This is not Dolby related it is Netflix crappy show related. They put artificial grain to look cool, but it's disgusting.

Watch the season 3 of Chef Table in DV. It is amazing, no noise, nothing.

 

Source? I'm curious. The noise on some 4k/HDR content (even outside of Netflix) is bugging the hell out of me.

 

Agreed!

Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk

 

Someone needs to start an online petition to stop Netflix from ruining their own shows! I can't for the life of me understand how a multi billion dollar company thinikss that the encodes of most of their shows in HDR is remotely acceptable! Complete trash.

That ridiculous artificial noise makes the video look like it's 480p in many places.

4K dolby Vision can look phenomenal on netflix with some great examples like Chefs Table season 3, Chefs table france, and Abstract.

The reason for 4K and HDR is to mimic reality. Stop trying to be edgy or "stylistic" by adding "FAKE" digital grain that completely ruins the point of 4K and HDR. Watching Jessica Jones in Dolby Vision on my 65" OLED is like me taking a nice 4K picture and then dumping a bucket of honey over my screen and then throwing another bucket of sand over the whole thing. Complete ****.

 

While there is added digital grain, it doesn't look bad from viewing distance. If you really notice it from viewing distance, chances are that it is either exaggerated in DV or the panel itself. It's not that bad in HDR10.


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Netflix:
Great: Chef's Table and Marco Polo come in great.
Crappy: Luke Cage, Santa Clarita Diet, Jessica Jones, The OA, and majority of the Dolby Visions.

The problem is not so much the use of a grain filter, though there is no good reason for it. The issue is they are not creating/using a filter meant for HDR. I suspect what is happening is they are not ensuring the grain filter applies colors/luminescence that doesn't match and/or they are applying the grain AFTER the HDR grading, so the noise itself is being boosted into HDR.

 

Was thinking the exact same thing. The digital noise BEFORE HDR seemed like it was more "natural" and when they added HDR it suddenly seemed like it was "on top" of the image and it wrecked havoc on preceived detail and resolution. I do sit pretty damn close to my 65" OLED, so I'm guessing it's much more bothersome to people who sit within 6 feet of their set.

 

Noise not only looks horrible, but compresses poorly too, so it actually costs bitrate budget and thus image quality even in the areas of the image that aren't affected by noise!

good posts Mr Quebecois.

 

Modern video codecs allows synthetic noise generation post decoder just because of that.

Then the lossy encoder can spend its bits wisely on a clean video, and the desired pseudo-random grain are added after decode.

-k

 

The noise issue is mostly the fault of Netflix. As RLBURNSIDE pointed out, movies with noise are harder to compress, and bad compression will make noise worse and introduce weird artifacts. So we have these shows that have artificial grain (these 4k shows are all shot 100% 4k digital, so the grain is added in as fake grain), 4k and also hdr all compressed in a bit rate that's arguably 1/3rd the size it needs to be.

 

I do agree that some of the grain is added in post but I'm not sure they are grain free when shot considering how dark these shows are with no lighting other than distant or dim ambient lighting.
Half the scenes look like they were shot at ISO6400 or more.
But they can definitely do something about the colour noise which seems rampant in Luke Cage!


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The OP should not be seeing grain on any of the VUDU Dolby Vision movies except for Bateman v Superman, Man of Steel and Watchmen (Zach Snyder movies). Everest, In the Heart of the Sea, The Lego Movie, Sully, Pacific Rim, Oblivion, Tarzan, The Great Gatsby, Lucy, Girl on the Train, and Warcraft all have pristine looks and are sharp. Mad Max and Suicide Squad have a hint of grain but are not bad...

 

I was seeing a lot of the noise described here when I first started viewing HDR on my Epson 5040 projector. Then I completely turned off "image enhancement" and the noise disappeared. I suspect that the image enhancement/edge detection algorithms don't know what to do with the additional color information and incorrectly process it. Don't need image enhancement anyway for 4K content.


You all should check your display device settings to see if there is some kind of image enhancement setting that can be disabled. Usually the default is 'on' at some medium level.

 

The Marvell shows are so bad that even this tweak won't help.

