Master List of currently available 4k HDR titles, will be updated often. - Page 432 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12931 of 18906 Old 02-01-2017, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-re...1312153517.htm


I sit 13 ft from my 65, yet I can tell the sharpness difference between a reference movie like Sully and an upscale such as Pacific Rim. True 4k has an extra layer of dimension to the picture along with cleaner refinement. It's easy to spot when you know what to look for. Native 4k also has more fluid motion too.
With 20/20 vision, a 13ft on a 65" TV you should be able to see about 735p worth of detail... If you're honestly seeing better than 1080p worth of detail you'd need 30/20 vision or better.

Now, one thing you can see at further distances is obviously the HDR, but also the better chroma subsampling, as a UHD Blu-ray has 1080p worth of chroma, while regular Blu-rays only have 540p worth of chroma. This difference should be easily noticeable at your viewing distance like you said if you know what you're looking for. However, the reason chroma is sampled lower than luma is because our eyes are much more sensitive to luma, so you're really missing out by not sitting in the 5-8 ft range from your TV.

The study you linked isn't particularly useful because 4KTVs tend to have other qualities that make their pictures better. They would need to be built and calibrated to exactly the same spec for a study like that to be accurate.
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post #12932 of 18906 Old 02-01-2017, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
This seems like some type of bug. I personally use clear for everything except game mode (which disables the option). I do so because my set has judder with 24hz titles played at 60hz (Netflix/Amazon etc). I have to set my Shield to 60hz to get 10bit HDR playback or else it forces 12bit and gives extreme banding. Setting it to clear just about eliminates the judder without any SOE and/or artifacts.
On my Samsung I still do the AMP 'off - clear - off' on broadcast material why oh why they have never acknowledged that problem accross multiple sets infuriates me... but on 'Films' i use BFI (LED clear motion on) with both sliders set at 0.
Occasionally i get a tiny glitch but i have always put this down to 23.97<24 catch up.
On devices such as the Oppo that can output true 23.97 i very rarely see any problems.
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post #12933 of 18906 Old 02-01-2017, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by morphinapg View Post
With 20/20 vision, a 13ft on a 65" TV you should be able to see about 735p worth of detail... If you're honestly seeing better than 1080p worth of detail you'd need 30/20 vision or better.

Now, one thing you can see at further distances is obviously the HDR, but also the better chroma subsampling, as a UHD Blu-ray has 1080p worth of chroma, while regular Blu-rays only have 540p worth of chroma. This difference should be easily noticeable at your viewing distance like you said if you know what you're looking for. However, the reason chroma is sampled lower than luma is because our eyes are much more sensitive to luma, so you're really missing out by not sitting in the 5-8 ft range from your TV.

The study you linked isn't particularly useful because 4KTVs tend to have other qualities that make their pictures better. They would need to be built and calibrated to exactly the same spec for a study like that to be accurate.
I always see people make statements like this or based on the confusing pixels per degree of arc, so I wanted to test it myself using an easy real world test.

I taped a hair from my head to a piece of paper and stuck the paper onto my TV, then I sat on my couch (~3 meters away).

I could definitely see the hair at that distance, the average diameter of human hair is 80um, thus I can at least see things with 80um width.

Calculating using wolframalpha the pixels on an 8K 65" TV are 215um thus ~3x the diameter of a human hair, its only until you get to 16K 65" TV where the pixels are aprox the same as the diameter of a hair.

wolframalpha.com/input/?i=65%22+%2F+(3840*2)

I am just demonstrating that for a 4k 65" TV at 3 meters, the human eye can definitely still discern even a single pixel.

