Official LaserVue Owners thread - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 2717 Old 01-14-2009, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Finally purchased the LaserVue on 1/3/2009 $58XX. The picture and detail are unbelievable!! To stay with a quality stand I purchased BDI Meriden (cherry) and it is also gorgeous. While I compared this to the Kuro I noticed more color and detail with the LaserVue. This set to me is to large to mount on the wall even though that was my intention. Mitsu makes a fixed mount in the $300-400 range. The Sonus about $600 but is fully articulating. With this BDI stand it just seems like the perfect height.

I realize that no TV is perfect the Kuro or even this LaserVue have downsides. I do notice at times some rainbows. I also notice some "Shimmerings" at times usually when its like a bright blue sky. But 99.99% of the time it is awesome!! Dvd details jump out at you. The bad news is if not HD it's disappointing because it so noticeable. We have Verizon FIOS and at 1080 it looks like you are watching through a window!! Football is great but you soon notice that some venues must use better cameras because you can see the differance.

Anyway I just thought this might be a good start.
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post #2 of 2717 Old 01-14-2009, 06:35 PM
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You have to post some screen shots! I am sure their are many others who are itching for feedback from owners. Congrats and I hope you enjoy it.

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post #3 of 2717 Old 01-15-2009, 04:12 AM
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How many other big HD TV's have you owned and what where they?
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post #4 of 2717 Old 01-15-2009, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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I've owned Samsung 2 generation DLP they were good at the time. I would not consider that HD though. Compared this side by side with Kuro.
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post #5 of 2717 Old 01-15-2009, 08:09 PM
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Glad you are satisfied with your purchase, happy viewing.
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post #6 of 2717 Old 01-15-2009, 08:58 PM
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Great, glad to hear from someone who owns the set. Please take some pics for us!
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post #7 of 2717 Old 01-17-2009, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I've never uploaede pictures to this site. I don't know if I could do justice in taking pictures I will try early next week on a tight schedule this weekend. Are there any other owners out there.
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post #8 of 2717 Old 01-18-2009, 09:35 PM
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I had a chance to work on one of these today. It responded well to calibration. Here is some data from it.

 

Bright Mode Colors.pdf 10.912109375k . file

 

Brilliant Mode Gamut.pdf 10.9248046875k . file

 

Natural Mode Gamut.pdf 10.8330078125k . file
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Natural Mode Gamut.pdf (10.8 KB, 37 views)
File Type: pdf Brilliant Mode Gamut.pdf (10.9 KB, 30 views)
File Type: pdf Bright Mode Colors.pdf (10.9 KB, 47 views)
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post #9 of 2717 Old 01-18-2009, 09:38 PM
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post #10 of 2717 Old 01-18-2009, 09:44 PM
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The final color performance was good with an exceptionally flat gray scale and 2.2 gamma curve. The on/off contrast was about 2000:1 with a maximum light output in Natural mode of about 45 fL. The color gamut on these displays is nonlinear and requires complex calibration techniques to avoid strong over or under saturation of colors. I am sure many people would be pleased with this product.

I have attached the gamut numerical values below before calibration.

 

Gamut Info.pdf 76.5947265625k . file
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File Type: pdf Gamut Info.pdf (76.6 KB, 33 views)
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post #11 of 2717 Old 01-18-2009, 09:46 PM
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Comparisons of the PR-670 to two other instruments showed a huge degree of error in xyY values in lesser tools. These displays will require a very high quality tool to do well.
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post #12 of 2717 Old 01-18-2009, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Comparisons of the PR-670 to two other instruments showed a huge degree of error in xyY values in lesser tools. These displays will require a very high quality tool to do well.

Yes, the laser's spectrum output will require a high end SpectrRadioMeter to be properly adjusted. A DTP94 or i1 will not come close to getting it correct, as noted from the other thread.

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Originally Posted by umr View Post

The color gamut on these displays is nonlinear ....

Again, so much for the set being an instrument with exact numerical formulas that can be applied with confidence that has been stated elsewhere.

The end issue is simple.

People were ready to hang Ted Turner when he colorized black and white movies, because it was not accurate of what was produced by the filmmakers.

AVSers scream bloody murder when a film is cropped and not shown correctly on a movie channel (or OTA).

Yet Mitsubishi and some others want to argue exaggerated and incorrect colors (wide gamut) that the set is capable of producing is better than doing it correctly....go figure.
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post #13 of 2717 Old 01-18-2009, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachComber View Post

...Yet Mitsubishi and some others want to argue exaggerated and incorrect colors (wide gamut) that the set is capable of producing is better than doing it correctly....go figure.

Actually, there is a valid argument for wider gamuts. Real world images do not conform to Rec. 709. Original film material also is not Rec. 709. Various manufacturers are making attempts to restore this lost gamut information. I would not say it is a foolish endeavor.

