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post #1 of 54 Old 02-26-2009, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I apologize in advance for the length of this....lol...

i've been researching my options for a TV upgrade for awhile now (6-8 months of serious research).....

i have been sold for awhile on one of the 52" Samsung Touch of Color LCD's (650, 750, 850, or 860)....but i have flirted with the idea of going plasma...

the main reason for wanting a flat panel is that i really LOVE my TV stand...
http://www.sanus.com/us/en/thumbnail...mal&asset=true

and obviously it will only work with flat panel TV's....

but recently....the size/price ratio of the newer rear projection sets have really begun to catch my eye...and yesterday i was damn close to picking up the Samsung HL61A750 or even its bigger brother the HL67A750....

the idea of being able to score a 67 inch DLP for the price of a 52" LCD and not sacrifice picture quality is certainly tempting!!!

now here is where I begin to look for some suggestions....

i don't have much experience with rear projection sets....but i do know that Cnet.com raved about this set....basically calling it the best rear projection set on the market today...and even going as far as saying it is better than the old SXRD Sony sets and that really raised my eyebrows....

i know rear projection is known for accurate color, good motion processing, high black level performance, but poor off angle viewing...

i had the chance this weekend to mess with one of these in best buy...and conveniently, a Samsung 750 LCD was on the wall near it...the picture quality seemed awesome...but as i messed with the settings quite a bit, it just seemed like i couldn't get the DLP to match the vibrant color, "pop" and "crispness" of the LCD....

is there something i'm missing?...is this due to lighting in the store?? how do these sets REALLY perform compared to LCD and plasma?...

now moving on...as far as the TV fitting properly in my home theater room...ill put up a picture of the layout of my room...i apologize for the quality...i had to make it in MS Paint because im not at home so i don't have my compter to mess with...but i hope it gives you guys an idea of what im dealing with as far as space is concerned....



everything in black is how the room is currently setup....the red box would be the 67" DLP in the room....and the blue line is the current viewing distance sitting back on my main couch (distance measured from screen to where my eyes are when sitting back on the couch is about 9.5', so i used about 9' as my viewing distance....) i would be open to turning the room and going with the TV along one of the shorter walls....



so really what im looking for...

how are these sets going to be?
how do they perform with the PS3 in particular? (360 as well)
how will this set fit within my theater room?

any other suggestions?
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post #2 of 54 Old 02-26-2009, 04:54 PM
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I had HL61A750, KDS-60A2000, and KDS-60A3000. Of all 3 A3000 overall is the best
since it handles 24p better than A750 which does 2:3 pulldown instead of 5:5. Picture wise
everything is about the same on colors but the blacks is better on HL61A750 because of
LED backlight control. A3000 is more cinematic and smoother picture and HL61A750 is more
sharper overall but has SDE. SSE is worse on A750. Geometry is worse on A750.
There are more problems on A750 than A3000. A2000 has more problems than A750.
A750 also has limited viewing angle compare to A3000 I have all them ISF standard calibrations.

There is always someone out there that gives you opinion of a product that they don't even own.
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post #3 of 54 Old 02-26-2009, 05:37 PM
 
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Bs ^
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post #4 of 54 Old 02-26-2009, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jrcorwin View Post

Bs ^

explain please???
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post #5 of 54 Old 02-26-2009, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcorwin View Post

Bs ^

Idiot^. You are a known DLP fanboy hence the logo. You are always cocky and never actually back your statements, you and BeachComber. I actually based my statements on my experience and that experience is both actually owning one.

There is always someone out there that gives you opinion of a product that they don't even own.
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post #6 of 54 Old 02-26-2009, 06:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

Idiot^. You are a known DLP fanboy hence the logo. You are always cocky and never actually back your statements, you and BeachComber. I actually based my statements on my experience and that experience is both actually owning one.

Haha...right. Your comments are about me are far from accurate.

BTW...I'm not just a DLP fanboy....I'm an anything but LCD fanboy! Get it right.
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post #7 of 54 Old 02-26-2009, 06:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Metfanant View Post

explain please???

Come on over to the A750 owner's thread. We will be more than happy to answer any questions you may have and provide you with accurate information.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...686&highlight=

We look forward to seeing you there.
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post #8 of 54 Old 02-26-2009, 07:08 PM
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Go to the A750 thread if you want to hear wonderful things about A750, go to A3000 thread if you want to hear wonderful things about A3000. jrcorwin I have yet to see you actually give any SXRD an factual statement except maybe the optical block but A3000 has yet to actually prove one.

