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post #1 of 193 Old 12-22-2016, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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360° 3D VR cameras

I thought I would start this thread as 3D 360° VR is becoming very popular because of the Google cardboard VR units for smartphone and all of the knock offs from that on Amazon.

I saw this for sale at BH: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...spherical.html

This is the website: http://vuze.camera/

Looks like Sony technology. Click on the Showroom tab. Some of the videos are in 3D. You can click on 4K on the youtube videos, but they don't show like 4K, more like 720p, which makes me think the 3D stitching software does a stitch on pre-rendered videos decreasing resolution.

I'm sure we will see a lot of these at CES this year.

(Don...what your using?)
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post #2 of 193 Old 12-26-2016, 04:36 PM
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360 video and 360 3D video

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Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
I thought I would start this thread as 3D 360° VR is becoming very popular because of the Google cardboard VR units for smartphone and all of the knock offs from that on Amazon.

I saw this for sale at BH: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...spherical.html

This is the website: http://vuze.camera/

Looks like Sony technology. Click on the Showroom tab. Some of the videos are in 3D. You can click on 4K on the youtube videos, but they don't show like 4K, more like 720p, which makes me think the 3D stitching software does a stitch on pre-rendered videos decreasing resolution.

I'm sure we will see a lot of these at CES this year.

(Don...what your using?)
This Vuze camera was originally said to be available in October 2016, on its website up at least since last June, now it is March 2017. The quality of the videos they post has never been impressive.

There are currently no serious 3D 360 consumer cameras. And the non-360 cameras that promise "4K" when stitched for 360 videos always have lower resolution since you are seeing only a portion of the 360 image at a time. It is not a software trick or problem, simply that 4K is not enough resolution. Right now the Kodak dual 360 4K pair gives the best 360 image of consumer cameras, but it is not 3D. The resolution of the stitched image from that is the official Youtube 360 "4K" standard - 3840x1920. The camera you linked to does not even make that.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...C&Q=&A=details

3D is dead as a consumer format, for shooting especially but now even for viewing movies. Maybe 360 video will take off, but I doubt it. In any case, 3D and 360 video techniques and applications are wholly different.

Bill Landis is now shooting with a 360 camera that is not 3D. The resolution of the videos he has posted is appallingly bad, as evidenced by his Christmas 360 video.

Note: I have shot 3D videos for many years with many cameras. I have shot 360 videos recently (the 360 4K Kodaks, the Samsung Gear 360). I have over one million views of my 360 photos on Google Street View.

It might be useful to have a 360 shooting forum, but it does not belong here.
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post #3 of 193 Old 12-27-2016, 07:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Mark, I agree with your assessment. I received a VR headset as a gag gift for my birthday last year. It's one of the Google Cardboard knock-offs similar to Samsung's that you put your phone into the front of. The resolution is awful since you can clearly see the pixels. Most of the stuff available are the 2D 360 videos. Not much 3D, and most is awful or nauseating to watch. With Oculus Rift out now, that might change due to the increase in resolution, but still a long ways to go to get a wide viewing angle to make the scenes more realistic. Perhaps CES 2017 will be the year of the 360 3D VR 4k headsets and 4K 3D low-cost projectors (yeah, I can wish ).
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post #4 of 193 Old 12-28-2016, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