Caveats:
  • I understand the human vision is complex, thus maybe a black hair on a white piece of paper is easier to discern. But there are scenarios where there are some black pixels surrounded with lots of white like this in movies (e.g. black text on white paper), or if the TV is used as a computer monitor.
  • I also understand it may not seem crisper subjectively when considering an entire image.
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post #12934 of 18906 Old 02-01-2017, 10:43 PM
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I can't figure out how to edit posts here on avsforums. I was going to add to my past post:

HDR is going to be much more noticeable an upgrade than an 8K or 16K tv. I completely agree we should focus on HDR as an upgrade in 2017.

I just wanted to make sure people didn't think we had reached the limit of human eyes for resolution, (don't need more people like those who think humans can only see 24fps...)
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post #12935 of 18906 Old 02-01-2017, 10:50 PM
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Wow edits are really needed here.

CORRECTION to my post 2 above, I accidentally divided the number of horizontal pixels by the 65" diagonal, rather you should use the width, which for a 65" TV is according to rtings 56.7".

With the corrected calculation:
  • 1080p 65" TV has pixels of 750um ~9x diameter of average human hair (80um)
  • 4K 65" TV has pixels of 375um ~4.5x diameter of average human hair (80um)
  • 8K 65" TV has pixels of 187.5um ~2x diameter of average human hair (80um)
  • 16K 65" TV has pixels of 93.76um ~1x diameter of average human hair (80um)
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post #12936 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by twgz View Post
I always see people make statements like this or based on the confusing pixels per degree of arc, so I wanted to test it myself using an easy real world test.

I taped a hair from my head to a piece of paper and stuck the paper onto my TV, then I sat on my couch (~3 meters away).

I could definitely see the hair at that distance, the average diameter of human hair is 80um, thus I can at least see things with 80um width.

Calculating using wolframalpha the pixels on an 8K 65" TV are 215um thus ~3x the diameter of a human hair, its only until you get to 16K 65" TV where the pixels are aprox the same as the diameter of a hair.

wolframalpha.com/input/?i=65%22+%2F+(3840*2)

I am just demonstrating that for a 4k 65" TV at 3 meters, the human eye can definitely still discern even a single pixel.

Caveats:
  • I understand the human vision is complex, thus maybe a black hair on a white piece of paper is easier to discern. But there are scenarios where there are some black pixels surrounded with lots of white like this in movies (e.g. black text on white paper), or if the TV is used as a computer monitor.
  • I also understand it may not seem crisper subjectively when considering an entire image.
I have a cool test I designed that may be more appropriate for this. Create a grid of checkerboarded white/black pixels in mspaint, at the exact size as your screen resolution. View that grid in full screen so that every pixel is directly mapped 1:1 to your screen. Next, start moving backwards slowly. Eventually, this grid will appear to become a fully solid grey screen. Move closer, and while you won't be able to make out every pixel, you'll be able to tell it isn't quite solid. Try to find the crossover point between the two. Measure that. Next, compare that measurement to the dpi of your screen. Let's say you used a computer monitor and it had the standard 96dpi. Let's say the measured crossover point was 3.5ft away. Now you have a ratio of 96dpi @ 3.5ft. Multiply the two, and you get 336dpi @ 1ft, which you can then use to find how much dpi you should be able to see at any given distance. For example, if you sit 10ft away, that is 336 / 10 = 33.6 dpi, which means you would need a ~131" screen to see the full resolution of 4K.

Feel free to test your own eyes this way. The measurement for someone with 20/20 vision is typically around 300dpi @ 1ft.

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Originally Posted by twgz View Post
I just wanted to make sure people didn't think we had reached the limit of human eyes for resolution, (don't need more people like those who think humans can only see 24fps...)
I would like to repeat that nobody seriously believes we can't see past 24fps. That was an internet joke, exaggerating the original claim of 60fps, which has some scientific basis for live action footage, which means it would also apply to games with realistic motion blur, but not to games with no motion blur or unrealistic motion blur.

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post #12937 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by bigck417 View Post
Have to say I'm really looking forward to Fantastic Beasts coming out in March. Looks like it has a 4K DI and some of that stuff should really "wow"


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Yes, sir! And add to that Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk. And no so much for the movie, but I want to see how much difference the higher frame rate will make. I'm hoping/guessing this movie becomes the new reference so other studios will follow suit.