There is always someone out there that gives you opinion of a product that they don't even own.
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post #9 of 54 Old 02-26-2009, 07:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

Go to the A750 thread if you want to hear wonderful things about A750, go to A3000 thread if you want to hear wonderful things about A3000. jrcorwin I have yet to see you actually give any SXRD an factual statement except maybe the optical block but A3000 has yet to actually prove one.

You must have mistaken me for someone else. I have no idea what you are even talking about. I have never made a single comment about an SXRD in my life.
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post #10 of 54 Old 02-26-2009, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcorwin View Post

You must have mistaken me for someone else. I have no idea what you are even talking about. I have never made a single comment about an SXRD in my life.

Exactly. Why would you call it BS if you don't even know anything about it in
comparison to A750?

There is always someone out there that gives you opinion of a product that they don't even own.
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post #11 of 54 Old 02-26-2009, 09:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

Exactly. Why would you call it BS if you don't even know anything about it in
comparison to A750?

What? Are you just making this up as you go along in an effort to stir the pot?

When did I ever say that I know nothing about SXRD? Just because I choose not to discuss the topic (since I don't have an interest) doesn't mean I lack the knowledge.

If you care to review the thread...I said BS to your comments and not to you/about you. You then chose to attack me personally with baseless statements and accusations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

Idiot^. You are a known DLP fanboy hence the logo. You are always cocky and never actually back your statements, you and BeachComber. I actually based my statements on my experience and that experience is both actually owning one.

1. You called me an idiot.

2. You accused me of being a fanboy of DLP when in fact I am a fanboy for any tech other than LCD. If you even knew my history here that would be evident.

3. You claim I am cocky while I prefer the term confident. I ask questions when I don't know the answer and I offer assistance whenever I can. I'm not sure where you've picked up this bad info on me.

4. I have no idea what this has to do with BeachComber anyway.

5. You boast about your level of experience without knowing anything regarding mine.

The biggest issue I have here is that I have absolutely no clue who you are. I don't believe I have ever even come across you before, yet you act as if we have some sort of long running feud. I have no clue where your issues with me even come from.
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post #12 of 54 Old 02-26-2009, 10:19 PM
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My bad, I guess I was trying to instigate. Anyways I am just watching A750 thread and you always seem cocky when someone said something bad about A750 but you don't back up anything like "Bs^". I compared you to BeachComber because he seem to make everything a fact without solid proof. I reacted to you because you called my statements BS without reasoning.

There is always someone out there that gives you opinion of a product that they don't even own.
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post #13 of 54 Old 02-26-2009, 10:49 PM
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Time for a group hug?
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post #14 of 54 Old 02-26-2009, 11:16 PM
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Warning: this is going to be a very long post!

We picked up an HL67A750 a couple weeks ago after a lot of research, here and elsewhere on the internet.

I was in the exact same situation as you. Like you I was sold on one of the Samsung ToC LCDs, but by chance I came across a deal on the 61A750 one night and decided I should research DLP some more. The size/price ratio was tempting, but I had never considered an RP DLP before because I did not want to deal with bulbs, slow start up, color wheels, etc. and DLPs had never looked that great to me in stores. But I was not aware of the newer LED lit ones and decided that I should probably update my knowledge on the state of RP DLPs before buying a new TV. You can guess what I concluded from what I said in my first sentence.

I am extremely happy that we went with the 67A750 instead of the LN52A650, which was going to be my choice. I know that I would just end up kicking myself for buying a CCFL lit LCD when more affordable LED lit LCDs are just around the corner. Also, I have never cared for the Motionflow/AMP/whatever frame interpolation algorithms that the newer LCDs are using. It makes film look like video and makes people look like animatronic robots, and I would prefer not to have to rely on those techniques for reducing motion blur.

LED lighting fixes all of the problems I had with RP DLP technology, aside from viewing angle. And now that we have the 67A750 in our home, I can say that viewing angles are not as bad as I thought they would be. Horizontal viewing angles in particular are more than good enough; everyone on the couch can enjoy the same picture, which is something that I could not say for the LCD that this set replaced. Vertical is a lot more sensitive and the picture darkens somewhat when I stand up for Rock Band or Wii Sports, but not enough to make it hard to see and I don't play those games for the graphics anyway so it doesn't bother me.

