The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 7371 Old 07-30-2008, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Hawk View Post

Vizio tvs will not allow direct entry of RF digital channel numbers. It is scan or no receive. There is also no add-on scan function. I have read that RCA converter boxes work the same way.

Damn, that is really not consumer friendly.

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post #1172 of 7371 Old 07-30-2008, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

What I'm about to describe is based upon the Digital Stream 9900 cheapy converter. ...

Here comes the cute part. If a station gave up analog 38 and is now on 22 and then a new station comes along and is assigned RF 38, the viewer would never be able to manually tune 38 to get the new channel, because the VCT/TSID data has said that 38 is now equal to RF 22 and goes there.

Ironically, your DTX9900 is one of the few tuners that can get around that.  Enter .38 (note the leading period) and it will tune to RF38's main channel rather than to virtual 38.1.
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post #1173 of 7371 Old 07-31-2008, 01:07 AM
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The biggest problem with PSIP - TSID is the way receivers function. As pointed out above, some receivers clear the table when you scan, some allow you to add channels to the list when you scan, some let you enter the RF channel so you can manually add stations, some don't allow you to enter the RF channel at all and you can only scan to get stations, some receivers don't use the PSIP information at all, and so on.... it really varies a lot, so the results can be very different from receiver to receiver.

I have six different receivers... two Sony XBRs, Dish 622, Hi-Pix, Win-TV 950, and a Infinity digital to analog converter... and they all work differently. Even the two Sonys aren't alike. Using the same antenna I get stations on some of the receivers that I don't get on others due to PSIP interpretation. Then there's the sensitivity issue and multipath rejection, too, so my station lists vary from receiver to receiver.

I find it interesting that with the Hi-Pix receiver I can designate any channel I want as the Virtual Channel and it doesn't care. They have a table where you select each channel and manually assign the Virtual Channel you want. For example, if it's RF 24, I can call it 3, 7, 24, or any channel number that's not already used. It doesn't care, as it uses the RF channel info only. To really test this I made the ABC station 2, CBS as 3, CW as 4, FOX as 5, NBC as 6, etc. If I tuned to 2 I got ABC. If I tuned to 3 I got CBS, and so on.

Most of us have figured out how to get around the problems and the various weird circumstances, but I feel sorry for the newcomers, Dick, Jane and the kids, who have no idea what's going on. Probably most just settle on whatever they get with the initial scan and never go any further, so they end up missing a lot of channels available to them.

Earlier today someone here in the SF Bay Area posted an interesting situation having to do with tuning and digital reception. Let me copy and paste it here for you:

- - -

While I was getting my vehicle smog checked in Mountain View, I
waited and for the lack of anything better to do, I watched some TV
(ugh, afternoon TV). The TV was a LCD HDTV but didn't really think
about HDTV since such TVs are rarely showing HD content.

As 1pm rolled around, I tried to find something decent to watch, so I
tuned to channel 9 (analog) and got a snowy picture. Obviously using
a UHF antenna as 9 was barely viewable. I noticed '-' on the remote,
so I did 9-1 and it came in perfectly in HD.

The other person in the office went, "Wow! How did you do that? We
only have an antenna. We can get HD over it?". I replied, "Looks
that way."

Among the other channels I checked where 2-1, 7-1, 11-1 which all
came in fine.

- - -

I think this might be representative of more than a few people out there with new digital receivers. They don't even know they can get HD OTA. Apparently someone had already done a scan on the TV in the waiting room, but the people working there didn't know they could receive HD.

There is going to be a lot of educating to do in the months ahead so that average Joe will be able to watch his local channels OTA. First they have to figure out what their receiver is doing!

Larry
SF

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post #1174 of 7371 Old 07-31-2008, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

I hope you understand what I am trying to say. I'm not the only one that believes that your branded channel should be your actual RF channel. In the old analog world, if you changed analog channels, you had to spend the money to rebrand at the new channel. That whole concept is being thrown out the window and many average OTA TV viewers will not know that.

