2008 Mitsubishi Owners Thread (735/736 and diamond) - Page 86 - AVS Forum
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post #2551 of 3012 Old 03-04-2009, 08:32 PM
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Hello to all and I'm a Brand Newbie. Is there a comparison of the 73736 and the Sammie 72650? I've found the best prices on both yet i need some honest reviews on the two from this forum to help get me over this stressing hump. I've viewed the 735/736 side by side and yes there is a difference in color depth and the 736's are brighter and the color seems to be viewably richer. The prices for the 736's are actually lower in all of my searches. The Sammie is also good looking but doesnt quite visually compare to the Mits 736 but it does have 120 hz if thats a help? If you all are UP right now, please share some of your thoughts. I will pull the trigger on this purchase in 24hrs as my wifey is tired of me going back and forth on my decision. Thanx in advance for all of your replies
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post #2552 of 3012 Old 03-05-2009, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

So to remove the screen, do you just remove the screws that go around the edge on the back? Is a 2nd person needed to make sure the screen doesn't fall when the last screw is removed?

Thats correct just remove all the screws around the back side of the TV. don't forge the bottom two on each side and there are also three more screws on the front panel when you flip down the thingy. As long as it's on a stand the screen wont fall down I suggest removing the top center one last to insure it won't happen. I took off the screen and moved it away myself, a second person wouldn't hurt but it wasn't necassary.

It's really very simple and putting it back on is no big deal either, just reverse steps.
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post #2553 of 3012 Old 03-05-2009, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinytool View Post

Thats correct just remove all the screws around the back side of the TV. don't forge the bottom two on each side and there are also three more screws on the front panel when you flip down the thingy. As long as it's on a stand the screen wont fall down I suggest removing the top center one last to insure it won't happen. I took off the screen and moved it away myself, a second person wouldn't hurt but it wasn't necassary.

It's really very simple and putting it back on is no big deal either, just reverse steps.

Thanks for the info. I asked about a 2nd person because I don't have access to get to the back to loosen screws and hold onto the front at the same time as I have to get in behind my cabinets to access the back of the TV.
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post #2554 of 3012 Old 03-06-2009, 11:48 AM
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So when I was trying to see if my ghosting appeared on all inputs not just HDMI, I pulled out my PS2 and hooked it up via component. The ghosting appears to still be there, but I noticed another seemingly unrelated issue. Any 480p signal via component causes horizontal flickering white lines to flash at random every couple of seconds. Looks like a bad connection, but I tried both my Gamecube and PS2 on every component input, and it is consistent.

While the ghosting isn't something every owner would notice, since it's only visible up close, the flashing lines is very obvious. If I can't get a new tv because of the ghosting, maybe I can because of the flashing.

I don't know if it does it with higher resolutions via component, like 720p or 1080i.
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post #2555 of 3012 Old 03-07-2009, 11:44 AM
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I have my DirecTV HD sat box hooked up to my 73835 via HDMI cables through my Onkyo 606 receiver. I also want to hook my sat box directly to my TV using component cables for video and audio cables so I don't have to use my receiver.

1) Will the TV recognize the component connection since I already have the HDMI connection in place?

2) What input name on the 73835 would I use for the component connection since the HDMI connection already uses the sat input name?
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post #2556 of 3012 Old 03-09-2009, 06:14 AM
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How is the vertical viewing angle on these? I have a 48" CRT RPTV right now, and I just got a nintendo wii. Sitting the tv is amazing, but if you stand up to play, you can barely make out whats on the screen. Very dissapointing, as otherwise I am quite happy with the tv. I saw one of these at a store on friday, and really liked what I saw, but it was up higher on a shelf, and was not sure what it would look like if it was mounted a bit lower? Anyone use one of these standing? I am speaking of the 60" in particular.
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post #2557 of 3012 Old 03-09-2009, 06:44 AM
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I have the 73", and we use it standing sometimes when playing rock band. My previous display was a Sony 46" RP CRT, and I would say this has better vertical off-angle viewing than that set did. It still has the "hot spot" that follows you as you raise yourself up/down, but it's much better than the CRT was (and better than the Samsungs I compared to in store). But of course, a 73" is still fairly close to eye level even when standing.


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post #2558 of 3012 Old 03-09-2009, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

I have the 73", and we use it standing sometimes when playing rock band. My previous display was a Sony 46" RP CRT, and I would say this has better vertical off-angle viewing than that set did. It still has the "hot spot" that follows you as you raise yourself up/down, but it's much better than the CRT was (and better than the Samsungs I compared to in store). But of course, a 73" is still fairly close to eye level even when standing.

I'd have to agree -- part of the reason why I chose the mits 73 was the better vertical viewing angle. It's not as good as an LCD or plasma, of course, but much better than my 2 year old samsung dlp.