And of course, there's the incredible size and picture quality. The 67A750 is gargantuan and it has the most beautiful picture I have personally ever seen on an HDTV. With some very minor tweaking (thanks Lee Bailey and everyone else in the 61/67A750 owner threads!) the TV produces accurate color, inky blacks and more than enough brightness. It does pop, and it is incredible. When I watched WALL-E on blu-ray, I noticed details I had never seen before on my much smaller LCD.

The PS3 and 360 look fantastic on it. I played through the newest Prince of Persia on this TV and it was a real treat. I played the demo of WipEout HD on the PS3 and it was pretty incredible. I am definitely satisfied with the TV as far as gaming. The icing on the cake is that I will be able to do 3D on this TV whenever I decide to jump into that. I am thinking Mirror's Edge and Portal in 3D would be a mind-blowing experience.

There are a couple of caveats that you need to consider, though. First is the silk screen effect (SSE), which is the appearance of sparkles on the screen in bright scenes. It bothers some people and doesn't bother others. It can be mitigated somewhat by adjusting the brightness of the LED lights down and calibrating your brightness/contrast, but if you find it extremely irritating it is probably going to bother you no matter what. You should go check out the TV at a store and see if the effect bothers you at all. Personally I can see it, but it doesn't bother me once I am engrossed in a movie or game.

Second, while the horizontal viewing angles are really very good, you might run into problems with the second couch on the left based on your current room layout. Someone on the far end of the couch will probably be OK, but the person on the end closest to the TV might be hosed. You might consider putting the TV in a corner, which would make it hard or impossible to get far enough off to the side for horizontal viewing angles to be an issue.

Finally, viewing distance and screen/stand height. I am at about 9.5-10' from my 67" which seems to be an OK distance. I think I may decide to push it back a little bit more. At 9-9.5 feet I think you would be OK with either the 61" or the 67". But if you are too close you will probably notice that across the middle of the screen is very slightly brighter than the top and bottom. This is a limitation of the vertical viewing angle and it becomes less pronounced the further back you get. It's not noticeable until a screen of a bright uniform color pops up; a white Apple ad, for example. Also, you have to try to get the center of the screen in the ballpark of the height of your eyes while you're sitting. In other words, you do not want to set the TV on the floor or put it too high up, because the picture will be dim. My stand is 17" tall which seems about right for me.

That's all I can think of to say right now. I'll come back and add more comments if I think of something. Feel free to ask questions too!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NovaRev View Post

Warning: this is going to be a very long post!

We picked up an HL67A750 a couple weeks ago after a lot of research, here and elsewhere on the internet.

I was in the exact same situation as you. Like you I was sold on one of the Samsung ToC LCDs, but by chance I came across a deal on the 61A750 one night and decided I should research DLP some more. The size/price ratio was tempting, but I had never considered an RP DLP before because I did not want to deal with bulbs, slow start up, color wheels, etc. and DLPs had never looked that great to me in stores. But I was not aware of the newer LED lit ones and decided that I should probably update my knowledge on the state of RP DLPs before buying a new TV. You can guess what I concluded from what I said in my first sentence.

I am extremely happy that we went with the 67A750 instead of the LN52A650, which was going to be my choice. I know that I would just end up kicking myself for buying a CCFL lit LCD when more affordable LED lit LCDs are just around the corner. Also, I have never cared for the Motionflow/AMP/whatever frame interpolation algorithms that the newer LCDs are using. It makes film look like video and makes people look like animatronic robots, and I would prefer not to have to rely on those techniques for reducing motion blur.

LED lighting fixes all of the problems I had with RP DLP technology, aside from viewing angle. And now that we have the 67A750 in our home, I can say that viewing angles are not as bad as I thought they would be. Horizontal viewing angles in particular are more than good enough; everyone on the couch can enjoy the same picture, which is something that I could not say for the LCD that this set replaced. Vertical is a lot more sensitive and the picture darkens somewhat when I stand up for Rock Band or Wii Sports, but not enough to make it hard to see and I don't play those games for the graphics anyway so it doesn't bother me.

