SoCal/LAAVA.org Spring 2017 Subwoofer meet - Page 24 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #691 of 724 Old 08-03-2017, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by tvuong View Post
^^ Have you broken in the FV18 yet? It is August now, just saying
I have indeed, and I've started writing my first draft already. I do have some traveling to do this month though, so writing time will be a bit limited in August, but the goal is to get the article published as soon as I can.

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post #692 of 724 Old 08-03-2017, 10:50 AM
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Thank you Marc Alexander for all the hard work and your kind words. Fortunately, we are able to do the measurements outdoors in front of his house as this is not easy in SoCal. I can't do them at my house. It's all Marc doing the measurements and I am just there learning and lending a helping hand for the set up and the heavy lifting. People who have carried one of these 15" plus subs would know that it's not the weight. It is more the awkward size of these subs that even Lebron James would need help moving them around. I am glad to be a part of it because we consumers very rarely get to compare all the top notch ID sub products within a certain price range side by side in the same setting. I consider this a once in a life time opportunity. What I learned from these various testing and listening sessions is invaluable.

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post #693 of 724 Old 08-18-2017, 03:20 AM
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Marc Alexander

We are still patiently waiting for more write ups... It's time to wrap this up!

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post #694 of 724 Old 08-20-2017, 10:22 PM
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more writeups??

display - vizio p65
AVR x4300h +lepai 2ch amp = 7.2.4
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post #695 of 724 Old 08-20-2017, 10:32 PM
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half the gear downstream by now i believe?

my favorite writeup would be a simple rew graph at set voltage or volume

see all the subs wave performance without 2 cents, just watts.

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post #696 of 724 Old 08-21-2017, 02:39 PM
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Is this what you are looking for???

Marc's CEA 2010 Max Burst results that I have, adjusted for RMS:

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post #697 of 724 Old 08-25-2017, 03:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chucky7 View Post
Marc Alexander

We are still patiently waiting for more write ups... It's time to wrap this up!
I know this has really been dragging on. But it has gotten much bigger than I originally anticipated. I'm going to finish the Rythmik/JTR write-ups, but I'm not going to be posting any more measurements. I have previously noted that the EMM-6 mic's poor performance below 25Hz makes those measurements very marginally useful. Tom Vodhanel explained to me that there are some other inaccuracies in these mics (ECM8000, EMM-6, UMM-6, and UMIK-1) when measuring distortion that makes them unsuitable for professional use.

Tom V. made a recommendation for a new measurement rig if I want to get serious about measuring (which I do). I have ordered and am expecting the kit next week.

http://www.audiomatica.com/wp/?page_id=1739

I am going to start leveraging my access to both a sealed, treated, dedicated, upstairs room as well as a large untreated room on concrete for subjective evaluations. Having access to area enthusiasts for GTGs is something else I want to take full advantage of. I want to work closely with all of the ID manufacturers to standardize some objective measurements that are not covered by CEA-2010.

I will revisit the PSA V1801, and MFW-15 Turbo SS subjective comments by listening in the upstairs room (2776ft^3).

I am open to any and all suggestions.
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post #698 of 724 Old 08-25-2017, 03:10 PM
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you a good man marc...hope you get some support and find a way to work with the companies while also being honest. good luck with that
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post #699 of 724 Old 08-25-2017, 03:12 PM
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all I can say is that not everyone has the same priority for what is best.

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post #700 of 724 Old 08-30-2017, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I know this has really been dragging on. But it has gotten much bigger than I originally anticipated. I'm going to finish the Rythmik/JTR write-ups, but I'm not going to be posting any more measurements. I have previously noted that the EMM-6 mic's poor performance below 25Hz makes those measurements very marginally useful. Tom Vodhanel explained to me that there are some other inaccuracies in these mics (ECM8000, EMM-6, UMM-6, and UMIK-1) when measuring distortion that makes them unsuitable for professional use.

Tom V. made a recommendation for a new measurement rig if I want to get serious about measuring (which I do). I have ordered and am expecting the kit next week.

http://www.audiomatica.com/wp/?page_id=1739

I am going to start leveraging my access to both a sealed, treated, dedicated, upstairs room as well as a large untreated room on concrete for subjective evaluations. Having access to area enthusiasts for GTGs is something else I want to take full advantage of. I want to work closely with all of the ID manufacturers to standardize some objective measurements that are not covered by CEA-2010.

I will revisit the PSA V1801, and MFW-15 Turbo SS subjective comments by listening in the upstairs room (2776ft^3).