You are arguing with the wrong people here. You need to go to the FCC. But the point is, this has been debated at the FCC for 6 years by lawmakers, broadcasters, engineers and the ATSC and this is what it is and it isn't going to be changing. To continue this debate here it is pointless. We can't do anything about it.

The system, as designed, works. No where that I have seen does the ATSC say you CAN'T manually tune a station. If a receiver doesn't allow for a manual channel change, that isn't the ATSC standards fault, but the fault of the manufacturer to allow this. And yes, there are receivers that will allow both a manual tune and a rescan without loosing what is already scanned in. I personally own one that does BOTH. Problem is, they are NOT the majority of receivers out in the field at this time.

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post #1175 of 7371 Old 07-31-2008, 04:51 AM
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Well, that was fun. Tried to submit comments to the FCC regarding WBRA-DT's request to move to channel 26 this morning.

"This proceeding is not open to comments from the ECFS." So I have to mail my comments in.

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post #1176 of 7371 Old 07-31-2008, 08:09 PM
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Regarding digital tuners that both allow you to tune to a channel directly and do a rescan by only adding new "finds", my Best Buy Insignia does that.

Regarding the FCC, I've run into this situation also - mail only. Isn't it amazing that the agency that controls electronic media doesn't accept electronic documents on a 100% basis? I sent a reply I received from the FCC on this to my Rep/Senators asking them to try to require the FCC to get with the program. Got generic emails back. But that's what I expected and least it was an electronic response!
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post #1177 of 7371 Old 07-31-2008, 11:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

You are arguing with the wrong people here. You need to go to the FCC. But the point is, this has been debated at the FCC for 6 years by lawmakers, broadcasters, engineers and the ATSC and this is what it is and it isn't going to be changing. To continue this debate here it is pointless. We can't do anything about it.

AND of course, we know the FCC is never wrong....like CB on 27MHz, AM stereo, no code ham license (aka: the new CB on Shortwave), AM IBUZ...eeeerrrr IBOC, radio consolidation, the XM-Sirius merger and much much more
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post #1178 of 7371 Old 08-01-2008, 12:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by milehighmike View Post

Regarding digital tuners that both allow you to tune to a channel directly and do a rescan by only adding new "finds", my Best Buy Insignia does that.

So does the new R/S box and the CM 7000 too. The RS allows you to manually tune via mapped or RF channel....nice! I think its better than the CM box!
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post #1179 of 7371 Old 08-01-2008, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

We can't do anything about it.

I agree, there is nothing that can be done. The door has been closed on and technical changes. Rulemaking changes for getting channel ID to be real channels will never happen either. The money will keep anything there from happening as well.

I'm strongly voicing my displeasure with aspects of what was put together.

Quote:
The system, as designed, works.

Bingo. Therein lies the problem. IMHO the design is flawed. Unfortunately I wasn't paying attention during the public comment period and that is my fault. Not that anyone would have cared about what little old me had to say.

Quote:
No where that I have seen does the ATSC say you CAN'T manually tune a station. If a receiver doesn't allow for a manual channel change, that isn't the ATSC standards fault, but the fault of the manufacturer to allow this.

No, it is the ATSC standard's fault in that it doesn't require that manual tuning must be there, so that makes it a loophole for the manufacturers to drive a Mack truck through. If you don't require it, you know damn well that someone is not going to do it.

Quote:
And yes, there are receivers that will allow both a manual tune and a rescan without loosing what is already scanned in. I personally own one that does BOTH. Problem is, they are NOT the majority of receivers out in the field at this time.

The Digital Stream 9900 does as well.

In any event, you are very right in that this discussion isn't going to result in any changes. The government/ATSC has made their bed and now they have to lie on it, lumps and all.

I should probably vent my frustration with the whole ATSC digital infrastructure in a different thread. Is there a thread for venting displeasure with the ATSC standard and how it is being used by the broadcasters?