And of course, there's the incredible size and picture quality. The 67A750 is gargantuan and it has the most beautiful picture I have personally ever seen on an HDTV. With some very minor tweaking (thanks Lee Bailey and everyone else in the 61/67A750 owner threads!) the TV produces accurate color, inky blacks and more than enough brightness. It does pop, and it is incredible. When I watched WALL-E on blu-ray, I noticed details I had never seen before on my much smaller LCD.

The PS3 and 360 look fantastic on it. I played through the newest Prince of Persia on this TV and it was a real treat. I played the demo of WipEout HD on the PS3 and it was pretty incredible. I am definitely satisfied with the TV as far as gaming. The icing on the cake is that I will be able to do 3D on this TV whenever I decide to jump into that. I am thinking Mirror's Edge and Portal in 3D would be a mind-blowing experience.

There are a couple of caveats that you need to consider, though. First is the silk screen effect (SSE), which is the appearance of sparkles on the screen in bright scenes. It bothers some people and doesn't bother others. It can be mitigated somewhat by adjusting the brightness of the LED lights down and calibrating your brightness/contrast, but if you find it extremely irritating it is probably going to bother you no matter what. You should go check out the TV at a store and see if the effect bothers you at all. Personally I can see it, but it doesn't bother me once I am engrossed in a movie or game.

Second, while the horizontal viewing angles are really very good, you might run into problems with the second couch on the left based on your current room layout. Someone on the far end of the couch will probably be OK, but the person on the end closest to the TV might be hosed. You might consider putting the TV in a corner, which would make it hard or impossible to get far enough off to the side for horizontal viewing angles to be an issue.

Finally, viewing distance and screen/stand height. I am at about 9.5-10' from my 67" which seems to be an OK distance. I think I may decide to push it back a little bit more. At 9-9.5 feet I think you would be OK with either the 61" or the 67". But if you are too close you will probably notice that across the middle of the screen is very slightly brighter than the top and bottom. This is a limitation of the vertical viewing angle and it becomes less pronounced the further back you get. It's not noticeable until a screen of a bright uniform color pops up; a white Apple ad, for example. Also, you have to try to get the center of the screen in the ballpark of the height of your eyes while you're sitting. In other words, you do not want to set the TV on the floor or put it too high up, because the picture will be dim. My stand is 17" tall which seems about right for me.

That's all I can think of to say right now. I'll come back and add more comments if I think of something. Feel free to ask questions too!

Welcome to the club! Stop by the owner's thread and say hello when you have a chance.

Thank you for contributing this information. I'm sure it will be helpful to the OP.
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post #16 of 54 Old 02-27-2009, 12:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

Idiot^. You are a known DLP fanboy hence the logo. You are always cocky and never actually back your statements, you and BeachComber. I actually based my statements on my experience and that experience is both actually owning one.


I agree with you on jrcowin - as pointed out, even in the thread he wants you to go to and discuss the A750, he continues to promote an accessory that has been proven on of the most inaccurate of all in its class.

However, I do backup my statments - I just don't do it in every thread as I have no reason to keep repeating myself and cross posting in many threads.
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post #17 of 54 Old 02-27-2009, 10:52 AM
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Funny stuff...



Were to start

My mom works for Sony, and she brought home a copy of "Starhawk BETA"
I quickly slipped it into my trusty PS3, and started playing.


GOOZEX Game/Movie Exchange
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Beachcomber is the leader of my fan club...

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post #19 of 54 Old 02-27-2009, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. View Post

I had HL61A750, KDS-60A2000, and KDS-60A3000. Of all 3 A3000 overall is the best
since it handles 24p better than A750 which does 2:3 pulldown instead of 5:5. Picture wise
everything is about the same on colors but the blacks is better on HL61A750 because of
LED backlight control. A3000 is more cinematic and smoother picture and HL61A750 is more
sharper overall but has SDE. SSE is worse on A750. Geometry is worse on A750.
There are more problems on A750 than A3000. A2000 has more problems than A750.
A750 also has limited viewing angle compare to A3000 I have all them ISF standard calibrations.

