The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread - Page 244 - AVS Forum
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post #7291 of 7371 Old 12-18-2011, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ADTech View Post

Dynamic multi-path.

So, out of curiosity, other than short term multi-path and dynamic multi-path, could you provide a list of other mulri-path issues that are commonly encountered?

You never know where the LIMIT is until you EXCEED it... Dianne B. "Let's try that again... without the oops." (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum in "Independence Day")
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post #7292 of 7371 Old 12-18-2011, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by OTAhead View Post

could you provide a list of other mulri-path issues that are commonly encountered?

As long as we are playing 20 questions.

Other then narrowing beam width is there anything else an antenna designer is able to do to minimize multipath?

/tom
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post #7293 of 7371 Old 12-18-2011, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Tschmidt View Post

As long as we are playing 20 questions.

Other then narrowing beam width is there anything else an antenna designer is able to do to minimize multipath?

Some designs can reject multipath without losing directionality. Bow-tie antennas (like the coat-hanger ) are supposed to be good at that.

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post #7294 of 7371 Old 12-19-2011, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Tschmidt View Post

As long as we are playing 20 questions.

Other then narrowing beam width is there anything else an antenna designer is able to do to minimize multipath?

/tom

Better front to back and front to side ratios will reduce multipath.

In a situation where the multipath is airplane flutter, reduced vertical beamwidth also helps.
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post #7295 of 7371 Old 12-30-2011, 01:45 AM
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Is the deadline to clear channels 52 through 69 of all TV stations still December 31, 2011?

Ron

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post #7296 of 7371 Old 12-30-2011, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

Is the deadline to clear channels 52 through 69 of all TV stations still December 31, 2011?

Ron

I don't think so... As far as I know, there is an analog channel 56 (KQHO-LP) near Houston that has a CP to move into Houston and change the City of License from Beaumont to Houston...

The CP expires on 09-01-2015.

You never know where the LIMIT is until you EXCEED it... Dianne B. "Let's try that again... without the oops." (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum in "Independence Day")
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post #7297 of 7371 Old 12-30-2011, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr1394 View Post

Is the deadline to clear channels 52 through 69 of all TV stations still December 31, 2011?

Ron

Yes it is, but that has not stopped many rural translators from filing STAs seeking to delay it another few months. I don't think the FCC has acted on them yet.

- Trip

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post #7298 of 7371 Old 12-30-2011, 05:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTAhead View Post

I don't think so... As far as I know, there is an analog channel 56 (KQHO-LP) near Houston that has a CP to move into Houston and change the City of License from Beaumont to Houston...

The CP expires on 09-01-2015.

Hate to tell you but in 2 days it won't be on the air.


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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Yes it is, but that has not stopped many rural translators from filing STAs seeking to delay it another few months. I don't think the FCC has acted on them yet.

- Trip

The FCC won't delay anything.

http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Rele...-11-1375A1.pdf

Released: August 11, 2011

1. In this Order we deny a Motion forStay (“Stay Request”) filed by the National Translator Association (“NTA”) of the effectiveness of paragraphs 23 through 35 of the Second Report and Order adopted in the above-captioned proceeding,

2. In the Second Report and Order, the Commission required low power television and TV translator stations (collectively, “low power television stations”) on the “out-of-core” channels in the 700 MHz band (former television channels 52-69) to transition to an “in-core” digital channel(television channels 2-51 excluding channel 37) by December 31, 2011.

The Commission found that low power television stations have had sufficient notice that they would be required to clear the 700 MHz band and that the continued successful development of new commercial wireless and public safety facilities in the 700 MHz band will be greatly facilitated by requiring that all remaining analog and digital low power television stations be cleared from these channels by that date.

In addition, the Commission required that all low power television stations with facilities on channels 52-69, that have not already done so, to submit a digital displacement application proposing an in-core channel no later than September 1, 2011.

Stations that failed to submit the required displacementapplication by the September 1, 2011 deadline would be required to cease operation of their out-of-core facility by December 31, 2011 and would lose their authorization.

The Commission provided that stations could seek a waiver of the September 1, 2011 application filing deadline; however, all out-of-core operations must cease by December 31, 2011.
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post #7299 of 7371 Old 12-30-2011, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by BCF68 View Post

Hate to tell you but in 2 days it won't be on the air.