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post #1180 of 7371 Old 08-01-2008, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

No, it is the ATSC standard's fault in that it doesn't require that manual tuning must be there, so that makes it a loophole for the manufacturers to drive a Mack truck through. If you don't require it, you know damn well that someone is not going to do it.

There are some requirements (most from ATSC A74 recommended practices for receivers) for the CECB's, otherwise there are no DTV receiver performance standards which manufacturers are required to follow.

Jeff
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post #1181 of 7371 Old 08-01-2008, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

If granted, this would appear to make Bangor, ME the first all VHF DTV DMA, with 5 or more stations (as respects full power stations). However, WLBZ may not find 2 to their liking, but channel 13 appears to be available if they do not.

With DTV adjacent rules being more favorable will we see more such DMA's in the 100+ range? Probably not too many unless the US ever gets organized and assigns specific parts of the band(s) to specific areas.

Actually, the correct answer to that trivia question is Las Vegas.

KVBC-DT 2
KLAS-DT 7
KVVU-DT 9
KLVX-DT 11
KTNV-DT 12 (to be 13 post-transition)
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post #1182 of 7371 Old 08-11-2008, 10:25 AM
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Another market with 5 VHFs next year: Grand Rapids, MI.

WGVK-DT 5
WOOD-DT 7
WWMT-DT 8
WGVU-DT 11
WZZM-DT 13

Granted, only 7 and 8 are full market signals, 5 and 11 are a simulcast, and 13 only covers the northern half of the market, but still.

Anyway, our long conversation about additional channel changes is gone! The important notes of mine were:

KWNB-DT in North Platte, NE (another Pappas station) wants to keep channel 6 instead of their assigned channel 18.

WDKY-DT in Lexington, KY withdrew their petition to move to channel 46, instead applying to move to channel 31.

There was a fantastic discussion of transmitter costs going on that I'd love to see reposted...

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post #1183 of 7371 Old 08-13-2008, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

KWNB-DT in North Platte, NE (another Pappas station) wants to keep channel 6 instead of their assigned channel 18 ...

... and just today, the FCC appears inclined to go along with Pappas on its request to move KSWT-DT in Yuma, AZ (CBS/CW) from 16 to 13 post-transition, at 20 kW ERP, assuming the FCC can coordinate the change with Mexican authorities.

(Source: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-08-1897A1.pdf)

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post #1184 of 7371 Old 08-13-2008, 01:37 PM
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Looks like stations that try to keep their coverages may benefit according to this:

Public aware of DTV transition, slow to take action

A new survey from the Association of Public Television Stations (APTS) reveals a mixed bag when it comes to the public’s involvement with the February 2009 digital television transition.

On the one hand, awareness of the impending transition is at an all-time high, according to the study. On the other, many over-the-air (OTA) households are slow to take the necessary steps to continue receiving terrestrial television after the plug is pulled on analog transmitters, the survey found.

As of May 2008, 62 percent of OTA households said they would buy a converter box or digital television, compared to 28 percent in November 2006.

However, the study found that most of the 8.8 million OTA households saying they would buy a set-top converter box to continue receiving free OTA television have not done so.

Among all TV households surveyed, 9.2 percent — or 10.3 million households — said they requested a coupon. Of those requesting a coupon, 64.4 percent said they received the coupon and 54.2 percent had redeemed the coupon. Roughly 38 percent of those who redeemed the coupon reported installing the converter box.

About 70 percent of OTA households said they know what they need to do to continue to view television after the transition.

The APTS study also found that as the transition date nears, fewer OTA consumers said they would sign up for cable, satellite or telecommunications service to receive digital television, while more are inclined to buy a converter box or digital TV set. Those that said they would sign up for a paid service had dropped from 29 percent in November 2006 to 12 percent in May 2008.

The study results are based on a May-June 2008 survey of 1439 households conducted by research firm CENTRIS in Fort Washington, PA.

