HDR10+ Debuts on Amazon Prime Video & Samsung 2017 UHD TVs - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 07:01 AM
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These format wars and ever-changing specifications are insulting and confusing to the average consumer. I am glad that I am not an early-adopter and I am still hesitant to to invest $5k+ in a new TV, AVR and UHD player. Yes, I am amazed when I see HDR demos. Until ATSC 3.0 is finalized, including which flavor of HDR they will use, I just don't know if you can future-proof right now. No, I don't watch ota but do watch a lot of sports and won't the ATSC standard drive what will be used for that programming?

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post #32 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b0rnarian View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
You can't use the same grading for both commercial cinema and TVs. HDR in movie theaters comes nowhere close to 1000 nits. Dolby Cinemas are very rare and far between (although more are coming). If HDR goes mainstream in commercial cinema, will it all be Dolby Vision? There's nothing I've seen that says that's the case.
Will HDR10 ever make it to commercial cinema? There's nothing I've seen that says that's the case
I actually speculated Samsung was creating their own emissive theater screens just so they could create an HDR10+ theatrical channel: Samsung is building 4K LED movie theater screens
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post #33 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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[quote=puddy77;52381705]
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Originally Posted by b0rnarian View Post

I actually speculated Samsung was creating their own emissive theater screens just so they could create an HDR10+ theatrical channel: Samsung is building 4K LED movie theater screens
Seems totally possible, and remember now with JBL & Crown under Harman, Samsung has an entity that already does big business in commercial cinema. Like IMAX, Samsung can sell a total package.

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post #34 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post
Well, now you've seen someone speculate it might, right here on AVS Forum. Truly, I have no idea. Maybe Dolby will dominate. maybe Technicolor will own that. Maybe something else. Maybe there's room for everything.

Certainly could go this way
When HDR10 was already rolling out discs and DV was just getting started, I thought it would be an up-hill battle for DV; but the tables have turned. DV def. made a believer out of me, even though its a paid software, its right up there with HDR10. Which goes to show you, ppl will always pay for better quality. So who knows, maybe, just maybe they'll co-exist. I personally would prefer only one survived and there'd be no benchmark for quality. Co-incidentally, competition is always a good thing.
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post #35 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
considering on the audio side uncompressed PCM, Dolby, and DTS all exist side by side I think it's fair to guess that everyone's going to be a winner.
The optimistic view, how refreshing, I like that !

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post #36 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 08:21 AM
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Wait wait hdr20+ 30+ Dolby super vision just keep feeding at the endless bowl of upgraditis what a shill game by the manufacturers to keep everyone addicted to their self made format wars. Or maybe just alternative facts.
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post #37 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 08:29 AM
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Regardless of how widespread HDR10+ becomes on streaming services, my 2016 Samsung TV just got better, and I'm grateful for it.
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post #38 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 08:51 AM
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As someone who still prefers playback via disks, my 2015 TV still supports the current UHD Blu-ray specs. Sure, streaming might be a little bit of an issue, but oh well.

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post #39 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
DV would nowhere be dead even if this takes off.

All studios grade theatrically for Dolby Vision. One of the primary features of Dolby Vision isn't on our consumer side, it's on the producer side - The ability to easily process one grade for multiple delivery methods - i.e. Theatrical and home releases.
Theater DV and home DV are 2 different grades done completely separately. An hdr colorist on the forums that has worked on dolby vision and hdr grading confirmed this for us. His name is EvLee on the forums.

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post #40 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 09:03 AM
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I think hdr10+ will be used mostly with streaming. On the disc side, and Fox will go dynamic hdr10 but not sure of the others. Dynamic hdr10 supposedly won't have hardware support until 2018.

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post #41 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
I think hdr10+ will be used mostly with streaming. On the disc side, and Fox will go dynamic hdr10 but not sure of the others. Dynamic hdr10 supposedly won't have hardware support until 2018.

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Some interesting info on this: https://cepro.ehmedia.co/webinar-registration11706805

Technical Director of HDMI LA says HDMI 2.1 can be achieved via firmware update as long as the HDMI chipset is upgradeable. 2015 Samsung owners said they received an update from 2.0 to 2.0a, so their chipset was upgradeable. Who knows if that's the case for the 2016 TVs, but it's certainly not out of the question.
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post #42 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray0414 View Post
Theater DV and home DV are 2 different grades done completely separately. An hdr colorist on the forums that has worked on dolby vision and hdr grading confirmed this for us. His name is EvLee on the forums.