3D is dead as a consumer format, for shooting especially but now even for viewing movies. Maybe 360 video will take off, but I doubt it. In any case, 3D and 360 video techniques and applications are wholly different.
Agree with this to some degree. 3D is all but dead in the US in new flatscreens. I say all but because there are still a couple of manufactures that include the feature on higher priced sets. Of course, most of the people who buy them probably aren't even aware of this feature. On the other hand, I strongly suspect that the minority of people who buy projectors are very aware of the 3D feature which is still included in many projectors. As for being dead with regard to viewing movies, if you are including theatrical releases, I would seriously beg to differ. Hollywood is still turning them out and people are still going to see them. In fact, my son just went to see the new Star Wars movie in- yes I know it's a conversion- 3D last week and it is playing in both 2D and 3D in several theaters in the town I live in. Also of note is that Disney made an exception to their no BD 3D release policy and released last year's Star Wars movie in a 3D BD version. So, probably fair to say that 3D isn't dead but on life support. I've also, as has Bob, been into 3D in one way shape or form since the early 1970s and have been through several incarnations of it. I'm also realistic enough to believe that it ain't coming back in its next incarnation for many more years other than as a niche product- probably VR. But, someday it will return. They'll hype it, screw up its rollout, and probably kill it before it gets off the ground again. But hey, what else is new.
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post #5 of 193 Old 12-28-2016, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Barry C View Post
Agree with this to some degree. 3D is all but dead in the US in new flatscreens. I say all but because there are still a couple of manufactures that include the feature on higher priced sets. Of course, most of the people who buy them probably aren't even aware of this feature. On the other hand, I strongly suspect that the minority of people who buy projectors are very aware of the 3D feature which is still included in many projectors. As for being dead with regard to viewing movies, if you are including theatrical releases, I would seriously beg to differ. Hollywood is still turning them out and people are still going to see them. In fact, my son just went to see the new Star Wars movie in- yes I know it's a conversion- 3D last week and it is playing in both 2D and 3D in several theaters in the town I live in. Also of note is that Disney made an exception to their no BD 3D release policy and released last year's Star Wars movie in a 3D BD version. So, probably fair to say that 3D isn't dead but on life support. I've also, as has Bob, been into 3D in one way shape or form since the early 1970s and have been through several incarnations of it. I'm also realistic enough to believe that it ain't coming back in its next incarnation for many more years other than as a niche product- probably VR. But, someday it will return. They'll hype it, screw up its rollout, and probably kill it before it gets off the ground again. But hey, what else is new.
I agree with you. I meant 3D movies at home, as with 3D blurays or 3D streams. 3D is alive in theatres. 4K and HDR is the current home flat panel fad.
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post #6 of 193 Old 12-28-2016, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
I agree with you. I meant 3D movies at home, as with 3D blurays or 3D streams. 3D is alive in theatres. 4K and HDR is the current home flat panel fad.
I kind of think that 3D still has a little life left in it with home movies since, except for Disney- other than Star Wars, 3D movies are still be released on BD for home consumption. So, it should continue to chug along on albeit a low level.

As for me, I'm still making 3D films for my underwater 3D channel but from now on will always put a 2D version on as well. Some of the 3D films, though never really hot by YouTube standards, do have a steady view stream month after month often from destinations outside the US. Interestingly, the hottest one I have at the moment is the 2D version of a Cozumel film which was upscaled from 2.7K to 4K. Again, not huge by Youtube standards but the 4K designation seems to be drawing 600 views or so a week. However, I've also recently expanded expand my horizons into 4K time lapse since it presents a new challenge and new creative opportunities.

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post #7 of 193 Old 12-29-2016, 06:18 AM
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360° spherical has been a fascination of mine for several years now. I was initially introduced to the concept with street view Google Earth. About 3 years ago a Kick starter company had a small booth introducing their tiny camera for 360 degree video. The GoPro system was the only other thing out but it was very expensive and very difficult to manage the stitching of all the cameras. The KS company Giroptic360 solved these problems with modern 120 degree camera lenses, HD sensors, and firmware that handled the stitching with 99% perfection internally. It also resolved the auto stereo ( L+R) audio from 3 mics that would auto switch to 2 channels in playback from any direction. Finally the price was said to be under $500. So I signed up to be one of the first to receive a camera after the investors got theirs. In November I finally received one from their 3rd attempt at a production run. It's already had one firmware upgrade to improve image color saturation. It still is not quite the image quality of a high end GoPro 4 Black but the stitching offers far superior geometry distortion as opposed to the GoPro Hero 4B.

My first attempt at shooting was in November with a walk around a cruise ship tour. I learned quite a bit from that first run. To shoot 360° video requires a whole new way of thinking about what's on the screen. With this new format, you give up control of what is in view of your audience as they will be able to see everything in the world at the time of shooting.

