2009 Mitsubishi Owners Thread (C9/737/837) - Page 12 - AVS Forum
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post #331 of 11274 Old 06-09-2009, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

Interesting. I could swear when the new models were first announced, the spec sheet showed them to be a couple inches deeper than last years model. Now, on the main page for the 73737 it shows 17.5" deep (same as the 73736), and if you open the individual spec sheet PDF, it shows 17.9". I thought before the new 73" was around 19" deep, or maybe even a little more.

I saved off those specs sheets locally on 5/7/2009 (according to the date stamp on the pc file). The 73" is very clearly listed at 19.9" deep.

Edit: I just realized I have both a "specsheet" and a "dimsheet" for 73737 saved locally as of 5/7/2009. The specsheet says 19.9". . . but the dimsheet shows 17.9". So, it appears the specsheet was a typo. The 73" is the only one that changed.

And if you compare the revised 737 to the old 736, then you get the 737 are .7" deeper at 60"; .6" deeper at 65"; .4" deeper at 73".
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post #332 of 11274 Old 06-09-2009, 03:13 PM
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So what can we expect the average life-span of the bulbs to be?

Will they gradually dim over time... or do they burn consistently, and just reach a point where it's a sudden big dimming or outage?

By the way, I'm pretty sure this is the same remote control I received with my 1990's Mitsubishi VCR.

One day at a time...
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post #333 of 11274 Old 06-09-2009, 03:52 PM
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Well, not much help here. My 1st gen has done well by bulbs (one replacement in 4.5 years), but those are 120W bulbs. These new ones are 180W bulbs (Mits used 150W bulbs for awhile in earlier models as well).

You hear a lot of opinion on that question, tho I would say keeping good airspace around the set for ventilation/air circulation will definitely help. DLPs really shouldn't go in enclosed entertainment centers and the like as that kind of thing will lead to heat build-up (the fans are trying to blow warm air out of the TV so it needs somewhere to go) and will prematurely age the bulb over time.

Interestingly, this 60" with a 180W bulb has less peak power draw than our 62" with a 120W bulb.
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post #334 of 11274 Old 06-09-2009, 04:01 PM
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When the time comes to eventually replace the bulb, after you do... I suppose it's basically like having a brand new set again?

One day at a time...
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post #335 of 11274 Old 06-09-2009, 06:29 PM
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Of course its like having a new set again. By putting a new bulb in your a pretty much starting back to zero, minus you dont have any problems with the color wheel or any other things go bad with the chips set or mirrors then your good to go!

60737
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post #336 of 11274 Old 06-09-2009, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy nightmares View Post

When the time comes to eventually replace the bulb, after you do... I suppose it's basically like having a brand new set again?

Well, in the 1st gen you needed a mirror cleaning as well to achieve that --but some engineer slapped his forehead soon after and realized that putting mirrors at the bottom of the set facing upwards probably wasn't their. . .err. . .shining. . . moment and fixed it on later models.

What we did was after two years we bought a new bulb and installed it even tho the old one hadn't blown yet, and then put the old bulb in the closet as an emergency replacement. Two years later it is still there awaiting the call.

I'm curious about this "Bright" setting on the Initial --> Lamp menu? What's its purpose? I turned it on to "Bright" (from Energy Star compliant "Standard") and couldn't notice a difference. Perhaps it is meant as a way to give an aging bulb a little extra "juice" in later life? If not, what is it for? After experimenting and not seeing a difference, I put it back to Standard.
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post #337 of 11274 Old 06-10-2009, 01:34 AM
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I recently took possession of a 73837 and overall am very happy minus two things.

One - I have a rather obvious bowing problem which is especially visible on 4x3 programming or when I view my program guide on Dish Network where the bottom 1/3 of the screen appears to bow outwards towards the bottom edges of the screen. It's glaringly obvious while watching 4x3 programming. In HD I don't notice it at all except when using the program guide. It was easy to spot though as soon as I threw up the HD Net test patterns.

Two - I am not new to owning a DLP. My 73837 is an upgrade from a 61" Samsung HLN617W DLP. So I am used to and expect some "white noise" from the television -- i.e. a small "whisper" from the colour wheel spinning and the fan inside the TV. Nothing that even the slightest volume from the TV should have a problem covering up. However, this TV appears to be exceptionally loud in those departments to the point where even moderate volume can't cover up the white noise. Is anyone else having a problem or noticing that the fans and colour wheels on this series of TV's from Mitsubishi are a bit on the loud side?