I can tell you a display that misses Rec. 709 in certain under saturated ways is much worse than those that over saturate the primaries in a controlled manner.
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post #14 of 2717 Old 01-18-2009, 10:50 PM
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Do you have a graph of its gamma curve, Jeff?
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post #15 of 2717 Old 01-18-2009, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled View Post
Do you have a graph of its gamma curve, Jeff?
Here it is.

 

Calibrated Gray Scale.pdf 33.78125k . file

 

LaserVue Gamma.pdf 30.2333984375k . file
Attached Files
File Type: pdf LaserVue Gamma.pdf (30.2 KB, 28 views)
File Type: pdf Calibrated Gray Scale.pdf (33.8 KB, 23 views)
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post #16 of 2717 Old 01-19-2009, 12:56 AM
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Thank you umr. I have been hoping for several years for Laser TV to become a reality. Since Mits started touring the Laservue last fall and begun slowly delivering some, I have been waiting for a professional ISF tech to calibrate one of these units and post the numbers here. The bashers of the set and technology have been vocal and numerous. Now with your data, graciously posted for us, using unimpeachable equipment and knowledge, you have singlehandedly put the lie to many trolls and fan boys of other tech inappropriately claiming accurate knowledge of major inferiority of laser tech, and this set in particular. I appreciate your even handed approach and the rebuttal of inaccurate conclusions of some. I will wait for the 73" and for the price to become reasonable, as it most assuredly will, and then will probably buy one, if I like what I see. Thanks for the posts.
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post #17 of 2717 Old 01-19-2009, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Actually, there is a valid argument for wider gamuts. Real world images do not conform to Rec. 709. Original film material also is not Rec. 709. Various manufacturers are making attempts to restore this lost gamut information. I would not say it is a foolish endeavor.

No argument that a wider gamut has a valid place if it is correct. However, taking green that is supposed to be at x 0.300 y 0.600 is not a good idea if it is instead at x 0.1723 y 0.795 as it is in the expanded gamut of the LV.

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Originally Posted by PureDigital View Post

I have been hoping for several years for Laser TV to become a reality. Since Mits started touring the Laservue last fall and begun slowly delivering some, I have been waiting for a professional ISF tech to calibrate one of these units and post the numbers here. The bashers of the set and technology have been vocal and numerous. Now with your data, graciously posted for us, using unimpeachable equipment and knowledge, you have singlehandedly put the lie to many trolls and fan boys of other tech inappropriately claiming accurate knowledge of major inferiority of laser tech, and this set in particular. I appreciate your even handed approach and the rebuttal of inaccurate conclusions of some.

Suggest you re-read the data as well as the reference specs.

From post #10, Natural Mode Green ended up at:
x 0.2447
y 0.7235

While REC 709 calls for it a good distance away at:

x 0.300
y 0.600

Those numbers are not even close. You should also re-examine the numbers for the rest of the REC 709 Specs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I can tell you a display that misses Rec. 709 in certain under saturated ways is much worse than those that over saturate the primaries in a controlled manner.

Bottom line, neither is correct, especially as there are plenty of sets that can display accurate colors.
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post #18 of 2717 Old 01-19-2009, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PureDigital View Post

Thank you umr. I have been hoping for several years for Laser TV to become a reality. Since Mits started touring the Laservue last fall and begun slowly delivering some, I have been waiting for a professional ISF tech to calibrate one of these units and post the numbers here. The bashers of the set and technology have been vocal and numerous. Now with your data, graciously posted for us, using unimpeachable equipment and knowledge, you have singlehandedly put the lie to many trolls and fan boys of other tech inappropriately claiming accurate knowledge of major inferiority of laser tech, and this set in particular. I appreciate your even handed approach and the rebuttal of inaccurate conclusions of some. I will wait for the 73" and for the price to become reasonable, as it most assuredly will, and then will probably buy one, if I like what I see. Thanks for the posts.

I have been bashing this set's black level and contrast ratio from the first time I saw it. UMR measured the on/off contrast ratio at 2000 to 1, which is close to a better bulb driven DLP. In fact, Home Theater Magazine measured to on/off contrast ratio of the Mits 65835 at 5005 to 1! If Mits wants to charge Elite 9G prices for the Laservue they'll have to do a lot better than that.
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post #19 of 2717 Old 01-19-2009, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

The final color performance was good with an exceptionally flat gray scale and 2.2 gamma curve. The on/off contrast was about 2000:1 with a maximum light output in Natural mode of about 45 fL. The color gamut on these displays is nonlinear and requires complex calibration techniques to avoid strong over or under saturation of colors. I am sure many people would be pleased with this product.

I have attached the gamut numerical values below before calibration.

Nice work as usual, Jeff. I am confused by one comment, however. You described the gamut as non-linear. I see the results, but what would a linear vs non-linear gamut mean?