While editing can be done in any NLE that can configure to custom AR ( The Giroptic 360 frame is squeezed into 2048 x 1024 ). Only the bottom is blocked by a circle that masks the camera support. Giroptic allows the user to install any image that will be cropped to a circle that you wish.

Shooting a walk around is subject to camera shake and wobble as with any camera but they have a built in IS that works to a very limited degree. In this respect, a tripod of dolly is still old technology that comes to the rescue. I have also experimented with a 3 axis motorized gimbal and that works great except the motors are slightly visible beyond the bottom mask circle.

Christmas day, I set up the Giroptic 360 on a tripod to record our day with the family.

The family was able to view and control the VR because both You Tube and Facebook has their video player compatible with 360 spherical video.

Here is the long version from my YT channel:

You don't need to do anything but only YT apps that are on the computer or on iphone seem to work. The apps I have on my media player a Blue Ray disk player does not support 360 VR yet.

If you upload raw Giroptic360 camera video to YT or FB it will work fine. However if you edit the video in a NLE, it will strip out the meta data that is required to tell the YT players that your video is a 360 spherical. So after editing, you will need to insert the meta data back into your MP4 rendered file. You don't need to write the code yourself, there are tools to do it for you. It just requires one additional step before uploading. I suspect YT will eventually add that to their "processing" one day with a check box in the advanced upload screen just as they do for 3D.

Editing is a minor challenge in that the 2x1 AR image containing 3 camera views and the mask image, cannot be edited in the traditional sense. But you can cut out all three POV's and but edit them to remove bad stuff. A dissolve also works as opposed to a cut. I haven't tried wipe transitions yet but cuts work without bizarre side effects. One bizarre side effect of a dissolve is that the background will remain and people will appear and disappear like the Rapture stories or Star Trek Transporter. You can see this in my Christmas day video that is a documentary of a day long about 90 minutes of raw clips.

Adding titles and 2D images to the video is also a challenge. I know of only one plugin app that can do it and it only works with Adobe After Effects. The software is needed to warp the text or 2D image according to the lens spherical distortion of the camera and modify the warpage depending on where you wish to place the text. Presently I have no way to add a logo or a title to my videos except to shoot it with the Giroptic and then key it into the background layer. This would require some green screen setup in a 360 circle stage and a lot of fancy planning. So, presently I will wait for the software to come out. Right now if I really wanted to put a title in my video, it can only be done using the Giroptic studio software, in the little circle mask. I have done this in the video. Just pan down to the bottom to see the inserted graphic with text. The down side is you need to add the title to the camera PRIOR to your shoot.

Let me know what you guys think.


One more thing, you don't need Google cardboard to have a VR with your iphone YT app you can just hold the phone up in front of you like the Google cardboard would do and then move around that the image on the screen will pan around based on the phone orientation in the space where you are viewing. It is like it knows whether you are facing the same direction as I originally shot it.

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post #8 of 193 Old 12-29-2016, 06:43 AM
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The Giroptic360 also shoots still photos, time lapsed, and burst frames.

It uses a micro SD card and the standard size batter that the GoPro Hero 3 uses. It can shoot upside down using an accessory base that will power the Giroptic from a light bulb socket hanging from the ceiling and live feed the 360 video to a server using wifi. This is an application for 24/7 live feed for security application.


The company has just announced a 2 x 180 degree plugin camera that inserts to the iphone Lightnin jack and sits on the iphone. Just plug it in and it turns your iphone into a 360 VR camera. I suspect this will be their big announcement at CES. Announced price- $250.

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post #9 of 193 Old 12-29-2016, 07:24 AM
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I mentioned that the internal stitching of the Giroptic is 99% perfect. In the YT title shot you can see the only detectable artifact of the stitch which is a chromatic discoloration, seen in the clouds where there is a purple like coloration. In my first attempt to edit the 360 video, I made an AR error and it had a black line that showed up. I corrected that in the Christmas day video. The lack of fisheye POV is what I like as opposed to those 2 x 235° cameras. The 3 x 120° seems to be a great compromise, IMHO.