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everything i've read from this forum and browsing topics he's posted on has stated the same:

Master graded on dolby vision monitor at 4,000 nit with trim passes for different delivery methods
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post #43 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lineproduct View Post
Some interesting info on this: https://cepro.ehmedia.co/webinar-registration11706805

Technical Director of HDMI LA says HDMI 2.1 can be achieved via firmware update as long as the HDMI chipset is upgradeable. 2015 Samsung owners said they received an update from 2.0 to 2.0a, so their chipset was upgradeable. Who knows if that's the case for the 2016 TVs, but it's certainly not out of the question.
2.1 requires significantly more bandwidth than 2.0 so unfortunately I doubt it's possible.

How much more data do you really need to add some tiny amount of numbers to each frame?
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post #44 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by FullyArray View Post
2.1 requires significantly more bandwidth than 2.0 so unfortunately I doubt it's possible.

How much more data do you really need to add some tiny amount of numbers to each frame?
Not very technical but I hear for 2.1 you'll be required to have 48Mbs HDMI cables as opposed to 18Mbs. That's a lot of data passing through.

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post #45 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
everything i've read from this forum and browsing topics he's posted on has stated the same:

Master graded on dolby vision monitor at 4,000 nit with trim passes for different delivery methods
My source for saying that Dolby Cinema and home grades being completely separate processes does not come from EvLee, but a Dolby director. But here's a post of EvLee's explaining:

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvLee View Post
It's the other way around actually. Dolby started by developing a system for the home environment and then tried to extend that workflow to include theatrical as well. What you have described (the single master solution) is the sales pitch they made, but it hasn't worked out that way. It was a fantastic ideal to sell to studio executives (you only have to master once? hooray!), but there are some fundamental realities of post-production that prevented it from ever having a chance of encapsulating both environments. The only thing Dolby Cinema currently has in common with Dolby Vision is the brand and the EOTF. None of the metadata or color management that you get with Dolby Vision at home exists in either theatrical exhibition or during its mastering process. That all still needs to be created once you get to the Dolby Vision home master, and more than likely the color grade will also need to be adjusted to fully utilize the extra highlight range available at home. So there is plenty of additional effort and cost involved.
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post #46 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by FullyArray View Post
2.1 requires significantly more bandwidth than 2.0 so unfortunately I doubt it's possible.

How much more data do you really need to add some tiny amount of numbers to each frame?
Keep in mind that additional HDR support is only one of the improvements HDMI 2.1 will bring...it will also bring enough headroom for DTS-X, Atmos, DTS-HD, et al via ARC as well, not to mention 8K video.

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post #47 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 10:13 AM
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Here's what I don't get about HDR10+ and the HDMI 2.1 requirement. If we can assume HDR10+ doesn't take much if any more bandwidth than Dolby Vision, and DV is fine with working over 2.0a, then we know it's not a bandwidth issue. You certainly don't need 48Mbps headroom to add a bit of metadata.

So it must be a processor requirement then right? But that can't be true either since we know 2016 UHD Samsung TV's will be updated and can apparently process it just fine. Someone explain this to me.

I would love to find out HDMI 2.0a can be updated to receive HDR10+. If Samsung wants to get the leg up on DV what better way than to enable it for a boatload of existing TVs.

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post #48 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 10:22 AM
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2.1 requires significantly more bandwidth than 2.0 so unfortunately I doubt it's possible.

How much more data do you really need to add some tiny amount of numbers to each frame?
If the Technical Director of HDMI LA says it's possible, then there's zero reason to doubt him. Now the only question that remains is if the HDMI chipset on the Samsung TVs is upgradeable.
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post #49 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 10:24 AM
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Not very technical but I hear for 2.1 you'll be required to have 48Mbs HDMI cables as opposed to 18Mbs. That's a lot of data passing through.
You don't need 48 Gbps cables for every feature.

Quote:
Dynamic HDR

Q: Does this Dynamic HDR require the new 48G Cable?

A: No, but it will be necessary to enable 8K video with HDR

Q: Does the specification support the various HDR solutions?

A: Yes it supports various static and dynamic HDR solutions in the market

Q: Is this accessible via a firmware upgrade?

A: Manufacturers will be implementing this in various ways
http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_1/index.aspx
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post #50 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 10:28 AM
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Also, apparently Samsung has said that some 4K blu ray players currently on the market can be updated to support HDR10+.

Quote:
Samsung has told FlatpanelsHD in the past that it believes it may even be possible to update some existing disc players in the market with HDR10+ but no further information has been provided to us since the comments at CES 2017.
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php...&id=1492684962
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post #51 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 11:06 AM
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I'm missing something here -what is the difference here between_HDR10 & HDR10+_ ? Is it just the streaming code?
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post #52 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 11:08 AM
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If Dolby is for lower-tier TVs then HDR+ is for lower-tier TVs?


