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post #13051 of 18926 Old 02-05-2017, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Kamus View Post
Exactly, this is my point.

Brighter colors look different. People seem to put too much stock on WCG and probably don't realize that Rec.709 mastered to 100 nits doesn't get very bright. WCG helps with "man made" colors like neon a lot. But colors usually found on nature can be reproduced very well by just the Rec.709 gamut.

In fact, the max brightness a blue pure blue can be in Rec.709 is only 7 nits (that's seven, not a typo)
So of course a blue higher than SDR is going to look very different. Same goes for every other color, but blue is the dimmest.

Also, I forgot to add. Rec.709 and sRGB have exactly the same color gamut. (the only difference is the limited vs full range, and that sRGB is 80 nits vs Rec.709 100 nits)
Hehe so you are right and wrong The colors are the same it's the dynamic range that is increased. ..and no rec 709 and srgb are not the same they are close but not the same and has nothing to do with limited or full range, that's different, again that's dynamic range.
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post #13052 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
Hehe so you are right and wrong The colors are the same it's the dynamic range that is increased. ..and no rec 709 and srgb are not the same they are close but not the same and has nothing to do with limited or full range, that's different, again that's dynamic range.
https://www.image-engineering.de/lib...ec-709-vs-srgb

Take a look at the green triangle. That represents both sRGB and Rec.709, it overlaps perfectly.

And yes, I realize the colors are the same.. But they don't look the same when they are brighter. And in fact, some colors can never look like they should unless you go over the 100 nit limit that SDR content is mastered at.

Take colors like gold on a bright environment. It just doesn't look the same on SDR. or the way daylight looks on an HDR demo (a demo that is actually taking advantage of the color volume. Most HDR movies need not apply, since those are usually the same APL as their SDR counterparts and only go "brighter than white" on highlights)

Anyway. I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong here. Color volume is what sold me on HDR from the start. Here's a nice webinar that goes into the subject from the guys at SpectraCal:


The relevant part is during the first 4 minutes. Where he mentions that higher nit colors are perceived as more saturated colors. (and he's just talking about the Rec.709 color space)

Usually, people associate how saturated a color looks directly to the gamut only, and think it has no relation to how bright the color is. (I used to believe this myself, now I know better)
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post #13053 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 01:20 AM
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Thanks guys for linking to my channel! I will try to make more of these.
That was excellent, thank you...please keep it up!

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post #13054 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 01:42 AM
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With regard to calibration, sRGB and Rec709 have the exact same Gamut, with sRGB set to 2.2 Gamma, while Rec709 can be 2.2 to 2.4 Gamma.
The gamma is often identical though, as Rec709 is often 2.2 (as it has been historically, until BT1886 changed things, and then 2.4 became the underlying default - incorrectly, as a BT1886 calibration with a black that is above zero generates an overall gamma closer to 2.2 than 2.4...).

For image encoding they are different, but that is a very different story, and most sRGB material that is not computer generated is actually encoded to Rec709.
(To see the different encoding standards see: http://www.lightillusion.com/lut_manual.html#maths - you may need to pre-load the page, and then use the link)

Also, Rec709 nor sRGB are locked to a specific nits level, as they are both 'Relative' standards, unlike ST2084 HDR which is an 'Absolute' standard, so a Rec709 or sRGB display with a peak luma of 400, 500, or 1even 1000 nits is perfectly valid.
But, ST2084 does 'suggest/specify' that the nominal diffuse white point (what would be peak while in Rec709.sRGB) is placed at 100 nits, within its absolute standard. That means the average picture brightness/level of ST2084 can easily be lower than a Rec709 display when using peak luma above 100 nits, as is very likely in normal home lounge situation.

The EBU spec for displays actually defines grade-1 to grade-3 display as being Rec709/BT1886 with peak luma ranging from 100 nits to 400 nits.

Just for info.

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post #13055 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 04:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
Hehe so you are right and wrong The colors are the same it's the dynamic range that is increased. ..and no rec 709 and srgb are not the same they are close but not the same and has nothing to do with limited or full range, that's different, again that's dynamic range.
He mean higher color volume in HDR even though it's TV is not using a WCG panel.

He's technically right.