I called Mitsubishi about the geometry problem and they're sending someone out tomorrow to correct that issue. While they're out I'll also ask them about the inordinantly loud fans and colour wheel and see what the response is regarding that issue.
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post #338 of 11274 Old 06-10-2009, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilEuro View Post

I called Mitsubishi about the geometry problem and they're sending someone out tomorrow to correct that issue. While they're out I'll also ask them about the inordinantly loud fans and colour wheel and see what the response is regarding that issue.

Either you have exceptionally good hearing, or your TV has a problem. The only time I hear my color wheel is when it spins up in the first couple seconds of power-on. I don't hear my fans at all from my sitting position 14' away with no other sound in the room. With the sound off standing right in front of the TV if I listen closely I can hear some fan whisper. This is on a 60". If anything I'd expect a 73" to be more quiet not less, as it has more volume internally and more material in its construction which would tend to deaden sound while generating roughly the same amount of heat (I think the 837 might be 3W more than the 737). My wife, who has the hearing of a bat, would have noticed any kind of continuing whine from the color wheel, so it isn't there on our set.
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post #339 of 11274 Old 06-10-2009, 05:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georule View Post

Either you have exceptionally good hearing, or your TV has a problem. The only time I hear my color wheel is when it spins up in the first couple seconds of power-on. I don't hear my fans at all from my sitting position 14' away with no other sound in the room. With the sound off standing right in front of the TV if I listen closely I can hear some fan whisper. This is on a 60". If anything I'd expect a 73" to be more quiet not less, as it has more volume internally and more material in its construction which would tend to deaden sound while generating roughly the same amount of heat (I think the 837 might be 3W more than the 737). My wife, who has the hearing of a bat, would have noticed any kind of continuing whine from the color wheel, so it isn't there on our set.

My wife has bat hearing, but I was the first of the two of us to notice it. I borrowed a sound pressure meter from a friend of mine and it doesn't register 50 dB at my viewing position (13.5 feet away), but I can hear it as if it was someone talking right next to me. If I put the meter behind the TV at the source of the sound that I hear it comes up as 55 dB at that point.

Like I said, I know to expect the spin up noise of the colour wheel and a soft sound from the fans. This one is neither and it's driving me batty. But I'm also sure it's something that can be corrected with the technician who comes out later today.

Once the geometry issue is taken care of then I'll break out my Spyder 2 and see what modifications I can make to the present picture to dial things in before having a real calibration done in about 2 months after the TV is good and broken in.
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post #340 of 11274 Old 06-10-2009, 07:58 AM
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I realize the sample size is still very small, and the 837's JUST started shipping, but so far it seems the early examples of the 837s are a little more subject to significant geometry issues. You and bkwells are the only two to report geometry issues significant enough to be easily detectable from broadcast content, and you both have 837s. It'll be interesting to see if that trend holds up, or evens out as the sample size increases.

Let us know what they do to fix yours. I suppose if it is significant enough they might replace hardware rather than tweak the software settings as we discovered how to do upstream.
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post #341 of 11274 Old 06-10-2009, 10:54 AM
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So far, the only sign of a geometry issue on my new 65-inch 737...

-- On the PS3 loading/intro/exit screen where there's two solid white lines running horizontally near the top and bottom of screen, the top line is not perfectly straight and smooth... it's a little crooked and jaggy.

But I have not seen any issues during watching/playing content, tv, movies or games. And when watching movies in letterbox my black bars appear straight/even.

So how would you guys say my set is doing in this regard?

Granted I have not loaded any test screens yet. I'm scared to. lol

One day at a time...
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post #342 of 11274 Old 06-10-2009, 11:58 AM
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For those with geometry issues: Are you having geometry issues with the out-of-the-box geometry, after making the best possible adjustments in the SM menu, or with keystone correction disabled?