[/b]

Doesn't bother me. I was just going by the expiration date on the CP. In fact, even though the station was granted a License To Cover by the FCC, it actually was never built! It has never been on the tower they claim to be on. Has never broadcast a signal. I will be glad to see it deleted and removed from the database. We have a couple more in our area that have done the same thing. Two, I think are under investigation now, one I have word will be deleted soon, and another that needs to be investigated. I would like for them to be prosecuted for making willful mis-statements on government documents, to tell the truth...

You never know where the LIMIT is until you EXCEED it... Dianne B. "Let's try that again... without the oops." (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum in "Independence Day")
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post #7300 of 7371 Old 12-30-2011, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTAhead View Post

Doesn't bother me. I was just going by the expiration date on the CP. In fact, even though the station was granted a License To Cover by the FCC, it actually was never built! It has never been on the tower they claim to be on. Has never broadcast a signal. I will be glad to see it deleted and removed from the database. We have a couple more in our area that have done the same thing. Two, I think are under investigation now, one I have word will be deleted soon, and another that needs to be investigated. I would like for them to be prosecuted for making willful mis-statements on government documents, to tell the truth...

LMO Christian Media owns it - that's no surprise. They and Hispanic Christian Community Network are two of the biggest offenders in what I call "phantom stations". Here in AZ, HCCN has several phantoms, and even sold one to LMO. To no one's surprise, the station continues to be a phantom. The M.O. for both is to buy a rural station and get it licensed without ever going on air, then to file a series of applications to step the "station" into a large city, where they sell the license at a profit. Sound familiar? KQHO was also owned by HCCN and sold to LMO. It has been moved from Beaumont to Houston.

As a Christian, I find the sleaze of it all especially shameful, as they dare to drag the title of "Christian" into their shady dealings. Gerald Benavides is another such sleaze. All 3 are HQ'd out of the D/FW Metroplex.

KQHO's CP is to cut to DTV on ch 20, and that really is good until 9/1/2015, but if they had actually been operating, they would need to cease operations on ch 56 after 12/31 until they got ch 20 up and running. A correct example of this is K55DB, a PBS translator in Prescott AZ, who has filed a silent STA and will be off the air beginning Saturday night, until they get their digital facility up and running on ch. 43.
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post #7301 of 7371 Old 12-31-2011, 04:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dhett View Post

LMO Christian Media owns it - that's no surprise. They and Hispanic Christian Community Network are two of the biggest offenders in what I call "phantom stations". Here in AZ, HCCN has several phantoms, and even sold one to LMO. To no one's surprise, the station continues to be a phantom. The M.O. for both is to buy a rural station and get it licensed without ever going on air, then to file a series of applications to step the "station" into a large city, where they sell the license at a profit. Sound familiar? KQHO was also owned by HCCN and sold to LMO. It has been moved from Beaumont to Houston.

As a Christian, I find the sleaze of it all especially shameful, as they dare to drag the title of "Christian" into their shady dealings. Gerald Benavides is another such sleaze. All 3 are HQ'd out of the D/FW Metroplex.

KQHO's CP is to cut to DTV on ch 20, and that really is good until 9/1/2015, but if they had actually been operating, they would need to cease operations on ch 56 after 12/31 until they got ch 20 up and running. A correct example of this is K55DB, a PBS translator in Prescott AZ, who has filed a silent STA and will be off the air beginning Saturday night, until they get their digital facility up and running on ch. 43.

Sounds very familiar. How do they get away with this with the FCC?

Phantom stations. Now I know what to call them. Irks me to no end...
Thanks for the backstory.

You never know where the LIMIT is until you EXCEED it... Dianne B. "Let's try that again... without the oops." (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum in "Independence Day")
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post #7302 of 7371 Old 12-31-2011, 08:29 AM
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I like "phantom stations" too. We have lots of those around here. They play all sorts of paperwork games with the FCC but the stations never come on the air.

Chuck
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post #7303 of 7371 Old 12-31-2011, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OTAhead View Post

Sounds very familiar. How do they get away with this with the FCC?

