The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread - Page 41 - AVS Forum
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post #1201 of 7370 Old 08-19-2008, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Touchtone View Post

YEah our WONDERFUL State Senator, Kay Bailey Hutchinson (R-TX, note the party she is with!), wants to change that along the border......I say BULL!!! They have the same chance to get HDTVs or the converter boxes just like Poduka Iowa and BFE Texas...(and I'm close )....so tooo bad! Its all or none.....let the digital move take place; though I am not a big fan of saying bye bye to analog BUT I LOVE the HD.....not gonna be doing DXing of weak signal anymore...have to get a spectrum analyzer to look for a RF2 or 3 signal to see if 6m ham is open after Feb!! (hmmm my ex wife will be 51 on that day!! I should send a BIG TV for her birthday...analog of course

Please note that your wonderful State Senator (R-TX) is in cahoots with our wonderful State Senator, Barbara Boxer (D-CA). That bill passed the Senate unanimously, and if the House ever comes back from vacation, it very well might become law. Pandering and craven cowardice are not exclusive to one party or the other.

I can see the border stations' point (they're directly competing with Mexican broadcasters who aren't going to switch), but I fear the domino effect in adjacent markets, particularly mine (LA). Our stations are having a tough enough time maximizing as it is.
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post #1202 of 7370 Old 08-19-2008, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

There will still be skip targets on VHF (I've received KOTA-DT 2 in Rapid City, covering 1,370 miles)

Yeah, and I can't wait until the "noise" from U.S. analog VHF's shut down for the Es DTV Dx ! .... For example, KOTA-DT is One of the best DTV Es targets for me currently, but the problem is, local WDTN 2 is blow torch ... Although, I have seen what was likely to be a DTV station on 2 from that direction (probably KOTA-DT given how the ananlog was coming in on 3) "snow up" WDTN a couple of times ...

There will be Fewer U.S. Lo-VHF targets certianly, but I've seen enough Analog E-skip over the years, anyway ... Then again, with all the noise from the Full service U.S. VHF's gone, While they're still up I'm also hoping to log some LP analogs I haven't seen before as well ...


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but they'll be a lot harder to positively ID.
- Trip

Hmm.. Have to disagree a bit, there. With DTV I think It will be harder to figure out if there is any DX, and where the DX is coming from/detect weak signals(although in some cases we'll still be able to use the analog LP's for that for a while) ..

But I think PSIP and the TSID makes DTV stations via DX easier to ID than analog, and I have Id'd stations via PSIP w/o being able to quite decode video ... My personal "policy" though is that I don't log a station unless I can decode some video to some extent as well as positively ID it ...

Jeff
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post #1203 of 7370 Old 08-19-2008, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Hmm.. Have to disagree a bit, there. With DTV I think It will be harder to figure out if there is any DX, and where the DX is coming from/detect weak signals(although in some cases we'll still be able to use the analog LP's for that for a while) ..

But I think PSIP and the TSID makes DTV stations via DX easier to ID than analog, and I have Id'd stations via PSIP w/o being able to quite decode video ... My personal "policy" though is that I don't log a station unless I can decode some video to some extent as well as positively ID it ...

I mean, once you get one, IDing it won't be a problem, but figuring out what signals you're seeing... in a minute of skip, I can see maybe 5 or 6 signals fade in and out.

As far as figuring out if there's anything going on, that's no problem for me. The WinTV-D (I just got another one today) shows a carrier offset that's nice and stable around 1.250 KHz when there's a digital on channels 2 or 5.

Other tuners, though, you're right.

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post #1204 of 7370 Old 08-19-2008, 12:36 PM
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I won't be able to play with VHF DTV DXing until after the transition. Right now my neighboring markets have all VHFs occupied with analogs.

I'm fairly hopeful for regular reception of a VHF 9, WTOV out of Ohio, as their current analog signal is always receivable. How well that actually works remains to be seen.

Slightly side question to all this: does anyone have a sense of the relationship between VHF DT reception as compared to VHF analog reception? For example, one of my DTs will be reverting to VHF 8 in February. That analog channel comes in gorgeously right now. Will that present a similar strong signal post-transition?

