The official final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 7371 Old 07-30-2007, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Yes, I agree .... If they do "wise up" on this, I wonder how much bandwidth would be needed/used by the UWD's ? Would 4 or 5 channels be enough, including for future "demand"?

It seems that after multiple channel election rounds, geographical areas remain where the core channels will not allow sufficient spectrum for ideal DTV operations. The well known WPVI situation in the Philadelphia metro area is an good example. If additional channels are reallocated, that would complicate licensing for new TV stations after the FCC lifts its freeze on applications.

--- CHAS

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post #182 of 7371 Old 07-30-2007, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Mister B View Post

Here in El Paso KFOX's analog channel is 14 and digital is on 15. The analog channel is filled with short horizonal lines of static. After some big storms last summer it cleared up and I went to a neighbor's to confirm my suspicion that the digital signal was off the air. As soon as digital 15 came back on the static resumed. Oddly, the static is not as bad on older TV's, I suppose they put in better OTA tuners back then...

The Spanish channel KINT is just the opposite situation with the digital signal on 25 and analog on 26 and shows no problems. I will just have to wait until I can convert to HD before 2009.

But difference in your reception has to do with the relative transmitter power of the adjacent transmitters. KFOX analog channel 14 is broadcasting at a 420 MW, alongside its adjacent channel 15, which is at 350MW now and will be increased to 1,000.

KINT's analog channel 26 is at a more robust 2,240MW, whereas its adjacent analog tramsmitter is still on its temporary authority to broadcast at a measly 1.8MW. As soon as it goes up to its licensed power of 1,000 MW, it will wreak havoc on the adjacent analog channel 26.
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post #183 of 7371 Old 07-30-2007, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HIPAR View Post

It seems that after multiple channel election rounds, geographical areas remain where the core channels will not allow sufficient spectrum for ideal DTV operations. The well known WPVI situation in the Philadelphia metro area is an good example. If additional channels are reallocated, that would complicate licensing for new TV stations after the FCC lifts its freeze on applications.

--- CHAS

I suspect UWD's sharing spectrum with Broadcast DTV stations will be much, much less than ideal for DTV operations, nationwide.....

Update: Oh, BTW, from what I recall from the FCC rulemaking at the time, at one point the DTV core spectrum WAS going to be ch 7-51, and all the stations were going to fit there post-transistion.

But, in 1998, after several parties with interest(broadcasters, mostly) stated their case regarding adding 2-6 into the core, FCC decided to allow it. I don't have the link handy currently, but I recall a section of an R&O on this issue where FCC discussed changing the core to ch 2-46 given the "extra" 2-6 being added in would allow for more than enough room(supposedly anyway), but because of the timing involved concerning when 2-6 was added to the core+the work that at that time had already progressed regarding the DTV table of allotments for during the transistion --- basically, if I recall, it was for that reason they stated they decided to just add 2-6 to the core rather than change the core channels from 7-51 to ch 2-46.

Jeff
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post #184 of 7371 Old 07-30-2007, 05:38 PM
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Much of the interference being discussed can be mitigated by good receiver design:

a) Provide adequate front end selectivity
b) Reduce front end gain to the minimum required to establish the lowest noise figure
c) Maintain high dynamic range in the first mixer
d) Provide IF selectivity close to the mixer and lump the IF gain after it
e) Employ a double conversion scheme if required to eliminate response on a image frequency

That receiver will inordinately increase the cost of a TV set so manufacturers will not devote the necessary resources; they know 90% of the sets will be connected to satellite or cable and will never see an antenna.

The best over-the-air system would be a component approach consisting of the monitor and an optional high quality receiver add-on for the relative few viewers who need it.

From a marketing viewpoint, I must be wrong because there isn't too much like that in the stores.

--- CHAS

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post #185 of 7371 Old 07-30-2007, 10:18 PM
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You can watch the digital feed without going HD, DVD burners with digital tuners can be a less expensive way.
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post #186 of 7371 Old 07-31-2007, 01:05 AM
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Win-TV has a small digital and analog tuner that will plug into the USB port of a computer. They're on sale at Radio Shack right now for $59.95 after rebate. It's a very inexpensive way to get a digital tuner.

I got one and it works very well. The digital receiver isn't as sensitive as my Dish DVR, but it's quite adaquate.