But that's a good tips for other stuffs

 

I know what you mean. I was watching Iron Fist and the background had so many speckles and they almost seemed to flash, that it was driving me up the wall. At least the skin tones didn't look so bad, but it made me wonder if someone sensitive enough might get seizures! The grain was insane. (oled55e6p)

 

It's an Epson 5040UBE projector on a 135" screen. Believe me, if there's grain I'll see it.


Since posting that I finally started being able to stream full bitrate UHD from Netflix. Now the grain in Iron Fist is even less apparent. Artificial grain plays hell with upscalers. Was only getting 1080p/HDR before. Now getting true 4K/HDR stream.

 

Solution?

Read all the posts in this thread but don't see a solution. Is there one on the TV side or is it strictly in the hands of the content provider? This graininess is really pissing me off. Walking Dead is what made me search the issue but I too have noticed it on Iron Fist and Jessica Jones.

As I was typing this...I decreased "Sharpness" from 20 to 0. At first glance the picture looks significantly better with graininess gone. Need to watch more however, not 100% sure.

65" Samsung KDS8500

 

I've got the same issue with the original 4K HDR Bluray disc of "Batman versus Superman".

Proudly, I demonstrated the beautiful picture of the professionally calibrated LG OLED65E6V to my friends and family. But this was for a short time when I started the movie Batman versus Superman. First, I thought the screen was defect, but testing other material I didn't see the grainy picture.





Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-N910C met Tapatalk

 

Batman Vs. Superman is supposed to be grainy. This is the look they were going for.

It was shot on Super 35mm and pushed one or two stops to accentuate the grain, i.e. the film was underexposed by half or a quarter of the light and then developed for twice or four times as long.

It's intentional. There was a recent interview with Larry Fong, the cinematographer for this movie, and he said as much. He also shot a lot of Zach Snyder's other movies and used similar techniques.

Don't worry. Your system is fine

 

Yeah, this is becoming a thing that's really common, and I agree that it tends to happen more with Dolby Vision movies (though that could be purely coincidental). Since getting an Apple TV 4K and watching a lot of 4K HDR/DV content, it can be really hit and miss. I watched IT last night, and it was quite noisy. Interstellar as well is a SUPER noisy/grainy film, but the transfer is getting stellar reviews so I assume it's on purpose?

Then I'll watch Ghost in the Shell, another 4K/DV film on iTunes, and it's 100% stunning, couldn't look better.

Has anyone watched Blade Runner 2049 on iTunes 4K/DV? I want to pick it up, but I can't find impressions on the transfer quality.

 

Hello,

I own a Sony A1 OLED alongside an Oppo 203 Ultra Bluray Player.

Recently I tested Ultra HD Blurays in HDR such as the Harry Potter or the old Spiderman movies. A lot of scenes were showing extreme noise and I was thinking that the 4K upscale of an old movie was the culprit for this.

But I started to test some settings on my Oppo and when I turned off HDR or set it to "Strip Metadata", the picture became much cleaner ... the noise was still visible to a certain extend, but not nearly as aggressive as before. The overall brightness is not lower since I kept [X-Tended Dynamic Range] enabled which gives an HDR-like look but without the noise that is appearing when HDR is actually enabled.

I also watched some newer movies as well for comparison, for example Prometheus. The movie already has a quite clean look with only a tiny amount of noise but again in certain scenes of the movie, the already faint noise is completely gone when I turn off HDR or strip the metadata via the Oppo's settings.

Can anyone attest to that or perhaps even explain why that is?

EDIT:

As of now, it is hard to tell which component is actually causing this behavior so I have made a list and gathered some thoughts for troubleshooting:

Factors I assume relevant for the noise in HDR content:

1. AV Receiver Denon AVD 4300
2. HDMI Cable
3. Ultra Bluray Player Oppo 203
4. Sony A1 OLED TV settings (for Example X-tended Dynamic Range)
5. Sony A1 OLED TV itself
6. HDR issue

And here are my thoughts on narrowing down the issue for each factor and possibly troubleshoot:

1. Bypass AV Receiver by connecting the player directly to TV and test a 4K HDR scene that has a lot of noise
TESTED: connected the Oppo 203 directly to the TV but it did not change the outcome, when displaying HDR content the noise was visible when HDR was active and was reduced when stripping the metadata
2. Use a different HDMI cable to connect the BD player to the TV and test a 4K HDR scene that has a lot of noise
TESTED: also when the Oppo was directly connected to the TV with a different HDMI Cable (on a different HDMI Port) the outcome was still the same: lots of noise when HDR active, reduced when stripping metadata
3. Connect the PC directly to the TV and test a 4K HDR scene that has a lot of noise
TESTED: tested the same content via a PC and PowerDVD 17 Ultra. Also, when the same same HDR content was displayed, the outcome was still the same: when HDR was active, the noise was very pronounced. Unfortunately I wasn't able to strip the metadata so I deactivated the HDR on the TV itself... I doubt this has the same effect so I won't even go there.
4. Test a 4k HDR scene with a lot of noise and change the TVs settings for X-Tendeded Dynamic Range and Contrast
TESTED: When changing the settings of the TV like X-Tendeded Dynamic Range and Contrast, there is no change in terms of noise. The picture will get brighter or darker, but only stripping the metadata will really make a difference for HDR content. Interestingly, Noise reduction will not reduce the HDR noise.
5. Test HDR on a different TV (LG OLED) - see if it also makes a difference when HDR is activated or deactivated
TESTED: Thanks to Nobbygon who owns an LG HDR OLED TV and also an Oppo 203, he was testing HDR movies with HDR set to On and to Strip Metadata and was able to compare the settings. He confirmed that HDR while on will look very noisy/grainy and when stripping metadata, the noise is reduced (about 50%).
6. search the internet for clues, if HDR itself can cause this behavior:

http://vcl.itn.liu.se/publications/2015/EMU15/SGA15_paper.pdf​

http://www.itn.liu.se/mit/research/...arch/computer-graphics-image-processing/real-time-noise-aware-tone-mapping?l=en​

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnar...-cut-4k-blu-ray-review-ive-seen-things-you-people-wouldnt-believe/#1978af9717c2​

As soon as I get to test and verify my above described findings, I will update my post

Best
Gregor

 

I'm experiencing the same issues with picture noise as well.

I'm running an Oppo UDP-203 to an Anthem AVM60 processor then LG OLED55C7T. I first encountered UHD bluray noise when I upgraded my TV to the current LG model. At the time, I was passing the 4K signal through a Marantz SR6008 which I though might have been the culprit as it wasn't HDR certified. I discovered the same thing as adsl-ryoga in the post above; going direct from the Oppo to the TV made no difference compared to passing through the Marantz receiver.

I purchased the Anthem processor as part of a system upgrade and also changed out all the HDMI cables to ensure they were certified at 18Gbps and HDR capable. There was no change in the amount of grain/noise in the picture which was very surprising.

I'm going to try the "strip the metadata" approach as mentioned above and see if that helps.

It is worth mentioning that I have watched some UHD Blu-rays such as Passengers that exhibit no image noise what so ever. This leads me to believe that the noise is 'disk based'. The worst one I've seen so far is the 4K version of Blade Runner (original). The noise in that is horrific.

Looking forward to seeing how this pans out.

Cheers,
Angus.

 

It is worth mentioning that I have watched some UHD Blu-rays such as Passengers that exhibit no image noise what so ever. This leads me to believe that the noise is 'disk based'. The worst one I've seen so far is the 4K version of Blade Runner (original). The noise in that is horrific.

Yeah it is my assumption that HDR is only exaggerating already existing noise. So older movies that already show a certain amount of noise or grain will look even more noisy / grainy when HDR is active. But if the source is already very clean to begin with then HDR won't have a huge impact. For example, Prometheus already looks very clean and only shows just a little bit of noise when HDR is active - this little noise is completely gone when I strip the metadata via my Oppo.

I believe that the UHD Disc contains the original movie as a 4K Upscale / 4K intermediate. This file is probably remastered and reworked to the best possible quality that can be achieved at the time of release and has the same or even better quality than the normal Bluray counterpart. So in terms of noise, the UHD file and the normal Bluray version are not much different. But then there is also the HDR metadata on the UHD Disc which will change the output in terms of brightness and contrast. I believe that this process of changing brightness and contrast via HDR metadata is causing the exaggerated noise based on the Oppo 203's function to show HDR or to strip the metadata. With HDR, one can see extreme noise in for example Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire in certain scenes - but when the metadata is tripped, only the pure movie file will be played back and noise will look less aggressive.