I ask because I have some doubts concerning the massive ERP reductions these channels will undertake. Also, we're going from zero VHF DTs now to three in February plus at least two with good chances of DXing.
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post #1205 of 7370 Old 08-19-2008, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowMeow View Post

Slightly side question to all this: does anyone have a sense of the relationship between VHF DT reception as compared to VHF analog reception? For example, one of my DTs will be reverting to VHF 8 in February. That analog channel comes in gorgeously right now. Will that present a similar strong signal post-transition?

I ask because I have some doubts concerning the massive ERP reductions these channels will undertake. Also, we're going from zero VHF DTs now to three in February plus at least two with good chances of DXing.

Odds are it will be ok. Which station is it? WJW? A rule of thumb that I use is if a 7-13 analog ERP is at least 1/16 of the analog ERP it should be enough for replication. Remember that analog and DTV ERP's are two different things (peak vs. average power).

Note that many VHF ERP's are increasing by way of maximization applications, though most are still pending approval.

If it is WJW, 11kW is a bit light, but they have a maximization app pending for 30kW, though most of the increase is aimed at Canada?

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot...95&p360=1.000&

I don't see any pattern rotation.
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post #1206 of 7370 Old 08-19-2008, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

Which station is it? A rule of thumb that I use is if a 7-13 analog ERP is at least 1/16 of the analog ERP it should be enough for replication.

WWCP http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WWCP

The FCC file indicates it is right at the fringe of your rule of thumb (analog ERP: 166 kw; DTV ERP: 9.3 kw).

The only maximization permits in my neighboring markets I've seen is WQED was approved for an increase from 13 to 26. Of course, I haven't looked in more than a month, so...

Now, WTOV is looking real good if your rule of thumb holds up. They're going from 316 kw to 26.2 kw.

- - - ADDED - - -

Does the FCC really feel that DTV on VHF-Hi is going to be this effective? On UHF, we're talking 25% of the analog power. On VHF we're almost universally talking 10% or even less.
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post #1207 of 7370 Old 08-19-2008, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

If it is WJW, 11kW is a bit light, but they have a maximization app pending for 30kW, though most of the increase is aimed at Canada?

Actually, WJW's pattern is specifically meant to avoid interference with WWCP out of Somerset, PA. Having lived in NW and central PA my whole life, I can confirm that stations out of eastern OH are a major issue for us in terms of interference.

First rule of thumb with any FCC choices on radiating patterns: it's always to protect someone else.
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post #1208 of 7370 Old 08-19-2008, 10:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

But I think PSIP and the TSID makes DTV stations via DX easier to ID than analog, and I have Id'd stations via PSIP w/o being able to quite decode video ... My personal "policy" though is that I don't log a station unless I can decode some video to some extent as well as positively ID it ...

Ehh I can decode an analog signal just out of the noise (video OR audio ...well before my HDTV sees the PSIP from a DTV (if it is lucky...I need a better decoder...well hell I need a new HDTV ....AM analog is ALWAYS weak signal..why do you think the Aviation Radio Service is still AM after all these decades??? Not FM or going digital either....but AM (ancient modulation it aint! Reminds me of a coffee cup I got from a microwave radio manufacturer a decade ago...the type that changes its look with heated liquids?? This one showed a skeleton when cold....but hot, the complete dinosaur was filled in and the cup had writing that said "Analog??? Dead my a$$!!" I know PLENTY of 6 GHz analog microwave in existance today though in a point to point, digital IS better...but HDTV just gives us something in a trade...no more weak signal reception but better quality and more "channels" to view...
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post #1209 of 7370 Old 08-20-2008, 09:30 AM
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Regarding Id'ing stations, The point I was making is, Other than via XDS, You need some sort of identifying feature present(it often isnt' present) in the video/audio (station bug, local advertising/etc) to ID an analog station. But, You can ID a DTV station in most cases at any time via certian PSIP (the channel description info for instance) info or TSID any time you can acheive a signal lock.

