The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread - Page 21 - AVS Forum
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post #601 of 7371 Old 02-16-2008, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

Looks like poor wording in their filing. It is the analog signal that is at STA power. The plan is to be ready to fire up a DT 43 channel by end of October, 2008, but analog stays on the air until the bitter end.

I decided that KLCW was using the "DT" tag in the general sense as KLCW-DT the station. Yes, it is poorly worded, but they aren't the only ones with this problem. Some of these forms were probably done in 5 minutes, w/o an internal review. 2009, 2008? What's the difference?

I have updated my spreadsheet to reflect the latest updates from this week. I have also separated the Analog and Digital columns and added a 3rd column which has links to additional info on some of the trickier cases.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post12890633

Next week is going to be fun.


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post #602 of 7371 Old 02-16-2008, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

4.5 kW sounds reasonable for their full-powered transmitter.

Realize that ERP does not equal transmitter power output. For instance, a transmitter puts no power straight up; nobody to receive it.

Ok, I hadn't thought of that.

If it is input power, their use of it in this context does not seem appropriate as most filings are using ERP when specifying transmitter power. But then, KSCI doesn't seem to have put a lot of thought into their 387.

For my info, what are the typical VHF gains (Low and High) on the transmitters vs. UHF gains? I have heard that UHF requires more power, but know it is not as simple as comparing ERP's to know how much higher the respective electric bills are.


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post #603 of 7371 Old 02-16-2008, 08:36 PM
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I just did a quick check, I found channels 7-13 with multipliers between 6 and 13. (WSET, WSLS, WSET)

I didn't see anything above a multiplier of 5 in my 5-minute check for channels 2-6. (WTVR, KCBS, KNBC, KMOH)

EDIT: WSKY is one of the newest low-VHFs having come on the air since 1997, and it's got a 20 kW transmitter making 100 kW ERP.

- Trip

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post #604 of 7371 Old 02-17-2008, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

I decided that KLCW was using the "DT" tag in the general sense as KLCW-DT the station. Yes, it is poorly worded, but they aren't the only ones with this problem. Some of these forms were probably done in 5 minutes, w/o an internal review. 2009, 2008? What's the difference?

I have updated my spreadsheet to reflect the latest updates from this week. I have also separated the Analog and Digital columns and added a 3rd column which has links to additional info on some of the trickier cases.

Yes, I'm surprised at how many stations left some boxes or section unchecked on the form or have text statements with typos and/or are poorly written in their filing. If it were me, for a important filing to the FCC, I would double and triple check it and have someone else proof read it before submitting it. 8 stations have already filed an amendment saying oops, we made an error.

Good job on the spreadsheet! Lot of work to summarize the 522 stations who submitted a 387 so far. Will be interesting to see how many stations filed on Friday at the end of week and because Monday is a holiday. If the Friday filings are posted tonight, anyone want to guess how many were posted on Friday? 500? more? Or are they all going to wait until the last minute.
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post #605 of 7371 Old 02-17-2008, 11:41 AM
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I found this article for the proposed DTV Border Fix Act of 2007:

http://broadcastengineering.com/news...n_border_0215/

The proposed wording is here:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.2507:

In summary, it would "entitle" stations within 50 miles of the Mexican border to continue analog broadcasts for another 5 years, but only within the 2-51 range. This would include areas such as San Diego, CA, Yuma, AZ, El Paso, Laredo, Harlingen and Brownsville, TX.

If passed, it remains to be seen how many would opt to do this.


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post #606 of 7371 Old 02-17-2008, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

I found this article for the proposed DTV Border Fix Act of 2007:

http://broadcastengineering.com/news...n_border_0215/

The proposed wording is here:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.2507:

In summary, it would "entitle" stations within 50 miles of the Mexican border to continue analog broadcasts for another 5 years, but only within the 2-51 range. This would include areas such as San Diego, CA, Yuma, AZ, El Paso, Laredo, Harlingen and Brownsville, TX.

If passed, it remains to be seen how many would opt to do this.

No one I know of thinks this will pass. This is Congress playing politics.

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post #607 of 7371 Old 02-17-2008, 05:03 PM
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What a can of worms. First of all 50 miles from the border is too far, 35 miles should be plenty. Since these stations would still be required to broadcast their digital stations would any of them really want to take on the extra expense. If we're going to entitle stations along the Mexican border for five years shouldn't we also entitle those along the Canadian border for at least a couple of years?
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post #608 of 7371 Old 02-18-2008, 12:41 AM
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The one year count down begins! One year from now, all full powered analog stations will be history.