I did not get to do my full testing yet unfortunately due to time constraints - but since you have a different TV (LG OLED) and you also have an Oppo 203 that has the ability to show UHD Blurays either with HDR or stripped metadata: could you do a comparison between HDR active and stripped metadata and see if it has the same effect on your TV?

Thanks and best Gregor

 

This might help, grain may appear a noise

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=14333476&postcount=618

Calibration definitely plays a part, the HDR EOTF seems to be very unforgiving to grain if your luminance curve isn't getting the mid-tones correct - that is, the part of the image which lives between the shadows and the highlights (hence the name). My prior calibrations had the lower part of the curve correct but after about 50% brightness it started to lose a fair bit of luminance until it reached the upper peaks of the highlights, I thoughtI had tons of brightness to spare on the "light cannon" that is the ZD9 so I reckoned I could get away with it. For a while, it was good. Old curveunder the spoiler.

Spoiler

Basically the mid-tones were too dark while the highlights were happily blasting away as they would normally be and I think it meant that there was too big of a difference as to how the grain looked in those respective parts of the image, if that makes sense, allowing through less of the "velvety" organic structure of the grain and more of the out right digitally compressed part of it which lives in the highlights. Plenty of newer films looked amazing but I'd put in something like Crouching Tiger and would be knocked sideways by the grain, not "dancing ants" bad but so intensely "digital" looking that it put me right off.

But with my latest recal (covered here: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=14305881#post14305881) I dipped the gamma and contrast compared to my prior settings and now get a curve that's still holding firm in the lower areas of luminance but which is now much 'fuller' in the mids whilst toning down the extremes of the absolute peak of the signal, now measuring 1750 nits at its brightest rather than 1900. Freshly calibrated curve under the spoiler.

Spoiler

In a nutshell, I think by making sure that the upper mid-tones are properly illuminated it stops the brightest, 'fizziest' part of the grain in the peaks from dominating the softer, more "velvety" grain in the mids, and the two combine beautifully now. That's not to say grain is gone, it's still plentiful in movies like Crouching Tigger and plenty variable from scene to scene, it just doesn't look as electronically false as it did before.

 

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php?p=14333476&postcount=618

Very interesting, thank you! I plan to have a professional calibration performed and will check if it makes a difference in regards of noise in HDR sources.

 

Another helpful link

Why does an older movie occasionally look grainy?

 

Justice League Graininess 4k HDR DV

First let me say I am a newbie, I've used/read AVS Forum(s) in the past but just now created an account so I can reply to this one.

I bought a LG OLED65B7A recently and moved up from a 2015 Samsung that had HDR but the edge lit lighting drove me crazy. Very happy with the LG besides that gray uniformity issue but that is a whole another topic (forum)... anyways, I just watched Justice League via Vudu in 4k DV and man did it suck with the grainy picture quality. Have any of you watched it yet? I had some people over watching it with me and I sat on my phone reading through this forum and even paused the movie twice to try and adjust settings. Others def saw the grainy quality too. By turning down the sharpness and messing with the "super resolution" setting I was able to get it to look a bit better but still unacceptable. If I understand what you all are saying is that it is purposely being added to mask possible/obvious CGI and to blend in what may otherwise look fake? And HDR/DV is making it stand out more? Ugh...

Here is the thing though, some scenes looked absolutely stellar, zero to very little grain and then the next scene was awful. As we (cause now everyone else picked up on since I pointed it out) watched the rest of Justice League, we tried to figure out why some scenes were amazing and why some sucked. At first thought it was only scenes that had a bunch of CGI that showed a bunch of grain but that turned out to be false cause some scenes that had a bunch of CGI were crystal clear, even some dark scenes. I really don't get it. Even within scenes it was changing, like different camera angles, one was clear and next camera angle on the SAME person in the SAME room/lighting was flipping disgusting.

At the end of the movie, I started watching John Wick 2 in 4k DV via Vudu and that blew everyone away. Extremely clear, no graininess even in the low light scenes. What the heck is with Justice League looking SO bad?

