Pioneer Elite Pro-x10HD Shim Mod How-to with other tweaks - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 64 Old 03-15-2009, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm the original owner of a Pioneer Elite Pro-610HD RPTV. This is my experience with performing a shimming modification. How I did it, the results and learnings. I hope this can turn into a tweaking and tips thread that others can use to share experience and also give me some additional tips along the way. I picked up bits and pieces of data for this from other postings here, especially from Owen who came up with this idea, and Mr Bob who also is a big contributor.

My goal was to reduce the overscan as much as possible. I was told this would minimize the about of geometery changes necessary in the service menu. See results and opinions at the end, key word is mimize not eliminate. Apoligize in advance that the pictures are not the best, I'm only a point an shoot photographer. Full disclosure, I have had this TV since June 2000 and it has never be calibrated or tweaked beyond simple user menu. I have recently purchased a 58" Panasonic 58pz800u plasma to replace this TV. I don't want this thread to turn into a RPTV CRT vs plasma debate. I just wanted a project to see if I could make improvements in the old set. Again, see the opinions at the end for more.

To start my overscan in Full HD mode was really bad, especially at the top of the screen. It was somewhere between 10-12% but a good 4% at the bottom so the image was not centered. I'm not sure about the horizontal edges before but I think they were about 5-8%.



I will not cover how to get the front screens off. From this picture you can see the crt assembly has to be raised. Unlike some other sets the Pioneer assembly is angled down which makes this more difficult, especially when it comes to keeping everything parallel and perpendicular where it needs to be. There is a bracket in the front that needs to be unscrewed.



There are 8 screws, 2 in each corner that need to be removed. Don't worry, the flanges keep it from moving.



There is another bracket in the rear bottom that is attached to a black board mounted vertically. However you must remove a horizontal board on top before you can remove this board. But before that you need to remove the IR sensor and set it aside.



I un-screwed the horizontal board and used a couple of screw drivers to pry it up. It was glued and stapled to the vertical board.



My guess is that this bracket and the front bracket keep the crt assembly from sagging in the middle or keep it in position better. I used an angled screw driver to unscrew this board. That was the only thing holding it in place. I removed the vertical board completely because it will impede the shimming. I will have to live without it unless I want to trim it about 1.5" from the bottom so it can be reinstalled.



From the bottom, I made sure that none of the wires would be pulled to tight. I loosed a few of the twist ties but overall, they were ok.



Items you will need. I used a piece of 4' x 1" x 2" pine board with nominal size of .75" x 1.5". I cut 8 pieces of 1" length and 2 pieces of 4.5" length. I stacked 2 pieces together for a piece that was now 1.5" tall by 1.5" W x 1" D. Anything bigger would not allow the 2 screws to be inserted. The other 4.5" pieces will be used on the front bracket.

I used my brad nailer with 1.25" nails to hold them together. Glue would also work.



The screws that are removed are Metric M4. At home depot I purchased M4 7 x 50mm. The 7 is the thread type, I don't know if the original was a 5 or 7 but my 7 seemed to work ok. The length of 50mm was also good since I'm raising it by 1.5". They only had 7 so I lived with 1 less than needed at the bottom/back. I also used some #8 washers and picked up some black paint and foam brush.



Now for the tricky part. I needed to lift the assembly and put the wood shims in place and put a few of the new screws in place at the same time. I managed by myself but it would be much easier with help. I used a few #6 x 2" screws with nuts to hold the top in place while I put them all in place, then I replaced them and trying to get it as parallel as possible (which is almost impossible) These are the results with the horizontal board and IR sensor replaced (clip off the staples and screw the board in place.





Because I was removing the middle support in the rear, I used a few piecses in front to support the bracket. Later I changed the top piece to a furing stripe that was nominal size about 1/8" smaller because the other piece was to tall. Then I screwed the wood to the base and bracket to the new wood. This was my attempt to give it some support in the middle.



After I was done I used the black paint (flat latex) and a black marker to blacked as much as possible. However, the paint does not take well on the aluminum surface but it helps.



The results:

After I turned on the TV the convergence was way off.