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post #187 of 7371 Old 07-31-2007, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

Win-TV has a small digital and analog tuner that will plug into the USB port of a computer. They're on sale at Radio Shack right now for $59.95 after rebate. It's a very inexpensive way to get a digital tuner.

I got one and it works very well. The digital receiver isn't as sensitive as my Dish DVR, but it's quite adaquate.

Larry
SF

There is a thread on this forum on the AutumnWave USB HDTV-GT (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=695589). It's more expensive but is an excellent receiver. I use it almost every day along with TSReader at our various DTV stations. Does NTSC/DTV OTA and Quam (unencrypted). And, if you read the thread, you will see that it has the best Customer Service in the business.

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post #188 of 7371 Old 07-31-2007, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HIPAR View Post

... there isn't too much like that in the stores.....

Well, I don't ever expect to see DTV receivers available to consumers which are designed and built more along the lines of say, my Drake 2A(triple conversion HF receiver BTW) or Drake TR7 ...... It's never happened with consumer NTSC equipment AFAIK, either ...

Anyhow, Charles Rhodes has written several articles on these issues, here is another :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0072/t.6906.html

---------------------------------------------------------

Personally, I've yet to see any evidence that suggests UWD's will properly-* protect DTV operations ON channel, for say, those receiving their Only TV signals from fringe areas beyond stations predicted coverage areas, let alone involving these issues in the Rhodes article with single conversion superhet receivers. Or for that matter any "official" disucssion of any importantance of protecting those viewers from interference from unlicensed devices, should they be allowed to share the broadcast spectrum.

* - of course "properly" by my definition doesn't allow much leeway concerning adding additional "noise" to the broadcast bands - I don't want these things on the TV bands any more than I would want them on say, 20 meter HF band, or any more than I want BPL, which is of course, not at all ....

One thing I think Is for sure, once the UWD's get "out there", there will be no bringing them back ..... Even if someday, for instance, it is decided to "repurpose" the broadcast spectrum+use it(i.e. "auction it off") for something else other than OTA DTV broadcasting, well, those UWD's will still be there using the spectrum, just like my 25 year old garage door opener .....

Jeff
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post #189 of 7371 Old 07-31-2007, 07:02 PM
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Those (like us) who are interested in these kinds of things know the entire spectrum, even millimeter wave, is becoming 'super packed'. Now channels have been split, spectrum has been reallocated. There are so many transmitters but FCC enforcement is practically non existent.

Twenty five years ago, simpler equipment almost always worked because it wasn't being stressed and mostly everything employed robust AM or FM modulation.

Today, it's so complicated especially for DTV. An 8VSB waveform is quite fragile with all of its redundant spectral components having been filtered away... 19 megabits in a 6Mhz channel!

Nyquist and Shannon would be amazed.

BTW Jeff, I have a Drake TR7.

--- CHAS

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post #190 of 7371 Old 08-01-2007, 12:23 PM
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Well, I guess I have had to replace a few lamps(for the meter/etc) in the TR7 over the years, otherwise ...... ....

----------

Anyhow, this is no surprise :

Remote Sensing Devices Fail FCC White Space Test

The full info from the FCC report can currently be downloaded/found under 7/31 date with the heading " FCC Office of Engineering and Technology Announces the Release of Reports of Initial Measurements on TV White Space Devices ", in the "headlines" section here:

www.fcc.gov

Jeff
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post #191 of 7371 Old 08-01-2007, 09:20 PM
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Can anyone post a link to the post transition channel allotments? I can't seem to find it anywhere.
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post #192 of 7371 Old 08-02-2007, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habscolts View Post

Can anyone post a link to the post transition channel allotments? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

go to http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/. Scroll down to the May 23, 2006 release "Tentative Digital Channel Designations for Stations Participating in the First and Second Rounds of the DTV Channel Election Process." The Excel link will provide the combined 1st and 2nd round list in spreadsheet format. The short 3rd round list was released on August 29, 2006. These lists are not complete, as as a few stations are not on them and some have asked for a different final digital channel (see top of this thread). When the FCC will release a final list for all full power stations is not known. A complete list for all the low power and Class A would also be useful for those deciding on what antenna they need to put up. Maybe they will release that before February, 2009.
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post #193 of 7371 Old 08-06-2007, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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The FCC has done it! They have come out with their final DTV channel list. OK, they do note that there might be a last minute change or two (see below), but for all intents and purposes, THIS IS IT!

http://www.fcc.gov/dtv

See the first entry, dated today.