I am open to any and all suggestions.
Marc, did you do any long term output measurements? Just curious if you did and if not your thoughts on them vs bursts? If you havent seen it I made some posts in the PSA thread that has caused some disagreement. And if anyone can correct me or show me what I am a misunderstanding in what I posted please inform me and correct me so I can learn. Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

I posted other before that but that is the main one. And I will include part of another post to Tom after that here also. Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

"I was asking for your thoughts on long term output, it appears to a better metric than looking at burst for those like me that really push their subs.

And I agree it is only one metric and there are many others we haven't discussed. It is my opinion after looking into it more that the long term outputs are a better metric for my use to look at than bursts numbers that I had focused on in the past.

It was after reading that JL Audio paper I mentioned and linked that I started looking into it more as they talk about compression that happens for many people that push subs hard.

And I looked into it more and posted links that I found so that other might find them of use or interest and they can decide for themselves what they think. I like to learn and have been into audio for close to 27 years starting out back in the early 90s building my own systems in my cars and I still love audio to this day. There is a lot more information out there today than when I started. I remember when I started most people just built an enclosure for their subs going by what the manufacturer recommended as there was not the software out there to model them and if there was I did not know about it or it was prohibitively expensive. The first time I played with any modeling software was back in the late 1990s early 2000s and it was a fascinating experience seeing how everything interacts and affects everything else. And I realize that modeling simulations are not 100% accurate but much better than nothing.

I also posted the info so if I am understanding it incorrectly someone could point it out so I can learn something or understand it so that I or we can all learn more and can make better choices and decisions in the audio world."

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post #701 of 724 Old 08-30-2017, 05:11 PM
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Hello Folks:


Klipsch user here and with an RSW 15 sub. an AVS 15" and 2 single 18"s and 2 dual 18's and 1 single old Fender 18 sub. They are in different places.
I was in LA around mid June but with too much back pain to contemplate the subwoofer GTG.
Anything going on this Labor Day weekend?


Thx all


Brian from New Orleans (NOLA on the Klipsch forums)
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post #702 of 724 Old 08-31-2017, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
Marc, did you do any long term output measurements? Just curious if you did and if not your thoughts on them vs bursts? If you havent seen it I made some posts in the PSA thread that has caused some disagreement. And if anyone can correct me or show me what I am a misunderstanding in what I posted please inform me and correct me so I can learn. Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

I posted other before that but that is the main one. And I will include part of another post to Tom after that here also. Official Power Sound Audio Subwoofer Thread

"I was asking for your thoughts on long term output, it appears to a better metric than looking at burst for those like me that really push their subs.

And I agree it is only one metric and there are many others we haven't discussed. It is my opinion after looking into it more that the long term outputs are a better metric for my use to look at than bursts numbers that I had focused on in the past.

It was after reading that JL Audio paper I mentioned and linked that I started looking into it more as they talk about compression that happens for many people that push subs hard.

And I looked into it more and posted links that I found so that other might find them of use or interest and they can decide for themselves what they think. I like to learn and have been into audio for close to 27 years starting out back in the early 90s building my own systems in my cars and I still love audio to this day. There is a lot more information out there today than when I started. I remember when I started most people just built an enclosure for their subs going by what the manufacturer recommended as there was not the software out there to model them and if there was I did not know about it or it was prohibitively expensive. The first time I played with any modeling software was back in the late 1990s early 2000s and it was a fascinating experience seeing how everything interacts and affects everything else. And I realize that modeling simulations are not 100% accurate but much better than nothing.

I also posted the info so if I am understanding it incorrectly someone could point it out so I can learn something or understand it so that I or we can all learn more and can make better choices and decisions in the audio world."
The tricky part with your comparisons is that you are NOT looking at long term, maximum output. You are looking at the highest measured sweep. That may represent a close proximity of the maximum longer term output vs. frequency, but it might also be 5-15dB short in certain ranges, depending on the measurement type and how far the tester pushed into the maximum. The tests Keith Yates and Ilkka previously used were generally all using reverse sine-sweeps which start at the higher frequencies and end at the lowest. REW's measurement method starts at the lowest frequencies and then rises. A little thinking about how various subwoofers are designed, amplifiers behave, EQ works, and limiters function, will show that the two will not give identical results. This is why Josh Ricci now mostly tests the consumer subwoofers with settings with less EQ or bass extension when doing the compression sweeps.

Jeff & I have long used the TEF25 system which is the same used by Keith Yates in his Way Down Deep series from Ulimate AV Magazine and the related set of value subwoofers in Home Theater Magazine. The TDS measurement process uses a reverse, linear-swept sine rather than a linear sweep, thereby spending much more time in the upper octave than the bottom, and starting at the higher frequency limit of the measurement vs the low end. There are advantages to both approaches, but a reverse sweep is much more conducive to subwoofer measurement as the first signal input is less likely to hit a limiter or heat up the woofer. A reverse sweep also allows you to see what output is available in the upper bass octave before you hit the excursion and power limited range at lower frequencies.