Now I had some work to do in the Service menu. I wrote down all the defaults for the coarse convergence for the Full and Full HD modes (i did not bother with the others). I did not change anything in the screen Size adjustments that are global (using the Ant buttom)

I made some minor adjustments to the static (position on screen) and the size adjustments, then pin cushion and Skew. The results for the Full (non-HD) scan rate were very good. I managed to get overscan down to about 3% all around and did the fine convergence in the SM.

Next it was on to adjust the FULL HD mode this is the mode I really care about. I did not have as much luck. I went back and forth with static and size but because of some problems I had with getting the fine convergence at the top and left edge I had to keep the vertical static settings the same (image is still off center vertically). I had to also increase the horizontal size slight due to some convergence issues on th left that caused a red glow on the left.

Currently the results are about 6% on top, 4% on bottom, 3-4% on each size. At the upper left corner and upper 2" and bottom 2" of the screen the convergence seems poor.



What I would like to correct is the convergence around the left and top. From this test pattern you can see some of the problems with the red bleed on the left and the convergence on top and bottom. This convergence does not appear in the service menu so I'm not sure how to fit it.



My next steps will be to attempt to get the geometery and convergence better. I think this is impeding me from having a sharp image. I also wonder if I need to do a eletroncial or mechnical focus. I need some tips on how to get the convergence better. I don't think I have the same problems in FULL 480i s-video mode.

Summary:
My overscan was corrected to better satisfaction, however, I never tried to do this in the SM only so I can't tell if it would have been more difficult or not. It was a lot of work and makes me appreciate the perfect geometery of the plasma. Now I know why CRT RPTVS are dead, consumers hate doing convergence and love geometery perfection of plasma and LCD.

It was a fun project but I don't see any drastic improvement yet but this could be because of my geometery and convergence issues.

Good look and look forward to any advice on the convergence.
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post #2 of 64 Old 03-15-2009, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by gpounders View Post



What I would like to correct is the convergence around the left and top. From this test pattern you can see some of the problems with the red bleed on the left and the convergence on top and bottom. This convergence does not appear in the service menu so I'm not sure how to fit it.



My next steps will be to attempt to get the geometery and convergence better. I think this is impeding me from having a sharp image. I also wonder if I need to do a eletroncial or mechnical focus. I need some tips on how to get the convergence better. I don't think I have the same problems in FULL 480i s-video mode.

Summary:
My overscan was corrected to better satisfaction, however, I never tried to do this in the SM only so I can't tell if it would have been more difficult or not. It was a lot of work and makes me appreciate the perfect geometery of the plasma. Now I know why CRT RPTVS are dead, consumers hate doing convergence and love geometery perfection of plasma and LCD.

It was a fun project but I don't see any drastic improvement yet but this could be because of my geometery and convergence issues.

Good look and look forward to any advice on the convergence.

You need to pay attention to the aging footprint of your CRT faces. On the bottom of your pic the gray along the bottom shows a difference in aging, from brown in the middle to clean gray at the bottom. This is the aging footprint on the CRT faces caused by many years of faithful service. I use 2 rubber doorstops at the rear whenever possible to space my array forwards or back to achieve the correct vertical placement on the screen - yours is up too high on the screen due to the mechanical placement, I believe - but also to achieve the correct angling to the horizon, of your entire pic.

You will also have to redo your optical/mechanical focusing, from having raised your array, which changes your throw distance. No amount of geo/conv can sharpen up your pic when your optical is still out of focus. I recommend the Cantilever Technique.

I have many conv tricks learned thru many, many geo/conv setups of these Elites, and would be glad to share this with you if you want to contact me directly, not by pm please. It is far too detailed to go into here.



Your set is capable of looking MUCH more crisp than it currently does, as evidenced by my doing the same op to a 710 recently in Baltimore, whose screenshots were shown in the Problems with 510 thread that this thread was referenced from.

Aside from the aging footprint concerns, there's no reason your set cannot look every bit as good as the even larger Baltimore 710 in these pix, same year as yours. Keep in mind that the actual display will always look better than screenshots of same. Zoom in specifically on the trouble areas you're mentioning here. Even tho TFE is a 2.35:1 AR, the same exactitude exists in true 16x9 shots as well -


b




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Observe how the top of the BD graphic is cut off, at top of viewscreen. Revealing that the conv is super tight even at the farthest top edge of the viewscreen. Don't worry, it CAN be done.

