The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 7371 Old 06-06-2008, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N5XZS View Post

Now back to TV DXing fun!!

You've got that right!!!!! Last Thursday, this past Wednesday, and yesterday (Thursday), I had some great DXing, but I can never get a digital station. It might be because I have an ABC, NBC, and CBS analog channels on 2, 4, and 5. And the thing is, is that my CBS affiliate (ch. 5) will be going back to 5 as their post-transitional digital channel. Back in May, they got the transmitter and tested it out a few late nights. I just happened to be up and caught it. With my big RS vhf/uhf outdoor antenna, it came in on my tv's meter at 100%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

KNOP/2: 16kW vs. 6.75kW
KHAS/5: 45kW vs. 6.78kW
WUOA/6: 26kW vs. 1.5kW (also at 305m vs. 158m at a new location)

I might have a problem with KHAS during the summer time starting next year. I hope I don't have any trouble with my CBS affiliate being on digital channel 5 anyway.

NashDigie signing off.

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post #992 of 7371 Old 06-07-2008, 07:37 AM
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Is there a channel change petition form among those listed on the CDBS search. If not, would I have to wait until a 301 application is filed to know if there are any channel change requests?
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post #993 of 7371 Old 06-07-2008, 07:55 AM
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I'll have to look around for that this weekend. I know there's a place to look for channel change requests but I don't know where it is.

When I find it, I'll let you know.

- Trip

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post #994 of 7371 Old 06-07-2008, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w9wi View Post

KCWX can't change their COL, they're the only TV station licensed to Fredericksburg. The FCC won't let you delete a town's only channel.

(unless they can get some S.A. station to relicense itself to Fredericksburg?)

There have been rare exceptions -- KXII-TV, channel 12, Sherman, TX used to be licensed to Ardmore, OK. The FCC did allow KXII-TV to change its COL in the nineties despite the fact that the change left Ardmore with no licensed full power TV station. Note that Sherman did not have a licensed TV station prior to the change, and Sherman has roughly double the population of Ardmore.

Apparently, it was a lengthy process to get the FCC to approve this change -- and something that was allowed only under very unusual circumstances. Perhaps it is the exception that proves the rule.
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post #995 of 7371 Old 06-07-2008, 01:32 PM
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WRIC-8 in Richmond used to be Petersburg's sole licensed station. Now Petersburg has no TV stations also...

- Trip

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post #996 of 7371 Old 06-07-2008, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

WRIC-8 in Richmond used to be Petersburg's sole licensed station. Now Petersburg has no TV stations also...

What is the significance of a City of License anyway? Most full power stations cover dozens of cities. It seems silly to be tied to that, especially in cases like Mt. Wilson when all but 1 local station broadcasts there, despite several different Cities of License.

99% of cities probably don't have "their own" TV station. Orange County, with 3 million people only has 3, none of which actually broadcast from sites within the county.
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post #997 of 7371 Old 06-07-2008, 06:58 PM
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In response to afiggatt's concerns (see the link below for his excellent observations on the matter):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post14035147

I have checked the number of "big 4" and PBS stations which will be moving to UHF for DTV operations (as respects current analog viewers). Most of us here (using DTV already) have been receiving mostly UHF channels for quite some time now, but those still using VHF rabbit ears or VHF only antennas could be in for quite an unpleasant surprise next year.

The following is a count, by network, of stations "moving" from VHF analog to UHF DTV.

CBS: 82
NBC: 75
ABC: 57
FOX: 20
PBS: 40

FOX, being a newer network, won't have quite as many issues with this, but CBS and NBC would do well to warn their analog viewers of this change.
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post #998 of 7371 Old 06-07-2008, 08:59 PM
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A cut at listing the cities where the big four network analog stations are all VHF, but some/all digital channels are UHF.

I went through Falcon_77's spreadsheet to try to find which DMAs have the big four network stations - ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC - all on VHF, but some or all have or will have UHF digital channels. The list would be considerably longer if I limited to DMAs were just the old line big three - ABC, CBS, NBC - are on VHF. Fox has many UHF stations because it is the newer network. If anyone finds an error or missing city or don't understand the table, let me know.

The issue in these cities, mainly those in the top 20 DMAs, is that some OTA viewers may get crappy or no UHF reception, but don't care because they can get the big four good enough on VHF. Or the traditional big 3 and PBS on VHF.

Notes:
1. Cities with big four (ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC) analog all on VHF, but some/all DT on UHF
2. Main PBS station also noted if on VHF with (P).
3. Also focused only on primary stations in city, not satellite stations for large DMAs
4. Does not include #44 Las Vegas where the big four are on VHF for both analog & digital!