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post #12938 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 06:07 AM
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I finally got this corrected but had to contact UV as instructed by Sony today. I now have 4 copies of Resident Evil: Afterlife on my Sony account. 3 of them are UHD and one is HD. I have 3 copies at the UV site (2 at HD and one at UHD). I originally redeemed the HD version at Vudu so that why it's 3 (one from Vudu and 2 from Sony).
I hadn't checked in over a week. I just looked and see that the UHD version of Afterlife was added to my UV account on January 25th. I'm just glad they kept their word and did finally add the UHD streaming rights to my UV library.

I have multiple copies in my accounts too. But I originally redeemed from the Sony Ultra app. And so far the other seventeen UHD movies that I redeemed from either the Ultra app or the SonyPicturesStore, all gave me the UHD streaming rights. Only Afterlife caused major issues for some reason.

Hopefully they don't have these issues with Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk. I plan on getting that because it is the first UHD title to use 60FPS. Plus it also comes with the 3D BD, UHD BD, 2D BD, and UHD UV streaming rights. So my plan is to reward Sony by purchasing every title that Sony releases this way.(with the 3D BD included with the UHD BD)
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post #12939 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 06:10 AM
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Slightly off topic but not completely...because everyone has been curious how Dolby Vision will pass through devices if at all..

Denon and Marantz has announced that some of their receivers are being updated for Dolby Vision and HLG. unfortunately, it is only their current models.


The D + M Group will publish selected for AV receivers and preamplifiers their brands Denon and Marantz, a firmware update that allows the devices, metadata according to the HDR specifications "Dolby Vision" and "HLG" (Hybrid Log Gamma ). However, this update is only available for the current Denon models AVR-X1300W, AVR-X2300W, AVR-X3300W, AVR-X4300H and AVR-X6300H as well as the current Marantz models NR1607, SR5011, SR6011, SR7011 and AV7703. In addition, D + M intends to make it available only at the end of 2017 or early 2018; Extensive tests are planned.




https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...e-3614979.html
That's incredible. Good on them. Video codecs, interfaces, DRM, and other technologies are moving too fast and out of sync, screwing over consumers. This might mean that I won't HAVE to necessarily update my receiver when I buy an ATSC 3.0 TV in 2-3 years.
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post #12940 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Slightly off topic but not completely...because everyone has been curious how Dolby Vision will pass through devices if at all..

Denon and Marantz has announced that some of their receivers are being updated for Dolby Vision and HLG. unfortunately, it is only their current models.


The D + M Group will publish selected for AV receivers and preamplifiers their brands Denon and Marantz, a firmware update that allows the devices, metadata according to the HDR specifications "Dolby Vision" and "HLG" (Hybrid Log Gamma ). However, this update is only available for the current Denon models AVR-X1300W, AVR-X2300W, AVR-X3300W, AVR-X4300H and AVR-X6300H as well as the current Marantz models NR1607, SR5011, SR6011, SR7011 and AV7703. In addition, D + M intends to make it available only at the end of 2017 or early 2018; Extensive tests are planned.


https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...e-3614979.html
Shouldn't be a big issue as most UHD Players come with Dual HDMI Outputs so that you don't need to go through the non-compatible AV Receivers. BUT good to see they are implementing convenience for the future.

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post #12941 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 06:49 AM
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So I preordered the 4K Blu-ray for John Wick from Walmart.com and the automatically gave me the digital HDX copy on Vudu. Although it's not the UHD, I thought it was cool for them to do that. Hopefully the digital code will redeem in UHD when I pick up next week.

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post #12942 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 07:57 AM
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So I preordered the 4K Blu-ray for John Wick from Walmart.com and the automatically gave me the digital HDX copy on Vudu. Although it's not the UHD, I thought it was cool for them to do that. Hopefully the digital code will redeem in UHD when I pick up next week.