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After

Overscan redux in action. Not only fully restored lettering, but of several inches of the gray above it as well. Same applies at bottom of screen, restoring the contour of her chin. And all around.

Apply this to sports scores and other graphics your CRT RPTV display is currenty missing and your eyes are starving for, if you've never had it done.

ALL CRT RPTV tech came with overscan as standard equipment, but the original pic can always be restored by someone in the know, again revealing those formerly lost areas of video real estate and at the same time heightening the available to be viewed visible pixel count. And thus heightened, more intense image resolution, both horizontally and vertically

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b

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post #3 of 64 Old 03-29-2009, 12:28 PM
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Mr. Bob asked me to post up some screenshots of my Pioneer 65" 710. I played around with my Panasonic SZ 28. I put the camera on a tripod, and used about a 1/2 sec exposure. I had to play around with the +/- exposure controls as they were coming out too overexposed, plus I have the ability to play with the Kelvin color scale. I just played with it until the LCD screen on the camera matched up with what I was seeing on the CRT screen.

I might add since Mr. Bob supertweaked my set in Nov 08, and then a solder redo of my main board, I can't get enough of my HD from BluRay discs, and DirectTV. I don't have a BD playing computer so unable to do screen saves from my computer. Anyway here were 2 shots I captured. They have been cropped.

Fifth Element


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post #4 of 64 Old 03-29-2009, 10:35 PM
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I have had these shots in the can for weeks, looking for a good time to do it. Keep in mind this can only be done on virgin-level phosphors, with NO aging footprint. Or on freshly regunned sets.

Will start with these -


Green sides - not bad, perfectly centered

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But not fully utilizing CRT face

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post #5 of 64 Old 03-29-2009, 10:36 PM
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Red and blue - not so good. Very badly centered -

centermost section - almost at the edge

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You can see the edge of the CRT face itself in the background as it goes upward from the edge of the image on it

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outermost section - way far away from the edge

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blue at centermost edge, almost touching it

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outermost edge with WAY more space

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Unlike the green gun, R and B VERY badly centered.

This was what I found several weeks ago. I knew I could not let this stand...





b

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post #6 of 64 Old 03-29-2009, 10:37 PM
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I know they used this same array on the 65" version, which explains some of why these outer guns were so badly aimed, but 4 well placed shims on the aiming of just ONE of the sets of the guns between the 2 versions would have taken what - 10 extra minutes of production time??? Probably more like 5...

Overscan starting point, with badly centered r and b -

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Hwid 37 in sm, vertical taken in a bit to make the circle a true circle via yardstick

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hwid 41, to fill CRT face to max allowable on CRT faces

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vhgt 36 starting value

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40 ending value, expanding pic vertically on CRT face. Pic now fits the entire usable area on each CRT face.

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post #7 of 64 Old 03-29-2009, 10:38 PM
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O'scan redux restored after adding another 3/4" of shimming, to 3" total shim, red corrected on centering, blue not yet

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grid version

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red and blue both centered, but uncorrected. Shimming has recaptured the o'scan redux from before, after the expansion of the images on my CRT faces ADDED overscan to gather more CRT face area

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but notice how much work now has to be redone! curves at the edges, keysoning errors, nothing straight anymore...

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this is what 480 looks like totally uncorrected after the add'l shimming

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and this is what program material looked like uncorrected after the shimming, esp noticeable at the side edges...

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post #8 of 64 Old 03-29-2009, 10:39 PM
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Images recentered and expanded out to fill the available phosphor face. My goal is not to achieve as low as 2%, that's really not necessary, so making the images almost hit the edges won't affect what I DO want to see, which is in from that a bit -


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post #9 of 64 Old 03-29-2009, 10:41 PM
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Green turret/lens. Notice that the screw ends from down below are the same on both sides. Actually on all 4 sides. Its aiming was excellent and as such was not altered. Wish the other 2 guns had been that good!