I am going to attempt to attach some pictures to show one of the worst scenes (when Batman's aircraft is taking off) VS the very next scene which is clear. Note, the first picture of the full frame, that indeed is 4k DV with full buffered video, and yes, it looks so bad, like it is 480p... that is the only scene that it is to that low extreme.

Also, I messed around with Vudu, and was changing the video quality from 4K DV to just "HDX" (1080p SDR) and sure enough the scene still has graininess but much less noticeable, I think cause it was being "blended" in with pixelation. So like it was mentioned in the forum, I suppose the 4k + HDR/DV makes it stand out more.

Guess my next step is seeing how to properly calibrate my TV or getting it professionally done to see if there is any improvement.

I also just picked up LG's 4k blu-ray player which has DV (and no, I can't afford an Oppo after just breaking the bank with the OLED) but I cannot compare Justice League 4k Blu-ray DV as it is yet to be released.

Oh and the comments on Netflix HDR - oh my do I agree. My Samsung can show HDR Netflix and I remember when they released the first Marvel show in HDR, I though it was freaking awful quality. I think they fixed some stuff since then, cause the newer HDR isn't as bad. With my LG I can watch DV content on Netflix, but I haven't watched much yet since I am way behind from watching so much Olympics coverage.

Oh wait, there is more (haha), I saw some comments on the Walking Dead's graininess - well now, glad I am not the only one who thinks the video quality of that show is nasty, especially on Netflix. If it is being added on purpose, not sure why the heck they would want to make it look that bad? Oh well, still an excellent show.

Anyways, any other suggestions on how to decrease the graininess? Cause it is driving me crazy.

Thanks all!

 

First let me say I am a newbie, I've used/read AVS Forum(s) in the past but just now created an account so I can reply to this one.

I bought a LG OLED65B7A recently and moved up from a 2015 Samsung that had HDR but the edge lit lighting drove me crazy. Very happy with the LG besides that gray uniformity issue but that is a whole another topic (forum)... anyways, I just watched Justice League via Vudu in 4k DV and man did it suck with the grainy picture quality. Have any of you watched it yet? I had some people over watching it with me and I sat on my phone reading through this forum and even paused the movie twice to try and adjust settings. Others def saw the grainy quality too. By turning down the sharpness and messing with the "super resolution" setting I was able to get it to look a bit better but still unacceptable. If I understand what you all are saying is that it is purposely being added to mask possible/obvious CGI and to blend in what may otherwise look fake? And HDR/DV is making it stand out more? Ugh...

Here is the thing though, some scenes looked absolutely stellar, zero to very little grain and then the next scene was awful. As we (cause now everyone else picked up on since I pointed it out) watched the rest of Justice League, we tried to figure out why some scenes were amazing and why some sucked. At first thought it was only scenes that had a bunch of CGI that showed a bunch of grain but that turned out to be false cause some scenes that had a bunch of CGI were crystal clear, even some dark scenes. I really don't get it. Even within scenes it was changing, like different camera angles, one was clear and next camera angle on the SAME person in the SAME room/lighting was flipping disgusting.

At the end of the movie, I started watching John Wick 2 in 4k DV via Vudu and that blew everyone away. Extremely clear, no graininess even in the low light scenes. What the heck is with Justice League looking SO bad?

I am going to attempt to attach some pictures to show one of the worst scenes (when Batman's aircraft is taking off) VS the very next scene which is clear. Note, the first picture of the full frame, that indeed is 4k DV with full buffered video, and yes, it looks so bad, like it is 480p... that is the only scene that it is to that low extreme.

Also, I messed around with Vudu, and was changing the video quality from 4K DV to just "HDX" (1080p SDR) and sure enough the scene still has graininess but much less noticeable, I think cause it was being "blended" in with pixelation. So like it was mentioned in the forum, I suppose the 4k + HDR/DV makes it stand out more.

Guess my next step is seeing how to properly calibrate my TV or getting it professionally done to see if there is any improvement.

I also just picked up LG's 4k blu-ray player which has DV (and no, I can't afford an Oppo after just breaking the bank with the OLED) but I cannot compare Justice League 4k Blu-ray DV as it is yet to be released.