Wow! For a teenager you sure have gone through a LOT of TVs! A Pioneer Kuro as well?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post12484752

P.S. SXRDs and wobbulated 1080p DLP TVs like the HL61A750 both have SDE but you're not going to see it unless you're watching from a foot away.
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Originally Posted by WaldorfSalad View Post

Wow! For a teenager you sure have gone through a LOT of TVs! A Pioneer Kuro as well?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post12484752

Wow...haha. Thank you for the info! Very funny!
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post #21 of 54 Old 02-27-2009, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Metfanant View Post

I apologize in advance for the length of this....lol...

i've been researching my options for a TV upgrade for awhile now (6-8 months of serious research).....

i have been sold for awhile on one of the 52" Samsung Touch of Color LCD's (650, 750, 850, or 860)....but i have flirted with the idea of going plasma...

the main reason for wanting a flat panel is that i really LOVE my TV stand...
http://www.sanus.com/us/en/thumbnail...mal&asset=true

and obviously it will only work with flat panel TV's....

but recently....the size/price ratio of the newer rear projection sets have really begun to catch my eye...and yesterday i was damn close to picking up the Samsung HL61A750 or even its bigger brother the HL67A750....

the idea of being able to score a 67 inch DLP for the price of a 52" LCD and not sacrifice picture quality is certainly tempting!!!

now here is where I begin to look for some suggestions....

i don't have much experience with rear projection sets....but i do know that Cnet.com raved about this set....basically calling it the best rear projection set on the market today...and even going as far as saying it is better than the old SXRD Sony sets and that really raised my eyebrows....

i know rear projection is known for accurate color, good motion processing, high black level performance, but poor off angle viewing...

i had the chance this weekend to mess with one of these in best buy...and conveniently, a Samsung 750 LCD was on the wall near it...the picture quality seemed awesome...but as i messed with the settings quite a bit, it just seemed like i couldn't get the DLP to match the vibrant color, "pop" and "crispness" of the LCD....

is there something i'm missing?...is this due to lighting in the store?? how do these sets REALLY perform compared to LCD and plasma?...

now moving on...as far as the TV fitting properly in my home theater room...ill put up a picture of the layout of my room...i apologize for the quality...i had to make it in MS Paint because im not at home so i don't have my compter to mess with...but i hope it gives you guys an idea of what im dealing with as far as space is concerned....



everything in black is how the room is currently setup....the red box would be the 67" DLP in the room....and the blue line is the current viewing distance sitting back on my main couch (distance measured from screen to where my eyes are when sitting back on the couch is about 9.5', so i used about 9' as my viewing distance....) i would be open to turning the room and going with the TV along one of the shorter walls....

so really what im looking for...

how are these sets going to be?
how do they perform with the PS3 in particular? (360 as well)
how will this set fit within my theater room?

any other suggestions?

Well, if you like lots of pop and high contrast (i.e you want your HDTV to look comparable in brightness and picture quality to an out of the box CRT color television, you know like the tube color TVs we've all grown up on). If that's your basis of comparison then you must realize in this forum you have many people (I would say most) who have a very different perspective of what makes for accurate picture. They adhere to the CIE US D65 standard (which ISF calibrators adhere to) which demands a warmer color temperature and duller image than 9300k display temp we're accustom to... According to most of the ISF calibrators I've asked about this (I've talked with three over the past few days trying to get new perspective on calibration and standards in general) the consensus is the D65 standard makes sense in environments where you can control the ambient lighting but will probably not make most people happy in environments where you have an abundance of ambient light from windows, lamps, etc... You know, like a normal 3-4 bedroom home living room!

So in regard to praise of this set, keep in mind that the CNET reviewer went blissful in his review of the 61A750 because he was able to get such great results out of his Spyder2Pro home calibration tool (he did not perform or have performed a ISF calibration.. and the Spyder2Pro tool he used is made to be an inexpensive way for the average joe to self calibrate near the D65 standard, the accuracy of this tool has been criticized and it doesn't even have a proper setting for LED DLP rear projection sets.. so we assume he selected 'Projector' or 'LCD', or who knows.... according to the manufacturer, the tool measures color without consideration for the surrounding light sources, which in my opinion makes it (or settings derived from someone praising it's results) absolutely useless to the majority of us.