You can see how many times my optical focus has been altered, due to the multiple shimmings. I mark where I start each and every time I do the Cantilever Technique to my set -

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Between the turrets, whose screws didn't move much

Between Blue and green guns

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Red and green guns
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Red outside screw ends, showing how much I had to loosen up those screws to make the outside of the CRT come down enough to tilt it properly. They started out with the same amount of exposure as the green screw ends

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Blue - almost nothing left! Quite a bit of tilt, to re-aim the red and blue properly. Put glue on them to make the screws stay, like the LockTite we used to use for immobilzing tape heads after azimuth alignment -

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4th thickness of shim added, to make 3" total for my 73". Had to use 4" bolts!

Nobody ever said it had to look pretty...






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post #10 of 64 Old 03-29-2009, 10:42 PM
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Didn't notice till everything was uploaded that my camera tilt was off!

Sorry, ain't gonna go back and shoot 'em all over again. These are just some of the total I just shot. Took a long time.

Just know that it was the camera being tilted, not the display!



These were all shot at 1.2MP on my Kodak Z712 IS, on tripod and 2 second timer'd, of course -


b

Sprint commercial

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24

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Casino Royale commercial

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Evening news

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Test patterns. Remember the tilt is at the camera, not the display -

Took vertical sizing in a bit to accommodate the offness of the DVE pattern, which is slightly oval, vertically, when sized properly at the edges. I set my roundness using a shot of the moon, on a broadcast show, I believe on PBS. I am sure it will now match the perfect circles on the ABC and CBS logos as well.


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Final Mits sm settings for height and width

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Joe Kane grid at low contrast

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post #11 of 64 Old 03-29-2009, 10:43 PM
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Any non-linearity you see in the fleshtones is due to the camera being rather close to the pic. If I had shot the scene thru the living room window instead, from 20' away with telephoto, Adama's forehead would not be a different color from the rest of his face.

This kind of thing is always true of CRT RPTV tech, whether you do the shimming op or not. I think it's a factor of the use of fresnel and lenticular lenses to project the images straight thru that dual layer screen and into our eyes - or camera lenses.

Fortunately our eyes are much more forgiving than my camera's lens. I never notice that non-linearity when I am actually viewing video content.

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post #12 of 64 Old 09-15-2009, 12:27 PM
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Just to add a little to what Gpounders started here. I have started doing the shim mod on my Pro 510 HD.

The overscan before looked like this, more than 5% on top and bottom and just a little less than 5% on the sides. Note with any of my pics you can see a bigger view by clicking on the pic and chosing the "full size" option.

BEFORE:



AFTER 1.8" shimming, its now something like 3% top and bottom and between 1% to 3% on the sides:



Still lots of work to do, as you can see the ragged edges on the sides are pretty bad. So far I haven't even gone into the service mode, just did a manual focus of the lenses (using the cantilever technique Mr Bob talks about) and a quick multi-point convergence in the user menu.

For the shimming, I used PVC pipe fittings as they were about the size I wanted to try and I figured as good as wood blocks, plus the hole through the middle leaves room for the screw to go through. Hopefully the PVC won't get hot enough to melt in there.





The board I had to remove from behind the guns to make room for them to move up. I was able to remove the small glued on blocks from the board with a screw driver and a hammer and then I could wiggle it loose from the staples:



Before I started this I deep cleaned the optics as it had NEVER been done. It was pretty bad:

BEFORE:



Once again I followed Mr Bob's advice and didn't touch the optics with anything dry. I used the Sprayway foaming glass cleaner to wet the lens first and carefully wiped one direction. Always using a clean towel surface for every wipe. I removed the lense barrels from the guns to get the lower lense surface and coolant cover too. More info on cleaning: http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/learn...theoptics.html

AFTER:



Looking through the coolant covers it was obvious that these guns are badly burn in. Its hard to get a pic of it, but the red arrows show the foot print edges and the blue lines highlight a God awfull screen burn stripe made by the CNBC stock ticker (thanks CNBC you owe me $5000)





I guess my next step is to go into the service mode and correct some of the under-scan and geometry problems. I have been studing the service manual. Here's a link for a free down load of it, thank you Zodiac: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1815

My goal with this is mainly to learn and get my "baptism by fire" on this burnt-in set so when I start working on my newer Pro 530 HD (with no screen burn) I'll know a bit more how to calibrate it.

