The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 7371 Old 03-01-2008, 03:14 PM
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At almost 255KB, I believe my web page is now complete!

http://www.rabbitears.info/dtr.php?

Every link has been replaced, all known facilities have been added.

I also added all three licensed Class A digital stations. (Two are in Norfolk, one's in the Gainesville DMA) I'm debating whether or not to try to add some LPTV stations. Thoughts?

- Trip

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post #722 of 7371 Old 03-01-2008, 07:16 PM
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KAZT-CA 27 in Phoenix flash-cut to digital in January due to interference concerns from an adjacent DTV broadcast on 26. They're still running on an STA since I don't think the FCC has granted a license to any Class A stations flash cutting, but they still ought to be in the list since they have completed the conversion.
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post #723 of 7371 Old 03-01-2008, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

KAZT-CA 27 in Phoenix flash-cut to digital in January due to interference concerns from an adjacent DTV broadcast on 26. They're still running on an STA since I don't think the FCC has granted a license to any Class A stations flash cutting, but they still ought to be in the list since they have completed the conversion.

Interestingly, it IS listed on the FCC site, but as an analog station. I wonder if there was a mistake in the paperwork.

- Trip

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post #724 of 7371 Old 03-01-2008, 10:41 PM
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The spreadsheet now has all states updated through 2/24/08, with the exception of CA and CT. PR also remains to be completed. With any luck I will get these done by tomorrow. Then I can get up to speed with any filings done after the 24th.

I want to thank afiggatt again for helping me with many of the Eastern DMA's and states.

While doing the CO entries, it seemed like I took a crash course on the Lookout Mountain Tower project in the Denver DMA. While 4+ stations will be using it (CBS, ABC, NBC and MyN, plus at least 1 other on a lease), FOX and CW will be holding out on their own towers. More info can be found at:

http://www.hdtvcolorado.com/index.htm


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post #725 of 7371 Old 03-02-2008, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Interestingly, it IS listed on the FCC site, but as an analog station. I wonder if there was a mistake in the paperwork.

- Trip

Maybe, they are also mapping to 7.1 and Tivo tells me because they are not using the virtual channel the FCC assigned them they are unable to provide guide data.

edit: looks like they have a STA http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=72618
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post #726 of 7371 Old 03-03-2008, 07:55 AM
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The spreadsheet has been updated to include the Form 387 filings through 2/29/08. So it is essentially done for the moment, though I plan to make updates and corrections as needed. If anyone finds something that needs to be corrected, please send me a PM.

I am keeping the updates on the old post (see my signature below), as it is linked from the first post of this thread as well.

Thank you,


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post #727 of 7371 Old 03-03-2008, 06:56 PM
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This may be slightly off-topic, but worth reading:

Today, the FCC published on its web site some back-and-forth between Commissioner Michael Copps and Chairman Kevin Martin concerning the DT transition.

In his letter, Copps told the chairman that his "strong first preference" would have been "to actually switch a small number of markets to all-digital service before the national transition date" as a field test. But failing that, he suggested more limited field tests in which individual households agree to switch to digital early and provide their insight into the issues consumers will face.

In response, Martin said he would ask the DTV Task Force and "industry stakeholders" to explore some of these testing initiatives.

Both admit that switching an entire market early would be a challenge, though more limited household testing is a possibility.

Also today the FCC released its DTV consumer education order (order) (press release) which will require stepped-up education efforts from broadcasters, multichannel providers (i.e. cable, sat and FIOS), TV manufacturers, 700 MHz auction winners, and telecommunications companies who participate in the Low Income Federal Universal Service Program.

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post #728 of 7371 Old 03-03-2008, 07:24 PM
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Lots of people have "switched to digital early". I'm sure many of us here never watch OTA analog signals anymore. I know I don't.

How can we say "the digital transition is complete" when thousands of low power stations are still broadcasting in analog?
LOW POWER ANALOG NEEDS TO DIE NOW!!!
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post #729 of 7371 Old 03-03-2008, 08:19 PM
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Got a Zenith DTT900 today, and I've already faced a show-stopper issue, it's called a low-VHF digital.

