The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread - Page 56 - AVS Forum
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post #1651 of 7371 Old 11-18-2008, 05:29 PM
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FCC update: Hawaii to transition a month early; new website announced

In a press release (.pdf), the FCC announced that it has launced www.dtv.gov/Hawaii to give out information about that state's early analog shutoff, set for January 15.

The website listed did not work when I tried it (edit: it seems to work now), but it is reachable as a link on the main site, www.dtv.gov.

Neither the press release nor the website appear to go into why HI is saying "bye" to analog early, but AVS member johnpost noted in another thread that there's an endangered bird which nests near the current analog tower sites in February.

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post #1652 of 7371 Old 11-18-2008, 05:47 PM
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Montana Station Completes Analog Shutoff, Offers Lessons

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/69232

Quote:


Ernst said that many people reported problems that were fixed by the repositioning of an antenna, typically by placing it closer to a window. Also, the station found that some viewers who moved their antennas, or even dusted around them, lost the signal and had to re-adjust to regain reception.

In contrast to the common fear that many people will lose TV simply because the DTV signal does not cover all the area that the analog signal did, KTVH found the opposite—that people who could not receive the old analog signal can now get the DTV signal.

It appears that KTVH is operating at 17.5kW, but the CP application has not been granted yet. An STA was granted referencing the CP app. I'm going to show it as 17.5kW/ND vs. 9.3/D that I had before from the old Appendix B. The above comments about an expanded service area seem to confirm this. An amendment for 23kW was denied, however. If it is 17.5, the roughly 1/10 ratio (180kW analog) seems to be working for them.

KTVH is the 100th full power station, to not have an analog signal, according to the information I have. There may be others, but it's not very easy to figure out exactly when a station goes dark w/o being in the coverage area.
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post #1653 of 7371 Old 11-18-2008, 09:29 PM
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KUON has flash-cut from 40 to 12, and filed their license app yesterday. In it, they note that they're receiving reception complaints. They have a pending application to boost power to 75 kW from the 13 kW they are licensed for.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws....ility_id=66589

I have to wonder what the difference is that some stations like KMBC-DT and KUON-DT have such trouble with upper VHF while other areas have few or no issues with it.

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post #1654 of 7371 Old 11-18-2008, 09:39 PM
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http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/69232
Interesting that DISH was not ready.

Bob 61231
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post #1655 of 7371 Old 11-19-2008, 08:29 AM
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I suspect that KUON is having issues with indoor antennas on the ground floor. Lincoln's terrain is more rugged than I had thought as well.

Attached is a quick coverage map I made (for the 13kW facility). Bright green areas are generally strong enough for indoor antennas.

One question I have is why the tower is halfway between Lincoln and Omaha when Omaha has its own PBS station.
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post #1656 of 7371 Old 11-19-2008, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

I suspect that KUON is having issues with indoor antennas on the ground floor. Lincoln's terrain is more rugged than I had thought as well.

Attached is a quick coverage map I made (for the 13kW facility). Bright green areas are generally strong enough for indoor antennas.

One question I have is why the tower is halfway between Lincoln and Omaha when Omaha has its own PBS station.

Can you make a comparable map for the 75 kW they've asked for?

The reasoning I was told is that KUON started as a commercial station which then ended up under common ownership with KOLN. The owner didn't want to sell to a competitor, so they sold it (donated it?) to Nebraska PBS who didn't want to move the tower. Apparently, they still don't.

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post #1657 of 7371 Old 11-19-2008, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

Can you make a comparable map for the 75 kW they've asked for?

See the attached. Perhaps raising the height of the tower would be more useful, but it's already at 250m.

I wonder how UHF 40 compared, but perhaps not enough people were watching it to determine if that facility provided better service. I would think not as well due to the hills involved, at least as respects Lincoln. I will run a plot for the old facility. Let me know if you want to see it.

Edit: I'm showing an 8dB loss for LOS areas in Lincoln for VHF 12 (13kW) compared to the old UHF 500kW facility on 40. 40 was also lower at 223m.
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post #1658 of 7371 Old 11-19-2008, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip in VA View Post

I have to wonder what the difference is that some stations like KMBC-DT and KUON-DT have such trouble with upper VHF while other areas have few or no issues with it.