Honestly such info is of more use to a product designer like myself or someone trying to figure out what was done in a product than to the end user, but with a little experience, pushing further into the limits of the sub with sine-sweeps, including the limits of the upper octave, do give much more information on how a product will sound due to how the behavior shifts with increasing levels. Remember the subtle changes you might see in compression sweeps are only a sampling of a complex signal, so it makes perfect sense for changes observed here to be more significant in real use.

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood..." Daniel H. Burnham
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post #703 of 724 Old 08-31-2017, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
The tricky part with your comparisons is that you are NOT looking at long term, maximum output. You are looking at the highest measured sweep. That may represent a close proximity of the maximum longer term output vs. frequency, but it might also be 5-15dB short in certain ranges, depending on the measurement type and how far the tester pushed into the maximum. The tests Keith Yates and Ilkka previously used were generally all using reverse sine-sweeps which start at the higher frequencies and end at the lowest. REW's measurement method starts at the lowest frequencies and then rises. A little thinking about how various subwoofers are designed, amplifiers behave, EQ works, and limiters function, will show that the two will not give identical results. This is why Josh Ricci now mostly tests the consumer subwoofers with settings with less EQ or bass extension when doing the compression sweeps.

Jeff & I have long used the TEF25 system which is the same used by Keith Yates in his Way Down Deep series from Ulimate AV Magazine and the related set of value subwoofers in Home Theater Magazine. The TDS measurement process uses a reverse, linear-swept sine rather than a linear sweep, thereby spending much more time in the upper octave than the bottom, and starting at the higher frequency limit of the measurement vs the low end. There are advantages to both approaches, but a reverse sweep is much more conducive to subwoofer measurement as the first signal input is less likely to hit a limiter or heat up the woofer. A reverse sweep also allows you to see what output is available in the upper bass octave before you hit the excursion and power limited range at lower frequencies.

Honestly such info is of more use to a product designer like myself or someone trying to figure out what was done in a product than to the end user, but with a little experience, pushing further into the limits of the sub with sine-sweeps, including the limits of the upper octave, do give much more information on how a product will sound due to how the behavior shifts with increasing levels. Remember the subtle changes you might see in compression sweeps are only a sampling of a complex signal, so it makes perfect sense for changes observed here to be more significant in real use.
Thank you, Mark, for the information. I really enjoy reading your posts. You have so much knowledge to share(wisdom might be a better term)

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post #704 of 724 Old 08-31-2017, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I want to work closely with all of the ID manufacturers to standardize some objective measurements that are not covered by CEA-2010.



I am open to any and all suggestions.

I like the direct at the cone measurements, which tells me what the sub is doing.........the effects of distance are well known for decibel difference calculations. At the cone tells me exactly what is happening, I can then convert that to a distance DB level I might use as a consumer. Which could be 2 inches behind my chair or 16 feet away up front.

Also, it seems to me anyway, the farther the mic is from the speaker the more critical the testing environment becomes at 6 foot away, the probability of a bird flying by has a chance to be read on the mic, but a mic at 2 inches from the cone it would take quite a bit more to show on the mic when max testing.

I saw soo many measurement variables when first learning/shopping/looking....from various distances and enviroments to not listing under what distance or room variable/environment it was tested at all.


There could be a very valid reason this is not done........

Link to budget Home Theater build

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post #705 of 724 Old 08-31-2017, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
I like the direct at the cone measurements, which tells me what the sub is doing.........the effects of distance are well known for decibel difference calculations. At the cone tells me exactly what is happening, I can then convert that to a distance DB level I might use as a consumer. Which could be 2 inches behind my chair or 16 feet away up front.

Also, it seems to me anyway, the farther the mic is from the speaker the more critical the testing environment becomes at 6 foot away, the probability of a bird flying by has a chance to be read on the mic, but a mic at 2 inches from the cone it would take quite a bit more to show on the mic when max testing.

I saw soo many measurement variables when first learning/shopping/looking....from various distances and enviroments to not listing under what distance or room variable/environment it was tested at all.


There could be a very valid reason this is not done........

Have you read through this http://www.data-bass.com/know-how

Some snippets with highlights in red that might answer your question.

