Pioneer Elite Pro-710hd...HD via Component - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 38 Old 05-09-2013, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Well that tour was a couple of years ago now, but I am still ready and willing to come wherever I am flown. Hope I'm closer by to you sometime soon -

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b

LOL, I'll be... Thought that was a new post. I need more sleep... Glad to see you still going strong, Bob! Keep up the good fight and best to you!

Joe
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post #32 of 38 Old 05-10-2013, 10:58 PM
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You too, Joe!

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post #33 of 38 Old 05-11-2013, 05:36 PM
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I have a Pioneer 620 bought new and has very little use (about 2,500 hours of use at last calculation). And had severe overscan issues (about 6%) which was cutting off most of the banner on CNN and sports) not having the guts to do Mr. Bob's wood shim fix I recently picked up an outbound scaler DVDO VP-30 that not only reduced my overscan to 1.5% with no distortion to edges or convergence issues but greatly improved PQ so much so that it now beats out my 42" plasma in PQ btw got the VP on eBay in mint condition for 150.00 which literally took my Pioneer to a whole nother level. I used to prefer watching my plasma for HD content. Not anymore my Pioneer now has taking over. Granted the VP-30 can't de-interlace 1080i properly the newer VP-50's can and if the picture improvements on the VP-30 is any indicator I can't wait to get my hands on the VP-50 but for now my VP-30 set at 720p input and 1080i output made my jaw drop. Was pondering on getting rid of the Pioneer for the newer flat panels because of the incredible PQ but my scaler has now matched the new LED displays but with pure black levels and without the macro blocking of newer digital displays. I also love the Pioneers cabinet so if you can get a used DVDO scaler you'll be very impressed with just how great HD can look using component.
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post #34 of 38 Old 05-13-2013, 08:26 AM
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That's excellent! Even I am tempted to get one now even tho I have my overscan down to 2-3% and she's fully shimmed, recentered on red and blue, then shimmed again! I don't miss anything at the edges and have no worries about this channel or that showing an edge, which is always a concern at 0-1% where it is not at 2-3%. Your 1.5% is probably fine on that score.

You say the VP30 can't de-interlace 1080i properly. Why is that a concern? Your set is not progressive in HD, it takes in 1080i native and plays 1080i native, that's both the initial and the final scanrate your set plays, no changing necessary. Your set is displaying exactly what came into it, with no alterations. It doesn't need any de-interlacing. Which is still the scanrate 99% of all broadcast video uses, be it satellite, cable or OTA. Or DVHS. 1080i is the original highest-res HD scanrate and is still the most prevalant HD scanrate in the world.

But why take in 720p to put out 1080i? The DVDO is good, but not that good. It still has to synthesize intervening pixels when the scanrate sent in is not as high density as what is being displayed. Even $20,000 Faroudja scalers used back in the day on ceiling CRT projectors can't do that synthesis better than native HD. And good as DVDO is, it's not better than Faroudja.

Why not take 1080i/p in and put out 1080i? The resolution on 1080i/p is substantially higher/better than that of 720p, no matter how good your 720p rendition is. It's 1920x1080 (i or p, either one) vs. 1440x720. Do the math.

2,073,600 pixels vs. 1,036,800 pixels. 1080i has twice the pixel density of 720p. And yes that does show up in the fineness of your picture when your set has been fully dialed in. At least to my standards, the specs of any Image Perfection calibration. I don't stop until your set is down to 1-click corrections.

b

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post #35 of 38 Old 05-16-2013, 01:11 AM
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Bob because the processing on 1080i signals is field scaled or pass through (why use pass through on a scaler though kinda defeats the purpose). The reason I chose 720p is because I keep reading on the VP -30 forum that the DVDO does a far better job at 720p processing than the 1080i processing. What the VP-30 does is field scale the 1080i down to 540p then up converts to simulated 1080i so that the Pioneer can receive the signal. In my mind 720p does a better job than 540p. Now what I did find out is setting the Directv box to output native signals of 480i, 720p and 1080i gave me the best results. For channels broadcasting in 1080i when sent out 720p gave me a wierd color affect that not noticeable to my many with my eyes it was distracting but by reducing the overscan and doing color correction and gamma correction in the VP30 even 540p looked better than my Directv hooked directly to the Pioneer without the VP 30 in the mix. I still keep my BluRay and HD-DVD at 720p because the VP30 doesn't downconvert 720p signals and with movies the picture just looked better than 1080i.

