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post #1 of 25 Old 09-21-2017, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Apple TV DV / HDR Question

What happens with Apple TV Dolby Vision content when it’s displayed on a HDR ( i.e. Non DV) display?

Is the content still HDR or Standard Dynamic Range?

I know that DV content can allow for a HDR (High Dynamic Range) “layer” but it’s unclear to me if that’s going to happen with Apple TV.

For example, I’ve confirmed that when VUDU DV (Dolby Vision) content is played back on a non-DV display the content is downscaled to Standard Dynamic Range.

Thank you!
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post #2 of 25 Old 09-21-2017, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by skalata View Post
What happens with Apple TV Dolby Vision content when it’s displayed on a HDR ( i.e. Non DV) display?

Is the content still HDR or Standard Dynamic Range?

I know that DV content can allow for a HDR (High Dynamic Range) “layer” but it’s unclear to me if that’s going to happen with Apple TV.

For example, I’ve confirmed that when VUDU DV (Dolby Vision) content is played back on a non-DV display the content is downscaled to Standard Dynamic Range.

Thank you!
It will play back in HDR10 according to Nilay Patel who reviewed it for The Verge: https://www.theverge.com/2017/9/21/1...2017#444631431
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post #3 of 25 Old 09-21-2017, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Hmmmm...
I've read that link twice, and perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see my questions addressed in that review.
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post #4 of 25 Old 09-21-2017, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by skalata View Post
Hmmmm...
I've read that link twice, and perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't see my questions addressed in that review.
Maybe the link isn't quite working for you. I pointed to my question in the comments.

"Nilay, were you able to test if a title listed as Dolby Vision on iTunes plays back in HDR10 on a display without DV?"

"Yep, they do."
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post #5 of 25 Old 09-21-2017, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by puddy77 View Post
Maybe the link isn't quite working for you. I pointed to my question in the comments.

"Nilay, were you able to test if a title listed as Dolby Vision on iTunes plays back in HDR10 on a display without DV?"

"Yep, they do."
Thanks for your help!

BUT he also said the ATV is "up-converting" ALL content to 4K HDR, so how would he know if it's actually playing the true HDR "layer" or just artificially up-sampling SDR (because the display is not DV compatible) so the display then reads "HDR"?

To me, the devil is in the details here!
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post #6 of 25 Old 09-21-2017, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by skalata View Post
Thanks for your help!

BUT he also said the ATV is "up-converting" ALL content to 4K HDR, so how would he know if it's actually playing the true HDR "layer" or just artificially up-sampling SDR (because the display is not DV compatible) so the display then reads "HDR"?

To me, the devil is in the details here!
I guess that is a possibility. Unless the ATV 4k has some sort of info screen that verifies the source format, we may never be able to confirm without comparing the same films to known HDR versions.
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post #7 of 25 Old 09-21-2017, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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And that's the rub...

I suspect, until I see evidence to the contrary, that ATV will artificially convert ALL content to "fake HDR" if unable to display in Dolby Vision or if the content isn't specifically HDR10 encoded.

I've been trying to determine this for some time and have not been able to find anyone who knows the facts.
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post #8 of 25 Old 09-22-2017, 07:14 AM
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If it converts all material to 4K/HDR, they may have just lost my sale. I don’t want to have to keep changing settings back and forth when I want to watch non HDR stuff.
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post #9 of 25 Old 09-22-2017, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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+1

So far, that seems to be the case. I suspect most people won't even care. They'll simply see the HDR logo pop up on their display and conclude all is well.
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post #10 of 25 Old 09-22-2017, 09:06 AM
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By default, ATV will try to negotiate the best quality output format that your display supports per HDMI EDID information. It can handle all of the gamut/tonemapping conversions, frame doubling/interpolation, cadence detection, YCbCr 4:4:4 -> 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 downsampling, etc if and as needed so that your display never has to switch modes or do an HDMI renegotiation.

The point of that is actually to never cause the display to have the HDR logo pop up again and again, say because you hit pause on the movie or entered the menu, or even if you play two movies-- one in HDR and one not. However, in this other thread, there's a screenshot of the display formats you can choose if you want to force something like 4K SDR at 24Hz or 30Hz or whatever:

Apple TV 5 Supports 4K/UHD HDR with Many Movies on iTunes

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post #11 of 25 Old 09-22-2017, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Right, I understand all of that.

The original question was about how ATV will display Dolby Vision content on a Non-DV display and whether that will be HDR10, "Fake" HDR or just plain SDR. Apple seems to suggest, so far at least, that only Dolby Vision content will be true HDR and only on a DV display unless one views one of the few HDR10 titles (on a HDR10 display) listed at the Apple store.
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post #12 of 25 Old 09-22-2017, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skalata View Post
Right, I understand all of that.