If you're like most people, your preference is going to lean more towards the brightness level and color tones you've been accustom to for decades with CRT color televisions and that would be the Standard mode on this television (it's likely called 'Standard' mode because the Asian countries reject the Western World's D65 standard and continue to use the 9300k temp we're all accustom to for their HDTVs as their display standard, they think D65 is too dark and that it has too much red push.... Critics will say 9300k has too much blue)

The bottom line here is that many reviewers and videophile types in general are going to base their opinion of a display around it's ability to get close to the D65 standard and the reality is that's a standard that's not well suited for living rooms and well most places where someone might setup a LCD, Plasma or DLP television... As a result you have to be careful when reading reviews or taking advice on these things. Look at the reviewers information on build quality, but when it comes to picture quality, ultimately beauty is in the eye of the beholder and you should let your eyes be the judge.

I have not done a side by side comparison on the 750 series LCDs by Samsung to the 750 series DLPs, but I have compared the 900 series LCDs by Samsung to the 750 series and hands down the 900 series LCDs beats the paints of the 700 series DLP.... Of course it also cost 2.5x as much and that's not even accounting for the 10" or so you're sacrificing in screen size... There is no perfect display, just the one that's best suited for your home.

If you scan through this forum and find post regarding recommended settings that are producing an image too dark for your preference, private message me and I'll share with you the settings I've used with the 67A750 that have made me very happy with this set.
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Wow! For a teenager you sure have gone through a LOT of TVs! A Pioneer Kuro as well?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post12484752

I also noticed where he claims that previous ridiculous posts were made by his son. Right...

It's funny how both he and his "son" speak/type in the same exact format. There is no way they are two different people. It's just one person who couldn't keep track of the stories they were telling.

That "Post your PS3 Pics" thread is beyond funny. I'm reading the posts about how old he claims to be, while at the same time claiming to have teenage children. Wow...
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post #23 of 54 Old 02-27-2009, 01:33 PM
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Metfanant,

Your drawing is vey similar to my room arrangement. Your room is a few inches smaller than mine in both axis, though that will not make any appreciable difference.

Viewing from your couch on the left side of your drawing on a DLP is going to be dark. I'd not recommend that setup for typical viewing. Occasionally for extra viewers, fine. As for viewing distance, you're fine for your TV size, you could even be closer with no problems at all. (imho)

Side to side angle issues on DLP is nowhere near as critical as up and down. As long as you get the height of the TV correct, the side viewing is probably ok from 60 degrees (120 included).

As to color "Pop" as you put it. LCD and Plazma are simply brighter, period. So, that brightness often gets confused with saturation, contrast, etc. If you like that, great. I find viewing those types of sets for an extended period of time more fatiguing because of the brightness. However, that can be controlled somewhat with room lighting being brigher. With a DLP, and not so much light on, I am much happier.

I've watched my own set from roughly the position where the right side of your left couch is, and it was watchable, but, sitting closer to center is much better as I'm sure you saw in the store.

These sets look a lot better when you get them home, have proper lighting and proper viewing height.

If you've researched this long, then seriously consider asking similar questions in the projector forums. That eliminates all viewing angle issues and screen size problems too. Next year I suspect I'll be geting one if the price of projector bulbs becomes more reasonable. With your set, that's not an issue of course as there is no bulb.

Just fyi, you show the set very close to the wall, that will not be the case. You will need a few more inches of space for the vents to breathe. Mines probably 6" from the wall. Still, it's closer than the front of my Audio equipment due to cable requirements at the rear of those units and the depth of the enclosures for the receiver, DVD player, etc.
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post #24 of 54 Old 02-27-2009, 02:51 PM
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Take this advise with a grain of salt. He is by no means an authority on the issue. In fact, his post is riddled with errors.

No it isn't

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Not to mention, he's never even had his own set professionally calibrated

And never will as it's inappropriate given that my HDTV is in an environment where I have varying amounts of ambinet light given the time of day... Many people fall into this category.

Anyone can visit a few quality Home Theater stores in their area and get an idea of what a ISF calibrated set looks like compared to what they are use to and they absolutely should do so before dropping $300-$500 on a calibration that may produce a picture quality not suitable for their environment or personal taste.

BJorn's Audio Video Home Theater store in San Antonio (which has ISF certified calibrators on staff) directed me to this blurb on their website:

The North American Television Standards Committee assigned D6500K as the reference standard for the white signal, and some in the creative community conform their movies to this measure, D6500K is the color of white on an overcast day. Viewed in a low ambient light condition of a Home Theater, whites appear natural and an overall warmth is present in the picture. However, in a medium to brightly lit room, lower color temperature settings are less versatile and the brightness performance is generally perceived as undesirable. The picture appears darker and reflects low contrast.