As long as you stand about 5' back or more, it's fine. It dims slightly of course, but it's quite usable.

You could try putting it up higher, tilting it up slightly, or stand further back so you are within the "cone". Unless you have kids that sit on the floor directly in front of the unit, raising it might be the best option. Even a few inches will improve things quite a bit.
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post #2559 of 3012 Old 03-16-2009, 07:32 PM
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I have two DLPs by Mitsubishi, a WD73735 which I bought last month at PC Richard for $1,580

I also have a Mitsubishi WD65835 which I got yesterday (As a warantee replacement for my unfixable WS65813)


MY 73 incher which doesnt have 120MHZ or other step up features has performed flawlessly this past month with HDMI connected to my PC as well as cable box .

Now, this top of the line 65835 arrives yesterday with its smooth 120 and step up features.

I hook it up to my cable box via HDMI and have noticed the following.

LOTS of microsopic dots (not pixelization) just dots that seem to be even on a solid menu screen, (Googled Screen Door and that seems to describe it) almost a screen door kind of look in a criss cross pattern.

This mainly occurs when the image motion is panning from left to right or right to left.

This is only when I'm within 18 inches of the screen

On my 73 incher it's there too but you really, really have to strain during motion or on a semi static image to see it and BARELY, and this too is within 18 inches of the screen.

But on the 65 inch top of the line TV it's so much more pronounced quite noticeable

If anyone knows what i'm talking about is there a deep menu adjustment, is it my imagination? do i live with this, Call PC richard and ask for a service call or replacement?

By the way, I disabled smooth 120 (which actually enhances the dots and screen door) and disabled sharp edge and film look too.

Thanks in advance,

jeff
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post #2560 of 3012 Old 03-16-2009, 08:25 PM
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Its likely not the set or its got something wrong with it because my wd-65835 has No visible pixel structure. even with my nose right up to the set.
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post #2561 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tekkie1958 View Post

LOTS of microsopic dots (not pixelization) just dots that seem to be even on a solid menu screen, (Googled Screen Door and that seems to describe it) almost a screen door kind of look in a criss cross pattern.

So, are you actually seeing black in between pixels? If so, then your wobulation actuator may need adjustment, or it could even be defective.


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post #2562 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 09:16 AM
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Here's my screendoor effect on my 65835 which occurs during motion not really on static images.

Can I fix this via the service menu?
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post #2563 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 09:41 AM
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Again, these photos were snapped during panning.

Only on my 65835, my 73835 is fine
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post #2564 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 09:44 AM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen_door_effect


This wikipedia example shows my problem for my DLP, can anybody give me the service menu cure?

The wikipedia article talks about purposely blurring the picture to offset the screendoor effect, but how do i do this?

Again, this only ocurs within a few feet of my set ( the 65835) on my 73 inch 73735 i can be right up there with my nose against the screen and no problem.

Thanks so much,

jeff
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post #2565 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 09:57 AM
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Assuming that was not taken at a shutter speed that would show less than a full frame (like faster than 1/60th of a second), then it looks like the wobulation actuator isn't shifting to show the other half of the pixels interleaved between the first half. You might want to have it looked at.


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post #2566 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 10:09 AM
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And if it were taken at the wrong speed? I thinkit was taken at IsoMax 1600 (whatever that is).
Again, this only occurs when an image is being panned, NOT a static image.

Also turning on Smooth 120 Exaggerates the screendoor effect alot.

Just want my 65835 to show no screendoor like my beautiful 73735 does.

Again, this is only when I'm close to the TV, several feet back no problem but on my 73 incher close or far no problem

That wikipedia article mentions to purposely blur the image, is that possible?

jeff
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post #2567 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 10:24 AM
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I think you guys may have missed the fact that the screen door like effect he is seeing is diamond shaped and these sets pixels are square in shape. Because of this I don't think its the TV at all but his source. Maybe I'm wrong.
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post #2568 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 10:27 AM
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But even without any source connected to it (Coaxial disconnected before cable box) a Menu screen still has those screendoor patterns around it ( Smooth 120 makes it much worse too)
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post #2569 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 10:39 AM
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Thanks to EVERYONE here helping

Jeff
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post #2570 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cid67 View Post

I think you guys may have missed the fact that the screen door like effect he is seeing is diamond shaped and these sets pixels are square in shape.


No, all of the wobulated DLPs have the pizels of the DMD essentially rotated 45°, resulting in the "diamond" shape (they aren't really diamond, but squares turned 45°). They have half the pixel count of a full 1080x1920 frame, and display a frame from two "passes". The second pass is created by a mirror that shifts the output over one pixel, so one "diamond" should display in between two in the next column. So essentially, the pixels tend to overlap. That's why I suggest the wobulation actuator (which shifts the mirror) may not be shifting, because you shouldn't be able to see the individual diamonds, because they'd overlap and prevent the dark lines from being visible. Instead, you should see a zig-zag pattern, but you'd tend to see lines that were brighter, rather than darker, with the brighter portions being the overlap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tekkie1958 View Post

And if it were taken at the wrong speed?