The newer VP-50 actually does keep 1080i and doesn't down convert and you can still make corrections without going down to 540p and back up to 1080i. But will contend that with either scaler the PQ vastly improved and for a scaler that retailed for 2,000 now for 200.00 you can't really go wrong. It does a fantastic job.
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post #36 of 38 Old 05-16-2013, 08:58 PM
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Gotcha.

BTW, a correction. 720p is 720x1280, not 1440. So the correct number is 921,600 rather than 1,036,800.

2,073,600 pixels vs. 921,600 pixels. Still a roughly 2:1 ratio.

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post #37 of 38 Old 05-16-2013, 11:51 PM
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Thanks Bob. If I were you especially with your expertise in calibrations it may behoove you to look into a used VP-50 just to compare what it can do compared to your expert modifications. For me just reducing overscan using the VP's underscan feature had the greatest impact on my Pioneer Elite 620. I mentioned once in your "Don't Dump Your RPTV" thread how I tried reducing overscan by going in the service menu but I only got my overscan down to about 4% but had slight convergence issues on the upper right part of the screen. When the DVDO arrived I went back into the service menu and set the screen back to factory settings and let the DVDO handle the overscan. Anything below 1% overscan would show a slight banding along the entire right side of the border but just bumping to 1.5% and there was absolutely no distortion issues and just brought the PQ to the next level. The DVDO surprised me because my sole purpose was just to reduce overscan but the scaling done surpassed the internal Pioneer one ( which I heard cost Pioneer about 1,000 dollars per TV ). But the DVDO just did a better job with detail, sharpness and clarity than the internal one. BTW if your ever in the Phoenix AZ area your more than welcome to swing by to check it out.

Edit: after checking back through a bunch of posts it appears that 1080i in and 1080i out does not do field scaling (only if you change to other resolutions like 720p or 1080p). Here's the post I found.

"Based on the answer to a question I had asked earlier, if the VP30 sees 1080i coming in, and you have it set to 1080i as output, my understanding is that it does not do any field scaling.
If you set it to 1080p, then it field scales."

So I changed all HD devices back to 1080i but still wonder why when playing Blurays and HD-DVD's the PQ looked smoother in 720p.
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post #38 of 38 Old 05-17-2013, 07:57 AM
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I take it field scaling will inherently need to happen if you use your scaler to resize the pic, even if 1080i is kept to 1080i, in and out. One way or the other your setup is going to be using the DVDO''s field scaling if you're using it to defeat the overscan. Otherwise it would be direct passthru, with no sizing changes.

My question would be what would look better: your overscan reduction using the scaler and all its conversions, or my shimming op reducing the overscan with the resultant distortion cleaned up again via a complete refocusing, re-geometry and reconvergence, completely restoring all crispness formerly there before the overscan reduction op. Usually better, actually.

I get to maintain the amount of CRT screenface used, you lose the use of part of your CRTs, all 3 of them, with the DVDO processor method of shrinking the picture to its proper size. I keep my 1080i preserved and untouched by any processing, straight thru, while your method guarantees a certain amount of processing being inserted into the mix.

I would love to see your setup, and yes if I am in your area I will definitely want to stop by! Get a few owners together and let's do a calibration tour for your area. I do all formats of calibration - CRT DLP D-ILA LCOS SXRD and LCD projection, plasma and LCD flat panels - even did a 4K flat panel the other day! - and am also available for optics cleanings on all projection modalities - CRT, DLP, D-ILA, SXRD etc. Most projection owners are by now experiencing exactly what CRT owners did as the years progressed - they thought their sets were worn out while all that was really needed to get past that slowly-embedded bleariness that finally after years and years becomes blatantly visible was a thorough optics cleaning! If you're reading this and your set has gone bleary over the years and it's a projection modality, you don't need a new set. You simply need my clarity-restoring, crystal clear light path optics cleaning ops. That part of what R&B Electronics in Redwood City calls The Sparkle Process, based on feedback from their customers after my working on their sets.

And of course if you're in the SF Bay Area, please stop by and see my setup!

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