Among the notables locally in the Chicago/Rockford market:

THE CURSE IS OVER! WBBM-DT granted channel 12 at 3.2 kw. Probably going to much higher than that after analog shudtown. Whoo hoo!

Also, WREX-DT's request to go to 12 kw has been granted, so they will go out 60 miles in many directions in 2009.

OK. I need help to sort all this out...and there will be a few more changes as the change requests are extended to AUGUST 15. Ya got 1 week!!!

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post #194 of 7371 Old 08-07-2007, 01:20 AM
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I found the FCC announcement, but no list. Where did you find the list of station assignments?

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post #195 of 7371 Old 08-07-2007, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post

I found the FCC announcement, but no list. Where did you find the list of station assignments?

Larry
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http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-07-138A2.pdf

No changes for the SF Bay Area.

Here's the entire text:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...C-07-138A1.pdf

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post #196 of 7371 Old 08-07-2007, 12:44 PM
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Thanks for the links.

I've done a comparison of the final assignments from the FCC with the list I have for the San Francisco Bay Area (SF-Oakland-San Jose-Salinas-Monterey-Sacramento). As Ron says, there are no channel changes for this area, but I did have to update a few power and HAAT figures. The information is now up to date at: http://www.choisser.com/sfonair.html

You'll find the station list in numerical order by the new channel assignment at the bottom of the page. Also included is the latest information I have on the low power assignments.

Across the entire country, how many stations will be in the channel 2 to 6 segment?
Channel 2 - 7
Channel 3 - 7
Channel 4 - 2
Channel 5 - 13
Channel 6 - 8
Total = 37

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post #197 of 7371 Old 08-07-2007, 04:03 PM
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Don't forget that the FCC is seeking comments regarding a request from WUOA-23 in Tuscaloosa, AL. That station requests to move to channel 6.

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post #198 of 7371 Old 08-07-2007, 05:05 PM
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Well, the FCC appears to have solved the debate between WPCW and a low power TV operation that opposed WPCW's use of channel 49. The FCC wants WPCW to use channel 11 which will become vacant after analog shutoff.
What I do not see is any provision for WPCW to get approval for an interim channel. It appears to me WPCW will remain analog only until 2009. Does anybody read the FCC's decision differently (starts at p. 57 of the report)?

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post #199 of 7371 Old 08-07-2007, 05:34 PM
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I imagine the FCC would allow WPCW to stay analog-only. I mean, they haven't built anything out by now; why would the FCC make them build something just to shut it off in a year and a half? Or, more likely, by the time it's done, in 6 months time?

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post #200 of 7371 Old 08-07-2007, 06:47 PM
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Only 37 channels on Lo-VHF, maybe FCC can move them to Hi VHF and UHF after 2009. Would be nice to get Ch.6 for expanded FM radio.
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post #201 of 7371 Old 08-07-2007, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

The one thing that is true from that article is that post transition, there will be no need for transmitters in the US market and you will be seeing many of the transmitter manufactures either go out of business or have to sell overseas harder to stay in business for the next 5 to 10 years when the first generation DTV transmitters from the late 90's come up for replacement.

I suspect few stations will ever replace their DTV transmitters. By the time the gear is old enough, there will be so few viewers using over-the-air that they will just keep the old equipment loping along.

Right now many retailers are training their sales staffs to tell customers that "you can't get digital TV without cable or satellite", that "There will be no over-the-air reception at all after February 2009", that "Antennas don't work for HDTV"

Apartment owers get a fee for having cable or satellite distribution in their buldings & don't have to pay to maintain the system. Not so with master O-T-A antenna syatems. I have never seen a well maintained MATV system.

The CEA members are lobbying hard to be allowed all over the TV spectrum with low power un-licensed devices. When most of your neighbors and nearby businesses are running this new-age RF stuff the interference will be untenable.

I think it is a sad situation.

Keep Amtrak Alive!
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post #202 of 7371 Old 08-07-2007, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Nx View Post

I suspect few stations will ever replace their DTV transmitters. By the time the gear is old enough, there will be so few viewers using over-the-air that they will just keep the old equipment loping along.

