for setting the rule in October 2004 (many years into the transition) disappears when the analogue transmitters are shut down and there are many stations that would like to use the physical channel as their "identity". While using two different channel numbers for the same station is confusing to viewers, calling oneself channel 3 while broadcasting on channel 22, for example, is even more confusing: different channel number, different antenna type required. There will be pressure from many stations themselves to dump the rule and the FCC will listen. Whether or not they act remains to be seen.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top