Outside of that, the thing is great and is superior to every other tuner I've tried. Which is to say, nothing since the 5th gen LG chip in a computer-based tuner, so...

- Trip

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post #730 of 7371 Old 03-03-2008, 10:22 PM
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Does anyone have an idea of when we'll start seeing some action taken by the FCC on the Form 387 Plans, i.e, granted, dismissed, etc.?
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post #731 of 7371 Old 03-03-2008, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Got a Zenith DTT900 today, and I've already faced a show-stopper issue, it's called a low-VHF digital.

So, it was of no help with WBRA? Well, I suppose background noise just can't be solved by newer chips like multi-path can.


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post #732 of 7371 Old 03-04-2008, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighmike View Post

Does anyone have an idea of when we'll start seeing some action taken by the FCC on the Form 387 Plans, i.e, granted, dismissed, etc.?

There is nothing to grant or deny with the 387. It is strickly an update on what stations are planning to do. When stations file for post transition CP's (also known as FCC Form 301, FCC Form 302s are for License to Cover after construction is complete), that is when the FCC can approve or deny. Those are due by the 17th of March for stations who want quick turnaround.

Stations who do not have post transition facilities ready by August will again have to file where they are in the process. Any station deviating drastically from the Feb 387 filing must update their filing when it becomes clear of a change and that could be as soon as the FCC adjudicates stations 301s.

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post #733 of 7371 Old 03-04-2008, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Got a Zenith DTT900 today, and I've already faced a show-stopper issue, it's called a low-VHF digital.

WBRA-DT has something going on. I know several people here who have lost WBRA-DT in the last few weeks so it more than likely isn't you.

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post #734 of 7371 Old 03-04-2008, 06:36 AM
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Well, I mean, it helped to the extent that it decodes more than it does on any other tuner I have. My WinTV-D shows only a black screen at the same time the older Zenith shows an extremely pixelated garbled mess, at the same time that the DTT900 is showing the picture with pixelization but well enough to tell what's going on (auto-mute keeps the garbled sound from coming through though).

Basically, without any atmospheric enhancement, my WinTV-D sits at 14dB when it needs 15.5dB to start decoding and 17.5dB to be stable (on UHF it's 16.3, but WBRA keeps breaking up at that number). The Zenith HDV420 sits right on the 33% mark with no enhancement, which means it's right on the brink of decoding, but as with the WinTV-D, it requires more signal than the UHFs to decode cleanly. The DTT900 is showing a picture, my dad was able to look at 15-1 last night and say "Oh my God it's Motorweek!" It was clean enough for him to tell, but still breaking up too much to watch.

I've never had much luck with WBRA-DT and this tuner has actually given me the best results so far. That's why I'm so impressed with it.

It also turns out that WSET seems to not be transmitting any guide data.

- Trip

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post #735 of 7371 Old 03-04-2008, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

In their 387 filing, they've told the FCC that they'll be using a 5.6GHz unlicensed link to a new transmitter site. Is this common practice for stations to do this?

It's not common, but it works fine. WNYA in Pittsfield, MA has been doing it since they went on the air in 2003. Their STL is two hops.
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post #736 of 7371 Old 03-04-2008, 08:44 PM
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I have been reviewing the latest version of the DTV analysis spreadsheet posted by Falcon_77 now that we have filled a summary of the transition plans for almost all stations. A lot to analyze. One thing that I found interesting, if I have counted them correctly, is that there are now 35 full power stations which are digital only. More than I expected. Also, quite a lot of stations who want corrections to the Appendix B allotments or want to stay with the DTV ERP, height, antenna they have rather than match Appendix B while some who want to increase their power & coverage under the 5 mile rule. It will be interesting to see how that works out given the short time frame left.