With the above explanation in mind, if your camera took the picture at a speed that only captured half of the frame (half of a frame is "painted" in 1/120th of a second, so it takes 1/60th of a second for the whole frame to be rendered), then you'd see exactly that... half of the frame. And half of the frame would look exactly like your screen shots. In the next 120th of a second, what you see in your screen shot would be shifted over one pixel column, and the overlapping would remove those lines. So if your camera is taking the shot fast enough that only a partial frame is being captured, the shots show what they should. But if it's 1/60th a second or longer, then it sounds like your TV isn't shifting the image over properly.

EDIT: A picture is worth 1000 words. If you look at figure 4 in this document, it's a bit easier to understand how it works. The red outlines would represent the first half of the pixels, with the gray outlines representing what would be shown after 1/120th of a second, when the image is shifted over one column, and the second half of the pixels rendered overlapping the 1st half. Your screen shots look like only the red pixels (or only gray, take your pick). If your camera is at a fast enough shutter speed to only capture half of the frame, then that's to be expected. But if the shutter speed is long enough to capture both sub-frames, then the dark lines shouldn't be visible. And if they are, perhaps the mirror isn't "wobulating".


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post #2571 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 11:58 AM
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Darin,

So to experiment with purposely blurring the image in the service menu...might that be worth a try (I it's not the wobulation thing)?

jeff
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post #2572 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 12:07 PM
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No, what the wikipedia artical is talking about is bluring the image by making it out of focus. That's not a service menu issue, but a physical (optical) issue of slightly "unfocusing" the image projected on the screen. But that's not necessary on wobulated DLP, because the wobulation prevents any screen door effect due to the fact that the pixels overlap. At least it should, if it's working correctly.


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post #2573 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 12:14 PM
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Darin.

So since this was just delivered to me Saturday i guess I'll call up the place I bopught it from.

Might it be somehting they can fix right then and there? order parts? replacement.? OR..should i just live with it since normally people dont sit within a couple of feet of a dlp.

I might add again, from more than 5 feet away this problem does not exist.

Also from more than 5 feet way, with smooth 120 turned on, I see no difference then when it's off.

But up close with 120 on, the screendoor is enhanced so much, why?
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post #2574 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 12:23 PM
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Keep in mind this is a laymen's diagnosis after looking at pictures you posted, and we still don't know the shutter speed they were taken at. If there IS an issue with the wobulation, it might be something they can adjust, it might just be a missing connection to the wobulation actuator, or the actuator might have to be replaced. Or it could be something else all together. But I'd definitely have it looked at. I really have no idea why the Smooth120 processing makes it worse.


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post #2575 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 02:13 PM
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Darin,

In your opinion is there anything i can try, test on my own?

On my 73 incher it's there too, but so little, the 65 incher is the problem.

Any tests in the menu or otherwise i can try?

jeff
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post #2576 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 02:41 PM
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post #2577 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 03:00 PM
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Just to give you an example of what the wd-65835 should look like, I have posted a couple pics. the close up is a little out of focus do to how close the camera is but its enough to demonstrate that this set has no pixel structure when working correctly.
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post #2578 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 03:25 PM
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Darin,

The camera (panasonic Lumix) settings are as follows:

Exposure..Default (whatever speed that is)

Intelligent ISO 1600


Also when i take tons of photos with the same camera aimed at my 73 incher, not one of them comes out with screen door

To reiterate, the screen door ONLY occurs during motion, not on static images, though the pictures I took that showed the screen door were on static images.

Of course on my 73 incher, virtually no screendoor during motion and no proof of it with photos taken on static images


Jeff
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post #2579 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tekkie1958 View Post

Darin,

The camera (panasonic Lumix) settings are as follows:

Exposure..Default (whatever speed that is)

Intelligent ISO 1600

The ISO doesn't tell you the shutter speed, but but you should be able to see what it is by viewing the pictures in the camera. If you go to the playback mode, look at one of the pictures in question, then press the display button until the most amount of detail is displayed, you should see it. If it's anything like mine, you should see something to the effect of F2.8 1/60. The number after "F" will vary, depending on the zoom/aperture setting, but the fraction after that is the shutter speed. You want it to be 1/60 or slower.

But no, I really don't know what to test on your own. Only that it shouldn't look like your posts, and something awry with the wobulation could explain those pictures.


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post #2580 of 3012 Old 03-17-2009, 05:10 PM
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Darin,

For whatever it's worth, those images captured it in a exaggerated way (The caps were made on static images)

This only occurs on motion.

Shutter speed is 1/30

jeff
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