IMHO All displays will benefit from Dynamic metadata.


This is great news for Samsung owners ,though I feel bad for the JS owners ,Lucky that I got a refund from Samsung for other reasons.

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post #53 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Lineproduct View Post
Some interesting info on this: https://cepro.ehmedia.co/webinar-registration11706805

Technical Director of HDMI LA says HDMI 2.1 can be achieved via firmware update as long as the HDMI chipset is upgradeable. 2015 Samsung owners said they received an update from 2.0 to 2.0a, so their chipset was upgradeable. Who knows if that's the case for the 2016 TVs, but it's certainly not out of the question.
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2.1 requires significantly more bandwidth than 2.0 so unfortunately I doubt it's possible.

How much more data do you really need to add some tiny amount of numbers to each frame?
Thanks for that link, Lineproduct. Just listened to it. The question asked (around the 39 minute point) is if current 2.0/2.0a ports could be upgraded to 2.1 expressly for SMPTE ST.2094 dynamic metadata transmission (which HDR10+ is a part of, 2094-40). And they said it is possible to upgrade just for metadata, but not for the features that require the extra bandwidth like higher framerates and resolution. But as you mentioned, they said it is highly dependent on the manufacturer's current implementation, so it is not a universal yes or no answer. This is what was assumed by a lot of people here on the forums, but it's nice to hear confirmed by an official.
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post #54 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
Thanks for that link, Lineproduct. Just listened to it. The question asked (around the 39 minute point) is if current 2.0/2.0a ports could be upgraded to 2.1 expressly for SMPTE ST.2094 dynamic metadata transmission (which HDR10+ is a part of, 2094-40). And they said it is possible to upgrade just for metadata, but not for the features that require the extra bandwidth like higher framerates and resolution. But as you mentioned, they said it is highly dependent on the manufacturer's current implementation, so it is not a universal yes or no answer. This is what was assumed by a lot of people here on the forums, but it's nice to hear confirmed by an official.
Good news for us Samsung owners. You have to think that since Samsung have been planning for this for a while now, their 2016 and 2017 TVs will likely get dynamic metadata via HDMI at some point.
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post #55 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 11:15 AM
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I Disagree b/c I think its safe to say that Dolby Vision is way ahead of HDR10+ at this point. With their own Discs coming out, and major Hollywood studios backing them up HDR10+ has a lot of catching up to do. Not to mention, they already have a decent line-up of TVs as well as UHD Players (two so far) out. Oh did I mention all the streaming content for DV along with most movies releasing in DV in theater these days? HDR10+ has none of this going on and we don't even know how better the format is as of right now. HDR10+ doesn't have any content out, and most likely won't be produced until the end of this year, no TVs, no UHD player support yet and Samsung's own 2017 TVs won't support HDR10+ in physical media, that's planned for 2018. Who knows, by the time HDR10+ is ready, DV might go free anyways.
This.

Everyone is severely overrating the 'open source' thing that comes with HDR10.

Dolby has a deal in place with, what, 3 or 4 major Hollywood studios that will put out DV discs starting this year.

Dolby is also what filmmakers use to master their films for the Dolby Cinema experience.

All this does, to me, is further reiterate how stubborn Samsung is as a company. They'll take HDR10+, brand it with a fancy new term, and attempt to sell it as this superior HDR format even though it's not (dynamic HDR is still 10-bit).

With Dolby Vision, they can continue to sell the 12-bit color gamut going forward as panels rapidly improve in the color departments.

This isn't HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray.

HDR10 and Dolby Vision are both probably going to co-exist, if not for the entirety of this HDR revolution, for at least the foreseeable future.
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post #56 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 11:19 AM
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I'm missing something here -what is the difference here between_HDR10 & HDR10+_ ? Is it just the streaming code?
The "+" means it is dynamic metadata similar to Dolby Vision. Here's Mark's explanation from his post:
Quote:
With dynamic metadata, the fidelity of HDR content will better reflect the creative intent of the director. That’s because dynamic metadata makes it possible to adjust brightness levels scene-by-scene and even frame-by-frame. The result is a better viewing experience that takes full advantage of an HDR TV’s capabilities.
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post #57 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 11:23 AM
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Will I need a new AV receiver to use HDR10+?? Mine supports hdr10
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post #58 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FullyArray View Post
2.1 requires significantly more bandwidth than 2.0 so unfortunately I doubt it's possible.