- Trip

IMHO there was no way KUON could replicate the coverage of a 316 kW analog station with only 13 kW. Add the distance between the tower and Lincoln and it really shouldn't be that surprising they received many complaints.
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post #1659 of 7371 Old 11-19-2008, 07:20 PM
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Attached is a coverage map for KUON's prior DTV service. It is better than I thought it would be, even though it is about 85' lower than 12.

To replicate the same relative signal strength for the LOS point that I selected outside of Lincoln would take 94kW on 12, ignoring the impact of noise.

Of course, 12 diffracts better, but much of that benefit is probably lost for antennas low to the ground or in urban areas.

It's making me reconsider VHF ERP's yet again.
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post #1660 of 7371 Old 11-20-2008, 09:13 AM
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AMENDMENT OF SECTION 73.622(I), FINAL DTV TABLE OF ALLOTMENTS, TELEVISION BROADCAST STATIONS. MONTGOMERY, ALABAMA.. Proposed substituting DTV Channel 20 for DTV Channel 16 for Station WCOV-DT. (Dkt No. 08-230, RM-11504). Action by: Chief, Video Division, Media Bureau. Adopted: 11/18/2008 by NPRM. (DA No. 08-2544). MB DA-08-2544A1.doc DA-08-2544A1.pdf DA-08-2544A1.txt

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post #1661 of 7371 Old 11-20-2008, 05:32 PM
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It seems that I have not correctly understood circular polarization. I thought that circular was simply radiating equal amounts of horizontal and vertical power. It appears that is not the case.

I was reviewing the antenna pattern info for WPLG, which was recently granted 156kW on 10 (circular) and noticed that the vertical ERP was significantly less than the horizontal. Note that the following was for their 30kW record, though I would assume the proportional difference will remain the same (see page 4).

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/f...ibit_id=650480

If someone can set me straight on Elliptical and Circular Polarization, I would appreciate it. Seeing the following on the FCC database seems to have confused me:

Polarization: Circular (H = V)

Also, FM radio seems to commonly employ equal horizontal and vertical ERP's. Is there another term for that?

Thanks,
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post #1662 of 7371 Old 11-20-2008, 05:43 PM
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You can generate circular polarization by equally dividing the power between two dipoles, one horizontal and one vertical, but you must have a ninety degree phase difference between the dipole feeds to make it work.

Look here:

http://webphysics.davidson.edu/physl...arization.html

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post #1663 of 7371 Old 11-21-2008, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HIPAR View Post

You can generate circular polarization by equally dividing the power between two dipoles, one horizontal and one vertical, but you must have a ninety degree phase difference between the dipole feeds to make it work.

Look here:

http://webphysics.davidson.edu/physl...arization.html

--- CHAS

You can also generate CP by feeding the dipoles in phase, but separating the dipoles by 1/4 wavelength. Here's a picture of that technique used on a circular polarized Yagi.

http://www.m2inc.com/products/vhf/2m/2mcp14.html

Ron

HD MPEG-2 Test Patterns http://www.w6rz.net
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post #1664 of 7371 Old 11-21-2008, 04:40 AM
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CP was all the rage in the late 70's for TV stations. Everyone station I know that had CP from that time went back to horizontal because no one had CP receive antennas and it took too more transmitter power to generate the CP wave due to the phase shifting. You still have the same problem today, no CP receive antennas so I am not sure why they would want to install a CP antenna.

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post #1665 of 7371 Old 11-21-2008, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

CP was all the rage in the late 70's for TV stations. Everyone station I know that had CP from that time went back to horizontal because no one had CP receive antennas and it took too more transmitter power to generate the CP wave due to the phase shifting. You still have the same problem today, no CP receive antennas so I am not sure why they would want to install a CP antenna.

There are a bunch of local stations using CP or elliptical polarization. Never though have I seen it specified whether it is right hand or left hand polarization. Anyone know? Or is it possible that it is not CP at all and the power is simply divided up into so much for horizontal and so much for vertical? Of course that is not the same as circular polarization.