Regarding extremely weak signals, yes we need about 15~16db SNR (roughly about -84 dBm at receiver input, but we can do a few dB better if our system NF is lower than typcial DTV receiver's front-end) to decode anything from a DTV station, whearas yes, with a good receive setup we can detect+use (to some extent) weaker/extremely weak analog signals, such as signals from within 300~500 Miles popping up above the noise every now of then in the middle of the day(pretty much happens all the time to some extent) via everyday tropo-scatter.

However, we won't know the real specs until the standard is finalized, but I've read as little as 4db SNR may be required for threshold reception of Mobile DTV via ATSC's upcoming M/H Standard --- If you're not familar with M/H, (sometimes called "MPH) Basically, the Mobile DTV streams are going to be "more robust" datastreams, transmitted via DTV stations as we know them but with added error correction to make the mobile DTV streams more robust and allow for mobile portable reception (but they will be receivable with fixed receivers as well, If anyone makes one that supports the new Mobile DTV standards that can be hooked up to outdoor antenna).

-------------------------

Jeff
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post #1210 of 7370 Old 08-20-2008, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MeowMeow View Post

The FCC file indicates it is right at the fringe of your rule of thumb (analog ERP: 166 kw; DTV ERP: 9.3 kw).

Does the FCC really feel that DTV on VHF-Hi is going to be this effective? On UHF, we're talking 25% of the analog power. On VHF we're almost universally talking 10% or even less.

9.3kW looks like the maximized app for WWCP, vs. the CP for 8.4kW. Not much of a boost, but perhaps they can't raise it as much as they would want due to interference from other stations (as you noted).

My rule of thumb for UHF-UHF is 1/20, but 1/5 is often seen. 1000kW was intended for stations moving off of Low-VHF, but many existing UHF stations have taken advantage of the extra power available as well.
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post #1211 of 7370 Old 08-20-2008, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

9.3kW looks like the maximized app for WWCP, vs. the CP for 8.4kW. Not much of a boost, but perhaps they can't raise it as much as they would want due to interference from other stations (as you noted).

Their transmitter on analog VHF 8 is well-known to carry a looong way. Obviously, in theory, a transmitter in Cleveland should not cause great conflict with a transmitter two counties east of Pittsburgh (approx 200 mi away from Cleveland).

And in areas like central PA, I'm sure some of the ERP decisions stem from the height of the terrain + the height of the tower.

I just really, really wish they hadn't slated the switchover for February. It's not exactly an easy time to go up on the roof and tinker with adding a VHF antenna.
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post #1212 of 7370 Old 08-20-2008, 02:40 PM
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might be a good reason for doing it NOW...

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

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post #1213 of 7370 Old 08-21-2008, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by MeowMeow View Post

I just really, really wish they hadn't slated the switchover for February. It's not exactly an easy time to go up on the roof and tinker with adding a VHF antenna.

Nor transmit antenna work either. The date choice was a purely political decision to be between the Super Bowl and March Madness and nothing else. The Senate wanted Dec 31, 2008, the House wanted April 15th, 2009. They compromised on Feb 17.

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post #1214 of 7370 Old 08-21-2008, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Nor transmit antenna work either. The date choice was a purely political decision to be between the Super Bowl and March Madness and nothing else. The Senate wanted Dec 31, 2008, the House wanted April 15th, 2009. They compromised on Feb 17.

Just curious; in general, as in the case of WWCP, where they plan to use their existing (directional) analog antenna, what kind of tower work, if any, would be needed at transition?

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post #1215 of 7370 Old 08-21-2008, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Nor transmit antenna work either. The date choice was a purely political decision to be between the Super Bowl and March Madness and nothing else. The Senate wanted Dec 31, 2008, the House wanted April 15th, 2009. They compromised on Feb 17.

Yea, April 15th would have been a great date to do this. Get your taxes in and shut down the analog broadcasts on the same day. The guvmint would be REAL popular that day.