This is why Samsung new strategy is to claim they have higher color volume than OLED even though they have a lower color gamut (because they get brighter)
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post #13056 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post
unlike ST2084 HDR which is an 'Absolute' standard, so a Rec709 or sRGB display with a peak luma of 400, 500, or 1even 1000 nits is perfectly valid.
This is true. Which is why cranking up the backlight of your TV is perfectly valid to fight ambient light on the environment you're in for SDR.

However, the content is still mastered to 100 nits max.
So all things being equal. (say you're watching a 5000 nits display outdoors to fight the sun) the content shouldn't look very different if you compensate correctly. And if you overcompensate, we know what happens: Tremendous eyestrain, because the APL is going up if you crank up the backlight.

HDR like you say, is an absolute standard, something that works very well on light controlled environments, but you can't compensate ambient light right now... BUT:

I hear HLG (hybrid log gamma) is actually going to use your TV's ambient light sensor to adjust for ambient light dynamically. It will change the gamma on the fly to compensate for ambient light as a way to try and keep the image looking "correct" as much as they can.

I see no reason why TV manufacturers can't come up with similar solutions for every form of HDR standard out there.
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post #13057 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 07:57 AM
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Copy of John Wick UHD has been shipped, should be here tomorrow. I really really really hope its a got a UHDR Media code and not just the HDX version.
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post #13058 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 08:16 AM
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So has there been any reviews for the John Wick UHD BD? My copy is out for delivery today from Amazon.

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post #13059 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 08:26 AM
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HDR has tremendous benefits for color even disregarding the expanded color space.

Imagine a night-time scene with a bonfire. The colorist and cinematographer want the flames to be the brightest part of the image.

In SDR the colorist would have to make the brightest parts of the flames 100 nits white. In HDR the colorist can make the brightest parts of the flames different tones of orange and yellow at 100 or even 200 nits.
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post #13060 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 08:32 AM
 
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So has there been any reviews for the John Wick UHD BD? My copy is out for delivery today from Amazon.
There is a review on the forum from Ralph Potts.
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post #13061 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamus View Post
This is true. Which is why cranking up the backlight of your TV is perfectly valid to fight ambient light on the environment you're in for SDR.

However, the content is still mastered to 100 nits max.
So all things being equal. (say you're watching a 5000 nits display outdoors to fight the sun) the content shouldn't look very different if you compensate correctly. And if you overcompensate, we know what happens: Tremendous eyestrain, because the APL is going up if you crank up the backlight.

HDR like you say, is an absolute standard, something that works very well on light controlled environments, but you can't compensate ambient light right now... BUT:

I hear HLG (hybrid log gamma) is actually going to use your TV's ambient light sensor to adjust for ambient light dynamically. It will change the gamma on the fly to compensate for ambient light as a way to try and keep the image looking "correct" as much as they can.

I see no reason why TV manufacturers can't come up with similar solutions for every form of HDR standard out there.
Some valid comments there, backed-up with more info here: http://www.lightillusion.com/uhdtv.html
Could be worth a read.

Steve
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post #13062 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by b0rnarian View Post
Copy of John Wick UHD has been shipped, should be here tomorrow. I really really really hope its a got a UHDR Media code and not just the HDX version.
Can't check here, is it in UHD on Vudu?

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post #13063 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 10:21 AM
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Can't check here, is it in UHD on Vudu?
negative, no VUDU UHD.
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post #13064 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 10:48 AM
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There is a review on the forum from Ralph Potts.
I take his reviews not with a grain of salt but with a full bottle of it; both PQ and movie wise. To me they are pretty off as I don't think his projector can match the HDR goodness of my KS9800 and also b/c half the movie review is usually about his experience of how and where he ended up watching the movie and not about the movie itself. Also, he barely gets into the story, characters and the depth of it all - my personal opinion but I think other editors do a much more commendable job. IE: HiDef Digest guys.

In addition, there's at least 3-4 positive reviews of the UHD on this thread, maybe 2-3 pages back.

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post #13065 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by b0rnarian View Post
I take his reviews not with a grain of salt but with a full bottle of it; both PQ and movie wise. To me they are pretty off as I don't think his projector can match the HDR goodness of my KS9800 and also b/c half the movie review is usually about his experience of how and where he ended up watching the movie and not about the movie itself. Also, he barely gets into the story, characters and the depth of it all - my personal opinion but I think other editors do a much more commendable job. IE: HiDef Digest guys.