I saw the 3D 360 spherical rig in operation using GoPro Hero 3 Black cameras which are capable of genlock. The quality is quite good for GoPro quality, but the cost was beyond what anyone here would be willing to spend. With genlocking wiring, Gopro cameras the rig came in at over $32,000. Plus it was a nightmare to stitch according to the people who built it. I think there is only one in existence. BTW- the cabling looked like a plate full of spaghetti and the rig was as big as a basketball. There was also a lessor expensive 360 circle view 3D GoPro rig that came in under $10,000.

Present day image quality standards top out at 4K UHD with HDR. No VR is doing that quality I see on my VPL VW665ES projector using it's patented Reality creation engine for 4K 3D from 2K 3D Blue Ray disks. But, in the 21st century, video has a new purpose as a result of Facebook. These videos are 15 seconds of fame to share with family and friends plus nosy people looking for a good laugh. Nobody is demanding UHD quality for a glimpse into what the general population is interested in. Some of the crappiest quality can have a million hits. Nobody cares. Nothing wrong with striving for the best quality, but be prepared to pay the price.

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post #10 of 193 Old 12-29-2016, 07:55 AM
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I just watched some of the Christmas video on my Galaxy Note 4 and the 360 worked just fine. First time watching 360 on that device. Really fun! On a screen that size, the quality was quite acceptable.

Don, I think you're spot on as to what these devices are intended for, which is short clips that people can put in Facebook, etc. And, in that most people will be watching on small mobile devices, they're well suited for that application. For the higher end stuff, that will be left up to those who wish to spend the big bucks for professional production quality. In the next few years, that too may change as the technology improves and the prices come down. But for now, I think many people will be able to get a lot of enjoyment doing exactly what you just did with that family Christmas video.
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post #11 of 193 Old 12-29-2016, 09:25 AM
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Barry, my ultimate goal with this is to have fun on my trips. When I showed it to the family 3 of them in the real estate business got really excited about application on their websites to show off homes. They are always getting requests for a POV that was not photographed.

One huge request I now see is other cruisers are always wanting better photos of ship cabins by number as there are small differences, such as obstructed view on the balcony. What is that? With viewer controlled POV, they can scan around the room.

I am actually considering making a roof mount for my car when traveling. The Giroptic has a remote control feature that I can use with the iphone to record and pause as desired. The battery runs for only 90 minutes, but if I feed a microUSB cable to power it, it will remain in standby forever. Obviously I won't compete with Google Earth Street view, but they don't go everywhere.

I'm not interested in getting millions of views. Been there done that with my old profession. Today, I'm interested in first reliving my travel memories and second, if they can help a couple people even better. To me content out weighs image quality.

BTW- FYI- YT offers certain perks when you allow advertising on your video and get over certain bench marks of views. Facebook limits the video to under 10 minutes and 1.75Gb file size.

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post #12 of 193 Old 12-29-2016, 10:26 AM
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Barry, my ultimate goal with this is to have fun on my trips. When I showed it to the family 3 of them in the real estate business got really excited about application on their websites to show off homes. They are always getting requests for a POV that was not photographed.

One huge request I now see is other cruisers are always wanting better photos of ship cabins by number as there are small differences, such as obstructed view on the balcony. What is that? With viewer controlled POV, they can scan around the room.

I am actually considering making a roof mount for my car when traveling. The Giroptic has a remote control feature that I can use with the iphone to record and pause as desired. The battery runs for only 90 minutes, but if I feed a microUSB cable to power it, it will remain in standby forever. Obviously I won't compete with Google Earth Street view, but they don't go everywhere.

I'm not interested in getting millions of views. Been there done that with my old profession. Today, I'm interested in first reliving my travel memories and second, if they can help a couple people even better. To me content out weighs image quality.

BTW- FYI- YT offers certain perks when you allow advertising on your video and get over certain bench marks of views. Facebook limits the video to under 10 minutes and 1.75Gb file size.
I can see how this could be a real benefit for realtors. Also, your idea of doing 360s of ships cabins sounds like a great one and I'm sure it should will be extremely popular with your viewers. The car mount also should be of benefit to you.

