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post #91 of 138 Old 04-20-2017, 04:49 PM
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HDR 10+ might not actually be a bad thing since it's an open standard.

But the big question that remains is who else picks this up? Are Sony, LG, etc. planning on updating their 2016/2017 models with HDR10+? Surely if a TV is capable of processing Dolby Vision, HDR10+ should be easy enough. But will they?
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post #92 of 138 Old 04-20-2017, 06:09 PM
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HDR10+ Debuts on Amazon Prime Video & Samsung 2017 UHD TVs

Quote:
Originally Posted by balboarules View Post
Ok, so my Samsung is a 2015 model, it was sold in 2016 though as well.. Samsung promised it was future proof with the detachable 4 HDMI ports.. Any word on whether or not they will be keeping their word and making 2.1 upgrades available for all SUHD sets? I am not getting sucked into this buy a new tv every 2-3 years crap, I have UHD, I have 4K, and now they are going to change it again?? They do not broadcast 4K yet, and there is a chance my 4K set is out of date..


I totally hear you, part of me wants to tell the OE manufacturers to pound sand until they get their collective ACT together , let's list them:
-HDR
-HDCP
-HDMI
-etc

And so it goes, if we let them


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post #93 of 138 Old 04-20-2017, 08:59 PM
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HDR10+ Debuts on Amazon Prime Video & Samsung 2017 UHD TVs

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Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post
I believe if Dolby can get at least two-thirds of the world's cinemas to upgrade to Dolby Vision, they may be able to force the BDA to make DV mandatory along with HDR10. As little as each individual DV license may cost a manufacturer, we need to keep in mind that the profit margins for TVs sold in the US, Canada, the UK and Europe are shrinking and continue to do so...even for OLEDs. Right now, and especially with a software solution, Dolby Vision offers manufacturers a "pret-a-porter" formula for their devices...but at a cost. On the other hand, the HDR10 option requires that each manufacturer have in-house talent to develop and implement their own interpretation of HDR10, and some may not want (or may not have the resources) to deal with that.



In the end, I think each of the two competing standards will dominate in the arena (cinemas versus displays) where the manufacturers can get the most bang for their buck. Before we bury either standard, let's keep in mind that even after all these years some manufacturers still refuse to pay the licensing fees to enable support for certain audio formats on their devices. If this was about what's best for the consumer, things would be radically different.


They don't need the BDA to do anything. They can just offer incentives for the studios to use DV and that's that. You will always have baseline hdr10 no matter what anyway. I think too many are looking at this as DV vs HDR10 when it really is Dolby vs the studios. It's up to Dolby to make their solution appealing enough that it gets used. Hdr10 is mandatory, sure hdr10+ isn't but that requires new hdmi ports anyhow so it probably won't make much impact on disc. At least not for a long time into the future.
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post #94 of 138 Old 04-20-2017, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
HDR 10+ might not actually be a bad thing since it's an open standard.



But the big question that remains is who else picks this up? Are Sony, LG, etc. planning on updating their 2016/2017 models with HDR10+? Surely if a TV is capable of processing Dolby Vision, HDR10+ should be easy enough. But will they?


Likely not until hdmi 2.1

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post #95 of 138 Old 04-20-2017, 11:32 PM
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This is a disaster, I wanted to make the jump to 4k this year, but with this I have no idea what to do.


For the first time since I bought tvs, I will not buy Samsung, for not offering DV and now this HDR + mess





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post #96 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexanderg823 View Post
HDR 10+ might not actually be a bad thing since it's an open standard.

But the big question that remains is who else picks this up? Are Sony, LG, etc. planning on updating their 2016/2017 models with HDR10+? Surely if a TV is capable of processing Dolby Vision, HDR10+ should be easy enough. But will they?
If Amazon is going with HDR10+ as their standard, I think all of the manufacturers will be forced to adopt it. If it's not possible with a firmware update, we might have to wait until HDMI 2.1 in 2018.