"Increasing the microphone distance from 1 meters back to 2 meters conveniently reduces the SPL by 6dB back to a level equivalent to a 1m anechoic or free-space measurement. It also has the added effect of allowing all of the radiation from a system that may have multiple radiation points to blend better at the microphone. With many larger sub systems the enclosure itself is large enough and the distance between radiation elements is large enough that the system itself is providing some loading to the output of the system delivered to a microphone at only 1m distance. Effectively it could still be in a quasi nearfield environment. Also the distance between radiation points on the system may be large enough to account for a significant percentage of the 1m distance which will misrepresent the total output makeup of the system by exaggeratting the output of the closest radiator and underrepresenting the output of those further away relative to each other. Some extremely large systems can still exhibit some effect at 2 meters. For these reasons the standard distance used is 2 meters and not 1m as it represents too many compromises for larger systems.

Test Procedure

1. A raw 1 watt (nominal fixed voltage)/1 meter response measurement with no signal shaping. This test is only performed on passive systems. (Note: Originally this test involved 1w maximum input power calculated using the impedance measurement taken of the driver/s in the enclosure. The minimum impedance measured in the subs intended pass band was used to calculate what voltage input will generate 1w of power into the load at the minimum impedance point. This limits the DUT to receiving no more than 1 watt of power at any point in the intended frequency range of use. Other methods of using a fixed voltage such as 2.83v without regard for the enclosures complex impedance profile can lead to apparent advantages for lower impedance cabinets as they will in reality be receiving higher power during the measurement but does not account for the fact that the maximum voltage available from an amplifier into the lower impedance is usually less. The method used here we believe represents a better indicator of true efficiency and some indication of how difficult of a load the speaker will present to an amplifier. However this resulted in odd voltages being used like 1.8v, 3v, etc...After being asked multiple times to standardize the voltages it was decided to settle on voltages of 1 volt for 1ohm systems, 1.41 volts for 2 ohm, 2 volts for 4 ohm, 2.83 volts for 8ohm and 4 volts for 16ohm systems. The impedance of the systems is still determined by looking at the minimum impedance measured between 10 and 200hz. Whichever range the minimum impedance of the system is closer to dictates what type of impedance it will be considered. For example a system with a Z min of 1.3 ohms would be considered a 1ohm system not a 2ohm system. A system with a zmin of 6 ohms would recieve 2.83 volts and be considered an 8 ohm system, but one with a Z min of 4.8 ohms would be considered a 4 ohm system. In this way it prevents inflated sensitivity ratings by testing 2 ohm systems with a full 2.83 volts for example. Obviously this is not perfect but by looking at the measured data and the voltage supplied one can calculate what the system would measure at a different voltage input anyway.) The results of this type of measurement give insight into how loud the system will be with a specified input voltage and in conjunction with the impedance measurement can give an idea of system efficiency and how heavy of a load the speaker is on the amplifier driving it. Bear in mind that this does not indicate necessarily which system will be louder as that also depends on compression effects, thermal heating and driver excursion limits. It does however allow you to calculate the maximum potential output with a specific amount of amplifier voltage.

2. A raw 100 watt nominal(10x the 1 meter voltage) / 10 meter response measurement with no signal shaping. The voltage is increased by 10X over what was used for the 1w/1m sensitivity test and the microphone is moved back to a 10 meter distance. This is to get a look at the response shape at a greater distance where the effects of a large baffle or enclosure, or widely spaced radiation points on the system response should be mitigated and the power is increased to a higher level, which could start indicating some compression or variation on the FR in some less robust systems. This also gives a glimpse at far field performance if the speaker is intended for use in large spaces at high volume and allows for far better integration of the output of systems having multiple radiators. This test is also only performed on passive systems. This measurement should be examined just as the 1 meter sensitivity measurement and in fact comparison of the two measurements from different distances is often helpful to gauge nearfield effects from the proximity of the DUT to the microphone at a 1m distance. In general the 10 meter higher power sensitivity measurement is found more useful and accurate to describe the system behavior because of this."