Obviously few thought through - Congress, congressional staffers, FCC board, upper mucks at the NAB, the lobbyists and law firms who represent the communication industry - the practical aspects of choosing a analog shutdown in the dead of winter for stations and people with outdoor antennas. They never gave much consideration to the stations in the more northern climates that might have to replace antennas or do tower work at that time. They should have picked a shutdown date in July or August, when TV viewership is down and when many stations do tower and antenna work anyway. What they should have done is have picked 2 dates: one for final analog shutdown and a second date, 30 to 60 days later, for stations to completely vacate UHF 52 to 69. That 30-60 days would provide time for the stations with a out of core transition digital channel to move to their analog channel or another station's vacated analog channel. Yes, more rescans, but would give stations that need the time to put up new antennas and/or check out their new in-core digital transmission.
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post #1216 of 7370 Old 08-21-2008, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by PA_MainyYak View Post

Just curious; in general, as in the case of WWCP, where they plan to use their existing (directional) analog antenna, what kind of tower work, if any, would be needed at transition?

The station plans on using their existing antenna for digital, then none, but many stations who are staying on their DTV channels have their analog antennas on top and need to remove them to move the DTV to the top and the FCC wants all stations at their permament confugrations on Feb 17. In the winter, that is tough.

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post #1217 of 7370 Old 08-21-2008, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

Yea, April 15th would have been a great date to do this. Get your taxes in and shut down the analog broadcasts on the same day. The guvmint would be REAL popular that day.

Obviously few thought through - Congress, congressional staffers, FCC board, upper mucks at the NAB, the lobbyists and law firms who represent the communication industry - the piratical aspects of choosing a analog shutdown in the dead of winter for stations and people with outdoor antennas. They never gave much consideration to the stations in the more northern climates that might have to replace antennas or do tower work at that time. They should have picked a shutdown date in July or August, when TV viewership is down and when many stations do tower and antenna work anyway. What they should have done is have picked 2 dates: one for final analog shutdown and a second date, 30 to 60 days later, for stations to completely vacate UHF 52 to 69. That 30-60 days would provide time for the stations with a out of core transition digital channel to move to their analog channel or another station's vacated analog channel. Yes, more rescans, but would give stations that need the time to put up new antennas and/or check out their new in-core digital transmission.

Oh and it gets worse. Feb 17 is RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of the profitable February sweeps for stations. Because the switch off, Nielsen has moved the Feb ratings to March.

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post #1218 of 7370 Old 08-21-2008, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Oh and it gets worse. Feb 17 is RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of the profitable February sweeps for stations. Because the switch off, Nielsen has moved the Feb ratings to March.

The transition is the kind of thing that only groupthink among a group of people who've never touched any of the technology can come up with.

It fascinates that in two chambers of Congress, with 500+ members and tens of thousands of staffers and lobbyists that the idea never gained any traction that February is a really stoopid time to be screwing with antennas, transmitters and towers.
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post #1219 of 7370 Old 08-21-2008, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

Yea, April 15th would have been a great date to do this. Get your taxes in and shut down the analog broadcasts on the same day. The guvmint would be REAL popular that day.

You're right. December 31st at midnight would've been MUCH better.
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post #1220 of 7370 Old 08-22-2008, 07:48 PM
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The transition is the kind of thing that only groupthink among a group of people who've never touched any of the technology can come up with.

It fascinates that in two chambers of Congress, with 500+ members and tens of thousands of staffers and lobbyists that the idea never gained any traction that February is a really stoopid time to be screwing with antennas, transmitters and towers.

But its perfectly logical. Its not any different than the current 'war' which was approved by the same intelligent chambers and members upon their hearing all the BS from the guy at the top. Isn't Feb 17th on a Tuesday? -- middle of the week when the NFL games won't be on and therefore the same chambers members will be hard at work?
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post #1221 of 7370 Old 08-22-2008, 08:09 PM
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But its perfectly logical. Its not any different than the current 'war' which was approved by the same intelligent chambers and members upon their hearing all the BS from the guy at the top.

Sorry if I take a pass on conflating the DTV transition with a land war in Asia.

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Isn't Feb 17th on a Tuesday? -- middle of the week when the NFL games won't be on and therefore the same chambers members will be hard at work?

My feeling is that all of this has to do with climate in northern Virginia. Feb 17 is about the time there feels like hope that spring is coming in VA.