I think it is a sad situation.

It used to be that when there was a fire, any poor person could run to the nearest fire alarm box and pull the lever. Now, only the people with enough money for a telephone can contact the fire department directly. I think we're better off.
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post #203 of 7371 Old 08-08-2007, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Nx View Post

I suspect few stations will ever replace their DTV transmitters. By the time the gear is old enough, there will be so few viewers using over-the-air that they will just keep the old equipment loping along.

Some stations on the air since 1998 have already started replacing their digital transmitters. Nationwide there has been documented resurgence of OTA antenna sales and as has been posted by many people here in AVSForum, the media is reporting same with the upcoming transition date now set. Will OTA surpass MSOs? No, but digital is showing people you CAN get as good if not better signals OTA than via a MSO. !n your sig you say "Keep Amtrak Alive!" At this point, OTA digital TV has a better chance of surviving than Amtrak.

sidebar - Let a guy go on vacation and this thread explodes with posts!

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post #204 of 7371 Old 08-08-2007, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntAltMike View Post

I don't see how the graphs or any of the explanations above show that an 8VSB broadcast signal is more susceptible to degradation from an analog channel below it rather than from one above it. No appreciable signal from the adjacent NTSC transmitter above or below spills into the plot of the subject 8VSB transmission.

FWIW, I'm in a market with five digital (edit)"+1s" (14A/15D, 26A/27D, 45A/46D. 50A/51D, 56A/57D). I don't have any digital (edit)"-1s" and have never had to deal with any. I have always considered myself lucky to be in such a situation because I can substantially attenuate the strong, lower adjacent NTSC visual carrier with inexpensive bandpass filters (BPF-UHF used to cost under $20 each before they were discontinued), since it is over 5Mhz below the upper adjacent 8VSB pilot, whereas I have read that other antenna installers whose setups were afflicted by strong upper adjacent NTSC carrier have had to use more expensive ($200), Blonder Tongue MWT narrow notch traps, even at VHF frequencies, and I don't know if they are narrow enough to be useful at UHF frequencies.

I have read that some of the consumer, 8VSB tuners use varactor controlled bandpass filters varying in width from ten to 20dB so if that is correct, they may have some an appreciable mitigating effect on lower adjacent NTSC visual carriers (which is where most of the NTSC's RF power is), but negligible effect on upper adjacent visual carriers. I have observed previously that consumer satellite L-band tuners have more bandpass filtering than do the commercial satellite receivers. I'm sure that this is deliberate, to avoid hamstringing a technician who might not want the L-band input filtered in a fixed manner when he can effect what he considers to be optimal filtering externally. I therefore suspect that commercial 8VSB tuners might not have the same bandpass input filtering that consumer-grade 8VSB tuners have.

Las Vegas is really fun with the +/- 1's

2D/3A "-1"

7D/8A/9D/10A/11D/12D/13A -- Don't even know where to begin with this one...

15A/16D "+1"

21A/22D "+1"

39A/40D "+1"
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post #205 of 7371 Old 08-08-2007, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Nationwide there has been documented resurgence of OTA antenna sales

Along those lines, I was driving a different route than usual earlier this afternoon which I haven't "visited" in a while. So, remembering Tony's post+my sometime pasttime of looking for antennas on peoples roofs while driving around and sitting at stoplights/etc --- I saw several new ones(that are probably new in the past 6 months), small~medium sized VHF/UHF combos --- specifically looked a lot like RS VU90's/120's (think antennacraft makes those, not sure) or CM advantage line, and they all appeared to be aimed fairly "properly" at Dayton antenna farm (which is/will be all UHF digital for Full service stations BTW) ....

I thought, well at least that seems to be a good sign, and this was in town, in areas served by cable .. It's about the 2nd "surge" in new antennas on roofs in my area I've seen in the last 10 years, the last time being around 2001~2002 ...

Jeff
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post #206 of 7371 Old 08-08-2007, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Along those lines, I was driving a different route than usual earlier this afternoon which I haven't "visited" in a while. So, remembering Tony's post+my sometime pasttime of looking for antennas on peoples roofs while driving around and sitting at stoplights/etc --- I saw several new ones(that are probably new in the past 6 months), small~medium sized VHF/UHF combos --- specifically looked a lot like RS VU90's/120's (think antennacraft makes those, not sure) or CM advantage line, and they all appeared to be aimed fairly "properly" at Dayton antenna farm (which is/will be all UHF digital for Full service stations BTW) ....