A 2 meter distance is chosen for measuring/reporting purposes instead of 1 meter for a number of reasons as well. The CEA-2010 documentation appears to show that the reporting methods were primarily intended or marketed to smaller home audio powered subwoofers, but this type of testing actually was used by Mr. Keele long before the documentation made it a standard and it is not limited in usefullness to only subwoofers, bass systems and or active speakers. It can be used with full range and much larger more powerful devices as well. Here at Data-Bass the subwoofers tested may range from a tiny sealed 8" subwoofer to a behemoth horn loaded monster with multiple 18's intended for arenas...With these larger cabinets and subwoofers having multiple points of radiation a 1 meter distance may still be in the nearfield of large cabinets and the size of the enclosure itself can artificially boost the SPL recorded at such a close distance. Also if the cabinet has drivers or radiation points on differing enclosure faces it is impossible to aim all of the output at the microphone and you may end up with one radiator at a much greater distance from the microphone element than another which can skew the response shape and under represent the output power of the device. Moving the microphone back a further distance to 2 meters helps mitigate some of these effects of large cabinets and allows the the output of multiple radiating surfaces to blend together better by minimizing the difference in distance to the microphone element to a larger extent. Also a ground plane measurement is what is known as a half space measurement because there is just the one endless boundary under the microphone and DUT which provides a near perfect 6dB increase in output over anechoic or full space. Using the inverse square law we know that if the microphone is moved back to 2x the distance from the DUT the output should drop by 6dB. So by reporting results at 2 meters instead of at 1 meter the 6dB drop from the inverse square law cancels out the 6dB gain from measuring in halfspace versus full space and what you end up with is output that is approximate to a 1 meter anechoic or fullspace measurement. Yet another reason to measure at 2 meters is to allow headroom in the microphone signal chain. Some of the larger more powerful bass systems tested easily produce outputs in excess of 130dB at 2 meters which would put them in the neighborhood of 140dB at 1 meter which can start to cause issues with clipping in the microphone preamp and soundcard input. In fact a few of the most powerful systems have needed to be measured at 4 meters to ensure that there was sufficient headroom in the measurement chain!
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post #706 of 724 Old 09-07-2017, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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While the GTG is long over and I named my favorites, I am just getting started.


OVERALL
1a. JTR CAPTIVATOR 118HT
1b. JTR CAPTIVATOR 1400 (2015)
2. RYTHMIK FV18
3. PSA V1801
4. SEATON SOUND MFW-15 TURBO

Sound Quality
1. RYTHMIK FV18
2. JTR CAPTIVATOR 118HT
3. JTR CAPTIVATOR 1400 (2015)
4. PSA V1801
5. SEATON SOUND MFW-15 TURBO

Tactile Response
1. JTR CAPTIVATOR 1400 (2015)
1. JTR CAPTIVATOR 118HT
2. PSA V1801
4. SEATON SOUND MFW-15 TURBO
5. RYTHMIK FV18

I was dissapointed in the innacuracy of the cheap UMM-6 and UMIK-1 mics below 20Hz. I also want to get more serious about testing. Tom Vodhanel pointed me to a rig that will allow me to take much more accurate measurements. The <a href="http://www.audiomatica.com/wp/?page_id=1739" target="_blank">Audiomatica Clio Pocket</a>. I was told by the mic calibrator that there is no calibration file but they check each mic to ensure ±1dB 20Hz-10kHz and ±2dB 10-20Hz. I asked specifically about &lt;20Hz and she told me that the mic should stay ±1dB down to 5Hz.

I hope to work with the ID sub designers and the AVS community to develop some objective metrics with which to measure. I believe GTGs are the best format for subjective impressions.

Not only do I have the luxury of being able to perform CEA-2010 measurements but I also have multiple listening environments. Moving forward I plan to use both the large (7500ft³) untreated room downstairs and the smaller (2776ft³), sealed &amp; treated media room upstairs for both objective measurements and subjective listening.

The GTG was held downstairs and outside only which pushed the smaller subs past their limits and was not indicative of performance in all rooms. PSA pointed out that the V1801 should not have been evaluated in the same class as the larger JTR and Rythmik subs.

My desire is to remeasure and re-evaluate these subs leveraging the two listening environments and more accurate measurements. I'm hoping to reach a consensus among the ID manufacturers for an objective evaluation of port noise.

I will also get manufacturers input regarding the class of sub they believe their offering should be compared. For example. I am placing the PSA V1801 at the top of the list of living room ported subs. I plan to have full measurements and subjective impressions for the following (in alphabetical order)

Living room ported subs
HSU VTF-15H.2
PSA V1801
SEATON SOUND MFW-15 TURBO

Dedicated media room ported subs:
RYTHMIK FV18
JTR CAPTIVATOR 118HT
JTR CAPTIVATOR 1400
PSA V3601

Dedicated home cinema ported subs:
RYTHMIK FV25
JTR CAPTIVATOR 2400 ULF
JTR CAPTIVATOR 218HT*

Ultimate ported subs (10Hz):
JTR CAPTIVATOR 4000 ULF*
SEATON SOUND TERAFORM?

*no immediate plans for testing.

This is all a work in progress. At the moment I still have access to all of the subs except the Cap 118HT. The first things I would like to do is listen to the V1801, FV18, and Cap 1400 upstairs. I believe the V1801 &amp; FV18 will perform better and the Cap 1400 may be too much for the room. I will invite other AVS members to listen as well.