Dale
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post #13 of 64 Old 09-15-2009, 01:03 PM
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Hey if you think that's bad, try the "dish" insignia up in the upper left corner of ALL their Guides/Menus, in bright 100% Torch Mode white. I have seen the damage done on units on the other side of the country, and just like yours it's not pretty.



I wish more people were getting mad at Dish I like I have - on several occasions, both by email and phone. Went nowhere of course, but if enough others got mad maybe they'd listen...

You plasma owners - you're next. ANYTHING that uses phosphors is vulnerable -


b

PS - great find, on that PVC. Just so each is totally identical to the others @ 1.8", all 4 of 'em.

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post #14 of 64 Old 09-15-2009, 01:24 PM
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Yeah they were all the same size, so it worked good.

I'll have to call Dish too, my wife likes to sit and look at the Dish guide.

I've noticed MSNBC and the Today show are really bad too. They have large white boxes at "100% Torch Mode". Too bad they don't seem to care about ruining our expensive displays Someone should start a class action suit IMHO.

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post #15 of 64 Old 09-15-2009, 01:54 PM
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I have one guy who called and wants to be part of a class action against them if one ever gets started. His screen has already been damaged by the orbitting Dish graphics when the STB is turned off.

I'll testify as a professional witness, if it comes down to that. I wanted to use my PPL membership to at least threaten them with legal action into doing something about it, but just haven't had the time to pursue it. Expenses in the Bay Area just eat me alive if I don't keep my nose to the grindstone...

Let me know if you want to pursue something like that. Contact me directly, not by pm please -


b

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post #16 of 64 Old 09-15-2009, 03:30 PM
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I'm not sure how they get started, but I've been part of one or two before. I'll keep that in mind, thanks Bob.

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post #17 of 64 Old 09-15-2009, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks mt_goat for the additional information. I like your strategy of the pvc and doing the 510 first. This was a little project for me also. You filled in the blanks for some people with the service manual but the tricky part is how to use it. I had the intention of documenting what I changed and my experience with grey scale adjustment. I saved all my settings in a spreadsheet. I will try to dig this out to upload.
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post #18 of 64 Old 09-16-2009, 04:47 AM
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Thanks mt_goat for the additional information. I like your strategy of the pvc and doing the 510 first. This was a little project for me also. You filled in the blanks for some people with the service manual but the tricky part is how to use it. I had the intention of documenting what I changed and my experience with grey scale adjustment. I saved all my settings in a spreadsheet. I will try to dig this out to upload.

Yes, I noticed it takes a lot of brain power to figure it out. I would be thankful for any tips.

Dale
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post #19 of 64 Old 09-17-2009, 09:24 AM
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I am THOROUGHLY familiar with all the corrections necessary in the Pioneer Elites, and it is a sizeable learning curve, believe me. Only comes natural to me - and I have not used the service manual for years - because I have done so many dozens of them over the years.

I am also authoritative on things you don't find in the service manuals AT ALL, but only thru experience. And huge amounts of info relative to mods they never heard of way back when the service manual was produced, like the ovescan and shimming ops. Lots of this comes from having cut my teeth on ceiling projectors long before CRT RPTVs even came around.

Due to the size and complexity of the info I can only get into it privately, either on location or by phone. Can only do limited submissions/responses on a board like this.

Contact me directly if you wish, at my regular contact info. Not by pm please -


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...Lots of this comes from having cut my teeth on ceiling projectors long before CRT RPTVs even came around....

Boy, that was a looooong time ago. Good to have a pro around to call if I need it.

Dale
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post #21 of 64 Old 09-18-2009, 08:26 AM
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post #22 of 64 Old 09-29-2009, 11:45 AM
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This is an interesting thread, but what I'm not sure about is why is shimming necessary ? The service menu allows you to change the Vert and Horizontal size. If you use those controls can't you just shrink the pic a bit to correct the overscan ?
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post #23 of 64 Old 09-30-2009, 07:03 AM
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The manufacturers didn't want to do the extra work it would take to utilize the full face of the CRTs, so they simply didn't. They kept it simple, as their sets are aimed at mass quantities of Joe Sixpack, bigger the better, not the videophile.