With regard to YouTube, I'm not so sure that allowing ads gives you any edge with them. I wrestled with this but sometime back but decided that I really didn't want to allow any advertising on my films and opted not to. There are a few where I used copyrighted music which the holder allowed in exchange for them having the ability to run ads on those videos. I've read some articles about YouTube and how they establish page order preferences ect. I'm not sure that the people who wrote the articles really know what goes on there but there is a consensus that your page priority may have something to do with how long you have had your channel and how regularly you use it, etc. It seems like a big factor in page priority is the wording of your title and secondly how established your channel is. For whatever reason, SOME of my underwater stuff seems to be given good page positioning based on what I suspect is a combination of the title and the age and use of the channel. Also, with the most recent 2D 4K Cozumel piece, I've noticed that it keeps moving up on the page on a weekly basis jumping over other older videos with many more views. I recently decided to track to see if these older ones had stopped getting views but in a couple of cases, they hadn't and in one case actually was still getting as many or more views than my film. Nevertheless, last Sunday mine was moved over the top of that one and to the top of the first page using certain search terms. It had started out as about 16th, then moved to 4, then to the top. In the analytics, it says that the majority of views are from their recommendations that they do at the end of other videos. Even more confusing is that the one main one I just jumped over the top of is from a very established channel with far more films than I have and with some that have far more views than I'll probably ever get. So, bottom line, I've come to the conclusion that they don't ding you if you don't allow ads. Also, I've received emails from them saying I qualify for various odds and ends, perks if you will.

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post #13 of 193 Old 12-29-2016, 11:23 AM
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I guess my head is in a different place. I've never looked at that stuff. You show up in my favorites in the Home theater because I subscribe to your channels. Same with Bob and others here. I always figured that 3D, especially has no interest to gain large viewership.

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post #14 of 193 Old 12-29-2016, 12:22 PM
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I guess my head is in a different place. I've never looked at that stuff. You show up in my favorites in the Home theater because I subscribe to your channels. Same with Bob and others here. I always figured that 3D, especially has no interest to gain large viewership.
Totally agree about 3D having a very limited audience. Definitely not mainstream YT material. Also, I suspect that a large percentage of those who do watch it are using anaglyph. I prefer to think of my channel as sort of a boutique channel. With YT, if you want the big view stats, it generally helps to have cute puppies, babies, girls in thong bikinis, or a combination of all three.

I like looking at the analytics once in awhile because I find it interesting seeing where the viewers are. It's such a worldwide medium. When I first started to look at it, I was truely surprised at how many countries were listed as places were the films are being viewed. The other funny thing is the retention stats giving the average viewing time people watch a video. There was a study done a few years back which showed that the average attention span of people, particularly younger ones who grew up in the digital age, is now less than a goldfish- about 11 seconds. Whereas, some people will watch a whole 15 minute video, most of the time the average is probably 3 to 5 minutes. The 7 minute timelapse film has an average of less than 3 minutes. 7 minutes is an eternity for the average YT viewer. The stats will also show you the average viewing time in each different country where you've had views. Also interesting to see that people in some parts of the world have more or less patience than in other parts,
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post #15 of 193 Old 12-30-2016, 12:09 AM
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OK I just looked at a couple of stats and was surprised that I had 463 subscribers and about a quarter million views. That's a lot of people I don't know who get notified when I upload something new. Most popular videos were my longest titles, A documentary of Allure of the Seas and second place was the Bryce Canyon Park, both in 3D. I think the reason for these is that both were picked up by Google Cruise channel and the National Parks Service.

Not a stat but there were several requests for 2D versions which is why I began to upload the Left eye only rendering along with the 3D. Now with the new html5 and YT user selection of 2D or 3D, that is no longer a need.

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post #16 of 193 Old 12-30-2016, 08:56 AM
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OK I just looked at a couple of stats and was surprised that I had 463 subscribers and about a quarter million views. That's a lot of people I don't know who get notified when I upload something new. Most popular videos were my longest titles, A documentary of Allure of the Seas and second place was the Bryce Canyon Park, both in 3D. I think the reason for these is that both were picked up by Google Cruise channel and the National Parks Service.