I welcome any ideas and criticisms (go easy on me please). This is not meant to prop up or degrade any manufacturers. I wish to provide unbiased services to both the ID manufacturers and the consumers.

I will return this project Saturday after the AVS GTG at CEDIA. I will be editing the impressions of the MFW-15T &amp; V18O1 as well as posting and editing impressions of the Rythmik and JTRs.

I also have several sealed subs to eval. I believe there is more than enough data to justify a dedicated website.

I had planned to test the JTR Cap 2400 ULF next but I showed my wife and she wants to replace our two Seaton MFWs downstairs with one JTR 2400 ULF in premium veneer. I have a furniture sample on its way to JTR now. I'll explain the new setup (includes large nearfield MBM) in more detail once I figure out how to use sketchup or the sub arrives (most likely the latter).
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Last edited by Marc Alexander; 09-07-2017 at 12:24 PM.
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post #707 of 724 Old 09-07-2017, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
While the GTG is long over and I named my favorites, I am just getting started.


OVERALL
1a. JTR CAPTIVATOR 118HT
1b. JTR CAPTIVATOR 1400 (2015)
2. RYTHMIK FV18
3. PSA V1801
4. SEATON SOUND MFW-15 TURBO

Sound Quality
1. RYTHMIK FV18
2. JTR CAPTIVATOR 118HT
3. JTR CAPTIVATOR 1400 (2015)
4. PSA V1801
5. SEATON SOUND MFW-15 TURBO

Tactile Response
1. JTR CAPTIVATOR 1400 (2015)
1. JTR CAPTIVATOR 118HT
2. PSA V1801
4. SEATON SOUND MFW-15 TURBO
5. RYTHMIK FV18

I was dissapointed in the innacuracy of the cheap UMM-6 and UMIK-1 mics below 20Hz. I also want to get more serious about testing. Tom Vodhanel pointed me to a rig that will allow me to take much more accurate measurements. The <a href="http://www.audiomatica.com/wp/?page_id=1739" target="_blank">Audiomatica Clio Pocket</a>. I was told by the mic calibrator that there is no calibration file but they check each mic to ensure ±1dB 20Hz-10kHz and ±2dB 10-20Hz. I asked specifically about <20Hz and she told me that the mic should stay ±1dB down to 5Hz.

I hope to work with the ID sub designers and the AVS community to develop some objective metrics with which to measure. I believe GTGs are the best format for subjective impressions.

Not only do I have the luxury of being able to perform CEA-2010 measurements but I also have multiple listening environments. Moving forward I plan to use both the large (7500ft³) untreated room downstairs and the smaller (2776ft³), sealed & treated media room upstairs for both objective measurements and subjective listening.

The GTG was held downstairs and outside only which pushed the smaller subs past their limits and was not indicative of performance in all rooms. PSA pointed out that the V1801 should not have been evaluated in the same class as the larger JTR and Rythmik subs.

My desire is to remeasure and re-evaluate these subs leveraging the two listening environments and more accurate measurements. I'm hoping to reach a consensus among the ID manufacturers for an objective evaluation of port noise.

I will also get manufacturers input regarding the class of sub they believe their offering should be compared. For example. I am placing the PSA V1801 at the top of the list of living room ported subs. I plan to have full measurements and subjective impressions for the following (in alphabetical order)

Living room ported subs
HSU VTF-15H.2
PSA V1801
SEATON SOUND MFW-15 TURBO

Dedicated media room ported subs:
RYTHMIK FV18
JTR CAPTIVATOR 118HT
JTR CAPTIVATOR 1400
PSA V3601

Dedicated home cinema ported subs:
RYTHMIK FV25
JTR CAPTIVATOR 2400 ULF
JTR CAPTIVATOR 218HT*

Ultimate ported subs (10Hz):
JTR CAPTIVATOR 4000 ULF*
SEATON SOUND TERAFORM?

*no immediate plans for testing.

This is all a work in progress. At the moment I still have access to all of the subs except the Cap 118HT. The first things I would like to do is listen to the V1801, FV18, and Cap 1400 upstairs. I believe the V1801 & FV18 will perform better and the Cap 1400 may be too much for the room. I will invite other AVS members to listen as well.

I welcome any ideas and criticisms (go easy on me please). This is not meant to prop up or degrade any manufacturers. I wish to provide unbiased services to both the ID manufacturers and the consumers.

I will return this project Saturday after the AVS GTG at CEDIA. I will be editing the impressions of the MFW-15T & V18O1 as well as posting and editing impressions of the Rythmik and JTRs.

I also have several sealed subs to eval. I believe there is more than enough data to justify a dedicated website.

