The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread - Page 239 - AVS Forum
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post #7141 of 7371 Old 09-12-2011, 01:13 PM
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A story in today's edition of "TV Technology" says that President Obama’s proposed jobs bill assumes that incentive TV spectrum auctions will bring around $28 billion in proceeds. The American Jobs Act, delivered to Congress last week, includes support for the Administration’s Nationwide Broadband Plan.

Read the article for all the details about the proposed auctions and the congressional bills involving the auctioning off of spectrum.

http://tvtechnology.com/article/124414

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post #7142 of 7371 Old 09-12-2011, 03:43 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

A story in today's edition of "TV Technology" says that President Obama's proposed jobs bill assumes that incentive TV spectrum auctions will bring around $28 billion in proceeds. The American Jobs Act, delivered to Congress last week, includes support for the Administration's Nationwide Broadband Plan.

Read the article for all the details about the proposed auctions and the congressional bills involving the auctioning off of spectrum.

http://tvtechnology.com/article/124414

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National Broadband Plan? You mean the plan where spectrum gets stolen from OTA TV so that at&t and Verizon can provide rural people with "broadband" for $80 a month for a measly 10 GB with $10 per GB overage fees? That plan?

The Rockefeller-Hutchison legislation, S.911, provides that no full-power TV licensee would be forced to give up spectrum for an incentive auction, but that those who do would receive a portion of the proceeds

And if NO ONE "volunteers" how does the government expect to get spectrum?
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post #7143 of 7371 Old 09-12-2011, 08:47 PM
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My guess is that the definition of "give up" is key. If a full-power station in the sought-after UHF spectrum is forced to move to another channel in, say, the VHF band, they weren't forced to "give up" spectrum. They started with 6 MHz and ended up with 6 MHz; they "gave up" nothing.

That's the kind of semantic games the gov't loves to play.
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post #7144 of 7371 Old 09-12-2011, 09:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by dhett View Post

My guess is that the definition of "give up" is key. If a full-power station in the sought-after UHF spectrum is forced to move to another channel in, say, the VHF band, they weren't forced to "give up" spectrum. They started with 6 MHz and ended up with 6 MHz; they "gave up" nothing.

That's the kind of semantic games the gov't loves to play.

In many areas there won't be any available place to move a channel.
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post #7145 of 7371 Old 09-13-2011, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

I did some digging into one of the nuances of the ATSC rules. Thoughts and opinions are appreciated. http://www.rabbitears.info/blog/inde...rogram_Numbers

- Trip

Program 1 is used by many stations. Modern gear has user-definable PIDs, but some of the really early stuff (Flexicoder? DCII?) based the PIDs off of the program number, so when the 0x30+ requirement took effect, the easy solution was to just start using program 3 and above only. While few major stations are left using old junk like that, many have carried over the program 3+ into the modern day because to change it would break things for a lot of viewers, at least until they rescanned. Breaking things for viewers for no reason is a good way to piss off the bosses, so I doubt many engineers are going to be rearranging things any time soon. The only viewer experience with the program number is if the PSIP generator takes a crap (which you probably want to know about anyway), so I don't really see a problem with the current system.
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post #7146 of 7371 Old 09-13-2011, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

... many have carried over the program 3+ into the modern day because to change it would break things for a lot of viewers, at least until they rescanned. Breaking things for viewers for no reason is a good way to piss off the bosses, so I doubt many engineers are going to be rearranging things any time soon.

Most early equipment defaulted to using the so-called program paradigm where PID values are tied to program numbers. Our orginal configuration (in 2003) started with 0x20 and program 2 because 0x10 was already not allowed. When the requirement to use 0x30 and above took effect and because the rules didn't disallow it I changed our encoding and PSIP to start with 0x30 and program number 1. What we got were phone calls from folks using older STBs that refused to tune to this scheme including one or two we had at the station (even after re-scanning).
While most newer equipment defaults to program 1 and PID 0x30 and most older ATSC STBs coupled with monitors without built-in tuners are probably retired by now, unless you're making other changes that would force users to re-scan I don't see any compelling reason to change just so the first program is called number 1 (which is hidden from the viewer and mapped to the .1 service anyway).
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post #7147 of 7371 Old 09-27-2011, 01:51 PM
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If you've ever wondered what the original WTVE 8-site DTS looked like before it was pared down to the 2 sites it has today, I figured it out and generated maps.

