The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread - Page 23 - AVS Forum
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post #661 of 7371 Old 02-21-2008, 02:49 PM
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I think the FCC did a mid-day update for the form 387s. I now see 1750 Form 387s submitted for application and 17 amendments received. I discovered this by searching for WHAG which was not there this morning as I recall.

WHAG NBC 25, pre-DT 55, post-DT 26: analog off 02/17/09, if application approved, schedule is for DT 26 to start up by 02/17/09 but has to coordinate with WETA PBS 26 in DC. Needs new antenna, new transmitter, encoders, and possibly new transmitter building. WHAG-DT is at low STA power because it got stuck with UHF 55.

WMPT, WMPB, WFPT (MPT in MD): analog off 02/17/09. Complaints that Appendix B values are wrong for WMPT & WMPB.
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post #662 of 7371 Old 02-21-2008, 04:25 PM
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Nothing unexpected for the Raleigh Durham market - all stations are now reported, no big surprises. The good news (and the bad news) - everybody is making all their final changes on Feb17, 2009. There will be some work after that, but nothing that should really effect viewers.

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post #663 of 7371 Old 02-21-2008, 06:29 PM
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Another item of interest in my review of the filings is the number upper VHF stations that are applying for contour expansions.

It appears that the max power for upper VHF is 160kW on DTV (not sure about which zones), but I only see one station at that level currently (KIII). KOAB was filed to join it at 160kW, in 2009, but I have yet to confirm this is still the case. Most 7-13 stations are around 16-25kW. However, a great many analog upper VHF stations are at the maximum of 316kW.

I have been told that UHF DTV stations were allowed a maximum of 1000kW in part due to trying to replicate VHF service areas, so the 1/5 ratio wasn't needed for upper VHF, but I'm beginning to question this again.

I'm slowly making my way through updating the spreadsheet, but it's probably going to be a few weeks.


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post #664 of 7371 Old 02-21-2008, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

Another item of interest in my review of the filings is the number upper VHF stations that are applying for contour expansions.

It appears that the max power for upper VHF is 160kW on DTV (not sure about which zones), but I only see one station at that level currently (KIII). KOAB was filed to join it at 160kW, in 2009, but I have yet to confirm this is still the case. Most 7-13 stations are around 16-25kW. However, a great many analog upper VHF stations are at the maximum of 316kW.

It's 30 kW in Zone I and 160 kW in Zone II/III.

Similarly, low-VHF is 10 kW in Zone I and 45 kW in Zone II/III. I don't think anyone's at that power level, though KHAS may have requested it.

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I have been told that UHF DTV stations were allowed a maximum of 1000kW in part due to trying to replicate VHF service areas, so the 1/5 ratio wasn't needed for upper VHF, but I'm beginning to question this again.

I'm slowly making my way through updating the spreadsheet, but it's probably going to be a few weeks.

Yeah, I started going through it again since the FCC updated again during the day.

Everything east of the Mississippi River except for Puerto Rico SHOULD be done now. I'll get the west later, my mind is telling me to go do something else because all these gray pages are mind-numbing.

Course I'll probably just tell my mind to tough it out because I'm so close to being done.

Then this weekend I can start entering facilities. Joy.

- Trip

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post #665 of 7371 Old 02-21-2008, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

It's 30 kW in Zone I and 160 kW in Zone II/III.

Similarly, low-VHF is 10 kW in Zone I and 45 kW in Zone II/III. I don't think anyone's at that power level, though KHAS may have requested it.

Great. Thanks for the info. Is 3.2kW of any significance? There are quite a few at that power level, which makes it seem like another cap for certain areas.

Also, can someone explain the significance of a "License to Cover"? Is this just a filing to make an STA or a CP into a fully licensed station or does it serve a different purpose?


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post #666 of 7371 Old 02-21-2008, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

Great. Thanks for the info. Is 3.2kW of any significance? There are quite a few at that power level, which makes it seem like another cap for certain areas.