Oh and the comments on Netflix HDR - oh my do I agree. My Samsung can show HDR Netflix and I remember when they released the first Marvel show in HDR, I though it was freaking awful quality. I think they fixed some stuff since then, cause the newer HDR isn't as bad. With my LG I can watch DV content on Netflix, but I haven't watched much yet since I am way behind from watching so much Olympics coverage.

Oh wait, there is more (haha), I saw some comments on the Walking Dead's graininess - well now, glad I am not the only one who thinks the video quality of that show is nasty, especially on Netflix. If it is being added on purpose, not sure why the heck they would want to make it look that bad? Oh well, still an excellent show.

Anyways, any other suggestions on how to decrease the graininess? Cause it is driving me crazy.

Thanks all!

It has nothing to do with blending vfx. The majority of Justice League was shot on 4 perf super 35mm film. All the reshoots and a handful of establishing helicopter shots used the Alexa 65 digital camera, but they added fake grain to those shots to blend in with the rest of the film. If you would like to learn more about how it was filmed, here's an article and a podcast interview with cinematographer Fabian Wagner.

The only way to avoid seeing grain is to not watch Justice League at all. Also avoid any Zack Snyder movie, and most other movies shot on film. Calibration will not diminish grain.

And yes, The Walking Dead is even grainier because it is shot on 16mm film. And the Netflix Marvel shows are shot digitally but intentionally add fake grain to soften the look.

 

The only reason I can give for why Justice League looks grainy in comparison to for example John Wick 2: some scenes of Justice League were shot in 35mm whereas John Wick 2 was shot completely in ARRIRAW (digital).

It seems the new digital cameras can be pushed further in terms of dynamic range without exhibiting extensive noise, but the analogue material shot in 35mm is prone to noise when pushed beyond what it is capable of... then again, Dunkirk was shot in 65mm and it looks great so it's not purely a debate on analog vs digital.

I've yet to see improvements after a TV has been calibrated as suggested by others but I have planned a professional calibration for my set and will publish any updates / improvements here.

 

I posted this in the LG C6 owners thread.

I noticed something in my 2016 C6 with Netflix and Dolby Vision in a pitch black room. Netflix Shows, especially Marvel have been very noisy in HDR. I've read online that this is because they add fake grain. Altered Carbon didn't have any of this - because no fake noise. However, I watched Jessica Jones on my Shield yesterday which has regular HDR10 and to my shock it looked great.

There was no horrible looking noise and black was real black, not a very dark grey. You only notice that in pitch black. I know raised black levels are apparently only over HDMI but they are definitely there on Netflix too for me.

I think DV is great if you have ambient light in the room. HDR is far too dark otherwise but in a pitch black room it boosts brightness way too much. And it makes sense - HDR10 is supposed to be for pitch black with no dynamic adjustments.

TL;DR - HDR looks way better on an LG OLED than DV in a pitch black room.

 

It is not just 4K HDR/Dolby Vision that suffer with excessive dark area noise on 2016 LG B/C/E/G6 OLEDs, the Blu-ray’s of Lost and Game of Thrones are also pretty bad to watch. I found that actually having the lights on was the only way to counter act this, there are no settings tweaks, or calibration changes that can alleviate this issue with the 2016 models. I have an E6 and commented in the UHD Crouching Tiger and Close Encounters threads over at Bluray forums.

 

LG OLEDs

Mine is better. On top of that, the 2016s have much worse issues... colors for one that cannot compete with either the 2017s or 2018s unless you use a 3D LUT Box (SDR only). Both the 2017 and 2018s are also superior to the 2016s with HDR and DV content.

 

i seem to have an enormous amount of noise on my 65b6 as well. judder too but not as bad as noise.


i just got myself a great sony x700 4k player which is hooked up to my new sony dn1080 to my tv. i was a bit disappointed to find that there are several scenes that show a great deal of noise or fuzzyness to some areas of a specific shot when watching The Last Jedi. is this normal? i would think getting the highest quality of tv/player/media would reduce this almost to nil, but no dice! could someone please please help! i'm wondering if this is a defect of the tv itself. thank you!

 

Half of The Last Jedi is shot on film, and the digital half has some added grain to match the film. It is normal and not a defect of the TV.