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

Need electronics repair? A great place to start looking for a shop in your area: http://www.tvrepairpros.com/
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post #20 of 2717 Old 01-19-2009, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckscountyguy View Post

Finally purchased the LaserVue on 1/3/2009 $58XX. The picture and detail are unbelievable!! To stay with a quality stand I purchased BDI Meriden (cherry) and it is also gorgeous. While I compared this to the Kuro I noticed more color and detail with the LaserVue. This set to me is to large to mount on the wall even though that was my intention. Mitsu makes a fixed mount in the $300-400 range. The Sonus about $600 but is fully articulating. With this BDI stand it just seems like the perfect height.

I realize that no TV is perfect the Kuro or even this LaserVue have downsides. I do notice at times some rainbows. I also notice some "Shimmerings" at times usually when its like a bright blue sky. But 99.99% of the time it is awesome!! Dvd details jump out at you. The bad news is if not HD it's disappointing because it so noticeable. We have Verizon FIOS and at 1080 it looks like you are watching through a window!! Football is great but you soon notice that some venues must use better cameras because you can see the differance.

Anyway I just thought this might be a good start.

I've seen a 73 inch Diamond price 2699.00 and a 65 inch LaserVue price 58XX side by side and saw no noticeable difference in picture quality what so ever. I would never tell someone how to spend their hard earned money but.......... DAMN!!!
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post #21 of 2717 Old 01-19-2009, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Nice work as usual, Jeff. I am confused by one comment, however. You described the gamut as non-linear. I see the results, but what would a linear vs non-linear gamut mean?

It means the colors are not mapped linearly from 0% saturation to 100% saturation. This allows an enhanced gamut without distorting less saturated colors colors like skin and such.
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post #22 of 2717 Old 01-19-2009, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachComber View Post

...Bottom line, neither is correct, especially as there are plenty of sets that can display accurate colors.


Not really. If you were to look at all of color space you would be surprised how few do a good job. This is one reason the 9G Pioneer Elites can look so good. That level of color accuracy is rare not common.

I would suggest you take a look at the RS20 calibration thread. A few folks are starting to figure out how complex color really is. Just hitting the Rec. 709 gamut and gray scale really tells you nothing about the displays true color performance. In reality we do not watch color bars so color bar color performance is irrelevant to a large extent. Add this to peoples instrument problems and few ever see anything very accurate at all.
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post #23 of 2717 Old 01-19-2009, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

It means the colors are not mapped linearly from 0% saturation to 100% saturation. This allows an enhanced gamut without distorting less saturated colors colors like skin and such.

How are you measuring this?

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

Need electronics repair? A great place to start looking for a shop in your area: http://www.tvrepairpros.com/
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post #24 of 2717 Old 01-19-2009, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

How are you measuring this?

I have my own tools linked up with my PR-670. I am an engineer and create my own solutions when necessary. It is actually very cool and delivers phenominal results.
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post #25 of 2717 Old 01-19-2009, 08:24 AM
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What is your opinion of the PQ of the calibrated Samsung LED 750 series, and how does that compare what you've found on the Mitsubishi Laservue?
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post #26 of 2717 Old 01-19-2009, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by TetsujinWave View Post

What is your opinion of the PQ of the calibrated Samsung LED 750 series, and how does that compare what you've found on the Mitsubishi Laservue?

It is rude to do display comparisons in an owners thread.

I also do not provide comparisons on the forum. It just upsets people to hear the deficiencies of their product.
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post #27 of 2717 Old 01-19-2009, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I have my own tools linked up with my PR-670. I am an engineer and create my own solutions when necessary. It is actually very cool and delivers phenominal results.

Are you interested in sharing what you are doing? This is a solution that I have been looking for...does it integrate with the software that I bought from you previously? Email or PM me.

Yes, calibration is important...every user should be calibrated.

Need electronics repair? A great place to start looking for a shop in your area: http://www.tvrepairpros.com/
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post #28 of 2717 Old 01-19-2009, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcaillo View Post

Are you interested in sharing what you are doing? This is a solution that I have been looking for...does it integrate with the software that I bought from you previously? Email or PM me.

I am not distributing this at this time. The fact is so few would ever buy a PR-670 and the other tools to do this that it would only help my competitors. Doing all of this properly also requires a calibrated eye to some extent which is not possible to distribute with a software package.
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post #29 of 2717 Old 01-19-2009, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachComber View Post

...
Suggest you re-read the data as well as the reference specs.

From post #10, Natural Mode Green ended up at:
x 0.2447
y 0.7235

While REC 709 calls for it a good distance away at:

x 0.300
y 0.600

Those numbers are not even close. You should also re-examine the numbers for the rest of the REC 709 Specs.




Bottom line, neither is correct, especially as there are plenty of sets that can display accurate colors.

Quote:
I have attached the gamut numerical values below before calibration.

Those are not the final numbers they are the starting values. I only provided the final gray scale and gamma.
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post #30 of 2717 Old 01-19-2009, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

It is rude to do display comparisons in an owners thread.

I also do not provide comparisons on the forum. It just upsets people to hear the deficiencies of their product.

I understand. I did not mean any disrespect.
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