The original question was about how ATV will display Dolby Vision content on a Non-DV display and whether that will be HDR10, "Fake" HDR or just plain SDR. Apple seems to suggest, so far at least, that only Dolby Vision content will be true HDR and only on a DV display unless one views one of the few HDR10 titles (on a HDR10 display) listed at the Apple store.


When did Apple suggest that?

There’s a clear difference between Fake HDR and HDR. You’ll know when the content you’re watching is HDR10 or not. If you can’t tell them apart, then you will need to calibrate your set properly.

When DV is not applicable to your set, HDR10 will play by default. That’s how it generally works.


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post #13 of 25 Old 09-22-2017, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, that's NOT the case with the VUDU 4K DV content. Any VUDU 4K Dolby Vision content played by on a non DV display is rendered as 4K Standard Dynamic Ranage, NOT HDR10.

I've tested this with two different movies.
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post #14 of 25 Old 09-22-2017, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skalata View Post
Right, I understand all of that.

The original question was about how ATV will display Dolby Vision content on a Non-DV display and whether that will be HDR10, "Fake" HDR or just plain SDR.
That depends on what the non-DV display is capable of doing, going by what its EDID states that it supports.

If the non-DV display can only do plain SDR, then ATV will have to convert to Dolby Vision down to BT.709 color space. If the non-DV display can handle HDR10, then DV dynamic metadata should get mapped to static values used by HDR10 per Rec.2020 or Rec.2100 color space.

I'm not sure what you mean by "fake HDR"? Maybe you mean a display or projector that uses wide color gamut like DCI P3, or maybe you mean something which supports 30bpp, 36bpp, or 48bpp pixel formats per the VSDB EDID section but not ~1000+ nits spot brightness?

Quote:
Apple seems to suggest, so far at least, that only Dolby Vision content will be true HDR and only on a DV display unless one views one of the few HDR10 titles (on a HDR10 display) listed at the Apple store.
No, that is not what is published here:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208074

There are three major categories of 4K displays:

4K SDR
4K HDR (aka HDR10)
4K using Dolby Vision (which is also referred to as "Dolby Vision HDR").

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post #15 of 25 Old 09-22-2017, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by skalata View Post
Well, that's NOT the case with the VUDU 4K DV content. Any VUDU 4K Dolby Vision content played by on a non DV display is rendered as 4K Standard Dynamic Ranage, NOT HDR10.



I've tested this with two different movies.


That’s a Vudu problem. They chose not to implement HDR10. But they will.

Could you post a source to Apple suggesting DV will be the only true form of HDR?


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post #16 of 25 Old 09-22-2017, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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For one thing, I've noticed that Apple specifically notes which HDR format the movie has. Most are DV, but a few are HDR10.
Nowhere does it say that DV content will be displayed and native (10 bit) HDR10. We already know that VUDU's DV titles are not compatible with HDR10 and play back with STD DR.

We also know from a recent published review that the new ATV "upconverts" everything to 4K HDR. Taking something that was not HDR and manipulating it to HDR is what I call Fake HDR...
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post #17 of 25 Old 09-22-2017, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skalata View Post
For one thing, I've noticed that Apple specifically notes which HDR format the movie has. Most are DV, but a few are HDR10.

Nowhere does it say that DV content will be displayed and native (10 bit) HDR10. We already know that VUDU's DV titles are not compatible with HDR10 and play back with STD DR.



We also know from a recent published review that the new ATV "upconverts" everything to 4K HDR. Taking something that was not HDR and manipulating it to HDR is what I call Fake HDR...


Your last line is incorrect the ATV can upconvert everything to HDR but there’s multiple settings to change that.

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post #18 of 25 Old 09-22-2017, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skalata View Post
For one thing, I've noticed that Apple specifically notes which HDR format the movie has. Most are DV, but a few are HDR10.

Nowhere does it say that DV content will be displayed and native (10 bit) HDR10. We already know that VUDU's DV titles are not compatible with HDR10 and play back with STD DR.



We also know from a recent published review that the new ATV "upconverts" everything to 4K HDR. Taking something that was not HDR and manipulating it to HDR is what I call Fake HDR...


Okay so they didn’t really suggest anything then. It was your assumption.

Dolby Vision is a form of HDR. The same way HDR10 is a form of HDR. HDR10+ is a form of HDR. HLG is a form of HDR.

Dolby Vision is the superior HDR format. That’s why it sits at the top. When a movie says Dolby Vision, it’s because it supports DV and HDR10.