Quote:


and is constantly claiming that the D65 standard produces a dull and washed out picture. How does that work? I challenge you to find 10 people who have had their set professionally calibrated who believe their picture is dull and washed out.

Most people who would spend $300-$800 or whatever it cost these days on a pro calibration are going to probably have a suitable environment to benefit from the results. This service isn't for everyone and not everyone should compare PQ to how close it can get to the D65 standard when not everyone will have dark enough room to benefit. For those who continue to try and use recommended settings or home calibration tools and can't accept how dark the picture is, well here's you answer! In your environment you're trading contrast & brightness for accurate color and so you're compromising picture quality.... All the ISF calibrators I spoke with told me that if compromises had to me made then proper contrast and brightness are more important to picture quality than color and should be considered first. Proper contrast and brightness of the display will always be relative to the ambient light in a given environment. talked with. If the color is marginally off but the image is bright enough, well then slightly inaccurate color is something most of us are willing to dell with without bringing in a construction crew to our den or family room... If we nail the color, but that accuracy comes at the cost of contrast and brightness settings too dark for the environment the set is in then we have a real problem... Compromise must be made, as the pros told me "never compromise proper contrast and brightness on a display to achieve 99% accurate color... change the lighting conditions in the room or just accept the best color accuracy you can get... if the room is bright and the display dark, who cares if you have proper color if as a side-effect you can't see any shadow detail then you've destroyed the picture quality... don't do that!"

Yet, it seems everyone is saying "tune to D65 for accuracy" end of story, which it's really not. All they all idiots? Well no they are just misinformed. You have exceptional bright people here who refuse to reason this information on their own and would rather just stick to what they know, any respectable ISF calibrator is going to agree with me (like BJorn's as referenced above). The point they are going to agree on is that calibrating to D65 is not going to be desirable in all environments. From that fact we move to the question: what standard is appropriate? Now we're in subjective territory. I believe if D65 is too dark the next logical step up would be the standard the Asians have adopted as their broadcast standard and the standard that all our tube color TVs have been dancing around: 9300k. What I've found here is an abundance of do-it-yourself videophiles who are not professionals and do not claim to be, but they all seem hell bent on forcing the D65 standard on everyone... It's ignorance and it's offensive. Two days ago, I wouldn't have used such strong words, but the fact is people are being misled here, I certainly was.

And what we have in the case of the CNET review (as well as many a post here) are non-professional calibrators using home calibration tools like the Spyder2Pro that are designed to help you get close to the D65 standard but they do so completely ignoring you lighting conditions, these tools don't have any intelligence they can't reason with you and say "hey, you might not want to calibrate to D65 before you put up some new curtains, change your paint, change your lighting" and who the hell really wants to go through all that? Well a good number of videophile types will, but your everyday joe buying a new HDTV will not and so D65 isn't appropriate for him and he should not measure the quality of his picture against 'proper' settings which are in large part relative to environment.... It's relative because if the picture is too dark to watch who gives a damn if the color is accurate?

We're talking about the difference between being a fool by relying on what someone is telling you is true and using common sense.

Quote:


He seeks only information the makes him feel better about the type of picture he likes. If you want to see a program or movie as it is suppose to be seen, you'll stick to the standards, period.

Nonsense, 'the standard' just isn't for everyone.... even those who think it does look more natural in the right lighting conditions.
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post #25 of 54 Old 02-27-2009, 03:52 PM
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LOL I knew someone will dig up the old statements from post history anyways this account was shared and still is. If you are digging up my experience through post history then I will call you another fanboy who derails the topic by going somewhere where you think you can discredit me. If you have doubts please come to my home and see what I got and tell me if I am a teenager. If I lied, I will give you $500 and if I'm not you pay $500 and a picture of yourself wearing "gullible" hat for wasting my time.

There is always someone out there that gives you opinion of a product that they don't even own.
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post #26 of 54 Old 02-27-2009, 04:27 PM
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Your everyday Joe does not typically buy a 67" DLP either.