How much more data do you really need to add some tiny amount of numbers to each frame?
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0rnarian View Post
Not very technical but I hear for 2.1 you'll be required to have 48Mbs HDMI cables as opposed to 18Mbs. That's a lot of data passing through.
Actually only certain aspects of HDMI 2.1 require the higher bandwidth and HDR "method" is not one of them from what I've read.

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post #59 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 11:41 AM
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http://hometheaterhifi.com/technical...-vision-hdr10/

Quote:
Dolby has been working on this stuff longer than anyone. They’ve been developing this technology since long before anyone even heard the term HDR, around 2003. They practically invented the HDR LED local dimming display for crying out loud! The result: the Dolby Vision system. Dolby Vision is a complete and comprehensive system encompassing tools and standards for monitoring and grading of content, through delivery and transmission, and finally to the end user’s display in their home.

HDR10

So if Dolby has done all the legwork here why is there an alternative on the table at all? Even though we’ve all happily been paying Dolby (in a roundabout way) a couple pennies in licensing each time we hear a movie soundtrack for the past, oh, 50 years or so, some people must have objected and decided to come up with an HDR system which is “free”. Someone is going to throw rotten fruit at me for saying this, but you get what you pay for.

In a nutshell, HDR10 is little more than a collection of HDR related standards, majority of which are cribbed from Dolby Vision anyway, most notably PQ/ST2084! Again I ask: did anyone send Dolby a Thank You card for giving away all their hard work? This is going to come as a shocker to some of you, but there isn’t actually an official standard called HDR10. People just started referring to HDR10 because it’s HDR and 10-bit. You can think of HDR10 as being merely a subset of Dolby Vision, predicated on 10 bit. The KEY differentiator: HDR10 completely omits the playback side of the chain. HDR10 defines NO standards for tone and gamut mapping. None. Nada. In consequence we cannot comprehensively calibrate an HDR10 display (we’ll talk about exactly what you can and cannot do a little later). Write that down, stick it on your fridge, and tell everyone you can. If I could, I would have that on a sandwich board and walk up and down Hollywood Boulevard.

PQ/ST2084 alone does not an HDR system make. What happens when an HDR10 clip mastered to, say, 1000 nits is played on a display capable of 500 nits? Who the heck knows? That’s up to the TV manufacturer and it’s going to be different from manufacturer to manufacturer, probably from model to model as well. HDR10 does not currently have the dynamic frame by frame metadata of Dolby Vision. As such even the best HDR10 displays employing some sort of tone mapping cannot dynamically adjust it from scene to scene. In other words, while peak-brightness scenes may be well served by a generic tone map, anything short of peak will not.

While there is talk of shoehorning something similar to Dolby Vision’s dynamic per-frame metadata in the future, in the interim the best effort to emulate it would be content detection, but that would be a most inelegant approach (does anyone remember all the trouble we had getting DVD players to detect a simple 3-2 cadence?). I can see the marketing rhetoric piling up already, with each manufacturer claiming they do it “better”, but in the end none will be able to claim faithfulness to the mastered material to the extent Dolby Vision can. Some don’t even try and simply clip everything above the display’s native capability. Ouch! Content creators should be scared to death to see their hard work distributed with HDR10: there is no way for anyone at the other end to know if they are seeing all that hard work done in mastering and grading or if they are seeing an aberrant image. Honestly, it’s a wonder anyone so much as farted around with HDR10, let alone went ahead and built/sold TVs last year employing it (without also including the categorically superior Dolby Vision).
Dolby Vision is the GOLD standard for HDR, and is supported by LG, Sony, Visio, and Hensise, along with some form of HDR10 added to their sets.

Samsung/Paramount Studios are completely in on HDR10/10-PLUS. Samsung is the primary backer for this technology and will not be offering DV on their sets

Panasonic/Technicolor are developing there on HDR version (Technicolor-HDR)

Eventually the BDA will make a final decision on the supported HDR formats for Blu-ray and that will be adopted as the industry standard.

Blu-ray Disc Association

The aim of the BDA is to:

Develop Blu-ray Disc specifications
Ensure Blu-ray Disc products are implemented by licensees according to the intent of the specifications
Promote wide adoption of Blu-ray Disc formats
Provide useful information to those who are interested in supporting Blu-ray Disc formats

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post #60 of 293 Old 04-20-2017, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Lineproduct View Post
Good news for us Samsung owners. You have to think that since Samsung have been planning for this for a while now, their 2016 and 2017 TVs will likely get dynamic metadata via HDMI at some point.
That's what I hope will happen, but we're at the mercy of Samsung and whether or not they want to push you into buying a new TV from their latest lineup. Keeping my fingers crossed.
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