I thought, well at least that seems to be a good sign, and this was in town, in areas served by cable .. It's about the 2nd "surge" in new antennas on roofs in my area I've seen in the last 10 years, the last time being around 2001~2002 ...

That's interesting ... I find myself looking at roofs while driving myself!

In my case it's because I live in one market and my hometown is in another one and I'm kind of curious whose antennas are pointed where ... but they are out there, and quite a few appear to be of fairly recent vintage.

As a matter of fact, I was listening to a western Illinois radio station late last year while on vacation, and they had a story about how well Winegard was doing thanks in part to this digital transition.

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"ItÂs looking more like Y2K than the Bay of Pigs." - FCC Commissioner Adelstein, 6-13-09, on the DTV switch
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post #207 of 7371 Old 08-08-2007, 07:05 PM
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I have looked at roof top antennas since I was a kid. I too have seen some new ones around Indianapolis, where most people got by with rabbit ears. We have two antenna farms. One is north northwest and the other directly south, but in the next county. I saw one new UHF yagi aiming east toward Dayton/Cincinnati. Confused or wanting a change? I can only get those stations after dark.

I have been telling everyone that asks me about OTA antennas to just get a 4 or 8 bay UHF unit. Here in Indianapolis we will not have any low band after shutoff and the bowtie antennas work ok for local high band.

It will be an interesting time for TV DX. Brave new world!
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post #208 of 7371 Old 08-08-2007, 11:24 PM
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Oh bleep. It looks like WMYT in Charlotte didn't get its wish to change its final digital channel from 39 to 46. Therefore I will have both of the following stations on channel 39:

WMYT Charlotte, distance 74 miles, azimuth 34 degrees, ERP 200 kW
WKTC Sumter SC (Columbia), 68 miles, 111 degrees, 500 kW

Right now I have adequate reception on WMYT in the evening, and a bit spotty during the day. WKTC is now on very low power from a more distant location, so it's not a factor for me at all. I wonder how reception is going to work out? Hopefully a good directional antenna like the 91XG that I plan to install can sort them out, with an angular separation of 77 degrees.

I'll also have the following pair on channel 47:

WJZY Charlotte, 74 miles, 34 degrees, 1000 kW
WZRB Columbia, 59 miles, 120 degrees, 50 kW (currently has no digital channel at all)

[added later] On searching through the complete report for "WMYT" I found the rationale for denying the channel change request: unacceptable adjacent-channel interference with WYCW (ch 45) in Asheville.
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post #209 of 7371 Old 08-10-2007, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Kenney View Post


Across the entire country, how many stations will be in the channel 2 to 6 segment?
Channel 2 - 7
Channel 3 - 7
Channel 4 - 2
Channel 5 - 13
Channel 6 - 8
Total = 37

Larry
SF

The new breakdown for all 3 bands comes out to:

VHF-LO: 37 (2%)
VHF-HI: 450 (25%)
UHF: 1324 (73%)

With stats like these, it seems like a waste to even continue to allocate TV to VHF-LO. Is this range not useful for anything else? I would have rather kept 5 extra UHF channels to make up for the loss of this range.

I also wasn't pleased to discover unlicensed devices using "unused" TV frequencies. Isn't losing 52-69 bad enough?

Perhaps the best I can hope for is the relegation of VHF-LO to specialty antennas.? At least I can get good enough VHF-HI reception on my UHF antennas.

Maybe if DTV is renamed "wireless TV" it will spur more interest. People seem to be so enamored of wireless devices... and yet they ignore OTA. Around here, I can drive for miles and not see a single antenna. Sometimes, I've thought about putting one outside just to make people aware of it.

It doesn't help when stores like CostCo say that one needs to call their cable or satellite company to upgrade their service to get HD.

I hope that the analog shut-off will at least open some eyes...


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post #210 of 7371 Old 08-10-2007, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon_77 View Post

With stats like these, it seems like a waste to even continue to allocate TV to VHF-LO.

Did you count the several thousand LP and translator TV stations? The list the FCC put out only counts for the full power TV stations.

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