I ask this because in my amateur radio experience CP antennas come with an ellipticity spec which tells you how non-circular the pattern is.

It's also my experience that a circular polarized receive antenna is the best choice when you don't have LOS to the transmitter. The improvement can be huge. If you have LOS then matching polarizations are best. Maybe someone will experiment with a CP TV antenna.
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post #1666 of 7371 Old 11-21-2008, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calaveras View Post

There are a bunch of local stations using CP or elliptical polarization. Never though have I seen it specified whether it is right hand or left hand polarization. Anyone know?

I have never heard it specified. I think the last station here that was using CP was RH.

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post #1667 of 7371 Old 11-21-2008, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

CP was all the rage in the late 70's for TV stations. Everyone station I know that had CP from that time went back to horizontal because no one had CP receive antennas and it took too more transmitter power to generate the CP wave due to the phase shifting. You still have the same problem today, no CP receive antennas so I am not sure why they would want to install a CP antenna.

I'm no antenna expert, but doesn't CP provide a considerably better signal to indoor antenna viewers who generally don't bother to orient their antenna's elements horizontally?

Doug Smith W9WI
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post #1668 of 7371 Old 11-21-2008, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w9wi View Post

I'm no antenna expert, but doesn't CP provide a considerably better signal to indoor antenna viewers who generally don't bother to orient their antenna's elements horizontally?

The issue isn't which is better, the issue is what is available to the consumer. There is a noticeable decrease in signal level of when transmitting a CP to a non CP antenna even though the orientation of the antenna isn't as critical. I did a quick google and didn't see a CP TV receive antenna. That is the real issue. No receive antennas. That is what killed the CP movement in the 70's.

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post #1669 of 7371 Old 11-21-2008, 08:08 PM
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Here's the text of the proposed legislation that has been passed by the Senate:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...8&position=all

--- CHAS

If it ain't broke, fix it till it is.
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post #1670 of 7371 Old 11-22-2008, 01:06 AM
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FCC requires RIGHT HAND CIRCULAR if it is polarized,
but may also be Elliptical or Slant, as discussed here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=15039143

Many more are coming to support ATSC-M/H (Mobile/Handheld) receivers....
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post #1671 of 7371 Old 11-22-2008, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post

FCC requires RIGHT HAND CIRCULAR if it is polarized,
but may also be Elliptical or Slant, as discussed here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=15039143

Many more are coming to support ATSC-M/H (Mobile/Handheld) receivers....

Thanks for the info. Never having dealt with a broadcast CP, I am not up on the legal particulars of it.

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post #1672 of 7371 Old 11-22-2008, 08:49 AM
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Should WPLG be listed as Elliptical? According to the antenna data, the vertical ERP is less than the horizontal.

I have uploaded an updated spreadsheet (see signaure for link).

Stations operating Post-Transition facilities: 1006
Stations with maximized Construction Permits but otherwise ready: 125
Stations to reduce analog operations prior to 2/17/09: 158
Stations to end analog operations early: 250
Stations that have already ended (or will not commence) analog operations: 101

Average 2-6 ERP: 13.7kW
Average 7-13 ERP: 24.5kW
Average UHF ERP: 513kW
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post #1673 of 7371 Old 11-22-2008, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HIPAR View Post

Here's the text of the proposed legislation that has been passed by the Senate:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...8&position=all

--- CHAS

I think they would accomplish more if they ran a non-stop scroll on the analog station for the last month of operation.
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post #1674 of 7371 Old 11-23-2008, 05:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

Should WPLG be listed as Elliptical? According to the antenna data, the vertical ERP is less than the horizontal.

Unless someone has better information, unless it is specifically noted as a CP (equal amounts of H and V), the predominant polarization is what is listed. You will see many stations listed as horizontal with some components of vertical. The vertical components are in preparations for mobile services which are vertical or back in the old days to cut down on reflections from either tall buildings or mountains. FM is also know to unbalance the H and V to cut down on multipath.