I had planned to test the JTR Cap 2400 ULF next but I showed my wife and she wants to replace our two Seaton MFWs downstairs with one JTR 2400 ULF in premium veneer. I have a furniture sample on its way to JTR now. I'll explain the new setup (includes large nearfield MBM) in more detail once I figure out how to use sketchup or the sub arrives (most likely the latter).


Perhaps a price point, and other aspects such as ease integration may be valuable as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #708 of 724 Old 09-07-2017, 12:59 PM
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I'm putting a Cap 1400, with custom veneer, in my living room.
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post #709 of 724 Old 09-07-2017, 02:35 PM
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@Marc Alexander So the F18 Seatons don't make any of the lists in your last post or did you do sealed subs separately? This thread has gotten so long but I do remember them being in some of your past rankings in this thread.

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post #710 of 724 Old 09-07-2017, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
Ultimate ported subs (10Hz):
JTR CAPTIVATOR 4000 ULF*
SEATON SOUND TERAFORM?
I see a ? after the Teraform, so does that mean it might still be available? Mark showed me one of those cabinets in his warehouse, but his comments made it seem as though he wouldn't be producing any more of them. I had never seen a 6th order bandpass alignment before, so I was immediately drawn to it (just 'cause it was different, of course). Like the 4000, make sure you have a lot of space to install one of those bad boys.

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post #711 of 724 Old 09-15-2017, 02:09 PM
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And it's alive!!! Or is it???

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post #712 of 724 Old 09-15-2017, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
@Marc Alexander So the F18 Seatons don't make any of the lists in your last post or did you do sealed subs separately? This thread has gotten so long but I do remember them being in some of your past rankings in this thread.
I posted some sealed sub measurements separately in another thread. (PSA S3000i vs Seaton Submersive).

I have been getting to know the Clio Pocket which should provide much more accurate measurements. I will repeat measurements when possible, adding small sealed room and large open room measurements to 2m GP.
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post #713 of 724 Old 09-15-2017, 10:29 PM
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The following is a compilation of the ported subs' CEA 2010 Max Burst numbers by Marc around the GTG:



Since data-bass tested the JTR Captivator 118HT and so did Marc, I am able to correlate Marc numbers with those on Data-bass. "DB - Converted" are adjusted Marc's numbers so that they are more apples to apples so to speak.
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Last edited by chucky7; 09-16-2017 at 12:33 AM.
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post #714 of 724 Old 10-02-2017, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post
I know this has really been dragging on. But it has gotten much bigger than I originally anticipated. I'm going to finish the Rythmik/JTR write-ups, but I'm not going to be posting any more measurements. I have previously noted that the EMM-6 mic's poor performance below 25Hz makes those measurements very marginally useful. Tom Vodhanel explained to me that there are some other inaccuracies in these mics (ECM8000, EMM-6, UMM-6, and UMIK-1) when measuring distortion that makes them unsuitable for professional use.

Tom V. made a recommendation for a new measurement rig if I want to get serious about measuring (which I do). I have ordered and am expecting the kit next week.

http://www.audiomatica.com/wp/?page_id=1739

I am going to start leveraging my access to both a sealed, treated, dedicated, upstairs room as well as a large untreated room on concrete for subjective evaluations. Having access to area enthusiasts for GTGs is something else I want to take full advantage of. I want to work closely with all of the ID manufacturers to standardize some objective measurements that are not covered by CEA-2010.

I will revisit the PSA V1801, and MFW-15 Turbo SS subjective comments by listening in the upstairs room (2776ft^3).

I am open to any and all suggestions.
So where is the final evaluation on the new 18" Rythmik sub? It's been a long time coming.
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post #715 of 724 Old 10-02-2017, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Freddy Ford View Post
So where is the final evaluation on the new 18" Rythmik sub? It's been a long time coming.
If you want to know, PM me and I will tell you what I know...

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post #716 of 724 Old 10-03-2017, 09:02 PM
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^^ No need to take this to PM. Spell it all out here. That is what GtG for that I am sure folk appreciates reading about it. After all, good or bad is just your own opinion/experience.
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post #717 of 724 Old 10-04-2017, 12:12 AM
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The following is my opinion after hearing and testing the 18" ported subs at various occasions. My ranking is very similar to Marc's. Basically, the most expensive products scored better.

1. JTR Cap 1400, 2015 version ( $2150 shipped ).
2. JTR Cap 118HT ( $1750 shipped ).
3. Rythmik FV18 ( $1700 shipped ).
4. PSA V1801 ( $1400 shipped ).

Rather than doing a full review of the 4 18" ported subs here, which I am not that capable of doing, I would use a Q&A format.

