Samsung, Panasonic, 20th Century Fox Team Up to License HDR10+ - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 60 Old 08-28-2017, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Samsung, Panasonic, 20th Century Fox Team Up to License HDR10+

Samsung, Panasonic, and 20th Century Fox are forming a partnership to license HDR10+ with dynamic metadata—royalty-free.

http://www.avsforum.com/samsung-pana...license-hdr10/
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post #2 of 60 Old 08-28-2017, 09:26 PM
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So this is their answer to Dolby Vision. Now we have another war on our hands. I just hope as a 2016 OLED owner that has a tv that only will ever support Dolby Vision and the now soon to be retired/updated HDR10, that Dolby Vision gets fixed in the next firmware update. At least DV should be identicle to HDR10+ so early adopters can still enjoy it.
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post #3 of 60 Old 08-28-2017, 11:23 PM
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Looking though the initial comments online. . . .

This one is likely quite accurate as far as Samsung and even Panasonic are concerned.

Quote:
"But the intent is really just to give a salesman the ability to say "Sure, it doesn't have Dolby Vision, but it has HDR10+ (which you know nothing about and that I will tell you is just as good)."
IMHO thats really the case, both Samsung and Panasonic because they bowed out of supporting DV, now have to have something that they can claim is comparable as well as might highlight their brands over months of having lack of Dolby Vision looked on as a negative.

Couple of other quotes that are relevant:

Quote:
Another point that seems to be missed here is that the UHD BD standard doesn't currently support HDR10+. So it is ONLY streaming content.
Quote:
There remain many questions, such as whether there are any plans to release disc-based HDR10+ 4K Blu-rays, or which Panasonic 4K TVs/ UHD Blu-ray players can be firmware-updated to support HDR10 Plus. We hope to find out some answers when we speak to the relevant spokespersons at Panasonic’s and Samsung’s IFA booths later this week
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post #4 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 05:22 AM
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I wonder what this does with Fox's and Dolby's relationship. Is Fox now not going to use Dolby for their theatrical releases? Seems strange from Fox.... Will Ferdinand be the last movie they do in Dolby Vision?

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post #5 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 07:36 AM
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Man, I'm stating to feel like Brooks. How can we keep our hardware up to date when software is changing all the time. If HDR+ can not be added with a firmware update, all those fancy TV's and players are going to be a step behind.

I'm a buy it and keep it type of guy. Had a great CRT that I kept for years, missed the plasma era because I could not make up my mind. A few years ago I was set on getting a Vizio "M" series but then I wanted HDR but even the new M's are not full HDR. The LG B7/C7 looks great (just need the price to go down) but I just can't pull the trigger yet. Oppo's new BDP-203 seems like the perfect player for me since I need the analog outputs as I'm running an old top of the line AVR (Marantz AVR with a copper plate bottom) with only Dolby digital, no True-HD or DTS-HD. I just want my next physical media player to be my last physical media player.

I guess I'm too old for that sort of nonsense any more. I don't like it here. I'm tired of being afraid all the time. I've decided not to stay. I doubt they'll kick up any fuss. Not for an old crook like me.

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post #6 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
Looking though the initial comments online. . . .

This one is likely quite accurate as far as Samsung and even Panasonic are concerned.



IMHO thats really the case, both Samsung and Panasonic because they bowed out of supporting DV, now have to have something that they can claim is comparable as well as might highlight their brands over months of having lack of Dolby Vision looked on as a negative.

Couple of other quotes that are relevant:
DV is already a negligible upgrade over HDR10 (and currently has its own issues that actually makes it worse in some areas) so it won't take much for HDR10+ to be on equal footing with DV. Indeed, the two will be 100% identical on current 10 bit panels.

As far as HDR10+ being added to the UHD disc specs, it was already confirmed by an insider over at blu-ray.com that it will be added as an optional layer at some point, and Samsung/Panasonic are planning on making it available on blu ray players in early 2018.
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post #7 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 08:51 AM
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Getting ready to buy a new 4K TV and avr and now this. Guess I'll wait awhile and see what happens.
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post #8 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 10:19 AM
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Now all we need is a HDFury equivalent device that can convert DV to HDR10+ and HDR10+ to DV. Problem solved and everyone is happy.
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post #9 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 11:32 AM
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Coexistence of different HDR formats within a TV is technically possible, because HDR formats are just software (decoding / mapping software) at the TV level and modern TV are compuTV (computer + TV).
Universal HDR-compliant displays

I think we, consumers, can’t let "what happens in the industry happens".
After all, we, consumers, pay!