Meanwhile we have a FCC commissioner who wants to do "limited field testing" for some households to get digital tuners early. I could see some trials with some analog only households who are not up on the technology might be useful in clarifying how to help people with the conversion process. But how about we email the FCC the links to the avsforum Local Reception and Reception Hardware forums. A lot of us here have been "testing" digital OTA reception for years. The commisioner does know that stations have been broadcasting digitally for up to 10 years, right?
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post #737 of 7371 Old 03-05-2008, 01:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

... we have a FCC commissioner who wants to do "limited field testing" for some households to get digital tuners early. I could see some trials with some analog only households who are not up on the technology might be useful in clarifying how to help people with the conversion process. But how about we email the FCC the links to the avsforum Local Reception and Reception Hardware forums. A lot of us here have been "testing" digital OTA reception for years. The commisioner does know that stations have been broadcasting digitally for up to 10 years, right?

I, too, was surprised to read that information about them wanting to do testing. What do they need to do testing for? The AVS HDTV area has just about every possible situation covered already... many times over for most of them. I think the FCC really ought to be introduced to those two sections you mentioned. I think the commissioners know that people have been watching digital TV for almost 10 years now... they probably just don't know that we all talk about it so much!

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post #738 of 7371 Old 03-05-2008, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

The commisioner does know that stations have been broadcasting digitally for up to 10 years, right?

Doesn't matter what the facts on the ground are. It is all purely political at this point in time. Everyone in DC is running for cover in case this blows up instead of working to make it come out right. They all play politics (rumor has it Martin, who is from North Carolina is angling to run for NC governor when he leaves the FCC). Copps (a Dem) is the worst one for playing politics and is behind this idea. Even though I am behind this idea, it is about 5 years too late and can't work now. Not enough time to pull it off.

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post #739 of 7371 Old 03-05-2008, 06:24 AM
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I know ONE candidate I won't be voting for, then....

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...

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post #740 of 7371 Old 03-05-2008, 07:03 PM
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Well, I think I've found myself a new project to work on. Though this isn't the place to post it (Private Messages would be nice though), I've begun work on a new page here:

http://www.rabbitears.info/subchannels.php

If you check the source code, you'll see I'm crediting people in comments there, since I'm just trying to throw something together. I figure that even if I can't do anything with my main site, I can still have some informative things for people to look at.

If you find any errors in things I've already done, or have additional data for me to add, please send me a Private Message and I will incorporate it as fast as I'm able.

Thanks all!

- Trip

P.S. My parents bought another DTT900 today.

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post #741 of 7371 Old 03-05-2008, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

http://www.rabbitears.info/subchannels.php

If you find any errors in things I've already done, or have additional data for me to add, please send me a Private Message and I will incorporate it as fast as I'm able.

I e-mailed you a list of Nashville, TN and Bowling Green, KY subchannels.

NashDigie signing off.

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post #742 of 7371 Old 03-06-2008, 08:05 AM
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http://broadcastengineering.com/RF/m..._request_0306/

As others have noted, why don't they visit this site to see some real world results? I also don't know what trials can possibly be arranged for at this point. Would some areas have to end analog before 2/17/09 or are they positioning to push back the transition?

Edit: This is the same as the above noted response isn't it? Nothing new then.


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post #743 of 7371 Old 03-06-2008, 09:21 AM
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First thing the FCC has to do if they want to "limited" field testing is to find a market ready to go and switch them. You guys keeping up with the status, any market like that?

But NOOOO. The FCC wants to go to HOMES that volunteer and see what happens in markets still operating in analog and digital. Now THAT is a waste. We already KNOW what that is. Until you get a full market to switch off analog, you CAN'T do the kind of testing Copps wants and the public backlash will be UNBELIEVEABLE if they do something like that this close to the deadline WITHOUT giving the public plenty of notice to get ready. The UK, IMIHO, has done their transition better than we have.

Just more politics if this thing goes down the tubes. Who really cares about the viewing public?

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post #744 of 7371 Old 03-06-2008, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

First thing the FCC has to do if they want to "limited" field testing is to find a market ready to go and switch them. You guys keeping up with the status, any market like that?