Also, can someone explain the significance of a "License to Cover"? Is this just a filing to make an STA or a CP into a fully licensed station or does it serve a different purpose?

I don't know what's with the whole 3.2 kW thing, other than that upper-VHF analogs are at 316 kW and 3.2 kW is about 1/100 (-20dB? I'm still trying to understand dB measures) of that power level. That may have something to do with it.

You are correct, a license to cover just turns a CP into a licensed facility. It must be a CP, not an STA. The STA must first be made a CP, then covered.

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post #667 of 7371 Old 02-21-2008, 09:16 PM
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Alright, once again, everything but Texas and Puerto Rico should be finished.

The file is now 204KB.

- Trip

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post #668 of 7371 Old 02-21-2008, 10:45 PM
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Trip, you've done a great job on this. I don't know how you do it, balancing this with the rigors of keeping up with a college curriculum, but I'd say it's about time for you to take a break and maybe have a few beers.

I have a question regarding this Form 387 process.

These filings have all been "Accepted for Filing" by the FCC. Am I correct in assuming that that does not mean an ultimate "Granted" by the FCC? In other words, will some of these "plans" be rejected as not meeting the requirements of the Third Periodic Review?

Case in point is a station from my geographic area/DMA, KWGN. This station is currently operating under an STA with reduced power of 450 kW. Their CP is for full power of 1 mW. From my reading of the Third Periodic Review, KWGN falls under the 5-18-08 deadline to be full power since they are staying on their pre-transition channel, 34, post-transition. Two other stations in my DMA that fall into this category, KCNC and KTVD, will meet the 5-18-08 deadline for full power per their Form 387 filings.

KWGN appears to be attempting to make an end run around the Third Periodic Review. They do not plan to order their full power transmitter until 12-08 and don't plan to have it operational until 8-17-09, basing their planned actions on legal problems which were resolved approximately 1 year ago and applied equally to KCNC and KTVD and purporting that going full power earlier than 8-17-09 will adversely impact their analog operations.

This one seems to be a prime candidate for rejection by the FCC. Any comments? Here's the link to KWGN's attachment/explanation from their Form 387.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=35883
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post #669 of 7371 Old 02-22-2008, 12:29 AM
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My spreadsheet is now up to date through the 2/19 status filing.

I was looking at the filing for KLCS which is one of our local PBS stations. It looks like the lightning strike did more damage than I thought. KLCS analog has been very poor ever since, but I didn't know that the DTV antenna was also destroyed. The Aux DT antenna (90kW) is doing quite well it seems.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=38430
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/f...ibit_id=618322

I'm surprised that they are going to bother getting analog 58 back up to speed at this point. I don't know what the emergency analog STA ERP is, but it's probably under 200kW (more like an LP).


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post #670 of 7371 Old 02-22-2008, 05:25 AM
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I don't think Trip is old enough for a few cold ones , but yes, he deserves a pat on the back and a big thank you for his efforts.

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post #671 of 7371 Old 02-22-2008, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Scooper View Post

I don't think Trip is old enough for a few cold ones , but yes, he deserves a pat on the back and a big thank you for his efforts.

Don't you mean "pat on the head?"

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post #672 of 7371 Old 02-22-2008, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighmike View Post

These filings have all been "Accepted for Filing" by the FCC. Am I correct in assuming that that does not mean an ultimate "Granted" by the FCC? In other words, will some of these "plans" be rejected as not meeting the requirements of the Third Periodic Review?

Yes, these are filings for what the station wants to do. Some of them will probably be rejected, but given the complexities of the transition, the FCC's statements indicate that they will give the stations a lot more latitude than they would otherwise.

A number of these filings want changes to their final post-transition power and radiate pattern or for stations that are at their post-DT channel, complain that the Appendix B numbers do not match what they actually have or are licensed for. How many of those filings will be granted in time for the stations who want increased power or different radiate pattern is likely to be an issue.