For more information, visit www.apts.org.

http://broadcastengineering.com/eng/...w-action-0813/

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post #1185 of 7371 Old 08-14-2008, 08:16 AM
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DA 08-1854
Released: August 14, 2008
MEDIA BUREAU RECEIVES REQUEST BY ANALOG TELEVISION STATION
IN THE UPPER 700 MHZ BAND TO CEASE ANALOG BROADCASTING,
SURRENDER NTSC LICENSE, AND OPERATE AS
A SINGLE CHANNEL, DIGITAL-ONLY TELEVISION STATION
In the 700 MHz First Report and Order,1 the Commission adopted service rules for licensing
the commercial use of the 746-764 MHz and 776-794 MHz bands, which had been
reallocated by Congressional direction from their previous use solely for the broadcasting
service. On reconsideration, the Commission clarified how it would review, on a case-bycase
basis, requests by incumbent broadcasters on channels 60-69 to voluntarily vacate their
NTSC channels prior to the end of the DTV transition.2
The Media Bureau has received a request from Indianapolis Community Television, Inc., the
licensee of analog television station WDTI-TV, NTSC Channel *69, and digital television
station WDTI-DT, DTV Channel *44,3 for Commission authority to: (i) cease analog
broadcasting on NTSC Channel *69 and surrender its license for the channel prior to the end
of the DTV transition; and (ii) thereafter operate WDTI-DT as a single channel, digital-only
television station on DTV Channel *44.
This request is available for inspection at the Commission’s Reference Center, 445 Twelfth
Street, S.W., Room CY-A257, Washington, D.C. 20554, and may also be accessed on the
FCC’s website at www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tv.html.
To promote the public interest and consistent with the requirement adopted in the Third DTV
Periodic Review Report and Order,4 in the event this request is granted, Indianapolis
Community Television, Inc. will be required to comply with the following viewer
notification requirements: The station must air viewer notifications on its analog and DTV
1 Service Rules for the 746-764 and 776-794 MHz Bands, and Revisions to Part 27 of the Commission’s
Rules, WT Docket No. 99-168, First Report and Order, 15 FCC Rcd 476 (2000).
2 Service Rules for the 746-764 and 776-794 MHz Bands, and Revisions to Part 27 of the Commission’s
Rules, WT Docket No. 99-168 et al., Memorandum Opinion and Order and Further Notice of Proposed
Rulemaking, 15 FCC Rcd 20845, 20868-72 (2000).
3 Facility ID 7908.
4 In the Matter of Third Periodic Review of the Commission’s Rules and Policies Affecting the Conversion
to Digital Television, 23 FCC Rcd 2994 (2007).
2
facilities every day on-air at least four times a day including at least once in primetime for a
60-day period prior to termination of broadcasting the analog signal. These notifications
must include: (1) the station’s call sign and community of license; (2) the fact that the
station intends to terminate its analog operations before the transition date; (3) the expected
date of analog termination; (4) what viewers can do to continue to receive the station, i.e.,
how and when the station’s digital signal can be received, and whether viewers will need to
repeat the channel scan on their DTV receivers; (5) information about the availability of
digital- to-analog converter boxes in their service area; and (6) the street address, email
address (if available), and phone number of the station where viewers may register comments
or request information.
For further information, contact Joyce Bernstein of the Media Bureau, Video Division at
(202) 418-1647.
By: Chief, Media Bureau
-FCC

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post #1186 of 7371 Old 08-14-2008, 08:20 AM
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POST-TRANSITION DTV TABLE OF ALLOTMENTS, 47 C.F.R. § 73.622(I), MADISON, WISCONSIN. Proposed substituting DTV Channel 49 for DTV Channel 11 for Station WMSN-DT. (Dkt No. RM-11459, 08-127). Action by: Deputy Chief, Video Division, Media Bureau. Adopted: 08/13/2008 by NPRM. (DA No. 08-1907). MB DA-08-1907A1.doc DA-08-1907A1.pdf DA-08-1907A1.txt