But NOOOO. The FCC wants to go to HOMES that volunteer and see what happens in markets still operating in analog and digital. Now THAT is a waste. We already KNOW what that is. Until you get a full market to switch off analog, you CAN'T do the kind of testing Copps wants and the public backlash will be UNBELIEVEABLE if they do something like that this close to the deadline WITHOUT giving the public plenty of notice to get ready. The UK, IMIHO, has done their transition better than we have.

Just more politics if this thing goes down the tubes. Who really cares about the viewing public?

Reading the article, the only way I can interpret it is that Copps believes that there isn't one single digital television receiver out there. It truly reads like he thinks that 100% of television stations are going to do what we call a "flash-cut" on Feb. 17, 2009 and that until then, there will be no digital TV transmission or reception going on anywhere in the US.

Here are some example quotes that read like this:

This one implies that he believes no household has installed a digital television receiver yet:
Quote:


Copps said at a minimum limited DTV field testing should be conducted with individual, volunteer households that switch early to digital reception in an effort to “provide critical insights into many of the issues that consumers will face.

Same with this quote:
Quote:


In his letter, Copps expressed concern about several issues, including DTV reception, the need for some viewers to replace antennas, cable and satellite passthrough of DTV signals, installation of home DTV equipment, how DTV closed-captioning and V-chip functionality performs, and consumer reaction to digital television.

This one almost implies that he believes there is currently no digital transmission, and no testing of digital signal propagation has been conducted:
Quote:


Copps advised that the best way to resolve the matter would be through field trials “in markets with various topographies, at various distances, and with various home antenna options.”

Do some of us need to write a letter to clue the man in? The "tests" he wants to perform have all been done! At least they have informally! The "tests" could largely consist of asking people who've already "gone digital"
to fill out a survey about their experience. Ask us questions about how difficult it was to set up the antenna to get a reliable signal, etc.

Now, you all must excuse me as I go off to let my mind boggle at the FCC chairman's ignorance of the actual state of digital television.


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post #745 of 7371 Old 03-06-2008, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by TiVoFishMan View Post

Reading the article, the only way I can interpret it is that Copps believes that there isn't one single digital television receiver out there. It truly reads like he thinks that 100% of television stations are going to do what we call a "flash-cut" on Feb. 17, 2009 and that until then, there will be no digital TV transmission or reception going on anywhere in the US.

I agree. One of the main problems I see with the "transition" is that it is rarely mentioned that DTV is already widely available. Quite a few improvements will be made over the summer and other changes will be made, but we essentially already have the system in place.

Does Commissioner Copps believe that the US is like Whitehaven in the UK, which only had analog signals one day and only digital signals the next?* Note that most areas of the UK have both analog and digital TV, albeit at reduced power.

Let me see if there are any realistic candidates in the DMA list for an early end to analog operations as a "trial." They would need to have low population and a low rate of OTA use.

Edit: *Actually, if memory serves me correctly, they turned off 1 analog channel 30 days early to put 1 digital Mux on it and then did the rest in November '07. So they had a 30 day "window" so to speak.


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post #746 of 7371 Old 03-06-2008, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

Let me see if there are any realistic candidates in the DMA list for an early end to analog operations as a "trial." They would need to have low population and a low rate of OTA use.

I don't think the low population area approach will work very well. Many of the stations in such DMA's simply aren't ready, or there are just too few stations available.

It would probably need to be a larger DMA, one that is currently fully transitioned or at least operating on the post-transition channels, with a mixture of VHF and UHF stations. According to the Form 387 filings, these are:

Columbus, OH (DMA #33 - 12% OTA - 1.7M people in metro area)
Lexington, KY (DMA #64 - 8% OTA - 429k metro)
Madison, WI (DMA #85 - 18% OTA - 543k metro)

Columbus is 12% OTA and the metro population exceeds 1.5M people, so I don't think it's doable.

The presence of a Low VHF station for Lexington (WDKY) would add more perspective, but the fact that the DMA is currently all UHF for analog could make it a real snake pit.