I think that the key is that there are so many LPTV/translator stations out there, the FCC doesn't have even close to the staff necessary to check all of them out, so they concentrate on the full-powers (although not always well either) and rely on complaints from the public or from honest operators themselves to police the low-power stations. Applications for license seem to be routinely granted for low-power stations, especially rural ones, without anyone ever checking if the station is actually operating.

I've seen stations with licenses where I cannot even find any kind of tower at the location specified. I've seen stations go silent for years at a time without ever notifying the FCC and without losing their licenses, while operators honest enough to report a silent station lose their licenses after being silent for 12 months. I've even heard - but I cannot verify the story - of one owner who claimed to be operating from a certain tower, and when informed of it, it was news to the tower owner!

I've wrestled with whether or not I should rat out these owners, especially at license renewal time, but in the end, I decided that the FCC really isn't even concerned. They have bigger fish to fry, like taking spectrum from OTA TV and selling it for broadband use. Then again, that might be the thing that makes the plans of these spectrum peddlers backfire: once the OTA TV band is reduced, there won't be any spectrum available in large cities for LPTV operators anyway, so those licenses the peddlers procured will become worthless in the end.
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post #7304 of 7371 Old 12-31-2011, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhett View Post

I think that the key is that there are so many LPTV/translator stations out there, the FCC doesn't have even close to the staff necessary to check all of them out, so they concentrate on the full-powers (although not always well either) and rely on complaints from the public or from honest operators themselves to police the low-power stations. Applications for license seem to be routinely granted for low-power stations, especially rural ones, without anyone ever checking if the station is actually operating.

I've seen stations with licenses where I cannot even find any kind of tower at the location specified. I've seen stations go silent for years at a time without ever notifying the FCC and without losing their licenses, while operators honest enough to report a silent station lose their licenses after being silent for 12 months. I've even heard - but I cannot verify the story - of one owner wholly claimed to be operating from a certain tower, and when informed of it, it was news to the tower owner!

I've wrestled with whether or not I should rat out these owners, especially at license renewal time, but in the end, I decided that the FCC really isn't even concerned. They have bigger fish to fry, like taking spectrum from OTA TV and selling it for broadband use. Then again, that might be the thing that makes the plans of these spectrum peddlers backfire: once the OTA TV band is reduced, there won't be any spectrum available in large cities for LPTV operators anyway, so those licenses the peddlers procured will become worthless in the end.

I have no qualms whatsoever about ratting them out. I know someone has complained about 3 of the phantoms around here, and I have decided to file a formal complaint about the other two ASAP... Kinda a pet peeve thing.

It's one thing for a LPTV broadcaster who is struggling to get on the air and quite another to get CP then falsely claim to be on the air.

You never know where the LIMIT is until you EXCEED it... Dianne B. "Let's try that again... without the oops." (Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum in "Independence Day")
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post #7305 of 7371 Old 01-01-2012, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by OTAhead View Post

I have no qualms whatsoever about ratting them out. I know someone has complained about 3 of the phantoms around here, and I have decided to file a formal complaint about the other two ASAP... Kinda a pet peeve thing.

It's one thing for a LPTV broadcaster who is struggling to get on the air and quite another to get CP then falsely claim to be on the air.

I had decided that the FCC just didn't care; I guess we'll see then.
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post #7306 of 7371 Old 01-23-2012, 09:19 PM
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More VHF increases coming to the northeast.

WNYT-12 in Albany wants to boost from 15 kW to 30 kW.

The big deal, though, is a four-way interference agreement that involves:

WABC-7 New York from 26.9 kW to 34 kW
WXXA-7 Albany from 10 kW to 15 kW
WWNY-7 Watertown from 34 kW to 42 kW
WBNG-7 Binghamton from 20.4 kW to 34 kW

- Trip

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post #7307 of 7371 Old 01-27-2012, 08:42 AM
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AMENDMENT OF SECTION SECTION 73.622(I), POST-TRANSITION TABLE OF DTV ALLOTMENTS, TELEVISION BROADCAST STATIONS (LINCOLN, NEBRASKA). Substituted channel 15 for channel 51 at Lincoln, Nebraska for station KFXL-TV. (Dkt No. 11-192 RM-11646 ). Action by: Chief, Video Division, Media Bureau. Adopted: 01/26/2012 by R&O. (DA No. 12-91).