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post #1187 of 7371 Old 08-15-2008, 02:37 PM
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i hope this happens then i can watch the packers in HD
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post #1188 of 7371 Old 08-15-2008, 07:26 PM
 
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i hope this happens then i can watch the packers in HD

Depends on where you are....They are licensed at 15KW for DTV 11 but currently run 5KW ERP....on 49, it depends on co and adj channel assignments to see what ERP they get...could be their range wont be better on 49...I have a feeling they want to reuse a cabinet or two on 49 (easy to move up from analog 47)....the antenna MAY make it...but that depends on antenna design...it is a Dielectric but it may not have a low enough SWR on 49....if it has any tilt, it wont be bad only two channels over..all this comes to is a cheaper hit to their budget rather than building out a station on 11 (but they have the antenna, etc already..personally I would rather stay on 11 unless there is a co channel problem).
WELLL took another look at their service contour maps...THEY are getting BETTER coverage on 11 with 5KW than they do on their analog UHF channel now! Closer to Milwaukee and about the same to the west...(directional antenna NW-SE on 11)......MUST be financial to move to 49...otherwise, they are shooting their own foot not staying on DTV11 though I didnt check co channel yet!
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post #1189 of 7371 Old 08-15-2008, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Touchtone View Post

WELLL took another look at their service contour maps...THEY are getting BETTER coverage on 11 with 5KW than they do on their analog UHF channel now! Closer to Milwaukee and about the same to the west...(directional antenna NW-SE on 11)......MUST be financial to move to 49...otherwise, they are shooting their own foot not staying on DTV11 though I didnt check co channel yet!

What seems good on paper doesn't seem to be that way locally. If you read the local Madison thread, there have been complaints from people downtown who are having a helluv a time getting digital 11, when they are able to get all of the other channels (UHF), even though the antenna is on the same tower with three other stations.

They are probably figuring that they'll be able to get those viewers back as well as make sure they won't lose others at transition time.

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post #1190 of 7371 Old 08-15-2008, 09:29 PM
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Sinclair wants off of VHF and FAST. They own four stations with VHFs as their final channels, they've asked to change channels on three of them (WMSN, WSYX, WDKY) to UHF. There are a lot of reception issues with VHF channels in general it seems, and Sinclair wants to avoid them as much as possible. I can't say that I blame them in the least. They're not the only owner to opt to stay with UHF in most places. (See Cox, Nexstar)

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post #1191 of 7371 Old 08-15-2008, 10:56 PM
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Just went ahead and did my weekly update to my Channel Change page:

http://www.rabbitears.info/chchg.php

The FCC issued NPRMs for KSWT and WMSN this week.

KALO, WHME, and KWHD filed comments in support of their own filings.

And finally, and my own comments to the FCC regarding WBRA-DT have been received and posted. I'm hoping something good will come out of it. =)

- Trip

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post #1192 of 7371 Old 08-16-2008, 10:30 AM
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While reviewing the new Form 387's (it's going to take a while longer yet), I noticed the following stations are ending analog operations earlier than previously noted:

WGFL (CBS/Gainesville FL) - their 5000kW analog signal is off the air permanently as of 7/19/08:

http://www.mygainesville.tv/index.php

The reasoning was that the new local station on 9 is unable to commence construction on the tower until 53 is removed.

KDSE & KWSE (2 of PBS ND), will be ending analog operations on 9/1/08

WPXT (CW Portland, ME) - 9/13/08, due to equipment problems

This raises the early count to 106 and the already off count to 65.
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post #1193 of 7371 Old 08-16-2008, 11:57 AM
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FYI - KJLA is running on-air announcements that their analog will shut down on August 27th.
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post #1194 of 7371 Old 08-16-2008, 01:12 PM
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FYI - KJLA is running on-air announcements that their analog will shut down on August 27th.