Not a stat but there were several requests for 2D versions which is why I began to upload the Left eye only rendering along with the 3D. Now with the new html5 and YT user selection of 2D or 3D, that is no longer a need.
Now for some more fun, dig a little deeper into the stats options and see where many of your views are coming from. You can do this on each film separately. You'll probably find that Bryce Canyon, just as an example, has/is getting views from countries you've never imagined- and probably a lot of them.

Don, I think it still is a good idea to upload 2D and 3D versions separately in that, last time I checked when you click on a 3D SBS film from a computer, it will default to anaglyph playback. I suspect that many people aren't aware of how to change the playback settings to 2D. Since my 3D is virtually all shot at 2.7K and downsized to 1080 for 3D and upscaled to 4K for 2D, I will always need two versions.
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post #17 of 193 Old 12-30-2016, 09:45 AM
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Yes, I did dig deeper out of curiosity and found my Allure video had the most views from Brazil. Far more than the US. Another country was Romania. I'm not going to guess why. I even had my first comment from a guy in Germany on my 360 video. I was hoping to get one from the guys at Giroptic in France.

In the html5 2D vs 3D. Here is what I see- my app players min my 3D disk players, both Oppo and Samsung K8500, will automatically see them as 3D and switch the projector to 3D. Never see the anaglyph. If the Samsung is set to auto, then it will upscale the YT SBS to 4K and then present it as SBS videos. Plus since the SBS is sent to the 4K projector as a 4K, there is no option to see it as 3D. 4K 3D is not supported.
Now the anaglyph only shows up when I view the 3D on a computer screen that is not a 3D monitor. Here I can select 2D or 3D anaglyph. Same goes for my ipad and iphone.

You are doing much scaling of your videos. I just shoot native and make my life simple. If I decide to zoom in and crop, it may go a little soft on the large screen but I don't care as for me content trumps minor losses in quality.

I am even shooting more of my stills with the AX53 now and leaving the NEX5n with the 18-200 zoom at home. Everything just works all the way around. My go bag has the Hero 4 Black shooting 4K and the AX53. Batteries filters SD cards monopod and Fiyutek gimbal rounds out the kit. Life on the road is getting simpler but back on board the ship my two large camera bags have 11 cameras, tripod, additional audio stuff and more lenses filters and grip equipment. I may use 30% of it on any trip but it is there if I need it.

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post #18 of 193 Old 12-30-2016, 12:21 PM
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I thought if you checked out those stats you'd find them interesting. Some of the countries we get views from are definitely a surprise.

I made the suggestion for doing separate 2D and 3D uploads because after looking at the stats- which also will dig down into what devices and their percentage used for the views- it became very apparent that most people don't have the kind of great setup that you have. A large percentage of views you'll find are from PCs, and mobile devices. Also, I have a very strong suspicion that if someone clicks on a video from their PC, laptop, or phone, and it comes up anaglyph by default, they won't know how to or realize that they have the ability to change this. Further complicating this is just how inconsistent that YT has been with 3D viewing options.

I really don't find it inconvenient to render my final edits at different res. I just set the project settings at the native 2.7K and render the 3D version down and the 2D 4K version up. Just one additional step and no big deal. The only other requirement, but also really no big deal is doing different opening titles for the two versions. My goal is to strive for absolute maximum quality in both content and video. Might be a character flaw, since it certainly can slow the process down, but it's just what I like to do as I like to challenge myself to try to improve with each new project and make it better than the one before. On the other hand, you do very nice work which is very effective for what you're wanting to use it for and undoubtedly have freed yourself from spending all the extra time that I spend fussing over every detail.
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post #19 of 193 Old 12-31-2016, 03:13 AM
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A couple points, Barry.