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Originally Posted by milehighmike View Post

KWGN appears to be attempting to make an end run around the Third Periodic Review. They do not plan to order their full power transmitter until 12-08 and don't plan to have it operational until 8-17-09, basing their planned actions on legal problems which were resolved approximately 1 year ago and applied equally to KCNC and KTVD and purporting that going full power earlier than 8-17-09 will adversely impact their analog operations.
This one seems to be a prime candidate for rejection by the FCC. Any comments?

I don't see the problem with their plan unless you are in the population that is not covered by their 450 kW interim STA DT 34 broadcast. The attachment states that the current in-core DT 34 signal covers 92.5% of the analog service population. Their post DT channel is 34, so they are not blocking anyone else from the channel. Given the Denver climate, replacing an analog antenna and the transmission line in the middle of winter on a mountain top is obviously a problem. So they turn off analog on 02/17/2009, operate off of a STA 450 kW signal which is a strong power level albeit from a poorer location, and replace the antenna & transmitter when the weather improves in April-July, 2009. I would think the FCC would accept this. If you are in the Denver market, how difficult is it to get the KWGN-DT current digital signal over most of the larger metro area?
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post #673 of 7371 Old 02-22-2008, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by milehighmike View Post

Trip, you've done a great job on this. I don't know how you do it, balancing this with the rigors of keeping up with a college curriculum, but I'd say it's about time for you to take a break and maybe have a few beers.

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I don't think Trip is old enough for a few cold ones , but yes, he deserves a pat on the back and a big thank you for his efforts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Don't you mean "pat on the head?"

Hahaha, that's correct, I'm not old enough, but I've decided I don't want to drink either anyway. I had a couple glasses of milk to celebrate though.

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Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

Yes, these are filings for what the station wants to do. Some of them will probably be rejected, but given the complexities of the transition, the FCC's statements indicate that they will give the stations a lot more latitude than they would otherwise.

I remember seeing one station that wanted to leave their out-of-core DT station on the air post-transition (I may be mistaken) despite the rules saying that cannot be done, that sort of thing will be rejected. I imagine most of the rest will be accepted.

Quote:


A number of these filings want changes to their final post-transition power and radiate pattern or for stations that are at their post-DT channel, complain that the Appendix B numbers do not match what they actually have or are licensed for. How many of those filings will be granted in time for the stations who want increased power or different radiate pattern is likely to be an issue.

If a station already has built out its facilities, Appendix B will get changed, I have no doubt about that.

I imagine that the FCC will approve most of the antenna pattern changes relatively quickly, as opposed to forcing stations to operate at low power involuntarily, possibly cutting out viewers after the transition.

Quote:


I don't see the problem with their plan unless you are in the population that is not covered by their 450 kW interim STA DT 34 broadcast. The attachment states that the current in-core DT 34 signal covers 92.5% of the analog service population. Their post DT channel is 34, so they are not blocking anyone else from the channel. Given the Denver climate, replacing an analog antenna and the transmission line in the middle of winter on a mountain top is obviously a problem. So they turn off analog on 02/17/2009, operate off of a STA 450 kW signal which is a strong power level albeit from a poorer location, and replace the antenna & transmitter when the weather improves in April-July, 2009. I would think the FCC would accept this. If you are in the Denver market, how difficult is it to get the KWGN-DT current digital signal over most of the larger metro area?

Agreed. KCNC and KTVD are building a whole new tower, while KWGN is operating on their current tower. Two different situations that call for two different policies. Since there's no existing station operating on the KCNC/KTVD tower, they can do whatever they need. KWGN is limited by its current analog coverage and not wanting to reduce/silence it early.

As far as the web page goes, the whole thing should be done now. There are some stations that I didn't find filings for... And if you find any mistakes at all, please let me know. Stations flash-cutting to STAs that are missing do not count unless their STA is at severely reduced facilities. For example, I didn't specifically note KWGN as operating under an STA post-transition because coverage shouldn't differ too radically.