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Do the Lionsgate titles usually redeem in UHD? I pre-ordered from Amazon.

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post #12943 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by twgz View Post
Wow edits are really needed here.

CORRECTION to my post 2 above, I accidentally divided the number of horizontal pixels by the 65" diagonal, rather you should use the width, which for a 65" TV is according to rtings 56.7".

With the corrected calculation:
  • 1080p 65" TV has pixels of 750um ~9x diameter of average human hair (80um)
  • 4K 65" TV has pixels of 375um ~4.5x diameter of average human hair (80um)
  • 8K 65" TV has pixels of 187.5um ~2x diameter of average human hair (80um)
  • 16K 65" TV has pixels of 93.76um ~1x diameter of average human hair (80um)
Now can you tell us in english? What is the viewing distance for the screen measurements for each of the resolutions?
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post #12944 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 08:53 AM
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Do the Lionsgate titles usually redeem in UHD? I pre-ordered from Amazon.
Not always. For instance, I just got Deepwater Horizon a couple of weeks ago but haven't been able to redeem anywhere because the only place that usually redeems in UHD is Flixster and they haven't added it to their catalog. I chatted with them yesterday and they told me there is some issue with streaming rights that is preventing them from adding it and they don't know when/if they'll add it in the future.

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post #12945 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by lujan View Post
Now can you tell us in english? What is the viewing distance for the screen measurements for each of the resolutions?

UHD BD and streaming has a greater bit-rate which can reduce compression artifacts visible from a greater distance than the charts indicate.


- Rich
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post #12946 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 10:28 AM
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UHD BD and streaming has a greater bit-rate which can reduce compression artifacts visible from a greater distance than the charts indicate.


- Rich
I don't know why you lumped "UHD BD and streaming" together. The bitrates on UHD BD normally dwarf the bitrates on streaming services, sometimes by a factor of 4:1.
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post #12947 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 11:04 AM
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I don't know why you lumped "UHD BD and streaming" together. The bitrates on UHD BD normally dwarf the bitrates on streaming services, sometimes by a factor of 4:1.
I lumped them together is that regardless of their native bandwidth UHD always uses more which can provide have less artifacts. All 4K content I have viewed on Netflix, for example, looks considerably better than the 1080p version.

This difference has more to do with compression than with eye charts.

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post #12948 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 11:30 AM
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UHD BD and streaming has a greater bit-rate which can reduce compression artifacts visible from a greater distance than the charts indicate.


- Rich
That's definitely true. Even if you're only seeing 1080p worth of detail, that detail will still look better than a 1080p encode because of the greater bitrate, although I don't think UHD streaming would be better bitrate than 1080p Blu-ray in most cases. Also, like I said before, the better chroma subsampling and obviously the HDR.

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post #12949 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 12:32 PM
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saw jack reacher in DV on vudu. looked alright.
can't help but just not really be blown away most of the 4k UHD stuff recently. seems like such a marginal upgrade compared to when 1080p Blu Ray dropped ~10 years ago, the impact lasted for years afterwards.
Perhaps it's not the original HDR source which is marginal; rather what is marginal are the displays that folks are using to view their HDR content, combined with a streaming service that further compresses the signal.

You did not mention what display you used.

The Vizio P-series cannot get anywhere near bright enough to do HDR any justice, and neither do the OLEDs, although they are better than the Vizios. Neither these nor the Sony X940D come anywhere close to 1000 nits, so none of these could be considered stellar HDR performers.

So it is not surprising that some are not wowed by HDR, when they are streaming it to displays which are not stellar HDR performers.

Of course it goes without saying that not all content is well suited for showing off HDR. If the film has many dark and dim scenes and not a lot of outdoor daylight scenes, than the HDR version may not be all that impressive.
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post #12950 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 12:37 PM
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I've always been amazed at how good HDR looks from my low end Sony 850C. I figured since it looks so good from my TV, something like the Sony 940D or Z series must look mind boggling.