HDR10 is free. DV requires a licensing fee. The movies with HDR only are from studios that didn’t want to pay the licensing fee or they might have gone all in with HDR10 and HDR10+.

If content is available in DV, it has to be available in HDR10 also. Vudu has been very secretive about why they didn’t want to use HDR10. Probably some complications in the delivery system.

That won’t happen on the Apple TV because the specs clearly state DV and HDR10 support. So if your tv does not support DV, you will get the HDR10 version.

It can get confusing to casual viewers and they should either mention in the description of every movie which format it’s available in or simply add HDR10 next to Dolby Vision at the top.




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post #19 of 25 Old 09-25-2017, 11:46 AM
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Apple 4K HDR - Passthrough to Sony XBR-75X850E ?

I've just purchased an Apple 4KHDR box, but can't get the 4KHDR through my new model Sony receiver (STRDN-1080) into my Sony XBR-75X850E. All HDR compatible, seemingly.

Yes, all 2.0+ cables are being used.

I've set the HDMI settings on the receiver to "Enhanced" for the Apple TV input.

The Apple TV setup however fails to see the receiver as a 4KHDR device.

Suggestions?
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post #20 of 25 Old 09-25-2017, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coralseastudios View Post
I've just purchased an Apple 4KHDR box, but can't get the 4KHDR through my new model Sony receiver (STRDN-1080) into my Sony XBR-75X850E. All HDR compatible, seemingly.

Yes, all 2.0+ cables are being used.

I've set the HDMI settings on the receiver to "Enhanced" for the Apple TV input.

The Apple TV setup however fails to see the receiver as a 4KHDR device.

Suggestions?
It looks like everything in your chain should support HDR10.

Does it work if you connect ATV directly to the Sony XBR display? BTW, I think you need to be using HDMI inputs 2 or 3 for full bandwidth-- HMDI 1 probably won't work for 4K+HDR....

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post #21 of 25 Old 09-25-2017, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coralseastudios View Post
I've just purchased an Apple 4KHDR box, but can't get the 4KHDR through my new model Sony receiver (STRDN-1080) into my Sony XBR-75X850E. All HDR compatible, seemingly.

Yes, all 2.0+ cables are being used.

I've set the HDMI settings on the receiver to "Enhanced" for the Apple TV input.

The Apple TV setup however fails to see the receiver as a 4KHDR device.

Suggestions?
I'm getting the same result with Denon 7200 and Sony 665ES projector - ATV will not engage HDR and defaults to 4K SDR. I connected another ATV to LG OLED directly and everything worked like a charm. Next I will try connecting ATV directly to projector.
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post #22 of 25 Old 09-25-2017, 01:30 PM
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I had that happen to me with my Yamaha receiver. After replacing all the cables I found a setting in the Yamaha for HDMI signal format and changed it to mode 1 which basically allows all signals. Then I turned off monitor check. Now the atv4k shows 4k hdr as well as my Sony Blu player. I AM having an issue the sony bdp menu being grainy but the ATV4K is fixed. I know this is not your equipment but maybe something similar in your reciever settings.
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post #23 of 25 Old 09-26-2017, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by u8mycrackers View Post
I had that happen to me with my Yamaha receiver. After replacing all the cables I found a setting in the Yamaha for HDMI signal format and changed it to mode 1 which basically allows all signals. Then I turned off monitor check. Now the atv4k shows 4k hdr as well as my Sony Blu player. I AM having an issue the sony bdp menu being grainy but the ATV4K is fixed. I know this is not your equipment but maybe something similar in your reciever settings.
In case if someone else here gets 4K ATV - I set output to 4k HDR at 24 HZ and it worked.

HT Setup: Sony VPL- VW665ES Projector, Stewart UltraMatte 150 140" screen, Denon AVR 7200WA, B&W 803 Diamonds, Atmos Setup, Oppo UDP-203 player, 4K ATV

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post #24 of 25 Old 09-26-2017, 04:49 PM
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Apple TV is using Dolby Vision profile 5.

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...2-9-170601.pdf

Which is a single layer HDR10 bit stream, compatible with HDR10 displays and the only enhancement dolby vision provides in this case is dynamic metadata.

VUDU uses dual layer 12 bit stream where the base layer is SDR, hence why on non DV displays you only see SDR.
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post #25 of 25 Old 09-27-2017, 12:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mozmo View Post
Apple TV is using Dolby Vision profile 5.

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...2-9-170601.pdf

Which is a single layer HDR10 bit stream, compatible with HDR10 displays and the only enhancement dolby vision provides in this case is dynamic metadata.

VUDU uses dual layer 12 bit stream where the base layer is SDR, hence why on non DV displays you only see SDR.
That's the answer I was looking for!

Very helpful!

Thanks again
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