Contours: http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.p...=Y&size=&map=N

Longley-Rice: http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.p...=N&size=&map=Y

Both: http://www.rabbitears.info/contour.p...=Y&size=&map=Y

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post #7148 of 7371 Old 09-29-2011, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

If you've ever wondered what the original WTVE 8-site DTS looked like?

The sale of WTVE was announced today.

http://www.tvnewscheck.com/article/2...ation-for-304m
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post #7149 of 7371 Old 09-29-2011, 01:24 PM
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Yep, bought up by a spectrum speculator.

- Trip

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post #7150 of 7371 Old 09-30-2011, 08:06 AM
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Did all 8 make air? Will the CP to replace the DTS with one site at North Fancy get built? I can't imagine putting 8 sites on the air, shuttering 6 of them, then dropping the rest, especially the Roxborough site, for yet another installation.
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post #7151 of 7371 Old 09-30-2011, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Loudin View Post

Did all 8 make air? Will the CP to replace the DTS with one site at North Fancy get built? I can't imagine putting 8 sites on the air, shuttering 6 of them, then dropping the rest, especially the Roxborough site, for yet another installation.

I know the Bethlehem site is not on the air because I have driven right past it several times and if it was there, the spectrum analyzer would have showed it. I should think the 8 made it on the air since they did testing with it but I wonder if someone else paid for the extended network while WTVE just paid for the two it's kept.

I'm not sure why they filed the 900 kW permit, it is the signal on which the DTS is based though. I don't see them dropping the DTS when it gives them a very nice signal from Roxborough.

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post #7152 of 7371 Old 09-30-2011, 10:12 AM
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They had to go through a lot to get the nice signal at Rox - a complex panel antenna that has different beam tilts plus having to put a temporary antenna up for another station while their antenna was being installed.
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post #7153 of 7371 Old 10-07-2011, 01:00 PM
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And so it begins for the Canadians. CKSH-9 in Sherbrooke, QC has applied to boost power from 4.47 kW DA to 36.3 kW DA.

- Trip

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post #7154 of 7371 Old 10-08-2011, 07:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

And so it begins for the Canadians. CKSH-9 in Sherbrooke, QC has applied to boost power from 4.47 kW DA to 36.3 kW DA.

- Trip

You think that since they had 2 years to see the USA mistakes in this they woud have learned something.
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post #7155 of 7371 Old 10-11-2011, 09:17 AM
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AMENDMENT OF SECTION 73.622(I), POST-TRANSITION TABLE OF DTV ALLOTMENTS, TELEVISION BROADCAST STATIONS (CLEVELAND, OHIO).

Substitution of channel 31 for channel 8 at Cleveland, Ohio for WJW(TV). (Dkt No. RM-11644 11-159 ). Action by: Chief, Video Division, Media Bureau. Adopted: 10/07/2011 by NPRM. (DA No. 11-1690).

http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Rele...-11-1690A1.pdf
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post #7156 of 7371 Old 10-11-2011, 05:22 PM
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I feel like a large weight has been lifted...off my OTA viewing problems list.
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post #7157 of 7371 Old 10-11-2011, 05:24 PM
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Trip, Falcon, anyone...is there a way to look up what WJW-DT was running power-wise pre-transition? I can't find it in the FCC database, but I THINK it was a bit more than the 600 kW specified in that NPRM.
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post #7158 of 7371 Old 10-11-2011, 07:22 PM
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625 kW. Should make no difference at all. (I suspect the slight drop in power was to ease the whole Canadian coordination concern.)

- Trip

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post #7159 of 7371 Old 10-12-2011, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

625 kW. Should make no difference at all. (I suspect the slight drop in power was to ease the whole Canadian coordination concern.)

Good.