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post #97 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 06:04 AM
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SOUND AND VISION MAGAZINE ARTICLE ON HDMI 2.1:

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...0tGQ8HBHUPs.97
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post #98 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vegout View Post
If Amazon is going with HDR10+ as their standard, I think all of the manufacturers will be forced to adopt it. If it's not possible with a firmware update, we might have to wait until HDMI 2.1 in 2018.
Assuming they are using the same HDMI chipset as the Samsung 2016 and 2017 TVs, the Sony and LG TVs should be able to support HDR10+ from any streaming source with just a firmware update.

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post #99 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 06:09 AM
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The beauty of HDR10+ which hasn't been mentioned so far yet is that it's backwards-compatible with HDR10. You don't need to have both HDR10+ and HDR10. TVs which only understand HDR10 get the HDR10 without the additional dynamic metadata features, and everyone's a winner.
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post #100 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 06:12 AM
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A big mess is right. I wanted to jump in 4k OLED this year as well but at this point I will wait. My 6 year old XBR-55HX929 still looks perfect to me for a 1080p display.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Black l Dragon View Post
This is a disaster, I wanted to make the jump to 4k this year, but with this I have no idea what to do.


For the first time since I bought tvs, I will not buy Samsung, for not offering DV and now this HDR + mess





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post #101 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by akadennis View Post
A big mess is right. I wanted to jump in 4k OLED this year as well but at this point I will wait. My 6 year old XBR-55HX929 still looks perfect to me for a 1080p display.
That is the real deal, if it looks perfect to you ,why go through the expense and bother ?

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post #102 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
The beauty of HDR10+ which hasn't been mentioned so far yet is that it's backwards-compatible with HDR10. You don't need to have both HDR10+ and HDR10. TVs which only understand HDR10 get the HDR10 without the additional dynamic metadata features, and everyone's a winner.
I can't win. I won't be able to watch any HDR10+ source without constantly thinking about the missing metadata!
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post #103 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 07:17 AM
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I can't win. I won't be able to watch any HDR10+ source without constantly thinking about the missing metadata!
There is always Prozac !

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post #104 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FullyArray View Post
2.1 requires significantly more bandwidth than 2.0 so unfortunately I doubt it's possible.

How much more data do you really need to add some tiny amount of numbers to each frame?
What's more insane, is DV manages to do the same thing as HDR10+ using the bandwidth available on just HDMI 1.4.

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post #105 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
HDR10 is evolving. The new HDR10+ standard adds dynamic metadata to the HDR mix and is an open standard. Will it offer picture comparable to Dolby Vision? Click the link to read more: HDR10+ Coming to Amazon Prime Video and 2016 + 2017 Samsung UHD TVs
Mark,

Someone mentions it above that it is, but I wondered if you could confirm. For those of us fools that jumped on the bandwagon too soon, is HDR10+ fully compatible with HDR10? If Netflix, and other streaming services start adopting HDR10+ as their streaming protocols, will us poor souls with 2015 models such as my XBR65X930C be able to still watching the HDR10 stream if our TV's aren't upgraded to read HDR10+?

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post #106 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by goksucats View Post
Mark,

Someone mentions it above that it is, but I wondered if you could confirm. For those of us fools that jumped on the bandwagon too soon, is HDR10+ fully compatible with HDR10? If Netflix, and other streaming services start adopting HDR10+ as their streaming protocols, will us poor souls with 2015 models such as my XBR65X930C be able to still watching the HDR10 stream if our TV's aren't upgraded to read HDR10+?
Yes, HDR10+ dynamic metadata is in addition to HDR10 static metadata. So the HDR10 "base" will still be there for current TVs to use. I get that from this SMPTE paper (page 27):
Quote:
Metadata for Proposed Technology: The proposed technology, beside metadata from SMPT ST 2086, uses the following metadata: APL-based peak luminance characteristics of the mastering and the target monitors, and Scene-wise maximum of the color components {R,G,B}, Scene-wise average of maximum of color component values {R,G,B}, and Scene-wise area of the brightest pixels from HDR contents.
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post #107 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by b0rnarian View Post