Trip... you're doing a great job on your web page transferring all of the Form 387 info into an easy to read format. Thanks for all your work. Don't let the megaload of forms in the next couple days get to you. Post them as you find time. Classes and sleep come first.

I've seen stories about the transition on three of our local stations in the past week.
-- One was about how consumers are being ripped off by merchants selling them expensive HDTV sets when all they wanted was a digital to analog converter, telling them that their old TV sets won't be any good after next year. Buyer beware.
-- Another was about all the TVs that will become electronic junk during the next year as people buy digital TVs and get rid of their old analog sets. They gave tips on recycling them.
-- A third was all about the transistion a year from now, how stations will be turning off their analog transmitters and going all digital. They did a nice job of explaining how cable and satellite viewers will continue to receive local stations if they get them now, and how you can receive digital TV using an antenna with a digital TV or with a converter box. They also told about the government rebate for the digital to analog converter and how to apply for coupons for them.

The PSAs about the end of analog broadcasting are seen very frequently, too, often in the commercial breaks of the newscasts, and many of the local stations have produced their own versions in place of the generic one they started out airing a while back. I don't see how anyone's not going to know about the transition around here if they watch local TV much at all.

Are news stories and PSAs happening in other markets, too?

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post #609 of 7371 Old 02-18-2008, 06:00 AM
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Story in the news, PSAs have been going for a couple weeks already. Must be working - when I downloaded the Zip3 spreadsheet, my area (275) was in the top 20 with over 25,000 requests / coupons . Then again - My DMA has WRAL - probably the leading HDTV station in the nation.

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post #610 of 7371 Old 02-18-2008, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Scooper View Post

Story in the news, PSAs have been going for a couple weeks already. Must be working - when I downloaded the Zip3 spreadsheet, my area (275) was in the top 20 with over 25,000 requests / coupons . Then again - My DMA has WRAL - probably the leading HDTV station in the nation.

Where can this spreadsheet be found? I am curious to see the results for my area as I have not seen anything other than a 6am PSA about 4 months ago, but I spend more time watching SNR numbers than TV.

There was a news spot about Best Buy pulling analog TV's at around the same time and the reporter admitted over the air that he had no idea what it meant, though that was in the Palm Springs area. He kindly replied to my e-mail about it, however.


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post #611 of 7371 Old 02-18-2008, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

Are news stories and PSAs happening in other markets, too?

My station has been running the action PSAs since September and about once a month has a news story on the transition. The weekend of the Super Bowl I was in one where I was showing how people with rabbit ears (it killed me to do it since I DON'T recommend rabbit ears but that was the heart of the story!) could pick up the digital stations. We had a Sanyo 19 in LCD that had a built in tuner and with a VHF only diplole made it pick up our analog VHF signal (very noisy in the building) and then our digital UHF signal for a one to one comparision. It was very effective. I also write a blog on our station website about the transition.

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post #612 of 7371 Old 02-18-2008, 01:12 PM
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There is a long article in Broadcasting & Cable that was published today on the DTV transition with a lot of focus on the issues for low power stations. It was posted in the HOTP thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post13145430.

My short comment on this, they are just getting around to thinking about hey what about the 2,794 low-power stations and 4,418 translators NOW? The February 17, 2009 date for full power stations has been set since, what December 2005? It should not have taken much foresight for a LP station owner to realize that once digital tuners are widespread that people might not bother checking to see what is on the analog stations very often. Or get confused about how to get the analog signals. Now someone thinks the converter boxes should have had analog tuners built-in?? A tad late for that proposal (which I think is silly because all TVs have a NTSC tuner). Surely a requirement for RF passthrough must have come up for discussion when the converter requirement were being defined.

And what the Chairman of the FCC is proposing is not very friendly to cable or satellite systems and their limited bandwidth by wanting to fast track 600 LPs to full power status and the must carry that comes with it. Sausage making at it's finest.
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post #613 of 7371 Old 02-18-2008, 04:35 PM
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From what I heard about 2000 of the over 7000 CA, LP, and TX stations already do have plans for the transition so there really isn't any surprise here.
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post #614 of 7371 Old 02-18-2008, 04:57 PM
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Alright, seeing as how there's a good chance I'm going to have 1000+ apps dumped on me this evening, I've developed a game plan for what to do with it.

Instead of posting the call letters of every station that gets a filing here, I'm only going to post "surprises" or stations that have interesting things here.

Further, I'm planning to go state-by-state so I don't miss any stations, and thus will post which states are done and available on my site. This'll make it very clear what's done and what isn't. Since Virginia is my home state and interests me the most, it will be done first. It will be followed closely by DC and NC, likely moving north from there to get New England; there should be some interesting filings up that way.