Code:
DMA                Analog Ch         Pre-Trans DT      Post-Trans DT
#1 NYC             2,4,5,7,13(P)     56,28,44,45,61    33,28,44,7,13
#2 LA              2,4,7,11          44,36,53,65       44,36,7,11
#5 Dallas          4,5,8,11,13(P)    35,41,9,19,14     35,41,8,11,14
#6 San Francisco   2,5,7,9(P),11     56,29,24,30,12    44,29,7,30,12
#9 Washington, DC  4,5,7,9           48,36,34,39       48,36,7,9
#14 Seattle        4,5,7,9(P),13     38,48,39,41,18    38,48,39,9,13
#15 Minneapolis    2(P),4,5,9,11     34,32,50,26,31    34,32,35,9,11
#16 Miami          2(P),4,6,7,10     18,22,31,8,9      18,22,31,7,10
#23 Portland       2,6,8,10(P),12    43,40,46,27,30    43,40,8,10,12
#35 Salt Lake City 2,4,5,7(P),13     34,40,38,42,28    34,40,38,42,13
#44 Albuquerque    2,4,5(P),7,13     27,26,35,21,16    27,26,35,7,13
#65 Charleston, WV 3,8,11,13         23,41,19,47       23,41,19,13
#68 Tucson         4,6(P),9,11,13    23,30,35,25,32    23,30,9,25,32
#73 Honolulu       2,4,9,11(P),13    8,40,22,18,35,    8,40,9,11,35
#73 Honolulu- Hilo 2,9,11,13         22,8,21,18        22,9,11,13
#110 Reno, NV      2,4,5(P),8,11     13,7,15,8,44      13,7,15,8,44
#113 Boise, ID     2,4(P),6,7,12     28,21,24,26,13    28,21,24,7,13
#150 Anchorage     2,4,7(P),11,13    10,20,8,28,12     10,20,8,28,12
#170 Billings, MT  2,4,6,8           10,22,18,11       10,22,18,11
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post #999 of 7371 Old 06-07-2008, 09:29 PM
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Thanks, afiggatt.

I'm not as concerned about the LA DMA, since all our PBS stations are UHF and they are popular stations. At least as respects outdoor antennas locally, most are VHF/UHF combos. (in areas that have them in any numbers)

As for New York, the DMA tends to rely on OTA less, but I found this article from the New York Times, which notes the VHF vs. UHF issue:

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ent-buildings/

Quote:


...the issue is that most of the new digital channels will be broadcast in the UHF range — Channels 14 and over. But since the basic TV channels have traditionally been in the VHF range –- Channels 2 through 13 — many buildings have only VHF antennas on the roofs. Not UHF, the ones they’re going to need. And since the vast majority of tenants of these buildings don’t use the antennas anyway — they probably have cable or satellite — building managers may not be paying a lot of attention to which antennas they have and which they don’t.

We need more of this type of coverage. A possible government knee jerk reaction to force UHF stations back onto VHF (especially) low-VHF would be a mistake for DTV.
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post #1000 of 7371 Old 06-08-2008, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

WRIC-8 in Richmond used to be Petersburg's sole licensed station. Now Petersburg has no TV stations also...

- Trip

WRIC-8 is still licensed to Petersburg.

Doug Smith W9WI
Pleasant View, TN EM66
http://www.w9wi.com
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post #1001 of 7371 Old 06-08-2008, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w9wi View Post

WRIC-8 is still licensed to Petersburg.

Interesting. Upon checking into it, you're right, even though I remember reading several times that they got it changed to Richmond around 1990...

- Trip

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post #1002 of 7371 Old 06-08-2008, 10:21 PM
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Some markets have the opposite problem. Bakersfield was made an all UHF market in the early 60's. There were no VHF channels until a low power Telemundo station went on channel 11 sometime in the 90's. Then came LP Telefutura on channel 4 and LP 3ABN on channel 8. 2 Spanish LPs and one religious LP, might as well be 0 VHF for over half of OTA viewers. Consequently, most OTA viewers here have UHF only antennas. Then in 2002 ABC affiliate KERO 23's digital signal went on the air on channel 10. It is staying on 10 post transition. The other full power stations, both analog and digital, are UHF. The Bakersfield local thread has lots of posts where someone says they have difficulty receiving KERO-DT. Many people are unaware that the signal is actually on VHF, since this is hidden by it being virtual channel 23-1. Fresno is in a similar situation. An all UHF market since the 60's. Then a few minor LPs on VHF. Then 3 full power VHF digital channels, one of them on VHF-LO (a Spanish station on channel 5), KAIL MYTV on channel 7, and KFSN ABC O&O on channel 9. Next year KFSN is moving to channel 30 (their current analog channel). KAIL is staying on 7 (current analog is out of core channel 53) and the Spanish station is moving to channel 11 (current analog is some out of core channel). The Fresno DMA is very spread out, including important cities such as Visalia, Tulare, Porterville, Hanford, Madera, and Merced, some up to 50+ miles from Fresno. All those OTA users optimized for UHF and unprepared for VHF.