I plan to do some work on facilities over the weekend, but we'll see how far I get on that. I may try and find something else to do.

- Trip

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post #674 of 7371 Old 02-22-2008, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

My spreadsheet is now up to date through the 2/19 status filing.

I volunteer to fill in and double check while cross-referencing with Trip's list, the info for the Washington DC, Baltimore, and Salisbury, MD DMAs. I can send you the data via private message to paste it into your spreadsheet. Trip has done a huge job, but it helps to double check the info and have several people look at the confusing filings. I can also do the Philadelphia and Harrisburg, PA DMAs if you want.

I think what you and Trip is doing will be very useful to a lot of people. But it is important to be accurate as we can on the key information, so people in the different markets can be prepared for the transition. Especially for the major networks in the larger DMAs to cover the most people. If other people could volunteer to double check for their DMAs, I think that would help.

Once we get the info updated, we should generate some statistics and summaries such as:
# of stations shutting down analog early
# of stations reducing power for analog early
# of stations shutting down their pre-trans DT channel early or for an extended period.
# of stations reducing power for pre-trans DT channel early or for an extended period.
# and list of stations completing the DT transition early with analog off and pre-DT channel off if different.
List of stations that are going to go dark and won't provide a digital channel.
List of stations that are stuck waiting for a final DT assignment because of FCC delay or international approval problems.

If someone gets ambitious, maybe a list of stations which either don't have a 387 posted or may not have filed yet? I don't see one for KUQI, a new Fox affiliate in Corpus Christi area which is analog only which someone asked me about elsewhere on the net.
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post #675 of 7371 Old 02-22-2008, 12:29 PM
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I noticed that some of Trip's links to 387 forms bring up blank forms where a day or two ago they were filled in forms. KTVU San Francisco and KSBW Monterey are two such stations.

Any idea what happened?

Chuck


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post #676 of 7371 Old 02-22-2008, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

I volunteer to fill in and double check while cross-referencing with Trip's list, the info for the Washington DC, Baltimore, and Salisbury, MD DMAs. I can send you the data via private message to paste it into your spreadsheet. Trip has done a huge job, but it helps to double check the info and have several people look at the confusing filings. I can also do the Philadelphia and Harrisburg, PA DMAs if you want.

Thanks, afiggatt! Sounds like a plan, as long as I can remember to skip those.

I'm updating using the Form 387's and exhibits, rather than just copying what Trip has put up, so we can cross reference and compare, etc. I have not had time to compare my results for most stations with his yet, but plan to do so for the tricky ones.


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post #677 of 7371 Old 02-22-2008, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

I noticed that some of Trip's links to 387 forms bring up blank forms where a day or two ago they were filled in forms. KTVU San Francisco and KSBW Monterey are two such stations.

Any idea what happened?

Chuck

No, that's odd. I'll correct those in a few minutes, when I get back to my dorm. If you find any more, please let me know.

- Trip

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post #678 of 7371 Old 02-22-2008, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

I noticed that some of Trip's links to 387 forms bring up blank forms where a day or two ago they were filled in forms. KTVU San Francisco and KSBW Monterey are two such stations.

Any idea what happened?

Chuck

Shoot. I think I know what's wrong, and it's not going to be fun to fix. I haven't changed the link, but try KTVU now. If it works for you, and KSBW still does not, then my guess is correct, and I have a lot of work cut out for me this weekend.

In the mean time, go check out WTVE on my page. Tell me what you think. (This is addressed to everyone, by the way)

- Trip

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post #679 of 7371 Old 02-22-2008, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Shoot. I think I know what's wrong, and it's not going to be fun to fix. I haven't changed the link, but try KTVU now. If it works for you, and KSBW still does not, then my guess is correct, and I have a lot of work cut out for me this weekend.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but KTVU is fixed and KSBW is not. If it's any encouragement, I think you're doing great work putting all these together in one concise source!