Of course, WJW is coming in like gangbusters today on 8, but I suspect it's atmosphere-related and will probably go away. 31 will solve all those problems for me. The pre-transition 31 facility was one of my strongest signals.
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post #7160 of 7371 Old 10-12-2011, 01:33 PM
 
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Good.

Of course, WJW is coming in like gangbusters today on 8, but I suspect it's atmosphere-related and will probably go away. 31 will solve all those problems for me. The pre-transition 31 facility was one of my strongest signals.

Could be but I doubt it. Hi-VHF is less susceptible to tropo.
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post #7161 of 7371 Old 10-12-2011, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

Could be but I doubt it. Hi-VHF is less susceptible to tropo.

Not true. I can get a station from Alpena, MI from 60 miles west of Chicago on channel 9 with a VHF antenna pointed 90 degrees off several times each spring, summer and fall. And I get "full" power, yet lower power HI-VHF stations from Grand Rapids, MI, too.

Gilbert
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post #7162 of 7371 Old 10-12-2011, 10:33 PM
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For me, I've gotten WMVS Milwaukee on RF 8 in Gary, IN on occasion. I never got them when they were on RF 10 analog, but have gotten them in digital though. VHF is actually more suseptible to tropo than UHF. Why do you think stations on the VHF have been known to be picked up hundreds of miles during warmer weather (especially on VHF-Lo)? I knew someone who used to get WTWO Terre Haute on RF 2 in the analog days over WBBM-TV (also on RF 2 in the analog days).
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post #7163 of 7371 Old 10-13-2011, 07:01 AM
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Digital TV is more subject to weather conditions...I wasn't talking about trop, unless somehow WJW was getting affected by something else on 8 (WLIO?).

I'm talking about rain vs. clear skies, clouds, etc. The solid stations generally don't go away due to that, but marginal ones might (or might come in better temporarily). It's not trop, it's garden variety weather.
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post #7164 of 7371 Old 10-13-2011, 09:19 AM
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I've been doing this radio and TV stuff for over 40 years and I've heard a lot of myths and misinformation over the years.

The most popular myth these days is that rain attenuates VHF/UHF signals. It does not. This myth seems to have come about because of the well known rain fade affect on satellite TV signals. Rain fade occurs when the size of the raindrops becomes a significant percentage of a 1/4 wavelength of the frequency. This starts to occur more frequently around 10 GHz. Raindrops cannot reach the size of a 1/4 wave on UHF.

Anyone who has signals that disappear when it rains is just unaware that they're relying on some amount of atmospheric bending of the signals to receive them in the first place.

Temperature inversions are what bends the signals. It doesn't take a very strong inversion to have some affect. Just the normal day/night cycle is enough to bring in a station that needs a little help. Solar heating tends to break up the inversions in the daytime, especially in the afternoon, which is why so many people complain about poor reception in the afternoon. Around sunset inversions reform as the atmosphere stabilizes and many report better reception.

Each situation is different though and the exact location of the transmitter, your location, the elevations at each end, and what's in between make a lot of difference. These factors can account for nearly all of the vast array of experiences that people have with reception.

I can receive stations from more than 10 different transmitter sites so there isn't much I haven't experienced here. Compared to most people's experiences with DTV reception, I have the opposite experience with my local stations. My local antenna farm is Walnut Grove which is 54 miles away over a 2 edge path. Those antennas are about 2000' above sea level. My antennas are 2650' above sea level. Not many people live at a higher altitude than the transmitters. My best reception is in the afternoon with no inversions and can be quite poor on some nights depending on the height of the inversions.

A typical evening cycle here is good reception in the late afternoon, then a decrease in the signals around and after sunset, and then a return to normal later in the evening. I believe what is happening here is that an inversion forms below me but above the transmit antennas causing the signals to be bent down thus decreasing my signal strength. Later on the inversion lowers below the transmit antennas, there is no bending, and the signals return to daytime levels.

As to the affect of inversions on VHF versus UHF, from what I've read and what I've experienced would indicate that UHF is affected more, and I understand microwaves are affected even more. This is not to say that high VHF is unaffected. I've seen 30 db increases on high VHF on some paths but 40 dB increases on UHF on the same path. I've seen some pretty dramatic increases even on channel 2.