Consumers should push for universal HDR TV in the same way audio/video receivers have universal support for audio formats (Dolby Digital / DTS / Dolby Atmos / DTS:X / …).
Universal HDR-compliant displays

Thus, it doesn’t matter what HDR format a given program uses; a TV that implements all formats can accommodate the content and display it to its best advantage.

Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

Push for universal HDR TV!
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post #10 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 11:55 AM
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Ultimately, TV makers will have universal HDR TVs, but it will take a year or two.

This is no different than the continuing onward growth of HDMI; existing devices may or may not be able to be upgraded.
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post #11 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 12:36 PM
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Ha! I knew there was a reason why I am still hanging onto my 1080p television from 2011. Plus I also have Passive 3D which I enjoy from time to time.
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post #12 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 12:40 PM
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The HDMI 2.1 feature eARC (Enhanced Audio Return Channel) supporting Dolby Atmos or DTS:X will be enabled on 2017 Marantz AVR via a future firmware upgrade.
http://us.marantz.com/us/Products/Pa...oductId=SR6012

According to Jeff Park, Technical Director of HDMI LA, a HDMI 2.0b / HDMI 2.1 firmware upgrade is possible if the HDMI chipset was designed to be upgradable.
https://cepro.ehmedia.co/webinar-confirmation11710499


(High-end) universal HDR TV manufacturers should commit to support all operational and being standardized (i.e. via committed upgrade) HDR formats.




Universal HDR-compliant displays
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Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

Push for universal HDR TV!
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post #13 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lineproduct View Post
DV is already a negligible upgrade over HDR10 (and currently has its own issues that actually makes it worse in some areas) so it won't take much for HDR10+ to be on equal footing with DV. Indeed, the two will be 100% identical on current 10 bit panels.
We already had lots of video reviewers comment on DV vs HDR10. No it is not a negligible upgrade, its quite discernible. At this time you are speculating about HDR10+ as streaming becoming equivalent, where as Dolby Vision has already progressed past streaming to becoming an established video mastering option on UHD disc's.

Quote:
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As far as HDR10+ being added to the UHD disc specs, it was already confirmed by an insider over at blu-ray.com that it will be added as an optional layer at some point, and Samsung/Panasonic are planning on making it available on blu ray players in early 2018.
The usual caveat is to say at best its a speculative guess in the dark, especially since its takes forever to implement video standards.

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post #14 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBa View Post
Consumers should push for universal HDR TV in the same way audio/video receivers have universal support for audio formats (Dolby Digital / DTS / Dolby Atmos / DTS:X / …)
Thus, it doesn’t matter what HDR format a given program uses; a TV that implements all formats can accommodate the content and display it to its best advantage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post
Ultimately, TV makers will have universal HDR TVs, but it will take a year or two.
The difference is that DTS and Dolby audio standards stayed around for years. It seems like a new HDR format comes out every 4 months and it will only get worse with streaming HDR. Seems like every company wants there own version.
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post #15 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post
We already had lots of video reviewers comment on DV vs HDR10. No it is not a negligible upgrade, its quite discernible. At this time you are speculating about HDR10+ as streaming becoming equivalent, where as Dolby Vision has already progressed past streaming to becoming an established video mastering option on UHD disc's.

The usual caveat is to say at best its a speculative guess in the dark, especially since its takes forever to implement video standards.
DV is a negligible upgrade, as the vast majority of pros and owners of DV TVs have confirmed. Not to mention that it has considerable issues at the moment that hinder the experience.

Anyways, this thread is about HDR10+ and the new alliance.