The better PQ one?
Not always

if you recall


VHS vs Beta

HD DVD vs Blu ray

The better format lost in both cases

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post #108 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
I totally hear you, part of me wants to tell the OE manufacturers to pound sand until they get their collective ACT together , let's list them:
-HDR
-HDCP
-HDMI
-etc

And so it goes, if we let them


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And you realize that some of this works to keep you in the market for a new panel consistently?

The Tv manufacturers could never stay in business ..if in general...people keep TV's as long as they generally did 20 years ago

I think the profit margins ,these days, are paper thin in an already flooded market

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post #109 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 08:31 AM
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List of Theatrical Releases in Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos for 2017

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/cinema/t...-releases.html

Studio's that have selected Dolby’s Dolby Vision and Atmos for use in its home video releases. It did not say whether that would be for its UHD Blu-ray discs or the content it licenses to OTT services – or both. (Updated March 2017)

Lionsgate, Sony Pictures, Warner Brothers, Universal, MGM, Marvel Studios, Disney/Pixar and 20th Century Fox

TV Manufactures to support Dolby Vision along with HDR10

LG, Visio, TCL (LCD), Loewe (OLED), Hisense, Sony, Skyworth (OLED)

Dolby added that 4 streaming services are currently offering content in Dolby Vision or have announced plans to do so. These include Amazon Video, Netflix, and Vudu. We are not sure who the fourth is? (Hulu)


SO the momentum is growing for Dolby Vision, just wonder how long Panasonic (Technicolor-HDR) and Samsung (HDR10+) are going to hold out?
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post #110 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 08:32 AM
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Seems like the UHD+HDR cycle will never end. If a new technology is going to be introduced every year, its going to make it harder for future consumers to want to buy into 4k if they think their new expensive TV will become obsolete with new tech every year. Next thing were going to have multiple version of the same 4k Blu ray with different specs, confusing consumers even more.
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post #111 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goksucats View Post
What's more insane, is DV manages to do the same thing as HDR10+ using the bandwidth available on just HDMI 1.4.
Which is why I don't believe HDMI 2.1 is actually necessary to support HDR10+. Cmon Samsung, let's get this added to 2.0c.
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post #112 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Lineproduct View Post
The 2016 LG TVs don't support YouTube HDR. They may be getting HLG, but they don't currently support it.

Neither the 2016 or 2017 support HDR10+.
The 2016 LG G6P supports YouTube HDR.

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post #113 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 11:17 AM
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Will Disney support HDR10+? They have a close relationship with Dolby and have a direct contribution in Dolby Vision development, and that's the tone mapping algorithm.

Can Samsung make it a mandate through SMPTE and the BDA similarly too HDR10 static?

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post #114 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptinCrunch View Post
List of Theatrical Releases in Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos for 2017

SO the momentum is growing for Dolby Vision
One day after the launch of the upgraded HDR10 system and it's happening already. This isn't yet another dolby vision advocacy thread. We don't need every single thread about HDR to be dragged down that road thankyou.
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post #115 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 2pacalypsenow View Post
Seems like the UHD+HDR cycle will never end.
I don't see any basis for saying that at all? This is a one-off change. Static metadata has been the only/main possible downside of the HDR10 system (for people with <1000nit displays where tone-mapping is required) so far. This addition of dynamic metadata to HDR10 which is what this is - in a backwards-compatible way, too! - has been very very widely trailered for ages. It's not a surprise, we've all been waiting for it.