While I appreciate the suggestions on how to facilitate the world on how to view your videos on YT, from the beginning, I took a completely different attitude about my amateur productions. It is 180 degrees the opposite of when I was producing TV advertising for clients' commercials and infomercials. The main purpose of what I am doing now is to save a video scrapbook of my travels for personal enjoyment. I only publish to share with people I know and family. If other people happen upon the video and enjoy it, that's OK too but I do not build the program for Neilson Ratings. The only reason why I have a facebook page is because the family uses it. When it comes to 3D, only 2 family members that I know of have 3D TV's and know how to view the YT in 3D. One, that I know of has a 4K Vizio. But it is true, most watch on their iphones. I was the last hold out to switch from a Samsung Android to an iphone of the whole family and I only did that because I wanted an Apple watch. I'll never go back. Anyway, I understand your incentive to create your art in 3D is different from mine but we learn from each other as the technicals remain the same. When I did TV for clients, it was always about viewers and whether they would respond to become customers. In those videos we strived to get the message out in the least amount of time. Instead of covering all the details, create a curiosity, making the viewer contact the client where he could converted to a customer. The way I assembled the programming always raised a question that was NOT answered.

That's why my video projects look more like a personal scrap book of short stories and there is no time limit to telling the event.

It's interesting comparing YT to FB. The most popular videos I have posted on FB have been those about family, not stories of my travels. When it comes to the travel documentaries, the only interest I have received on FB is from an old friend who is also in the video business of shooting inspirational works for charities. He used to work for me as a second cameraman, and a contract editor when I got more work than I could handle. He was an excellent student I could teach and he would get it. When I retired, he bought my one broadcast HD camera and field kit.

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post #20 of 193 Old 12-31-2016, 11:34 AM
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Don, on another topic, I'm wondering if you have any feelings one way or another on shutter angles? Do you generally run and gun on auto or do you sometimes set shutter priority on your camcorders for 180 degrees or less if faster action is involved? Of course, this only pertains to your camcorder shooting and not the action cams which don't have shutter priority abilities. I'm inclined to use the classic 180 degree shutter angle in instances when I have plenty of time to compose and apply a ND if necessary, but often of course run and gun will be with auto. I'm still wrestling with what the best shutter angle is for fast running rivers or cascading water as I was not entirely satisfied with a couple of the non time lapsed 4K video clips of cascading water I used in the Yosemite- High Sierra film. I suspect that 180 or 90 degrees would be OK but don't recall what I did which may have been auto. One of these days, I'll have to see if I can find meta data on those particular clips.

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post #21 of 193 Old 12-31-2016, 01:44 PM
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Have to discuss next year. Time to go make appearance as a Family NYE Party.

Happy New Year to all my friends here in the 3D section.
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post #22 of 193 Old 12-31-2016, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Barry, As you know, shutter angles were meant for physical film camera shutters. IE. 1/48 or 180° shutter angle was (and probably still is) the defacto for 24fps film to avoid judder I believe. In DSLRs that use top/bottom curtains for shutters for video, as I understand it, the sensor is also being scanned 24fps (or whatever fps you are using) while the shutter is left open. I researched this for Gopro, and found out that they don't have a physical shutter, but do pixel line scanning (ie. 1080p would scan 1080 lines). I researched that when I had the genlock problem with gopro 3+ cameras if both are right side up for 3D--causing one eye to be scanned top bottom, while the other bottom up. The genlock was then 180° out of phase, and I could not correct that in Edius when the L/R eyes were combined for stereo, unless I stabilized each eye separately, then combined them. (Though, I think that is a coincidence with your shutter angle question).

Forcing the slowest shutter when using 24fps (or 30fps, but less so for 60fps) is probably the best solution with digital cameras from what I've read, but only if you can set the ISO and aperture, then use an ND filter--no easy to do in Gopro. You will give up sharpness for frame blend blur, though. The issue is also, when scanning the sensor, if the subject is moving, the top lines scanned will expose a slightly different image than the bottom lines scanned. If the sensor is fast enough, though, 1/48 can expose the sensor all at once, causing little cmos warping, but blur the image just enough to blend each frame to avoid judder.