As such a substantial amount of area of the CRT face remains unused in factory CRT triple gun sets. This is lost and very valuable video real estate. This of course does not need to be true of ceiling pjs, where it's all done from scratch.

The shimming op allows for the maximum amount of CRT face possible to be used. That in essence can give you a much larger viewable area, increasing the depth in your images. That's why 9" gun CRT sets look markedly better than 7" gun CRT sets, even when the same size of viewscreen is used in both. This is also true of ceiling pjs, and owners know that for the biggest screens sizes you really can't use the 7" gun pjs.

Just keeping the present o'scan and shimming your CRT array forward towards the viewscreen reduces your o'scan without reducing the image size on your CRT faces and thus preserves - or in my case substantially increased - the orignial amount of screen face utilized. Doing it simply by sm method only reduces the amount of o'scan, but does not grant you those other optical perks.

Doing it via the shimming method is like equipping your set with bigger guns. Either way you can't just reduce the h and w of your pic and be done with it. Reducing o'scan either way hoses any precision your picture once had, and that has to be corrected either way.

That's why even with a Lumagen processor making reducing your o'scan a piece of cake and avoiding the need for correction, you can't get the added optical bennies of the shimming op without actually doing the shimming op.


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post #24 of 64 Old 10-02-2009, 06:32 PM
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Yep -- I had my overscan correction done too early -- before Mr. Bob had perfected the shimming arrangement for Pioneer RPTVs. He did an excellent job of correcting overscan thru the settings alone, but I have no doubt the shim method is better.

Still, I'm very pleased with my picture and have no plan to change now!

Joe
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post #25 of 64 Old 10-02-2009, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czc587 View Post

This is an interesting thread, but what I'm not sure about is why is shimming necessary ? The service menu allows you to change the Vert and Horizontal size. If you use those controls can't you just shrink the pic a bit to correct the overscan ?

After having done it, I agree. I think I would have been just as happy correcting the overscan in the service menu. Mainly because I had to do so much service menu corrections after the shimming. I was hoping the shimming would have eliminated that but it I think it only made it worse. I will try to post my spreadsheet I used to track the values I changed and the method I used. I have no idea if it's right or wrong but it worked enough.

Also, I got the biggest benefit from doing the greyscale adjustment.
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post #26 of 64 Old 10-03-2009, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by joebarnhart View Post

Yep -- I had my overscan correction done too early -- before Mr. Bob had perfected the shimming arrangement for Pioneer RPTVs. He did an excellent job of correcting overscan thru the settings alone, but I have no doubt the shim method is better.

Still, I'm very pleased with my picture and have no plan to change now!

Joe

If you have not used your set so much that a new footprint has been etched into your tubes, you could still have the shimming method done. It wasn't all that long ago that we did your set, so who knows?

As evidenced by the excellent screenshots you've sent in, obviously your pic is already to die for. But if you take a flashlight in and check out whether you have new footprint lines or not, you may just be able to get away with it!



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post #27 of 64 Old 10-03-2009, 09:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I intended to share this much earlier but better late than never. I have attached the spreadsheet I used to track my defaults and the new values. I used hex2dec formulas to calculate the new values for the sizes because I wanted them to stay proprotional. Not sure if that is the best way but it's what I did.

After my shimming the geometry was all messed up. The problem with Pioneer is that each image mode needs to be redjusted. Since I only use Full mode and HD mode, I only corrected those.

First, there are global coarse convergence settings that will affet all modes. The are listed on page 204 of the SM and called the "Screen size adjustments" Instead I used the coarse adjustments for each mode. The first thing I did was to set the static and size values. I need to use static to center the image and size for minor tweaks. Then some minor skew adjustments. It this were you want it because after you do the fine convergence, you can't really change these without doing fine conver. again.

After that I worked on the fine convergence in the SM menu. This was the most tedious and time consuming. I spent many hours trying to get this acceptable (Edit: learning how to do it and trying to be perfectionist)

The last thing I did was to use the Grayscale for dummies and a meter to adjust my grayscale. YOu can see the value changes made. My grayscale was way off due to cranking up wit blacklevel without making the other drive and cut adjustments. The quality of the picture was dramatic after the grayscale. Again with Pioneer you need to adjust the STD mode (s-video input) first then the other modes are just offsets of that mode. I only corrected the Componet HD after that.