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...DA-12-91A1.pdf
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post #7308 of 7371 Old 02-17-2012, 08:36 PM
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I've read that congress is preparing to auction of some parts of the broadcast TV spectrum for other uses, such as wireless internet.

Does anyone here know more about this (or is it being discussed in some other topic)? What spectrum exactly? Are some channels going away (parts of UHF, or VHF-Lo, or VHF-Hi), or is this per channel, per market, depending on the local channel assignments? In some parts of the country, there doesn't appear to be that much available spectrum, to the point that getting new broadcast licenses or power increases is difficult.

I like my broadcast HDTV, and I don't want congress doing anything to remove the broadcasts I receive.

I read this here, but there's not enough technical info:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/17/bu...ref=technology
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post #7309 of 7371 Old 02-17-2012, 11:19 PM
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post #7310 of 7371 Old 03-13-2012, 11:46 PM
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WGAL translator channel 49 Harrisburg, PA is now broadcasting. I am receiving it very well at 40 miles to the south.
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post #7311 of 7371 Old 03-15-2012, 05:21 PM
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How will the fill in translators be treated in the auction and repacking? Will they be considered primary under their full service parent's license or will they be considered secondary LDs?
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post #7312 of 7371 Old 03-15-2012, 07:11 PM
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FYI
link to article about class A LPTV titled "More steps toward tv band clearing"

http://www.commlawblog.com/2012/03/a...band-clearing/

The first paragraph follows

The thinning of the ranks of Class A TV stations continues. We reported recently that the FCC has started to propose the downgrading of a number of Class A television stations to LPTV status, presumably to make room for the almighty broadband to take over TV spectrum. The stations targeted in the first round of that effort had (a) failed to file Children’s TV Reports and (b) failed to respond to FCC’s inquiries about the whereabouts of those reports. (The Commission later fined a number of other stations which had also failed to file kidvid reports; they escaped the dreaded downgrading because they had at least responded to the FCC’s inquiries.)

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post #7313 of 7371 Old 03-15-2012, 07:19 PM
 
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Quote:
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FYI
link to article about class A LPTV titled "More steps toward tv band clearing"

http://www.commlawblog.com/2012/03/a...band-clearing/

The first paragraph follows

The thinning of the ranks of Class A TV stations continues. We reported recently that the FCC has started to propose the downgrading of a number of Class A television stations to LPTV status, presumably to make room for the almighty broadband to take over TV spectrum. The stations targeted in the first round of that effort had (a) failed to file Children's TV Reports and (b) failed to respond to FCC's inquiries about the whereabouts of those reports. (The Commission later fined a number of other stations which had also failed to file kidvid reports; they escaped the dreaded downgrading because they had at least responded to the FCC's inquiries.)

Also don't forget that the FCC has a Sept 2015 shutdown date of analog LPs. Many analog PS either can't or won't switch to digital and will be shut down. So easy way to free up spectrum for them without having to cough up cash.
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post #7314 of 7371 Old 03-15-2012, 09:44 PM
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They should have required the end of analog low power tv much sooner than 2015!

Hopefully Canada will require the end of analog full power tv in the "non mandatory markets" and the end of low power analog tv in all markets on the same date, and Mexico will require the end of all analog tv, full or low power, nationwide on the same date. That way tv manufacturers can start leaving analog tuners off of North American models starting with the 2016 model year. This would force Central American NTSC countries to get on board quickly also.

How can we say "the digital transition is complete" when thousands of low power stations are still broadcasting in analog?
LOW POWER ANALOG NEEDS TO DIE NOW!!!
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post #7315 of 7371 Old 03-16-2012, 10:20 AM
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When will public safety have to vacate the T-Band?

http://urgentcomm.com/policy_and_law...owns-20120313/
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post #7316 of 7371 Old 03-16-2012, 12:07 PM
 
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They should have required the end of analog low power tv much sooner than 2015!.