Quote:


In the mean time, go check out WTVE on my page. Tell me what you think. (This is addressed to everyone, by the way)

- Trip

I never heard of a DTS broadcast TV system before. I wonder if there are interference problems between the various transmitters? There must be overlap.

Chuck


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post #680 of 7371 Old 02-22-2008, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but KTVU is fixed and KSBW is not. If it's any encouragement, I think you're doing great work putting all these together in one concise source!

I never heard of a DTS broadcast TV system before. I wonder if there are interference problems between the various transmitters? There must be overlap.

Chuck

Crud. Yeah, turns out the links I'm using are no good. I have to change them all now. Yes, all of them. No, I'm not pleased.

Basically, the FCC has a blank form page. When someone clicks a link off their search page, it loads a "pre-fill" page where it fills in the data from the database into the form. It then stores this page for a few days.

What I did was I searched for KTVU on the FCC site, then clicked the search link. It repopulated the page because it went through that pre-fill process. I have to change all the links to that pre-fill link instead of directly to the forms.

I wish I had a way I could automatically clear all the links out of the page. It'd make my life a lot easier.

As far as the DTS is concerned, they're laid out in such a way as to not overlap, or where there is overlap, the signals are supposed to sync up so as to not present as multipath interference. WTVE is not the first--I think WPIX has that honor--but if you search "DTS" on my web page, you'll see that WTVE will likely not be the last.

I expect to see many rimshot stations request to operate DTS. Just look at the power WTVE-DTS7 has.

- Trip

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post #681 of 7371 Old 02-22-2008, 05:21 PM
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Well trip - there's good news and bad news on your dilemma -
Good - it appears the following is always the same -
[text]http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=[/text]

what changes for every facility - [text]1232833[/text]
stays - [text]&Service=TV&Form_id=387&Facility_id=[/text]
changes - [text]35582[/text]

You basically have 2 fields that change for every facility
This SHOULD be not too bad to cut/paste a change if you can use a real text editor

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...

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post #682 of 7371 Old 02-22-2008, 05:26 PM
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Meh, I've started just changing out the links one by one. I need to go through and add facility data anyway, so I'll do it all in one run. NY, LA, and Chicago are already done. Philly's in progress. Oddly, I already had the correct link in place for WLVT.

- Trip

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post #683 of 7371 Old 02-23-2008, 02:22 AM
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I've gone through all of the San Francisco, Sacramento and Monterey DMA 387s. Every station is accounted for. I've done an overview of each station and have made lots of notes. I'll check over these three DMAs on Trip's list and on Falcon's spreadsheet, and I'll let you know if I find any incorrect information. Falcon, let me know when you've completed all of the 387's and I'll post an updated copy of the spreadsheet on my site.

Kudos to both of you for your excellent work on the list and spreadsheet!

In my review I noticed that three stations that transmit from Sutro Tower indicate that they're using their "fully authorized final DTV (post-transition) facility" when, in fact, they are in the same group as the other stations on the tower. They won't be on their final antenna until October, '09, but they didn't include any exhibit information like the others. They are: KBCW, KCNS and KFSF.

After looking over the Sutro plans, I've determined the dates for the various steps in the antenna change process:
-- In December of this year they're going to installed a combined antenna cluster at mid-tower that will be used as the alternate/back up digital antennas.
-- All except KGO 7 will continue to operate on their present temporary, combined antenna cluster after the transition. KGO will use its present analog antenna for digital operation.
-- After 2-17-09, they will be removing all of the antennas used for analog operation at the top of the tower and replacing them with new permantent UHF antennas for the combined operation. The UHF stations have all agreed to use combined antennas and feedline systems. KGO will have its old antenna replaced with a new one during this process. They will do one tower stack at a time, removing the old and installing the new, before going on to the next tower stack. They plan to have all of the work completed so that all stations are operating on their permanent new antennas prior to October 18, 2009. As I said previously, I'll post photos of the work in progress. It's going to be fun to watch the changes!