Last edited by rboster; 08-29-2017 at 04:56 PM.
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post #16 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
The difference is that DTS and Dolby audio standards stayed around for years. It seems like a new HDR format comes out every 4 months and it will only get worse with streaming HDR. Seems like every company wants there own version.
As far as I know, DTS:X was designed at the same time, circa 2015, than SMPTE ST 2094 dynamic metadata for color volume transform, one of the fundamental building blocks of HDR10 Plus (the others are ST 2084 PQ and ST 2086 display color volume).
https://www.smpte.org/sites/default/...2015-FINAL.pdf

Anyway, HDR formats are just software at the TV level.
And software development is easier and faster on TV’s modern operating systems like Android or WebOS than on rigid and complex DSP platforms of audio/video receiver.
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Universal audio/video receiver (Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, etc.) is achieved.
Universal HDR TV (HDR10, Dolby Vision, HEVC HLG HDR, VP9-HLG / VP9-PQ YouTube HDR, Dynamic HDR) is required.

Push for universal HDR TV!
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post #17 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
The difference is that DTS and Dolby audio standards stayed around for years. It seems like a new HDR format comes out every 4 months and it will only get worse with streaming HDR. Seems like every company wants there own version.
You must not remember the early days of Blu-ray when it seemed a new surround format was announced every few months. Dolby Pro Logic, Pro Logic II, Pro Logic Iix, Pro Logic IIz, Digital, Digital EX, Digital Plus, True HD, and now Atmos. DTS , DTS-ES, DTS-HD Master Audio, DTS Neo:6, DTS Neo:X, DTS:X.

It's largely why many who didn't use receivers decided to punt and get players that would decode audio instead.

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post #18 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 03:27 PM
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I imagine this will be fairly easy to slip into the existing UHD Blu-ray spec as SEI messages in the encoded video stream. In that scenario, the authoring application likely wouldn't even need changed, just the encoder.

Hopefully manufacturers make the necessary firmware updates to their players and displays to add this support and we don't get bogged down in a stupid format battle.

There's also the possibility of an enterprising manufacturer adding a feature to their players to take HDR10+ data and output it to the display as Dolby Vision, for existing displays...

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post #19 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gillietalls View Post
I wonder what this does with Fox's and Dolby's relationship. Is Fox now not going to use Dolby for their theatrical releases? Seems strange from Fox.... Will Ferdinand be the last movie they do in Dolby Vision?
This is what I don't understand at all...Fox is already spending the money to have their films mastered in DV....Ferinand according to the Dolby website will be in Atmos only, the next Fox film in DV will be Kingsman: The Golden Circle with no others after that [Murder on the Orient Express will be Atmos only].

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https://www.dolby.com/us/en/cinema/t...-releases.html

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post #20 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundmaster10.2 View Post
This is what I don't understand at all...Fox is already spending the money to have their films mastered in DV....Ferinand according to the Dolby website will be in Atmos only, the next Fox film in DV will be Kingsman: The Golden Circle with no others after that [Murder on the Orient Express will be Atmos only].

Link:

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/cinema/t...-releases.html

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Doesn't this partnership only involve HDR10+ streaming? If so then Samsung is working with Amazon, and 20th Century Fox to provide the content, with Panasonic is there besides Samsung with devices that support that streaming.

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post #21 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 04:49 PM
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There's nothing in the press release that says this is strictly for streaming. It will be at first, but once HDR10+ gets added to the UHD disc spec, there's nothing limiting it to only streaming.

Keep in mind that Samsung just had one of their cinema LED displays installed in a theater, and will have more installed in the near future. No doubt they will be looking to get HDR10+ into theaters as well.
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post #22 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 06:30 PM
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From what I have heard, licensing and hardware costs for Dolby Vision is minuscule when compared to the actual costs of discs and hardware. It equals or beats HDR10+ in every way as far as I can tell. It seems like the only good commercial reason for HDR10+ is something for other cinemas while AMC has Dolby Cinema exclusivity.

With this announcement, I think I will hold off on anymore major hardware purchases until they include actual HDR10+ support, not simply the announcement of a firmware upgrade. Too bad, I was just about ready to get the Oppo-203.
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post #23 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
Man, I'm stating to feel like Brooks. How can we keep our hardware up to date when software is changing all the time. If HDR+ can not be added with a firmware update, all those fancy TV's and players are going to be a step behind.