How can we say "the digital transition is complete" when thousands of low power stations are still broadcasting in analog?
LOW POWER ANALOG NEEDS TO DIE NOW!!!
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post #1003 of 7371 Old 06-09-2008, 12:37 AM
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Interesting stuff.

As I've probably said before, the market I grew up in (Des Moines-Ames) had the big 3 and PBS on VHF. When an independent (now Fox) station came into being on channel 17 in the early 80s, they went as far as to sell cheap loop antennas in convenience stores, complete with "The Great Entertainer 17" logo. And since most TVs had knobs back then (when "Don't touch that dial!" actually meant something), the loop antennas came with instructions specifying that you had to turn the big knob to "U" and the other knob -- which most Central Iowans had never had to use until then -- to 17.

Those were the days ...

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post #1004 of 7371 Old 06-09-2008, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

Code:
DMA                Analog Ch         Pre-Trans DT      Post-Trans DT
#14 Seattle        4,5,7,9(P),13     38,48.39,41,12    38,48,39,9,12

There's a typo here -- KCPQ, channel 13 is currently on pre-transition DT channel 18, and will be returning to channel 13 after the transition.
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post #1005 of 7371 Old 06-16-2008, 08:34 PM
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I cannot seem to open Falcon's spreadsheet. I went to FCC, searched, got nothing, cannot find it. Anyone be willing to link me to a sheet which has an XLS extension? I can see there are changes, cannot seem to get the full story. I feel like I'm in a maze here.
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post #1006 of 7371 Old 06-17-2008, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrow2 View Post

I cannot seem to open Falcon's spreadsheet. I went to FCC, searched, got nothing, cannot find it. Anyone be willing to link me to a sheet which has an XLS extension? I can see there are changes, cannot seem to get the full story. I feel like I'm in a maze here.

Do you have a .zip utility? Follow the link in my signature to the .zip download. The file would be too large to upload to the board otherwise.

An older version of the spreadsheet can be found on Larry Kenney's website as well:

http://www.larrykenney.com/dtvlist.html

If you are still having problems, send me your e-mail in a PM and I can send you the spreadsheet itself.
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post #1007 of 7371 Old 06-17-2008, 12:15 PM
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I just updated the spreadsheet file "DTV-Channels.xls" to the June 9th version at http://www.larrykenney.com/dtvlist.html

Larry
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My complete SF Bay Area DTV Station Lists: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html
Lots of Broadcasting links and information: http://www.choisser.com/broadcast.html

Check out photos and info on my antennas: http://www. larrykenney.com/tvantennas.html

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post #1008 of 7371 Old 06-19-2008, 11:23 AM
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OK thanks to you both. I changed the extension of the file I downloaded from Falcon to .zip and extracted it. No idea why the extension would change in a download, have not seen this before, seems to me. The info is definitely useful and crucial to anyone needing to get set up for their area.

I was looking around to see if there was an assortment of channel specific antennas but have not really found any yet. In my case, something for 7-9 and I might consider using one of the FM antennas for that to augment a CM4228 which works well on all the others in the 7-51 range.

Will check Larry's sheet too.
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post #1009 of 7371 Old 06-19-2008, 10:15 PM
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TONS of filings yesterday, including WBRA-DT, filing for 2015' 9.8 kW ND. Dropping the DA pattern and boosting power more than quadruples the power I receive in my direction.

I'll upload the DTR in the morning, assuming my site is operational. It's all done and updated, but my host is down and has been for much of the day.

- Trip

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post #1010 of 7371 Old 06-20-2008, 04:36 AM
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My site finally came up an hour ago. Wow. So I posted the new DTR and am now running the site updates. The site will hopefully be fully up to date by 9 EDT, assuming it doesn't go down again. ><<br />
- Trip

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post #1011 of 7371 Old 06-20-2008, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

TONS of filings yesterday, including WBRA-DT, filing for 2015' 9.8 kW ND. Dropping the DA pattern and boosting power more than quadruples the power I receive in my direction.

Yes, just using DT stations as the filter, there were 131 applications posted on June 20 and 58 posted on June 19. There are presumably a few filings not related to maximizing the power in there, but still a lot of stations looking to increase their power. Presumably more will be posted on Sunday night after midnight ET.

