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post #4471 of 4490 Old 05-08-2015, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
Hmm I haven't quite been sold on Atmos. From the main listening position I already get a pretty 3 dimensional sound. Maybe I just need to hear a demo in a normal room that blows me away. Anyone heard a demo in a normal space that really made them have to have it?
I wouldn't say I've heard it in a "normal space", but I've heard several CEDIA demos, and I was sold. It's not for everybody or for every room, but the effect is absolutely impressive. It isn't just about 3D - it's about being completely surrounded by sound. Having speakers in a ring around you really doesn't do that. Until you hear it, you just won't really understand what that "black hole" above you sounds like.

The funny part is I'd just been to CEDIA and heard a couple of the big demos, but stopped into Best Buy to pick up a little Marantz receiver for the living room. They guy ask if I've heard ATMOS, and I explained that I'm in the industry and just been to CEDIA, but that I'd love to hear what they have. So, he runs me through demo, and I'll be damned if that wasn't also pretty impressive. The amazing part is that it was just the ATMOS-enabled "topper" speakers on their Def Tech mains, i.e. not dedicated in-ceilng overhead speakers.

I didn't want to argue with Darren when he bitched about it a couple of weeks ago, but I really do think that if you have the right setup (room size, layout, speakers and speaker arrangement, seating distance), the ATMOS-enabled thing is definitely a viable option.

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post #4472 of 4490 Old 05-08-2015, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ecrabb View Post

I didn't want to argue with Darren when he bitched about it a couple of weeks ago, but I really do think that if you have the right setup (room size, layout, speakers and speaker arrangement, seating distance), the ATMOS-enabled thing is definitely a viable option.

Cheers,
SC
You can argue all you want, that's the point of having these discussions. I still firmly believe if you design a room to be acoustically sound (pun intended) the Atmos topper speakers won't be very effective. Or if you design a room for Atmos topper speakers you should prepare yourself for less than average 2-channel or unconverted Atmos performance. I'm sure Atmos topper speakers work great if you have a highly reflective ceiling like in a Best Buy demo room, but that is the very thing that kills a 2-channel sound stage and center channel performance. In a treated room like mine, Atmos topper speakers would be as worthless as a pile of bird sh*t on a pump handle.
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post #4473 of 4490 Old 05-08-2015, 10:11 AM
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You can argue all you want, that's the point of having these discussions. I still firmly believe if you design a room to be acoustically sound (pun intended) the Atmos topper speakers won't be very effective. Or if you design a room for Atmos topper speakers you should prepare yourself for less than average 2-channel or unconverted Atmos performance. I'm sure Atmos topper speakers work great if you have a highly reflective ceiling like in a Best Buy demo room, but that is the very thing that kills a 2-channel sound stage and center channel performance. In a treated room like mine, Atmos topper speakers would be as worthless as a pile of bird sh*t on a pump handle.
Of course it won't work in a room like yours. Your room is about as far from typical as it gets. The gist that I got from your earlier post was along the lines of "all rooms should really be treated like mine or they'll sound like sh*t, and the toppers won't work in a treated room, so what the hell is the point?"

The thing is, there are a great many rooms which don't have treated ceilings. In fact, I know of almost no rooms - even around these crazy AVS parts - who do. I never treated my old room's ceiling, and I didn't have a high ceiling, and it was still a decent sounding room. It really depends on your speakers, but most don't have enough vertical dispersion to seriously put the ceiling in play like a side-wall two foot away - unless you're using very tall speakers and the tweeters are at 6 feet off the floor or something.

A center channel? In most systems, it's 2-3 feet off the floor - at most. You shouldn't be getting much of a reflection off the ceiling from that unless your speaker's off-axis dispersion is nearly the same as on-axis - like a point source.

In your case, where you're über-concerned with two-channel performance, and where you're chasing "audiophile" level room performance, and you've treated every surface, and you use large towers, and you've probably done little or nothing in the design to affect vertical dispersion (or even know what it is), then yes - the ceiling becomes critical. Clearly, in your situation, the toppers aren't going to work.