Realizing we will never see eye to eye on this, I think with this statement you're coming as close as we possibly can to getting to the heart of our dissagreement. My 67" DLP which your trying to poke at becomes arbitrary to the point. "Average joe" is in fact going to Best Buy and spending $1400-$2500 on DLP, Plasma and LCD displays and has been for a few years now. You can't dispute this.

Any of these displays in a bright environment will likely produce undesirable results at D65. The fact is there is a difference between the home theater room and the family living room and people are putting these high dollar displays in the family room. This you seem to be hard headed and begrudging about.

I have no problem with the accuracy of the color of my 67A750 Samsung. I have no regrets buying it and it's color, picture quality and contrast look great in my den regardless of lighting conditions. I am realistic in that it's not the greatest display on the market, but for it's size I think it is. My problem is with all the buffon's who try to tell me I can't really enjoy my set if I don't have it calibrated to D65... the same buffon's who try to push this standard on everyone even though (as I've pointed out) it should not always be the reference point for perfection.

Again an entire region of planet earth (Asia: Japan, China, Korea) rejects D65 as a broadcast standard anyway... It takes a real narcissist not be just a little more opened minded. You'll notice I've changed my argument from a few days ago... I'm longer saying D65 is wrong, just that in some environments it is. When "average joe" brings home his new set and begins reading these reviews and searching these forums, if he follows the advice available without having all the needed information about lighting, etc... (which was left out of the majority post I read when I first came here) then he's probably not going to be very happy with his picture quality.... After talking to a few real ISF calibrators this seemed to a point of reasoning I could come to, but it seems to be rejected by yourself and I would imagine a great deal of others.

This conversation is really going to have no end... I just encourage those following to reason for themselves, research for themselves and ultimately do what's best for them based on their own conclusions.
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post #27 of 54 Old 02-27-2009, 05:01 PM
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private message me and I'll share with you the settings I've used with the 67A750 that have made me very happy with this set.

Why so secretive? Why won't you post them here. I'd love to give them a try.

The pattern of human vice and folly is to make impulsive choices based upon inflated conceits about what they know and then make defensive excuses for their bad choices. Break the cycle.
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LOL I knew someone will dig up the old statements from post history anyways this account was shared and still is. If you are digging up my experience through post history then I will call you another fanboy who derails the topic by going somewhere where you think you can discredit me. If you have doubts please come to my home and see what I got and tell me if I am a teenager. If I lied, I will give you $500 and if I'm not you pay $500 and a picture of yourself wearing "gullible" hat for wasting my time.

You aren't who you say you are and you don't own the displays you say you own.
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post #29 of 54 Old 02-27-2009, 09:46 PM
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I compared the Samsung 61a750 VS the 52A650 and the LCD a650 had a MUCH better picture. Not even close. I have a Toshiba DLP now and was thinking about getting another one, but after seeing he 52a650, DAM, no way I could sleep at night knowing I could of bought one of those instead. I think I will wait till the LED LCDs come out, I believe they will have a 55" version that will suit me better. I have a 62" now and going to 52" might be drastic.

The best picture I have seen in ANY HDTV, was the a950 led lcd. I hope the new Samsungs look like that one.
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post #30 of 54 Old 02-28-2009, 10:18 AM
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In all scenarios I'm quite certain we had people who took great care (either pre or post calibration) to achieve proper lighting for the environment... [broken record mode on] If you put your set in an environment such as a home theater room where you can control the lighting and the color of the objects around the set that may invalidate the white reference (the fact that you have to do this should tell you something about D65 being not quite right, but whatever, it is the US broadcast standard) then ISF calibration makes sense. For the average Joe going to Best Buy and taking his new DLP, Plasma or LCD HDTV home to the family room or den where he will (most likley) not be taking steps to alter lighting, paint, et. al, trying to best match the D65 color standard will most likley produce undesriable results in terms of brightness and contrast (probably color as well)...

For average Joe (I mean no offense by the term 'average Joe' I think a lot of us fall into this category, it's a hobbyist who wants the best PQ for his HDTV in his environment) to take the advise of those here posting display settings probably achieved using budget-end home calibration tools trying to match the D65 standard (again a standard not even appropriate for average joe unless he makes some serious changes to his environment) is just extreemly unwise.

I would think in almost all cases the end result would be inferior picture quality and not the other way around... one doesn't have to be a pro calibrator (although they do seem to echo this) or even have been at this a while to reason all this.

[broken record mode off]
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