Quote:
Next thing were going to have multiple version of the same 4k Blu ray with different specs, confusing consumers even more.
No. Won't happen and there's simply no need for it. HDR10+ is backwards-compatible so it'll merely replace HDR10 on discs if it's approved, or it won't be used. The dolby vision system is already optional as a layer on top of HDR10 just like the immersive audio formats (DTS:X and Atmos) are optional on top of base 7.1 and 5.1 audio layers. One single disc is and will be sold.
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post #116 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post
I believe if Dolby can get at least two-thirds of the world's cinemas to upgrade to Dolby Vision, they may be able to force the BDA to make DV mandatory along with HDR10...

"..at least two-thirds of the world's cinemas..."



I know you are probably exaggerating a little bit here (and that this is just a random number you came up with), but that number is a little on the optimistic/high side. Let's just say that it's not likely to happen anytime soon (or ever!).

There are currently around 160,000+ Cinema screens worldwide.

Out of those, there currently are 86 Dolby Cinemas worldwide (65 in the US—all within AMC multiplexes thanks to an exclusive deal with Dolby—with 5 in Europe and 16 in China). However, not all movies shown in Dolby Cinemas are graded in HDR. Also, not all Dolby Cinema locations play Dolby Vision-graded movies during their theatrical run; that’s up to each exhibitor.

Now 86 out of 160,000 adds up to only ~0.05% (which is a long way off from 66%).

Just sayin'


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post #117 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 05:15 PM
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Some interesting info on this: https://cepro.ehmedia.co/webinar-registration11706805

Technical Director of HDMI LA says HDMI 2.1 can be achieved via firmware update as long as the HDMI chipset is upgradeable. 2015 Samsung owners said they received an update from 2.0 to 2.0a, so their chipset was upgradeable. Who knows if that's the case for the 2016 TVs, but it's certainly not out of the question.

I'm skeptical that most current TV chipsets are upgradeable to HDMI 2.1 spec compliancy. 48Gbps is required for HDMI 2.1 vs 18Gbps now.
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post #118 of 138 Old 04-21-2017, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mrtickleuk View Post
The beauty of HDR10+ which hasn't been mentioned so far yet is that it's backwards-compatible with HDR10. You don't need to have both HDR10+ and HDR10. TVs which only understand HDR10 get the HDR10 without the additional dynamic metadata features, and everyone's a winner.


Dynamic metadata is definitely needed ,This displays are capable of high brightness but since the backlight is set to one brightness setting for the entire movie ,the dark scenes look awful with those raised blacks.


HDR still challenging on edge lits,in specific dark scenes.


This backlights are push too hard ,so I think HDR + could solve some issues,like over heating,black levels ect ect.So don't be surprised if your display start to look a little less brighter. If HDR10 + is like DV then any manual backlight adjustment could mess the picture.


Let the display perform to its capability not over the capability.It will still be plenty bright.

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post #119 of 138 Old 04-22-2017, 12:05 AM
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Wonder if Amazon is giving up on Dolby Vision?

There are 10 Sony movies with DV on Amazon, but all the newer Sony releases are HDR10 only there.

Bosch season 2 had DV. Season 3, which just debuted, does not (HDR10 only). Neither does any of the other original series on Amazon have DV.
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post #120 of 138 Old 04-22-2017, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by losservatore View Post
Dynamic metadata is definitely needed ,This displays are capable of high brightness but since the backlight is set to one brightness setting for the entire movie ,the dark scenes look awful with those raised blacks.


HDR still challenging on edge lits,in specific dark scenes.


This backlights are push too hard ,so I think HDR + could solve some issues,like over heating,black levels ect ect.So don't be surprised if your display start to look a little less brighter. If HDR10 + is like DV then any manual brightness adjustment could mess the picture.


Let the display perform to its capability not over the capability.It will still be plenty bright.

1 big advantages of hdr10+ could be that picture wise it's similar but has better control over settings and more adjustable. It remains to be seen. Hdr10+ may be too late in the game, should have been launched a year ago.
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Reply High Dynamic Range (HDR) & Wide Color Gamut (WCG)

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