Q: Which one do you like the best?

A: Of course the 2015 JTR Cap 1400 (Mine! Mine! Mine!). It's at least $400 more expensive than the other subs. It has the least cons. It has the most output across almost all frequencies. It also produced the most TR and desirable port wind and the least chuffing. It is just a step above the other 3. No doubt about it.

Q: Would you say any of the 4 subs sounded bad?

A: Of course not. If the best sounding sub received a score of 100, then the worst sounding sub would get a score of 85. Different, yes. Night and day, not really. We are talking about the top ID subs in the price range of $1400 to $2150 here. I can't imagine anyone would be unhappy if he has any of the 4 ported subs.

Q: Which one would you say has the most bang for the buck?

A: In terms of overall performance per dollar, the 4 products are pretty close. Basically, you do get what you paid for. Strictly output per dollar, probably JTR Cap 1400.

Q: What's wrong with PSA V1801? Is it pretty close to JTR Cap 118HT?

A: There is nothing wrong with it. It did not have as high output down low because its cabinet is the smallest. A larger cabinet should improve its output down low. The port design is definitely not as good as the other 3 subs here and it is the most likely to chuff. Can it be improved? Maybe not at this size. Apparently PSA's design goal here is to put an 18" driver into the smallest ported cabinet with the lowest tuning frequency possible. Therefore, it also has the lowest ceiling. Now, if I had a hard budget of $1400, or if my wife only allowed a small sub and I have to have an 18" one, I would gladly take PSA V1801 and be very happy. It is definitely not close to JTR Cap 118HT but it is $350 cheaper!

Q: Your table shows that the Rythmik FV18 has more output than the JTR Cap 118HT, and Marc seems to like how it sounds the best. How come it did not fare better than the JTR Cap 118HT?

A: Good question. The SQ among them are close enough that makes the other aspects the determinant for the final ranking. The Speakerpower amp on the JTR Cap 118HT is just more user friendly, and idiot proof. The Rythmik amp has too many knobs and switches. If my newbie friend were to get a Rythmik FV18, I would be worried if he messes it up. Yes, Rythmik FV18 did garner the highest mark for SQ from Marc. Yes, it does sound very much like a sealed sub. But at what cost? It has the least TR, by far. It is also the largest sub among the four! If I wanted to get a ported sub that sounds like a sealed sub, I might as well just get a sealed sub that is way smaller and cheaper! If you are expecting the grunt and brute force from a ported sub, you might be yearning for more. Therefore, if I wanted to get a ported sub to rock my neighbor's house, I would choose the other 3 subs. If I were converting from the world of sealed subs, then the Rythmik FV18 would be an easy choice because it is not too far from my comfort zone. It is unfortunate that the Rythmik FV18 was out of commission on the day of GTG. Otherwise, many attendees would have liked what they heard. The Rythmik FV18 has a steeper learning curve than the other 3 here. However, once dialed in, it will satisfy even the most discerning ears!

Q: JTR Captivators have been rated the best for movies among many previous GTGs. Can you shed some light here?

A: It's true. It's true. The CEA 2010 numbers can only tell you so much. JTR's subs are much much more than those CEA 2010 numbers. Jeff really has figured out so far the best combination of output, extension, SQ, TR, and desirable port wind but not obnoxious chuffing here. The Captivators do provide a very compelling ULF package. The improved damping of 2017 Captivator cabinets work wonderfully. I look forward to listening to Marc's JTR Cap 2400ULF. I only wish I could audition a sealed JTR Captivator.

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Last edited by chucky7; 10-04-2017 at 07:02 PM.
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post #718 of 724 Old 10-04-2017, 06:22 PM
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^^ Great write up. Thanks for your time .
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post #719 of 724 Old 10-07-2017, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Alexander View Post


In full disclosure, I am running (4) Seaton F18+ in my dedicated, upstairs media room. I am looking to sell the Seaton MFW-15 Turbos to allow me to purchase a single JTR Captivator 2400 for my downstairs den.
I am waiting on your Seaton reports about those Sealed subs, if you have chance.
It is appreciated for All your sharing gentlemen !

Last edited by ceeyaa; 10-08-2017 at 12:54 PM.
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post #720 of 724 Old 10-07-2017, 08:32 PM
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I am waiting on your Seaton reports about those Sealed subs, if you have chance.
It is appreciated for All your sharing gentlemen !
I doubt Marc is going to report on the sealed subs because they were not the subject of this subwoofer meet. We measured the sealed subs but only listened to the Seaton F18s.

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Last edited by chucky7; 10-08-2017 at 12:12 PM.
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