During the day when crews are working at the top of the tower removing and installing the antennas, stations will use the new alternate/back up antennas at the tower mid-point so that the crew won't be cooked by the RF.

Larry
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post #684 of 7371 Old 02-23-2008, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

I've gone through all of the San Francisco, Sacramento and Monterey DMA 387s. Every station is accounted for. I've done an overview of each station and have made lots of notes. I'll check over these three DMAs on Trip's list and on Falcon's spreadsheet, and I'll let you know if I find any incorrect information. Falcon, let me know when you've completed all of the 387's and I'll post an updated copy of the spreadsheet on my site.

Kudos to both of you for your excellent work on the list and spreadsheet!

Thanks! I do appreciate you running through my information; I want it to be as accurate as possible. If you happen to find any information about final digital facilities that I may miss, please let me know. All those question marks floating around are bothering me.

I'm still working on relinking and trying to fill in facilities where I can. (As of this post, I just finished Detroit) I'm trying to gain information both from Form 387 and from any attachments. If a station says they're using an existing analog antenna, I'm putting its height and whether it's directional or not without any power data. If they say they're going to reuse another station's facilities, I'm copying those facilities.

- Trip

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post #685 of 7371 Old 02-23-2008, 09:17 AM
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Any ideas why KASY-DT and KWBQ-DT is not on the list? This is from Albuqurque DMA.

Is the FCC still behind the paperwork or is's the stations forget to file the form to the FCC?

2-23-08

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post #686 of 7371 Old 02-23-2008, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N5XZS View Post

Any ideas why KASY-DT and KWBQ-DT is not on the list? This is from Albuqurque DMA.

Is the FCC still behind the paperwork or is's the stations forget to file the form to the FCC?

2-23-08

It looks to me like all of AcmeTV stations didn't file:

WBUW, WIWB, WBDT, WBXX, KRWB, in addition to the two you mentioned.

I don't know WHY they didn't file, but they're not the only ones. Others include WPPB and WADL.

- Trip

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post #687 of 7371 Old 02-23-2008, 11:30 AM
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They may have filed but the FCC hasn't assigned filing numbers yet. It sometimes take a while and with the number that I am sure came in, we may be seeing more in the coming days. My onw station, we filed on the 18th but didn't get a filing number until the 19th posted on 21st.

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post #688 of 7371 Old 02-23-2008, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

In my review I noticed that three stations that transmit from Sutro Tower indicate that they're using their "fully authorized final DTV (post-transition) facility" when, in fact, they are in the same group as the other stations on the tower. They won't be on their final antenna until October, '09, but they didn't include any exhibit information like the others. They are: KBCW, KCNS and KFSF.

I was wondering about this when I looked at KFSF's filing. Will the current DTV "middle" combination antenna be completely removed when all of this is done? I'm assuming that the backup/Aux DTV antennas will eventually be installed near the base in place of the current analog Aux antennas. I will look forward to the pictures of the work.

I have done some more updating and hope that I've reached the half-way point. Afiggatt has also helped out on several DMA's (thanks!). Currently I am going State by State, rather than sequential by filing, working backwards. I have finished up to SC, but have skipped TX for now as I will probably have to spend a day just on that State.


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post #689 of 7371 Old 02-23-2008, 11:53 AM
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My webpage should now be finished or close to it for markets 1-30. Links have been replaced and facilities added where known.

- Trip

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post #690 of 7371 Old 02-23-2008, 01:31 PM
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My webpage should now be finished or close to it for markets 1-30. Links have been replaced and facilities added where known.

- Trip

Well, it appears that if anyone re-runs the application search, the data will return. All the ones that I've entered over the past couple days appear to be working, but the older ones don't until I re-run a manual search.

So, if someone can re-run the searches for each every few days, it should be fine.

I've been linking as many exhibits as forms and the exhibits appear to be ok, for now...

The cut and paste process will be arduous, so I will need to see how to handle this. I won't be linking any filled forms going forward. The spreadsheet has been growing too quickly with these links as it is.


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