Especially since my TV can't get anywhere near 1000 nits. Many times I already need to turn away because things can get too bright with my Sony 850C(Like happened a few times last night when I watched the Deep Water Horizon UHD BD). So I couldn't imagine a TV that has three times brightness. It seems like I would be almost blinded by it.
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post #12951 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by OLED4UNME View Post
Perhaps it's not the original HDR source which is marginal; rather what is marginal are the displays that folks are using to view their HDR content, combined with a streaming service that further compresses the signal.

You did not mention what display you used.

The Vizio P-series cannot get anywhere near bright enough to do HDR any justice, and neither do the OLEDs, although they are better than the Vizios. Neither these nor the Sony X940D come anywhere close to 1000 nits, so none of these could be considered stellar HDR performers.

So it is not surprising that some are not wowed by HDR, when they are streaming it to displays which are not stellar HDR performers.

Of course it goes without saying that not all content is well suited for showing off HDR. If the film has many dark and dim scenes and not a lot of outdoor daylight scenes, than the HDR version may not be all that impressive.
No, it is the source. I saw Jack Reacher: Never Go Back in a Dolby Cinema. It was not impressive. It looked like a better than average SDR grade.
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post #12952 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 01:12 PM
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I've always been amazed at how good HDR looks from my low end Sony 850C. I figured since it looks so good from my TV, something like the Sony 940D or Z series must look mind boggling.

Especially since my TV can't get anywhere near 1000 nits. Many times I already need to turn away because things can get too bright with my Sony 850C(Like happened a few times last night when I watched the Deep Water Horizon UHD BD). So I couldn't imagine a TV that has three times brightness. It seems like I would be almost blinded by it.
I bought the Deepwater Horizon UHD HDR disk. I played it on an Oppo UDP-203 player and viewed it on a Sony 75XBR X940D. It looks startlingly wonderful, to my eyes at least, but I agree that I wouldn't want the brightest images to have been any brighter.

Speaking of good UHD HDR, I really liked how good the UHD HDR version of Inferno looked. I might add that its Atmos soundtrack is terrific too.
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post #12953 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by OLED4UNME View Post
Perhaps it's not the original HDR source which is marginal; rather what is marginal are the displays that folks are using to view their HDR content, combined with a streaming service that further compresses the signal.

You did not mention what display you used.

The Vizio P-series cannot get anywhere near bright enough to do HDR any justice, and neither do the OLEDs, although they are better than the Vizios. Neither these nor the Sony X940D come anywhere close to 1000 nits, so none of these could be considered stellar HDR performers.

So it is not surprising that some are not wowed by HDR, when they are streaming it to displays which are not stellar HDR performers.

Of course it goes without saying that not all content is well suited for showing off HDR. If the film has many dark and dim scenes and not a lot of outdoor daylight scenes, than the HDR version may not be all that impressive.
That would be true if most films used 1000 nits or more, for more than 25-30 percent over the duration of the film. If peak nits were full screen, that would be another thing.

HDR is much more than nits and brightness, I think being able to maintain color saturation at higher nits without the color desaturating to white is much more HDR then blinding brightness on a display.

Dark scenes can look a amazing, all content depends on the source. The colorist and director intent.

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post #12954 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 02:22 PM
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Have to say I'm really looking forward to Fantastic Beasts coming out in March. Looks like it has a 4K DI and some of that stuff should really "wow"


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Saw it in IMAX with the dual laser projectors and it was legitimately good visually
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post #12955 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 02:25 PM
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Master List of currently available 4k HDR titles, will be updated often.

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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Slightly off topic but not completely...because everyone has been curious how Dolby Vision will pass through devices if at all..