Cross pol H into V from transmit to receive will yield a 20 db loss in signal where a cross pol of H or V into CP is about 8 db signal loss.

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post #1675 of 7371 Old 11-23-2008, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by kb7oeb View Post

I think they would accomplish more if they ran a non-stop scroll on the analog station for the last month of operation.

Even if only one station in a market can continue analog broadcasts for 30 days (for messages), I think it would be helpful. I am convinced that a portion of OTA viewers simply won't understand the message until the transition happens and then they will be left scrambling. At that point, a message will be much better than snow.
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post #1676 of 7371 Old 11-23-2008, 10:45 AM
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As was shown in Wilmington, you had people who did not think the analog stations would cease broadcasting so they did nothing. WECT interviewed one woman who didn't do anything and asked her why. She said she had seen all the on air promotions and bill boards and newspaper articles but kept saying to herself that they would never turn off the analog transmitters. There are some people you just can't save.

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post #1677 of 7371 Old 11-23-2008, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

Even if only one station in a market can continue analog broadcasts for 30 days (for messages), I think it would be helpful. I am convinced that a portion of OTA viewers simply won't understand the message until the transition happens and then they will be left scrambling. At that point, a message will be much better than snow.

But snow on the analog TV is the message!

Seriously though, having 1 station in a market continuing a analog broadcast for 30 days with a continuous info message loop after the shutdown is not a bad idea. But they have to find stations that can and are willing to spend the money to maintain an analog broadcast for 30 days after Feb. 17. Maybe if the station can run commercials along with the info loop.

But after you eliminate the stations that will be digital only by February, doing a flash cut to their analog channel, the analog channel is blocking another station from their post-transition channel, have to remove the analog antenna in order to place a new full coverage digital antenna, there are not as many candidate stations to keep a analog broadcast on the air post-transition as Congress might think. The best candidates would probably be the low VHF stations would also offer, in most cases, the widest coverage.

However this is way late in the process to change course and find suitable stations to stay on the air for 30 days post-transition. There has been a astounding lack of fore-thought by the FCC and government on the practical aspects of the digital transition for the public/consumer. The FCC could possibly have ordered all stations to cease "live" programming on February 10 and switch to 24/7 broadcast of a analog shutdown loop message for the last week.
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post #1678 of 7371 Old 11-23-2008, 08:09 PM
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KSDX has applied for CH. 9 in the San Diego area. That means it will co-channel with KCAL-DT after 2009. It might not be on 2.17.09 since LP's don't have to go digital. That means KSDX-LD is possible. That will allow San Diegan's to watch XHTIT-DT but that station will co channel with KFTR-DT.

KSDX-LD will be on Mt. San Miguel in Spring valley at 0.0275kw ERP as approved by the FCC.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=168576
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post #1679 of 7371 Old 11-23-2008, 08:17 PM
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The whole idea of letting them keep even ONE analog station will just bolster people like that Wilmington Woman. Better to "Let them watch static" (to paraphrase Marie Antoinette) than to give them false hope that analog will continue.

As far as a 24 hour loop showing nothing but - I think a 24 hour crawl on the analog for the last week would be more likely to be accepted by the broadcasters.

You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

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post #1680 of 7371 Old 11-23-2008, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

having 1 station in a market continuing a analog broadcast for 30 days with a continuous info message loop after the shutdown is not a bad idea. But they have to find stations that can and are willing to spend the money to maintain an analog broadcast for 30 days after Feb. 17.

And there lies the rub.

I struggle to believe there are many stations that want to do anything beyond Feb 17 except transmit digital.

Frankly, there have been delays enough and information enough. There comes a point where the average OTA viewer has to face the firing squad if they didn't upgrade by now.

I have a relative who works retail, and she said they had a guy come in the other day and bought five HDTVs because he figured it was just the easiest solution under the circumstances. They asked him about the coupon boxes and he said he figured he might as well modernize while he's screwing with it.

While I'm not saying people have to go overboard like this guy did, the reality is that by Feb 2009 anyone who isn't prepared has been given fair warning.
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