Bottomline, I think I would have been just as happy with just doing all the overscan reduction in the service menu (EDIT: just re-positioning the overscan to even out top and bottom) and doing the grayscale. I don't really use this TV much as I have moved on to a Panasonic Plasma.

In THX mode the plasma has almost the same quality blacklevel image an RPTV. Not to start a debate but Plasmas has it's pros and cons and for me, I think the space savings and perfect geometery.

Hope this helps someone.

 

Pioneer 610.zip 5.474609375k . file
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post #28 of 64 Old 10-03-2009, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpounders View Post

After having done it, I agree. I think I would have been just as happy correcting the overscan in the service menu. Mainly because I had to do so much service menu corrections after the shimming. I was hoping the shimming would have eliminated that but it I think it only made it worse. I will try to post my spreadsheet I used to track the values I changed and the method I used. I have no idea if it's right or wrong but it worked enough.

Believe me, it takes a LOT more work to do the sm-only method of o'scan redux on Elites than with the shimming method. The shimming method gets it so close already that only half the sm work is required, whereas in the sm-only method you gotta contend with the width becoming hor linearity beyond a certain point of narrowing your pic, or working with the H size for each particular scanrate, plus the non-linearites of the points between certain parts of the screen and others, getting red and green right but then finding that blue doesn't have as much capacity in its point settings as the other 2 because of Coarse settings not quite matching each other among all 3 colors and then having to redo the other 2 over again to match the more confined blue......

I'd take the shimming method any day over the sm-only method, when comparing the relative amounts of sm work required for each. I've done it both ways, many times each but tons more sm-only than shimming, and that's definitely been my take on it -



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post #29 of 64 Old 10-03-2009, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpounders View Post

Ok, I intended to share this much earlier but better late than never. I have attached the spreadsheet I used to track my defaults and the new values. I used hex2dec formulas to calculate the new values for the sizes because I wanted them to stay proprotional. Not sure if that is the best way but it's what I did.

After my shimming the geometry was all messed up. The problem with Pioneer is that each image mode needs to be redjusted. Since I only use Full mode and HD mode, I only corrected those.

First, there are global coarse convergence settings that will affet all modes. The are listed on page 204 of the SM and called the "Screen size adjustments" Instead I used the coarse adjustments for each mode. The first thing I did was to set the static and size values. I need to use static to center the image and size for minor tweaks. Then some minor skew adjustments. It this were you want it because after you do the fine convergence, you can't really change these without doing fine conver. again.

After that I worked on the fine convergence in the SM menu. This was the most tedious and time consuming. I spent many hours trying to get this acceptable.

The last thing I did was to use the Grayscale for dummies and a meter to adjust my grayscale. YOu can see the value changes made. My grayscale was way off due to cranking up wit blacklevel without making the other drive and cut adjustments. The quality of the picture was dramatic after the grayscale. Again with Pioneer you need to adjust the STD mode (s-video input) first then the other modes are just offsets of that mode. I only corrected the Componet HD after that.

Bottomline, I think I would have been just as happy with just doing all the overscan reduction in the service menu and doing the grayscale. I don't really use this TV much as I have moved on to a Panasonic Plasma.

In THX mode the plasma has almost the same quality blacklevel image an RPTV. Not to start a debate but Plasmas has it's pros and cons and for me, I think the space savings and perfect geometery.

Hope this helps someone.

You coulda saved yourself a lot of time by working with the H Width settings for each scanrate, which avoids the necessity of having to work with the H Size in the Coarse (dot) menu anywhere near as much, where they are much less linear. Don't see those listed here.

In the service manual.


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post #30 of 64 Old 10-03-2009, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
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....Hope this helps someone.

Thank you, this will help me a lot.



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....with Pioneer you need to adjust the STD mode (s-video input) first then the other modes are just offsets of that mode. I only corrected the Componet HD after that...

For the STD mode did you use a regular DVD player with s-video cables inputing a signal? And for the componet HD did you use a Blue Ray player?

Thanks again for the info.

Dale
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