Denon and Marantz has announced that some of their receivers are being updated for Dolby Vision and HLG. unfortunately, it is only their current models.





The D + M Group will publish selected for AV receivers and preamplifiers their brands Denon and Marantz, a firmware update that allows the devices, metadata according to the HDR specifications "Dolby Vision" and "HLG" (Hybrid Log Gamma ). However, this update is only available for the current Denon models AVR-X1300W, AVR-X2300W, AVR-X3300W, AVR-X4300H and AVR-X6300H as well as the current Marantz models NR1607, SR5011, SR6011, SR7011 and AV7703. In addition, D + M intends to make it available only at the end of 2017 or early 2018; Extensive tests are planned.








https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...e-3614979.html


That press release doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. The fact that Dolby and the various pre-pro and AVR manufacturers have not mentioned anything about it prior to this makes me skeptical about what they are trying to say. I mean how could Onkyo, Yamaha, Emotiva and others be silent on this when we are about a month and a half away from projected DV disc releases? Especially odd considering they expect it to release late 2017 or early 2018. I remember their promises for DTS:X firmware updates that took about half a year longer to release than they said.

Though as someone mentioned before the dual hdmi output from most UHD players makes this not much of an issue but it would be nice to know it works. Guess we will wait and see what happens in the long run.
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post #12956 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 02:27 PM
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Saw it in IMAX with the dual laser projectors and it was legitimately good visually
I'm worried all the CGI (which I'm guessing there's a lot of) will look soft and unnatural as usual compared to the 4K camera footage?

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post #12957 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 02:31 PM
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Master List of currently available 4k HDR titles, will be updated often.

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I'm worried all the CGI (which I'm guessing there's a lot of) will look soft and unnatural as usual compared to the 4K camera footage?


It might but in the theater it didn't look bad at all. I don't know if the cgi used a 4k workflow or not on this one.

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post #12958 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
HDR is much more than nits and brightness, I think being able to maintain color saturation at higher nits without the color desaturating to white is much more HDR then blinding brightness on a display.
Exactly. "Good HDR" doesn't mean my retinas have to get fried.
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post #12959 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by DisplayCalNoob View Post
That would be true if most films used 1000 nits or more, for more than 25-30 percent over the duration of the film. If peak nits were full screen, that would be another thing.

HDR is much more than nits and brightness, I think being able to maintain color saturation at higher nits without the color desaturating to white is much more HDR then blinding brightness on a display.

Dark scenes can look a amazing, all content depends on the source. The colorist and director intent.
Absolutely agree with all of that. Also, specular highlights! A few 1000 nits pixels on the edges of things works wonders. And the reflected lights visible in the pupils of people's eyes. It's not going to be in danger of blinding the viewer, but it makes such a difference if it's properly bright and not a wimp (ish) 400 nits.

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post #12960 of 18906 Old 02-02-2017, 03:38 PM
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No, it is the source. I saw Jack Reacher: Never Go Back in a Dolby Cinema. It was not impressive. It looked like a better than average SDR grade.
Dolby Cinema at around only 100 nits compared to Dolby "Pulsar" monitor at 4000 nits?? Once again, the theater is not nearly bright enough to show-off HDR in all its full splendor and glory. HDR will be more impressive on flagship consumer displays in your home, like the ~2000 nit Sony Z9D.

Having said that, perhaps the Jack Reacher film is not all that well graded or simply doesn't have the right scenery to take full advantage of the benefit of HDR. But certainly HDR content can look spectacular/dazzling with the right content properly displayed.

For HDR to be more than a "marginal" improvement, one will need the right content, graded/mastered properly, and a display capable of rendering it fully.

Most of us simply do not yet own displays that show off the full capabilities of HDR. If you saw Jack Reacher: Never Go Back on a properly set-up Z9D and told me it was meh, then I would take your word for it.

But on a Vizio, which can't even do 500 nits windowed and does not meet the requirements for UHD Premium certification?
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