I'm a buy it and keep it type of guy. Had a great CRT that I kept for years, missed the plasma era because I could not make up my mind. A few years ago I was set on getting a Vizio "M" series but then I wanted HDR but even the new M's are not full HDR. The LG B7/C7 looks great (just need the price to go down) but I just can't pull the trigger yet. Oppo's new BDP-203 seems like the perfect player for me since I need the analog outputs as I'm running an old top of the line AVR (Marantz AVR with a copper plate bottom) with only Dolby digital, no True-HD or DTS-HD. I just want my next physical media player to be my last physical media player.

I guess I'm too old for that sort of nonsense any more. I don't like it here. I'm tired of being afraid all the time. I've decided not to stay. I doubt they'll kick up any fuss. Not for an old crook like me.

i totally feel you. while my bank account has not always allowed me to be a super early adopter, i've usually been able to jump in second gen, or at the very least started saving with a specific goal in mind.

i'm still living in a 1080p era, and i have less and less idea what is going on with UHD/4k/HDR/whatever every week... i have a feeling by the time i'm ready to give up my current displays, and jump in, we'll have something else

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post #24 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 06:57 PM
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And while the Panasonics , samsungs and sony's dual it out on formats the vizios's and TCL will get the sales. This is just about licensing
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post #25 of 60 Old 08-29-2017, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wilkinson View Post
Samsung, Panasonic, and 20th Century Fox are forming a partnership to license HDR10+ with dynamic metadata—royalty-free.

http://www.avsforum.com/samsung-pana...license-hdr10/
Thanks Scott!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermans View Post
So this is their answer to Dolby Vision. Now we have another war on our hands. I just hope as a 2016 OLED owner that has a tv that only will ever support Dolby Vision and the now soon to be retired/updated HDR10, that Dolby Vision gets fixed in the next firmware update. At least DV should be identicle to HDR10+ so early adopters can still enjoy it.
I am not sure why it has to be a war, I don't see it like Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. We have Dolby and DTS on the audio side and DV and HDR+ on the video side. More options and I like options.

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post #26 of 60 Old 08-30-2017, 02:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronMK View Post
From what I have heard, licensing and hardware costs for Dolby Vision is minuscule when compared to the actual costs of discs and hardware. It equals or beats HDR10+ in every way as far as I can tell. It seems like the only good commercial reason for HDR10+ is something for other cinemas while AMC has Dolby Cinema exclusivity.

With this announcement, I think I will hold off on anymore major hardware purchases until they include actual HDR10+ support, not simply the announcement of a firmware upgrade. Too bad, I was just about ready to get the Oppo-203.
I agree, not a good time to buy a new tv, unfortunately

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post #27 of 60 Old 08-30-2017, 08:45 AM
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Thumbs up HDR10+ Won't Require New Hardware

Musttech News Wednsday, August 30, 2017


HDR10+, a new standard by Samsung and Amazon
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post #28 of 60 Old 08-30-2017, 10:41 AM
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Just my opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post
... There's also the possibility of an enterprising manufacturer adding a feature to their players to take HDR10+ data and output it to the display as Dolby Vision, for existing displays...
Not a snowball’s chance in HE double L.

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A Dolby Vision Disk, plus a Dolby Vision Player, plus a calibrated Dolby Vision Display = Peace of Mind that you are seeing the best picture for the $$$$ spent on your equipment.
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post #29 of 60 Old 08-30-2017, 10:54 AM
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Question Why do you care

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lineproduct View Post
DV is a negligible upgrade, as the vast majority of pros and owners of DV TVs have confirmed. Not to mention that it has considerable issues at the moment that hinder the experience.

Anyways, this thread is about HDR10+ and the new alliance.

You just stated that dynamic metadata is a negligible upgrade over static metadata. Why all the fuss over HDR10+. So please state why we should care about HDR10+.

"Death, where is thy sting"

A Dolby Vision Disk, plus a Dolby Vision Player, plus a calibrated Dolby Vision Display = Peace of Mind that you are seeing the best picture for the $$$$ spent on your equipment.
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post #30 of 60 Old 08-30-2017, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by StayingSalty View Post
Not a snowball’s chance in HE double L.
Can you elaborate as to why you think there's no chance?

David Mackenzie
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ISF Certified Calibrator (Level 2) / THX Certified Professional (Video Calibration Level 2)
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Reply High Dynamic Range (HDR) & Wide Color Gamut (WCG)

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