All that said, tomorrow I have an exam and Wednesday I have two, so don't expect me to update quite as rapidly as I did last week; at least not until all that nonsense is over. Until it's all over with on Wednesday evening, I'm focusing on my school stuff first, and this second to break up the boredom and monotony (ironic, isn't it?).

Anyway, start a countdown; a hair over four hours til it starts flooding in!

- Trip

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post #615 of 7371 Old 02-18-2008, 09:16 PM
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Is anyone else seeing just 300? That number seems very, very small.

EDIT: Or is there another day? Were those only the filings from Friday, and not the whole weekend?

- Trip

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post #616 of 7371 Old 02-18-2008, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Is anyone else seeing just 300? That number seems very, very small.

EDIT: Or is there another day? Were those only the filings from Friday, and not the whole weekend?

I see 297 new filings. I think these are the filings that would have posted last night from Friday if Monday had not been a holiday. A random check of the 387 forms show some of them dated 2/15/08. Will be interesting to see how many stations have not submitted a 387 as of Tuesday night's dump.

Quickie look:
KBGH in Idaho - has decided not to build a DTV facility and will go dark on 02/17/09.
WUSA 9 in DC - flash cut to VHF 9 on 02/17/09. However has petitioned for a change to it's post-transition service area and antenna pattern. Hmm, anyone know how to locate that petition?
WMDT in Salisbury, MD - reduced analog coverage in Oct, 08; planning to shut down analog around Dec. 15, 2008.
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post #617 of 7371 Old 02-18-2008, 10:07 PM
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I see 300 as well. I'm going through them, but noticed that WSWG has filed to keep full analog service until the transition. However, my notes say that WSWG analog 44 went dark last year and that the cost to repair it was impractical. I wonder what is going on here?

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=28155


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post #618 of 7371 Old 02-19-2008, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

The weekend of the Super Bowl I was in one where I was showing how people with rabbit ears (it killed me to do it since I DON'T recommend rabbit ears but that was the heart of the story!) could pick up the digital stations. We had a Sanyo 19 in LCD that had a built in tuner and with a VHF only diplole made it pick up our analog VHF signal (very noisy in the building) and then our digital UHF signal for a one to one comparision. It was very effective. I also write a blog on our station website about the transition.

Neat deal on the demo!

If you wouldn't mind identifying your station, I'd love to read your blog.

Larry
SF

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post #619 of 7371 Old 02-19-2008, 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

Neat deal on the demo!

If you wouldn't mind identifying your station, I'd love to read your blog.

Larry
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post #620 of 7371 Old 02-19-2008, 08:29 AM
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In case anyone still needs the link to my page:

http://www.rabbitears.info/dtr.php?

I've gone ahead and filled in my list for NC, VA, DC, MD, DE, PA, NJ, NY, and all of New England. More to come.

Anyway, there are some interesting filings. I'm going to go in order of markets:

WCBS: WCBS is planning to install a new omni-directional antenna to share with WNBC-28 and WWOR-38 along with a directional antenna on the other side of the building to prevent shadowing. Eventually, it plans to move to the Freedom Tower when that's completed (the filing estimates 2012).

WCAU: WCAU will be sharing WYBE's side-mounted antenna post-transition, but will file to put a new omni-directional antenna on top of its current tower after the transition. It's not specific about whether or not WYBE will be moving with it.

WHDH: WHDH... I can't tell what they want to do. The filing says that they want to flash-cut to STA facilities I think, but I'm unclear as to why.

WWDP: WWDP wants to silence DT-52 on 11/19/08 and then flash-cut TV-46 to DT-10 on 02/17/09.

WQED/WQEX: Plan to operate current facilities under STA until TV-13 equipment can be replaced with DT-13 equipment.

WRAL: Will operate low-power as changes are made to the tower.

WNEP: Claims it will operate at "full analog power" despite the fact they're presently operating TV-16 at low-power due to tower collapse.

WMHT: Analog operating at half-power. Filing on FCC site says they've received permission to terminate analog early, but I think that's a mistake as Exhibit 3 says nothing about it.

WPME: Plans to flash-cut in early December 2008.

WPSU: Apparently involved in an FCC-caused Canadian coordination mess.

WMDT: Plans to flash-cut 12/15/08.

WDPB: Operating analog at low power.