They have been trying to turn off analog for 3 years. I may watch this channel just to see how they are handling it. The Form 387 indicates a grant in June, when their request had been denied as recently as May.
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post #1195 of 7371 Old 08-18-2008, 11:31 AM
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Not entirely on-topic, but worth noting:

The FCC announced today (press release .pdf) that Wilmington, NC stations will be allowed to display a graphic after noon on September 8 on their analog channels. The graphic would tell viewers that analog service has been discontinued and how to get the digital channels.

The commission also agreed that Wilmington stations could continue to use analog channels for emergency information should a hurricane or other major disaster strike the area.

As you've probably heard, most Wilmington stations are scheduled to cut off analog service at noon September 8 by special arrangement with the FCC, which plans to use the area as a test market. The FCC, however, made it clear today that no analog transmissions of any type -- emergency or otherwise -- will be allowed from U.S. full-power TV stations after February 17, the national cutoff.

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post #1196 of 7371 Old 08-18-2008, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dline View Post

The FCC announced today (press release .pdf) that Wilmington, NC stations will be allowed to display a graphic after noon on September 8 on their analog channels. The graphic would tell viewers that analog service has been discontinued and how to get the digital channels.

I like this idea. If it's not available to the rest of the stations, perhaps some will turn off analog programming early to show a similar message, since they will be unable to after 2/17/09.
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post #1197 of 7371 Old 08-19-2008, 07:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by dline View Post

Not entirely on-topic, but worth noting:

The FCC announced today (press release .pdf) that Wilmington, NC stations will be allowed to display a graphic after noon on September 8 on their analog channels. The graphic would tell viewers that analog service has been discontinued and how to get the digital channels.

The commission also agreed that Wilmington stations could continue to use analog channels for emergency information should a hurricane or other major disaster strike the area.

As you've probably heard, most Wilmington stations are scheduled to cut off analog service at noon September 8 by special arrangement with the FCC, which plans to use the area as a test market. The FCC, however, made it clear today that no analog transmissions of any type -- emergency or otherwise -- will be allowed from U.S. full-power TV stations after February 17, the national cutoff.

YEah our WONDERFUL State Senator, Kay Bailey Hutchinson (R-TX, note the party she is with!), wants to change that along the border......I say BULL!!! They have the same chance to get HDTVs or the converter boxes just like Poduka Iowa and BFE Texas...(and I'm close )....so tooo bad! Its all or none.....let the digital move take place; though I am not a big fan of saying bye bye to analog BUT I LOVE the HD.....not gonna be doing DXing of weak signal anymore...have to get a spectrum analyzer to look for a RF2 or 3 signal to see if 6m ham is open after Feb!! (hmmm my ex wife will be 51 on that day!! I should send a BIG TV for her birthday...analog of course
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post #1198 of 7371 Old 08-19-2008, 07:57 AM
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You can still DX with DTV, I do it all the time. =) Well, at least, I do when I'm home, at school I don't have antennas at high enough/outdoor locations that will get me much beyond the local stuff.

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post #1199 of 7371 Old 08-19-2008, 08:27 AM
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You can still DX with DTV, I do it all the time. =) Well, at least, I do when I'm home, at school I don't have antennas at high enough/outdoor locations that will get me much beyond the local stuff.

- Trip

I actually enjoy DXing a bit more with DTV. You have to make some judgments, as opposed to simply turning the rotator on a high tropo day.

And, I'll confess the DXing results are very inferior to VHF analog. I'm in western central PA. My best results DXing analog were South Dakota, Nova Scotia and eastern Texas/Louisiana. My best with DTV have been Buffalo and Cleveland. But I actually thought it was cooler getting those, since you had to really know where you're aiming and what conditions would be worth trying.
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post #1200 of 7371 Old 08-19-2008, 08:49 AM
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Well, tropo on UHF and skip on VHF are two different things. There will still be skip targets on VHF (I've received KOTA-DT 2 in Rapid City, covering 1,370 miles) but they'll be a lot harder to positively ID.

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