I might be singing to the choir here, but here's a good synopsis of how to handle shutter angle: https://vanillavideo.com/blog/2012/s...ngle-explained
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post #23 of 193 Old 12-31-2016, 03:02 PM
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Bob, I was really only concerned with regard to filming 4K- or 1080- with my Sonys, not the GP as it's effectively beyond control. Generally, even in the digital non film camera era, the 180 degree shutter still seems best overall- IMO. This would mean shutter speed of 1/60th second for 30fps and effectively for 24p as well. For fast moving subjects or where you think you will want to do slomo in post, probably 120th would be good. For 60fps, probably for most situations, 120th is good starting point. I was just struggling a bit to find the best shutter speed for cascading water filmed at 30fps. For the 120fps slomo setting on the camera, 250th probably good in most cases. However, here a fast lens or higher ISO might be essential.

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post #24 of 193 Old 12-31-2016, 04:11 PM
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PS:
Happy New Year everybody!

Big plans for tonight, I'll be home tonight watching movies with my son. Come to think of it, I do that every weekend

Tonight, if I can stay awake until midnight, might set up a camera on the back deck and time lapse the fireworks over the downtown casinos.
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post #25 of 193 Old 01-01-2017, 11:02 AM
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Do you generally run and gun on auto or do you sometimes set shutter priority on your camcorders for 180 degrees or less if faster action is involved?
Barry making shutter angle custom is for the professional cameras. As I have said many times, for what I do, Content is King. That means I depend on the Camera's AUTO setting to take care of my routine settings. In almost all my work now as an amateur, I go for lots of content and don't waste time tinkering with the camera to squeeze that last 1% of quality. More important for me to have 50 average pictures or video clips than 1 or 2 near perfect ones.

Back in the day, when I did my TV shows, and had the budgeted time for a remote setup, I would set up each camera on the set with test equipment, carefully adjust lighting for shadow control as nearly all my shoots were green screen. Use the defaults for shutter angle. I don't even recall my broadcast cameras having that adjustment. Just shutter speed. Single camera green screen are pretty straight forward. 4 cameras very precise lighting was necessary. Today everything I do is based on a clear image on the monitor and then pull the trigger. I worry about the big problems first, like camera shake, then through the glass reflections, and lastly the image judder and motion blur. I have camera shake pretty much under control. Still working on the through the glass reflections. That is the tough one to resolve. Especially with GoPro wide angle lenses.

I don't even have the option on the NEX5n, only shutter speed when in manual.

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Damn, now that does look impressive!! Bob, you go first.
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post #28 of 193 Old 01-06-2017, 07:11 AM
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http://www.insta360.com/product/insta360-pro/

They have samples to view. A little expensive but I would be game if I can confirm my Giroptic360 (a 2K 2D VR camera) brings some real benefit to my projects. So far it looks good as far as popularity with my family content but not so much for documentaries.

$3000 cost would put it in the category of the investment I did in the kit for my Panasonic 3D camera and accessories.

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post #29 of 193 Old 01-06-2017, 07:39 AM
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Is there any info on how you'd edit this and still maintain the meta data necessary for 360 in a VR device, FB, etc.??
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post #30 of 193 Old 01-06-2017, 08:10 AM
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Barry, the metadata can be added once you render the edited 360 stitched video to an MP4 file. There is a tool for that you can download for free. I would imagine that editors like Edius will add a plugin one day to do it automatically. The tool adds the metadata in just a few seconds. It works for Facebook and You Tube as well as the Giroptic player for local playback.

More importantly, you need to see if the camera system offers stitching software because that will be special to each camera configuration. Mine does it in firmware so the output is one file already stitched. This insta360 looks like it saves a file for each camera and then you use their software to stitch the files to a single 360. This would be an extra step before you can edit.

Editing 360 file in Vegas or Edius only requires you use a custom pixel AR, whatever the camera specifies. Mine is 2048 x 1024. That way the left and right edges will stitch in the player. You can edit the video clip with cuts and dissolves. I haven't tried other transitions yet. PIP and adding CG or other 2D images is not that easy but there is a plugin for After Effects now that will do that.

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