But... For the other 99% of people who aren't chasing that acoustic ideal, whose main focus is home theater... So, for living room setups, media-room setups, or even in dedicated rooms that aren't AT setups... I still think it's a very viable solution. Not only that, in some ways, the reflected diffused sound is a better surround effect than actual overhead speakers.

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post #4474 of 4490 Old 05-08-2015, 10:47 AM
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The gist that I got from your earlier post was along the lines of "all rooms should really be treated like mine or they'll sound like sh*t, and the toppers won't work in a treated room, so what the hell is the point?"
I'm sorry you felt that way. I certainly never felt I have pushed my room design or room treatments on anyone. I was only trying to state from my research the importance I learned about treating all first reflection points, including the ceiling and how that directly conflicts with the idea of Atmos topper speakers.
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post #4475 of 4490 Old 05-08-2015, 10:51 AM
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Thanks Ecrabb, that's good feedback. However I really would want to hear it in an average room to see if the difference was worth it. I've heard the derived height channels that Yamaha had (and may still do) and it didn't do a whole lot for me. Yes I expect Atmos to be better, but even then I'm skeptical.

What exactly do you mean by toppers? I'm assuming that is indicating where the speakers are placed (above the L/R?). In a typical room are they encouraging these to be mounted in ceiling and down firing? Or mounted above the screen on the front wall? Sorry for my ignorance I just haven't done a lot of research into the tech.

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post #4476 of 4490 Old 05-08-2015, 10:55 AM
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...and you've probably done little or nothing in the design to affect vertical dispersion (or even know what it is)
BTW, I do.

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post #4477 of 4490 Old 05-08-2015, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeahrens View Post
What exactly do you mean by toppers? I'm assuming that is indicating where the speakers are placed (above the L/R?). In a typical room are they encouraging these to be mounted in ceiling and down firing? Or mounted above the screen on the front wall? Sorry for my ignorance I just haven't done a lot of research into the tech.
I believe the toppers are speaker modules placed on top of the L/R speakers and point up towards the ceiling. Atlantic makes some of them.

http://www.atlantictechnology.com/pr...systems/44-da/

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post #4478 of 4490 Old 05-08-2015, 11:06 AM
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Excellent that's what I figured from the term. So is that considered "optimal" for Atmos? It doesn't seem like it would be. Seems like it would effect dispersion and imaging from L/R. Sorry not meaning to sound negative on the tech, just the idea of putting speakers on the L/R seems off.

Edit: I see in the link they have them on a shelf as well. I wonder if you could you mount them on shelves beside the screen? Would the imaging still work?

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post #4479 of 4490 Old 05-08-2015, 11:31 AM
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From what I've read the topper is not the optimal setup for Atmos, in ceiling speakers are preferred. Although this is a recent review of the above mentioned Atlantic toppers.

http://hometheaterreview.com/atlanti...dule-reviewed/

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post #4480 of 4490 Old 05-08-2015, 01:50 PM
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This link highlights the difference in placement for the "toppers" vs. in ceiling speakers:

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dol...tup/index.html

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post #4481 of 4490 Old 05-08-2015, 02:02 PM
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This link highlights the difference in placement for the "toppers" vs. in ceiling speakers:

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/guide/dol...tup/index.html
Thank you sir. Hmm if I were to go with a ceiling configuration I'd probably have to build boxes to enclose in wall speakers and then attach the box to the studs. There's no good access to the ceiling without tearing our the dry wall. Since I'm still looking for a set of speakers to get to 7.1 and would need an Atmos processor + amplification, that will be a ways off if I decide to even go that route.


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post #4482 of 4490 Old 05-15-2015, 08:51 AM
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If anyone is interested, the UHD Blu ray specs have been completed and products will probably be shipping by year end. So now you guys really have your work cut out, upgrading to Atmos and UHD Blu ray!
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post #4483 of 4490 Old 05-15-2015, 01:50 PM
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I saw mention of that on one of the tech sites. I wonder if they are doing anything with actually encoding scope material anamorphically. There was talk of that happening in the CIH forums. Although with that many pixels I'm not certain that I could justify the cost of a lens even then. Ideally I really wish the industry would start putting 21:9 panels in projectors. I know they tried it with TV's with little success, but I really think that the projector market would better embrace it. Really not much downside to doing it. If overspill was an issue with 16:9 setups, a simple masking system in the lens assembly would take care of it. Shifting aspect ratio films would be easily accommodated.