I live in central PA. Feb 17 is usually about the time we start wondering whether winter will really ever end.

The problem is that most politicians live in northern VA, not their come states. Oh, and I'd be shocked if any of them own an antenna and if more than a few have ever been up on a roof in good weather, let alone bad weather.
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post #1222 of 7370 Old 08-23-2008, 12:22 AM
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The only politician I've ever heard say they use an Antenna is Howard Dean.
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post #1223 of 7370 Old 08-23-2008, 06:07 AM
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Former House Chair of the Commerce and Telecommunications committee Joe Barton (the committee that set the April 15 date) has stated he uses an antenna at his home and vacation home. Who knows if he really does or not, but his district, has only a 40% cable penetration, one of the lowest in the country.

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post #1224 of 7370 Old 08-23-2008, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Former House Chair of the Commerce and Telecommunications committee Joe Barton (the committee that set the April 15 date) has stated he uses an antenna at his home and vacation home. Who knows if he really does or not, but his district, has only a 40% cable penetration, one of the lowest in the country.

I have to confess, that's interesting. I'd also note that the guy using the technology went for the more reasonable April 15 date.
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post #1225 of 7370 Old 08-23-2008, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by MeowMeow View Post


Now, WTOV is looking real good if your rule of thumb holds up. They're going from 316 kw to 26.2 kw.

- - - ADDED - - -

Does the FCC really feel that DTV on VHF-Hi is going to be this effective? On UHF, we're talking 25% of the analog power. On VHF we're almost universally talking 10% or even less.

The real question is whether the FCC will approve WTOV-DT's maximization petition. They were already turned down for 12kw because that would have caused almost 3% interference to WWCP.
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post #1226 of 7370 Old 08-23-2008, 10:50 AM
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The real question is whether the FCC will approve WTOV-DT's maximization petition. They were already turned down for 12kw because that would have caused almost 3% interference to WWCP.

I'm not certain if this holds true on VHF-Hi or not, but isn't DTV supposed to be less prone to near channel interference?
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post #1227 of 7370 Old 08-23-2008, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MeowMeow View Post

I'm not certain if this holds true on VHF-Hi or not, but isn't DTV supposed to be less prone to near channel interference?

Somebody like foxeng could probably answer that better that I can but my understanding is that adjacent channels have to be either very close or more than eighty miles apart.
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post #1228 of 7370 Old 08-23-2008, 01:46 PM
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Yes, they can be side-by-side (8 and 9, for instance) only if they're co-located or within 14 miles of each other. Otherwise, they must be 68.35 miles apart.

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post #1229 of 7370 Old 08-23-2008, 03:29 PM
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In their Form 387 filings, KSNB and KWNB indicated that they would be filing petitions to return to their analog Low-VHF channels (4 and 6), instead of constructing full power UHF facilities. From their filings:

Quote:


THE LICENSEE INTENDS TO FILE A PETITION FOR RULEMAKING THAT WILL SPECIFY A FINAL, POST-TRANSITION DTV FACILITY TO OPERATE ON ITS ANALOG CHANNEL AND WILL REPLICATE THE FACILTY SPECIFIED IN APPENDIX B. UPON GRANT OF THE PETITION FOR RULEMAKING, THE LICENSEE WILL SUBMIT AN APPLICATION FOR CONSTRUCTION PERMIT FOR THE AUTHORIZED FACILITIES, AND INTENDS TO COMPLETE CONSTRUCTION PRIOR TO FEBRUARY 17, 2009.

Per Trip's channel change listing, I see that KWNB's was filed (this is the one that had the discussion deleted wasn't it?). KSNB's petition was filed on 8/1 according the the FCC TV Query.
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post #1230 of 7370 Old 08-23-2008, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

Per Trip's channel change listing, I see that KWNB's was filed (this is the one that had the discussion deleted wasn't it?). KSNB's petition was filed on 8/1 according the the FCC TV Query.

Nice catch. Also noted, WISE-DT 19 in Fort Wayne has asked to move to channel 18. No ECFS filing noted for that one, either. Wonder why?

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