That will be here before you know it. 2009 doesn't seem that long ago.
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post #7317 of 7371 Old 03-16-2012, 04:35 PM
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Also don't forget that the FCC has a Sept 2015 shutdown date of analog LPs. Many analog PS either can't or won't switch to digital and will be shut down. So easy way to free up spectrum for them without having to cough up cash.

If a station is not Class A, the spectrum it uses is already free for theft use. LPTVs are secondary and can be forced to move or shut down altogether at any time without compensation. So, for a majority of LPTV stations, the 2015 deadline isn't holding up anything.

As for Class A stations, they were given primary status in exchange for certain obligations, such as minimum 3 hours locally-produced programming per week and filing reports for children's television. If they're not living up to their obligations, why should they continue to enjoy primary status? I'm with the FCC on this one.
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post #7318 of 7371 Old 03-16-2012, 08:04 PM
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Here's a hypothetical. I'll use the Dallas market only for illustration and this doesn't imply this would ever happen here.

Let's say Ion's KPXD/68 (RF-42) wishes to compensate Daystar's KDTN/2 (RF-43) to trade virtual channel numbers. The rationale might be that a general market station such as KPXD wants the "status" of being identified as channel 2 instead of the arguably less prestigious 68. Daystar would simply rebrand as channel 68 and perhaps pocket the money.

No facilities would change (they're both pretty comparable anyway). Would the FCC allow this under the ATSC rules for channel mapping?

I ask because long, long ago, I worked at GE's Nashville facility. A facility swap happened back in 1973 where our television station (WSIX-TV/8) worked out an arrangement with Metro's NCE WDCN/2 to switch facilities. WSIX-TV/8 became WNGE/2 and WDCN/2 became WDCN/8 (now WNPT).

Frankly, it was a wash since the move to channel 2 didn't really enhance the signal in the heart of the DMA. The idea was that moving from 8 to 2 would put us closer to the other big guys in the market, WSM-TV/4 and WLAC-TV/5. It never worked out to GE's benefit and as far as I know, channel 2 is still mired in third place.

A similar swap happened in New Orleans between the old WVUE/12 and WYES/8. I believe that was a win for WVUE.

Nowadays, the channel number is merely a virtual entity. Thus, it seems that unless prohibited by the commission, a trade of such a entity could be done should a station want to do a makeover.
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post #7319 of 7371 Old 03-16-2012, 08:28 PM
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From what I understand, stations under common control can share or exchange virtual channels. The ATSC rules otherwise bind the virtual channel to the previous analog, but I don't think the FCC is being too rigid about it. On the other hand, KUSI was going to move to 18-1 (they're RF18) when KDTF-LD was going to sign on as 51-1 (RF51) but ultimately did not do so.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

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"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

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post #7320 of 7371 Old 03-16-2012, 10:39 PM
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It would be so much simpler, easier and nicer if everyone would just use their real transmitter channel number...but that ain't going to happen.

A good change would be if a station wanted to use their transmitter channel number instead of their old analog channel number, they could if they wanted to. This requirement of having to use your old analog channel number for your virtual channel on digital is nothing more than something to appease the stations who want to keep their old image, i.e. FOX2, CBS5, ABC7, etc. Some stations would love to use their digital channel ID. A station that is transmitting on channel 8 but using virtual channel 52, for example, probably would love to ID as channel 8. If a station doesn't care if they keep their old analog image and wanted to change to a new digital image, why not let them?

This PSIP ID business is nothing but a pain in the you know what when it comes to trying to explain to users that to get channel 2 you need a UHF antenna. I've always thought that this virtual channel numbering was a crazy idea from the beginning.

And check this out... Here in the San Francisco Bay Area we have virtual 2 on RF 44, Virtual 44 on RF 45; 4 on 38, 38 on 39; Virtual channel 1 (yes one) on 42, 42 on RF 14, Virtual 14 on 51; 54 on RF 50, virtual 50 on 32, 32 on 33. It can really get crazy!

KAXT 1 got that because they and KRCB 23 were both analog 22. Some tuners couldn't handle both of them being 22.

Our NBC station, KNTV, transmits on channel 12, has a virtual channel of 11, but is channel 3 on cable. They never mention their channel number. They're simply "NBC Bay Area".

Larry
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