Anyway my first step will be to get a player once they hit the < $500 range and then preamp. The last upgrade being the projector (hopefully the 4k projectors will be affordable by then).

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post #4484 of 4490 Old 05-22-2015, 08:42 AM
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Has anyone heard the svs prime speakers? I'd love to hear them, they interest me for my next theater. Currently B&W 600 series are the ones I've heard that I'm most interested in.
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post #4485 of 4490 Old 05-23-2015, 08:15 AM
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Hey, Iowa peeps! Checking in from Utah where it's raining like it did in Iowa. I feel like we brought it along!

My buddy back in Des Moines just had his lamp go down on his Epson 8350 again. He's put three lamps in it a little too recently and barely got a 1000 hours out of the last one. He's ready to upgrade a little.

So, I just thought I'd check with the Iowa crew and see if anybody had anything they were interested in letting go. He has a scope screen and switches ARs with the Epson, so I was thinking JVC RS45 with lens memory or at least a Sony or Panny with lens shift. Just thought I'd see if anybody had the upgrade bug or knew of any deals. His budget is $2k max, but netting out closer to half that after he sells the Epson would be better.

Thanks, guys!

SC
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post #4486 of 4490 Old 05-25-2015, 07:26 PM
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Has anyone heard the svs prime speakers? I'd love to hear them, they interest me for my next theater. Currently B&W 600 series are the ones I've heard that I'm most interested in.
I've heard both, but not in the same room or same time. The SVS were during a home demo and the B&W were in a store. The SVS are a fine speaker at their price point, but I'd choose B&W over the SVS based on my preferences.
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post #4487 of 4490 Old Today, 10:58 AM
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Hey, Iowa peeps! Checking in from Utah where it's raining like it did in Iowa. I feel like we brought it along!

My buddy back in Des Moines just had his lamp go down on his Epson 8350 again. He's put three lamps in it a little too recently and barely got a 1000 hours out of the last one. He's ready to upgrade a little.

So, I just thought I'd check with the Iowa crew and see if anybody had anything they were interested in letting go. He has a scope screen and switches ARs with the Epson, so I was thinking JVC RS45 with lens memory or at least a Sony or Panny with lens shift. Just thought I'd see if anybody had the upgrade bug or knew of any deals. His budget is $2k max, but netting out closer to half that after he sells the Epson would be better.

Thanks, guys!

SC
There are deals on the Panny 8k for that. Though Slarity sent his back because it didn't match the picture quality of the Epson he compared against. When I saw it I thought it looked fine, but I didn't see it head to head. That's the only option I can think of. Unless Deewan or KjLewie want to give me their projector. Then I would gladly sell mine
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post #4488 of 4490 Old Today, 11:09 AM
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Joel, remember what I said a while back? I would feel horrible taking your money for my projector because of its poor performance and black levels. I'd sleep better if I paid you to take it.
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post #4489 of 4490 Unread Today, 12:26 PM
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^^ Haha. What he said...

It just wouldn't feel right to dump that 600es on you, jeahrens
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post #4490 of 4490 Unread Today, 04:55 PM
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Thanks for the feedback, guys. My buddy Russ ended up grabbing a Sony HW40ES. AV Science was supposedly running a sale on it, but it was an instant rebate deal and everybody else was at the same price. Not really a "deal" I suppose, but OTOH it's AV Science with their after-sale support. It wasn't a steal like the B-Stock version that IgnoringMyWife got, but those deals don't come along often, and I think it's still a great projector even for what he paid.

BTW, I was amazed... I gave Russ Mike Garrett's number, figuring he'd call on Tuesday. He actually called on Sunday and got Mike and ordered the projector. That's impressive.

Oh, and he'll have an 8350 with a brand new Epson lamp from AV Science if you know anybody in central Iowa that wants to get into a decent 1080p projector for a fair price.

Cheers,
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