In addition, there's at least 3-4 positive reviews of the UHD on this thread, maybe 2-3 pages back.
I think Ralph Potts reviews are well done and very useful. I appreciate what Ralph does, as I suggest do most other AVS posters.
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post #13066 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 11:07 AM
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I think Ralph Potts reviews are well done and very useful. I appreciate what Ralph does, as I suggest do most other AVS posters.
Agreed, lots of ppl find his reviews helpful and I've been reading them for months now as well. But I think I am just used to better journalism and in-depth details with at least 5-6 paragraphs about the film (without spoilers), whereas his are just two paragraphs and the 2nd one being whether he watched the movie alone, with his wife, and/or kids and if at a theater when it came out and how the entire event played out. Basically same formula in every single review. You can also pretty much copy and paste his picture details review from the last 20 reviews with minor details changed. BUT I must say, I am not saying anything bad about him or his process, its the way he does things and it works for some and not others.
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post #13067 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 11:20 AM
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He is reviewing a movie that has already been discussed ad nauseum from reviewers already though. If you want to read about the movie itself you can pick from literally hundreds of reviews on RT. Ralph doesn't go into a lot of detail about the movie because of this and focuses on the presentation for home theater, which hasn't been discussed nearly as much. I agree with this approach. In fact, when I used to do movie reviews for Secrets and Sound and Vision I barely mentioned anything about the movie since there are already so many reviews. I would instead focus on the technical aspects of the presentation, which I feel WAY more qualified to discuss. Movies are so subjective anyways, one mans trash is another man's treasure.

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post #13068 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 11:28 AM
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Great for other PJ Members. A hint for TV Panel users. Different climate, and results for each. Each method has it's positives and negatives.

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post #13069 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
He is reviewing a movie that has already been discussed ad nauseum from reviewers already though. If you want to read about the movie itself you can pick from literally hundreds of reviews on RT. Ralph doesn't go into a lot of detail about the movie because of this and focuses on the presentation for home theater, which hasn't been discussed nearly as much. I agree with this approach. In fact, when I used to do movie reviews for Secrets and Sound and Vision I barely mentioned anything about the movie since there are already so many reviews. I would instead focus on the technical aspects of the presentation, which I feel WAY more qualified to discuss. Movies are so subjective anyways, one mans trash is another man's treasure.
Gotcha, I did not know he is deliberately leaving that part out in his reviews... makes a lot more sense now.

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post #13070 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
He is reviewing a movie that has already been discussed ad nauseum from reviewers already though. If you want to read about the movie itself you can pick from literally hundreds of reviews on RT. Ralph doesn't go into a lot of detail about the movie because of this and focuses on the presentation for home theater, which hasn't been discussed nearly as much. I agree with this approach. In fact, when I used to do movie reviews for Secrets and Sound and Vision I barely mentioned anything about the movie since there are already so many reviews. I would instead focus on the technical aspects of the presentation, which I feel WAY more qualified to discuss. Movies are so subjective anyways, one mans trash is another man's treasure.
I just focus on the audio/video portion of his reviews and find they line up with my opinion very accurately. If I see a 100 for audio or video, I can blind buy with confidence.
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Originally Posted by b0rnarian View Post
I take his reviews not with a grain of salt but with a full bottle of it; both PQ and movie wise. To me they are pretty off as I don't think his projector can match the HDR goodness of my KS9800 and also b/c half the movie review is usually about his experience of how and where he ended up watching the movie and not about the movie itself. Also, he barely gets into the story, characters and the depth of it all - my personal opinion but I think other editors do a much more commendable job. IE: HiDef Digest guys.

In addition, there's at least 3-4 positive reviews of the UHD on this thread, maybe 2-3 pages back.
Assuming his projector doesn't have a tone mapper.

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post #13072 of 18926 Old 02-06-2017, 05:37 PM
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4k/hdr television is about to get a huge boost with moving forward. A vote by the FCC that is expected to pass with ATSC 3.0 in the usa is taking place February 23rd.


http://advanced-television.com/2017/...r-by-year-end/
Thanks for the link Ray. Hopefully things will improve as the HD lite that is served all the time on TWC here in So.Cal (Spectrum now) is maddening. Macro blocking for many years as they choke the pipeline into our homes.
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post #13073 of 18926 Old 02-07-2017, 02:47 AM
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I'm wondering if the new Sony UHD player will have the Sony Ultra app. That way I can redeem Sony digital codes and get HDR. May be the only way to see 4K HDR unless you have a Sony 4K TV.