For Madison, WISC is not on its final facility, but appears to be operating on its post-transition channel of 50 at sufficient strength to be a useful test. However, at 18% OTA, it would be tough.

Pick your choice, Commissioner Copps.


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post #747 of 7371 Old 03-06-2008, 07:37 PM
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I agree. One of the main problems I see with the "transition" is that it is rarely mentioned that DTV is already widely available. Quite a few improvements will be made over the summer and other changes will be made, but we essentially already have the system in place.

+1. This is one thing that often bugs me about mainstream press news articles on the digital transition. They frequently fail to mention that stations are already broadcasting with digital channels. They leave the impression that there will be this magic conversion to digital broadcasting on February 17, 2009. The FCC commissioners know better - one would hope. They could help with the transition process by emphasizing in interviews and public hearings that most full power stations are broadcasting a full power digital signal.

The idea of a early conversion of a test market is not a bad one. But it is way late in the game to be bringing this up now. If they wanted to be prepared for a smoother transition, Congress should have given the FCC and the broadcast stations more time and called for phased process. The FCC commissioners are focused entirely on political CYA against angry consumers at this point. I read Chairman Martin's agreement to look into field trials as a political cover for an effort that won't really go anywhere.

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Let me see if there are any realistic candidates in the DMA list for an early end to analog operations as a "trial." They would need to have low population and a low rate of OTA use.

For an early shutdown, you need a market out of the top 30 DMAs where most of the stations are already at their final DTV channel & coverage. There could be 1 or 2 stations that have to do a flash cut, but only stations that only have to modify their transmitters for digital broadcast. No antenna replacement or mods or tower work. Those stations could probably speed up the flash cut if they had to.

But there are political considerations as well. The trial DMA can not be in the district of a powerful Congressman or the state of a Senator who sits on the key committees who might oppose the FCC taking away analog TV early from his or her constituents.

Richmond, VA is a possibility (if you ignore the political considerations).
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post #748 of 7371 Old 03-07-2008, 07:47 AM
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I don't know if anyone has been following up on the 387 filings, but a number of stations have submitted form 301s for changes to the post-transition DTV allotments set in the Appendix document. If I read it correctly, a number of filings have already been granted, which means the FCC is processing these quickly. If you want to look them up, select Service: Digital TV, Form Number: 301, and enter a start date of 02/10/2008 or so at http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/p...d/app_sear.htm. The start date of Feb 10 gets me 100 applications as of today.

Two stations of interest to me in the Baltimore-Washington markets.

WMAR 2 wants to increase their appendix B power on UHF 38 to 1000 kW for increased coverage. Interesting map in their attachment that shows that even with a 1000 kW UHF 38 signal, that the projected coverage of the digital signal is less than their current analog VHF 2 signal. I suspect people can make that up with good long range UHF antennas such as the CM 4228 or AD 91-XG, but we shall see how that goes. See http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/f...ibit_id=620736.

WUSA 9 in DC wants to DECREASE their appendix B ERP on VHF 9 from 17 to 9.55 kW & HAAT and go for a smaller coverage area. This is not going to go over well with the football fans out in the fringes who rely on WUSA-DT's signal for their CBS football in HD. See http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/f...ibit_id=623397. I should be ok, but can someone who lives in the outer band of the coverage area that now falls outside the official coverage B zone write a protest to the FCC? Or does the FCC figure that it's WUSA's decision so long as it does not create interference issues with other stations?
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post #749 of 7371 Old 03-07-2008, 09:27 AM
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I think WUSA just doesn't want to run that goofy directional pattern the FCC gave them. I think that after the transition, the FCC will start allowing stations to boost power more. We'll see what happens.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.


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post #750 of 7371 Old 03-07-2008, 12:45 PM
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The folks at the FCC have been nearly as busy as Trip and Falcon_77. Today they released the MO&O (135 scintillating pages) and the final DTV Table of Allotments.
From my read, they are taking quick action on many of the requests filed in conjunction with the 387s.
Happy reading!

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