What I was surprised by, for my immediate area, is that the 2 stations that have filed any noticeable change so far are public stations. WHUT-DT PBS 32, run by Howard University in Washington DC, which did not start up a digital broadcast until last fall, wants to increase from 100 kW on UHF 33 to 1000 kW. Their analog signal is 5000 kW, but 1000 kW digital will expand the nominal coverage area. In their filing, they state that WPXW-DT Ion 66 which will be occupying a co-located adjacent UHF 34 channel next February will also be filing for 1000 kW (WPXW-DT's filing has not been posted yet). WHUT must have more money for operating expenses than I would have thought. WHUT-DT has only a single SD sub-channel so far. The other public station that filed is WNVC-DT 56 in Fairfax, VA which filed to operate at a more modest 160 kW up from 45 kW.
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post #1012 of 7371 Old 06-20-2008, 02:47 PM
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On the DTV transition news front, the Senate passed a bill to increase funding for the DTV transition front. See Broadcasting & Cable article at http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6571824.html. But this is a Senate bill, has the House voted for this? Anyway, by the time the NTIA or the FCC set things up to spend the money, it will be next March.

The part that makes me shake my head:
"The Senate Commerce Committee in April agreed last week to allow the government to give out $65 million to help low-power TV stations and translators make the switch to digital on Feb. 17, 2009, as full-power stations will do.

The way the bill had been originally written, low-power stations would not get the money until October 2010. The National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) requested the change to alleviate concerns raised by the fact that its DTV-to-analog converter boxes are not permitted to have analog tuners in them and are not required to pass through analog signals. That would make the low-power stations virtually un-viewable."

Ok, I think that if the government was going to spend funds to help out LP stations with the transition that it was pretty stupid to pick October 2010 as the date; the funds should have been set up to be made available starting in 2008. Although $65 million is not going to go very far with thousands of LPs and TXs out there, but that is another issue. But is the concept of a co-axial cable splitter that hard to grasp?
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post #1013 of 7371 Old 06-20-2008, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

WHUT must have more money for operating expenses than I would have thought. WHUT-DT has only a single SD sub-channel so far.

Well, they're not just boosting power on the 33 transmitter, they're also silencing a 5000 kW analog transmitter. More coverage = more income, too, so that is likely a factor as well.

- Trip

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post #1014 of 7371 Old 06-22-2008, 09:36 PM
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It looks like there are a lot of last minute maximization filings. At the time of this writing there were 277 filed with a 6/23/08 status date.

This is going to take some time to go through, but I'm seeing some wishful thinking on some stations.
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post #1015 of 7371 Old 06-22-2008, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

It looks like there are a lot of last minute maximization filings. At the time of this writing there were 277 filed with a 6/23/08 status date.

You are not kiding, there must been a huge number of maximization filings on Thursday and Friday. My last search now shows 366 filings posted on 6/23/08. Based on the stations I've looked at, a lot of stations going for 1000 kW on UHF. If I am counting correctly, there are 4 stations in Washington DC all looking to go to 1000 kW and none of them are big four stations - WDCA-DT My 20, WHUT-DT PBS 32, WPXW-DT Ion 66, and WDCW-DT CW 50. WTTG-DT Fox 5 is already at 1000 kW on UHF 36.

A good question is how many of these maximization filings will be granted by the FCC? Just how close to the 0.5% population interference will the FCC be inclined to really accept?
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post #1016 of 7371 Old 06-22-2008, 11:43 PM
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WBNS-DT wants 1700 kW ND. Good luck with that.

- Trip

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post #1017 of 7371 Old 06-23-2008, 09:54 AM
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It's reminded me of few leftovers grandfathered super powered FM stations running high as 500 KW ERP!

If WBNS-DT did succeeded, by asking the FCC to approves this idea of by going to 1.7 MW ERP, this will be unheard in this history of super power digital TV station.

I would not be suprised if few other digital TV stations try this methods.

6-23-08

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post #1018 of 7371 Old 06-23-2008, 12:53 PM
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It's a typo. The max ERP on UHF is 1,000 kW. Period.

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post #1019 of 7371 Old 06-23-2008, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

It's a typo. The max ERP on UHF is 1,000 kW. Period.

WBNS-DT CBS 10 is already at 1000 kW on UHF 21. If it is a typo, it is repeated multiple times in the filing and the attachments. http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....&fac_num=71217.

From the attached coverage map, I get the impression the motive to ask for 1700 kW so WBNS-DT can get closer to matching WSYX-DT which is authorized for 59 kW on VHF 13. http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/f...ibit_id=650778. So the consensus is that this does not have any chance of being granted? Someone decided to file it to see if they could get lucky? Or make a point?
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post #1020 of 7371 Old 06-23-2008, 01:13 PM
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It's definitely not a typo, based on how many times they use it in the filing. WBNS actually does want 1700 kW.

I expect the FCC to completely reject it, but it'll be interesting to see.

- Trip

N4MJC

Comments are my own and not that of the FCC (my employer) or anyone else.

RabbitEars

"Ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand..." - Rush "Witch Hunt"

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