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post #13074 of 18926 Old 02-07-2017, 04:36 AM
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I'm wondering if the new Sony UHD player will have the Sony Ultra app. That way I can redeem Sony digital codes and get HDR. May be the only way to see 4K HDR unless you have a Sony 4K TV.

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I would say yes. I know their earlier streaming devices had it built in. At first, it only worked if you had a Sony TV, but they later opened it up so it worked for everyone.

Reading your post brought me back to the dark place of early 4K. The Sony streaming device was the only way to get 4K, and it wasn't even a streaming device. You had to download the entire 4K movie!
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Slightly off topic but not completely...because everyone has been curious how Dolby Vision will pass through devices if at all..

Denon and Marantz has announced that some of their receivers are being updated for Dolby Vision and HLG. unfortunately, it is only their current models.


The D + M Group will publish selected for AV receivers and preamplifiers their brands Denon and Marantz, a firmware update that allows the devices, metadata according to the HDR specifications "Dolby Vision" and "HLG" (Hybrid Log Gamma ). However, this update is only available for the current Denon models AVR-X1300W, AVR-X2300W, AVR-X3300W, AVR-X4300H and AVR-X6300H as well as the current Marantz models NR1607, SR5011, SR6011, SR7011 and AV7703. In addition, D + M intends to make it available only at the end of 2017 or early 2018; Extensive tests are planned.




https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...e-3614979.html
Just caught this bit of news. DV support was my main reason for holding off on upgrading my 4311 to a X4300H or X6300H. If they won't be releasing the FW update until end of 2017 at the earliest, it tells me that Denon should have newer models out by then. I'm going to wait and see what the eventual X4400H or X6400H have to offer.
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post #13076 of 18926 Old 02-07-2017, 07:10 AM
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I would say yes. I know their earlier streaming devices had it built in. At first, it only worked if you had a Sony TV, but they later opened it up so it worked for everyone.

Reading your post brought me back to the dark place of early 4K. The Sony streaming device was the only way to get 4K, and it wasn't even a streaming device. You had to download the entire 4K movie!
The Sony Ultra app was only released last year. And only on the Sony UHD TVs with Android. Hopefully the Sony UHD BD player will also have it.

You can redeem the Sony UHD UV codes in the SOny Ultra app or from the Sony pictures store online. Both will give you the UHD UV streaming rights and the ability to stream in UHD/HDR from the Sony Ultra app.

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post #13077 of 18926 Old 02-07-2017, 07:13 AM
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The Sony Ultra app was only released last year. And only on the Sony UHD TVs with Android. Hopefully the Sony UHD BD player will also have it.

You can redeem the Sony UHD UV codes in the SOny Ultra app or from the Sony pictures store online. Both will give you the UHD UV streaming rights and the ability to stream in UHD/HDR from the Sony Ultra app.
They had something similar in 2014. It was a Sony store for UHD movies that was built into their original round streaming 4K device.
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post #13078 of 18926 Old 02-07-2017, 07:27 AM
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Jack reacher is one of the worst Uhd Movies i seen regarding picture quality.
Hdr really poor n the wide Colour gammut Seems they forgot lol
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post #13079 of 18926 Old 02-07-2017, 08:08 AM
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I pre-ordered John Wick from BestBuy and got an email this morning telling me it was out of stock at the location I chose for store pick up. I checked other stores availability and it's not available in any store within 250 miles. And if you go to order it on BB site it says pre order available 2/13. WTF, anyone else pre order from BB and run into this?


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post #13080 of 18926 Old 02-07-2017, 08:50 AM
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I pre-ordered John Wick from BestBuy and got an email this morning telling me it was out of stock at the location I chose for store pick up. I checked other stores availability and it's not available in any store within 250 miles. And if you go to order it on BB site it says pre order available 2/13. WTF, anyone else pre order from BB and run into this?


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It won't show in-stock until 2/13. Even if they get it earlier they aren't allowed to sell it in store until 2/13.
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I'm wondering if the new Sony UHD player will have the Sony Ultra app. That way I can redeem Sony digital codes and get HDR. May be the only way to see 4K HDR unless you have a Sony 4K TV.

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This has been a question many have had (including myself) Over in the UBP thread it has not been confirmed for the UBP-X800. It is rumored to be included in the UBP-X1000 along with support for USB 3.0 hard drive for downloading as many don't have the required 20-25Mbps download speed for streaming.
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