WLBZ: Will operate DT-25 under STA. I wonder if WLBZ might be planning to operate DT-25 under STA in order to file for a new channel (12?) after the filing freeze ends in August 2008, and this is a stalling tactic. The filing says that they don't have a transmitter that can handle DT-02 and will be apparently buying a used one or something (maybe importing WMAZ-DT's channel 4 transmitter?). I seriously doubt that they'd keep channel 2 for any length of time regardless.

I'll be back with more updates as I get through things.

- Trip

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post #621 of 7371 Old 02-19-2008, 11:39 AM
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Under Chicago, WLS- ABC 07 53 07 should read 07 52 07. 53 is WGBO which is correct in the listing.

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post #622 of 7371 Old 02-19-2008, 12:27 PM
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While their form 387 isn't up yet, the transition plan for KFMB in San Diego is going to be interesting:

http://www.sbe36.org/index.php?optio...d=211&Itemid=1

They will be moving to channel 7 for DTV starting next month, to clear 55 for MediaFLO in Qualcomm's home territory.

However, the experimental channel 7 ERP's presented (47kW and 140kW) greatly exceed their final allotment of 14.9kW (on 8). There is supposed to be a deep null towards the LA area to avoid interference with analog KABC. I will look forward to their 387 filing for more info.

Once done, I will be conducting tests in downtown San Diego to see how this changes reception from 55.


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post #623 of 7371 Old 02-19-2008, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

In case anyone still needs the link to my page:

http://www.rabbitears.info/dtr.php?

I've gone ahead and filled in my list for NC, VA, DC, MD, DE, PA, NJ, NY, and all of New England. More to come.

Anyway, there are some interesting filings. I'm going to go in order of markets:

WCBS: WCBS is planning to install a new omni-directional antenna to share with WNBC-28 and WWOR-38 along with a directional antenna on the other side of the building to prevent shadowing. Eventually, it plans to move to the Freedom Tower when that's completed (the filing estimates 2012).

WCAU: WCAU will be sharing WYBE's side-mounted antenna post-transition, but will file to put a new omni-directional antenna on top of its current tower after the transition. It's not specific about whether or not WYBE will be moving with it.

WHDH: WHDH... I can't tell what they want to do. The filing says that they want to flash-cut to STA facilities I think, but I'm unclear as to why.

WWDP: WWDP wants to silence DT-52 on 11/19/08 and then flash-cut TV-46 to DT-10 on 02/17/09.

WQED/WQEX: Plan to operate current facilities under STA until TV-13 equipment can be replaced with DT-13 equipment.

WRAL: Will operate low-power as changes are made to the tower.

WNEP: Claims it will operate at "full analog power" despite the fact they're presently operating TV-16 at low-power due to tower collapse.

WMHT: Analog operating at half-power. Filing on FCC site says they've received permission to terminate analog early, but I think that's a mistake as Exhibit 3 says nothing about it.

WPME: Plans to flash-cut in early December 2008.

WPSU: Apparently involved in an FCC-caused Canadian coordination mess.

WMDT: Plans to flash-cut 12/15/08.

WDPB: Operating analog at low power.

WLBZ: Will operate DT-25 under STA. I wonder if WLBZ might be planning to operate DT-25 under STA in order to file for a new channel (12?) after the filing freeze ends in August 2008, and this is a stalling tactic. The filing says that they don't have a transmitter that can handle DT-02 and will be apparently buying a used one or something (maybe importing WMAZ-DT's channel 4 transmitter?). I seriously doubt that they'd keep channel 2 for any length of time regardless.

I'll be back with more updates as I get through things.

- Trip

I must say, for somebody who's analyzing these 387s as a "break" from school work, you're finding some mighty detailed information! Here in western PA we seem to have more than our share of FCC-caused issues (WPSU, WPCW, to name two.) I think 2/18/09 is going to be a very interesting TV viewing day.

ÂOne of the few good things about modern times: If you die horribly on television, you will not have died in vain. You will have entertained us.Â
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post #624 of 7371 Old 02-19-2008, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greywolf View Post

Under Chicago, WLS- ABC 07 53 07 should read 07 52 07. 53 is WGBO which is correct in the listing.

Nice catch, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

While their form 387 isn't up yet, the transition plan for KFMB in San Diego is going to be interesting:

http://www.sbe36.org/index.php?optio...d=211&Itemid=1

They will be moving to channel 7 for DTV starting next month, to clear 55 for MediaFLO in Qualcomm's home territory.

However, the experimental channel 7 ERP's presented (47kW and 140kW) greatly exceed their final allotment of 14.9kW (on 8). There is supposed to be a deep null towards the LA area to avoid interference with analog KABC. I will look forward to their 387 filing for more info.