The issue of tropospheric ducting and the affects of temperature inversions is a little more confusing since people mean different things when they talk about this. Often tropospheric ducting is used to describe the more typical extended bending of a signal that allows it to be received a couple hundred miles away. Other times it means an actual duct in the atmosphere where a signal is trapped between 2 layers in the atmosphere and can be propagated for thousands of miles like the one that occurs between the west coast and Hawaii in the summer. Stations at each end of the duct have to be at the right altitude to get signals in and out of the duct. I suspect that most of what we experience with DTV is just signal bending to extend the range and not true ducting.

Yesterday morning I experienced an unusual path to the south. I received strong signals from KEYT and KPMR from Broadcast Peak north of Santa Barbara which is 257 miles from here and my most distant DTV reception. KEYT had to override KEXT-CA analog on 27 and KPMR had to override KMAX on 21 which is a local 1 MW station.

Chuck
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post #7165 of 7371 Old 10-13-2011, 05:30 PM
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Tropospheric refractive indices are higher for UHF than VHF (and so are the free-space and real-world signal losses). At the longer wavelengths of VHF true ducting becomes a rare event - I can count on my fingers the number of times that I got it on low-VHF from Florida vs scores of events on UHF NTSC. See http://www.qsl.net/wa5iyx/WESH-2.htm and http://www.qsl.net/wa5iyx/UHFTVDX.htm as an example. I used to think that our trans-Gulf ducting went away in the daytime due to each end burning off over land, but now it appears that it's more likely that it just elevates during the day.

BTW, the first 1000-mi + DTV tropo logging seems to have been made this past May with a Melbourne, FL Ch 43 into Massachusetts. My best DTV tropo is still 995-mi Tampa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsOTvYVXY-M
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post #7166 of 7371 Old 10-14-2011, 08:30 AM
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I've heard about the over the gulf duct. I think there's a similar one that forms over southern Australia. I'm sure you'll never hear of 1000 mile ducts on the west coast. Terrain gets in the way.

Chuck
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post #7167 of 7371 Old 10-14-2011, 10:49 AM
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Trop affects UHF more easily than VHF, but it is often great on VHF-high as well. Some of the appeal of UHF trop in the analog days may have been from the facts that the UHF band was less congested and UHF antennas more directional.

On very rare occasions, I've had trop on VHF without any trop on UHF (Little Rock opening of 2006) - even a couple events of lowband-only trop.
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post #7168 of 7371 Old 10-14-2011, 11:31 AM
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Let's try this again (if my SWBell/AT&T DSL doesn't keep dropping out ...)

Local vegetation can be a large factor. My UHF became more problematic after the trees grew large here (new development c. 1971) after the 1980s. My 20' AGL 8-bay bow-tie UHF (now a CM-4228) still has a good shot east (along the apexes of the other houses rooftops), but there are more-distant terrain issues http://www.qsl.net/wa5iyx/myhorizon.htm at those azimuths to deal with.

I'm always hoping that a 144-MHz Es event will link into that Hawaiian duct, but the great-circle path from here is across Mexico and off the coast - so it could there without a hint FM stations have been logged via ducting on the Big Island from coastal (southern) California and over to the (mainland - not just Baja) west coast of Mexico.
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post #7169 of 7371 Old 10-14-2011, 06:25 PM
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*oops*
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post #7170 of 7371 Old 10-19-2011, 09:17 AM
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AMENDMENT OF SECTION 73.622(I), POST-TRANSITION TABLE OF DTV ALLOTMENTS, TELEVISION BROADCAST STATIONS (PANAMA CITY, FLORIDA). Issued a Substitution of channel 18 for channel 7 at Panama City, Florida for station WJHG-TV. (Dkt No. 11-140 RM-11683 ). Action by: Chief, Video Division, Media Bureau. Adopted: 10/18/2011 by R&O. (DA No. 11-1735).

http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Rele...-11-1735A1.pdf
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