Once done, I will be conducting tests in downtown San Diego to see how this changes reception from 55.

Thanks for this. That's an amusing one, though I guess it's the best they could do under the circumstances. No point in building out a new UHF.

I, too, am curious about the high power. 140 kW on channel 7 and then falling to 14.9 kW on channel 8? Something doesn't seem right about that, though it may be that the FCC won't let them boost the final power that high. There's a freeze on power increases through August. Maybe we'll see a power adjustment upwards after that time.

I've done everything east of the Mississippi River, excepting Minnesota and Louisiana. I'll continue moving west this evening, should I get time.

I think now would be a good time to prep for my Economics exam, which starts at 5:30.

- Trip

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post #625 of 7371 Old 02-19-2008, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

WHDH: WHDH... I can't tell what they want to do. The filing says that they want to flash-cut to STA facilities I think, but I'm unclear as to why.

WHDH NBC 7 (pre DT=42, post DT=7): Complicated plan, but not that unclear. See http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/f...ibit_id=618119. WHDH current ch 7 antenna is unsuitable for long term use for digital broadcast. Their plan is clearly driven by the desire to keep analog at full power until the bitter end as they are willing to live with degraded digital coverage after 2/17/09 for some months. They plan to file an STA to use the current analog 7 antenna for digital use after Feb 17; DT 42 goes dark on 02/17/09. Once better weather arrives in the spring, in a 2-3 week period from April to July 2009, switch the digital broadcast to an auxiliary antenna while replacing the current ch 7 antenna with the new one. Sounds to me that people in the outer fringes of WHDH-DT's coverage area need to be prepared to get spotty reception for 2-4 months after 02/17/09 and some may lose the station entirely for 2-3 weeks when WHDH-DT switches to the auxiliary antenna.

Obviously when Congress settled on the Feb. 17, 2009 transition date, they did not consult with station engineers on whether this would be a good time of year to do major tower work in the much of the US. Oh well, what else is new in the eternal conflict between upper management and the engineers...
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post #626 of 7371 Old 02-19-2008, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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By the way, the Form 387 filings probably will take the rest of the week to clear, because so many filed. And, I bet there will be a few stragglers. And I also bet those could be fined by the FCC for not filing on time. The FCC is drop-dead serious about filing on time.

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post #627 of 7371 Old 02-19-2008, 06:50 PM
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Okay, I'm in the middle of working on this, right? I'm just about done with Arizona, and I might just finish in time for tonight's pile, if there is one.

There's one filing that has just stopped me in my tracks.

Can someone PLEASE tell me what the @$%& is going on in this one?

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=74449

- Trip

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post #628 of 7371 Old 02-19-2008, 07:38 PM
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Whew! All done, and just in time. Midnight is just an hour and 22 minutes away!

- Trip

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post #629 of 7371 Old 02-19-2008, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

There's one filing that has just stopped me in my tracks.

Can someone PLEASE tell me what the @$%& is going on in this one?

KYMA NBC 11 in Yuma, pre-DT 41, post-DT 11. Yea, this is a head-scratching 387, but they will be filing for a STA by March 20. My read is that analog 11 stops on 02/17/2009, but KYMA wants to keep their pre-DT 41 channel for up to a year (?) after Feb 17. Then there is a reference to operate on post-transition channel 12? Typo? Maybe the FCC should kick this back for clarification.

Quote:


WRAL: Will operate low-power as changes are made to the tower.

WRAL CBS 5 in Raleigh, NC with pre-DT 53, post-DT 48. Some serious antenna shuffling going on here in coordination with WRAZ. Sept-Oct 08: move DT 53 to side-mounted auxiliary antenna for 83.7% population coverage, replace DT 53 antenna with new DT 48 antenna on top of tower. Cut to DT 48 at 1/2 power on 02/17/09 for 85.2% population coverage, then upgrade 2nd half of transmitter. March 2009 - WRAL-DT goes full power. Short story: reduced WRAL-DT coverage from Sept/Oct 08 to March 2009. There will be some unhappy OTA viewers in the outer edges of the Raliegh market.
See http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/f...ibit_id=617875
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post #630 of 7371 Old 02-19-2008, 08:30 PM
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I'm one of them - I THINK I'll be OK, as I'm only 23 miles or so from the towers, but I'm in a forest. I'm thinking WRAL/WRAZ and the other stations are likely to be a bit harder than usual, but after March 2009 - things should look better for just about all stations. My big digital problem is WLFL - and it's otherwise on the same tower.

I'm waiting on the WLFL and WRDC and WNCN 387's to get a better idea on what's happening.

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...

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