I am somewhat of a freak about geometry. I have a 65813 that I have spent countless hours on perfecting the geometry using a template over the entire screen. So, the recent posts here are starting to scare me about buying one of these 837's.
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post #343 of 11274 Old 06-10-2009, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by joikd View Post

For those with geometry issues: Are you having geometry issues with the out-of-the-box geometry, after making the best possible adjustments in the SM menu, or with keystone correction disabled?

I *think* everyone is talking out-of-the-box, before adjusting anything.

And judging from the posts I've seen following the thread, it seems the problems were corrected, or at least greatly improved, when they DID start using the manual geometry tweaks in the menu (like you did on your model).

As for "keystone correction"... this is my first DLP so you might as well be talking about rocket science. I'm still waiting for an answer I can understand, about what exactly it does, why you do-or-don't want to use it, and how it relates to geometry and picture quality, etc.

Like I said.... rocket science, twilight zone... whatever... lol

One day at a time...
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post #344 of 11274 Old 06-10-2009, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by joikd View Post

I have a 65813 that I have spent countless hours on perfecting the geometry using a template over the entire screen.

See... that's why I may never run a test pattern. I know myself too well... I would probably become obsessed with making it perfect.

As long as I don't see anything wrong during normal viewing, f**k it.

I'm going to try and exercise self-control and stay the hell away from test patterns and service menu tweaks.

By the way, this reminds me... I think it's time for my medication.

One day at a time...
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post #345 of 11274 Old 06-10-2009, 01:32 PM
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Yeah, I suspect I really didn't need to tweak my geometry even the little bit I did. But once I saw it in the service menu, I just couldn't help myself. "Just a little nudge here, and a tweak there. . . "

And I have no idea what this Keystone thing is either (well, generically I do from computer monitors --but not how it applies to DLPs, nor how to detect and correct it, or disable correction, in Mits TVs, or why I'd want to disable correction), nor if there is a place to go in the SM to make "1-1 pixel mapping" happen.
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post #346 of 11274 Old 06-10-2009, 01:49 PM
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I just got 73837 yesterday, still have 73833, compare to 73833, 73837's pic is better, deeper black, but I found out it has a little rainbow/SSE on bright pic, it's never notice on 833, I thought 837 may use a new screen for brighter pic, may cause some RB/SSE, I like the black level on 837, was planing to put 833 to my parents home, so I switched the screens between the two today, took about 1 hr, now it's perfect, RB/SSE's gone, still bright enough for me, I think Mitsubishi uses higher gain screen for new models now, could bring out some RB/SSE, they should use same screen on 833, RB/SSE are almost non-exist on 833.
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post #347 of 11274 Old 06-10-2009, 09:22 PM
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I had the tech come out today to work on the geometry issue. He spent about 45 minutes to an hour working on it and the geometry is now much improved. The tech did nothing more than what I have seen mentioned here on the board with regards to going through the service menu and playing with the 16 geometry points.

One question... I obviously have seen the bits mentioning correcting the geometry issues. I keep seeing keystone mentioned as well. How does one work on keystone issues? I've read this entire thread and don't recall seeing that a whole lot here or have simply forgotten where it was mentioned.

However, I've already arranged a tradeout of the TV with Ken Crane's because of the incredibly loud light engine and colour wheel assembly. It was as simple as a phone call and they'll swap out the TV with a new on on Saturday afternoon though I could have had it as soon as tomorrow. It just didn't work with my schedule to receive it until Saturday. Hopefully this one will be a lot quieter.

All in all though, love the picture on the TV. Beats the **** out of my old Samsung HLN617W DLP, that's for sure.
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post #348 of 11274 Old 06-10-2009, 10:01 PM
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Just curious --did the tech acknowledge the noise issues while he was there?
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post #349 of 11274 Old 06-11-2009, 12:27 AM
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Yes, he did acknowledge it, but tried to pass it off as something that is "normal" with DLP's. I told him I was familiar with what should be expected. But in reality he was there to work on the geometry issue and nothing more. He could definitely hear it though.

Ken Crane's was easy to deal with and their offer to swap out the TV immediately more than met my satisfaction.
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post #350 of 11274 Old 06-11-2009, 04:52 AM
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Cool. I was more concerned about the likliehood of your new one having the same issue for you. Some unusual sensitivity in your hearing at a certain frequency or some weird thing like that. But if the tech could hear it too, then you've probably got a good chance of getting another that won't have it.
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post #351 of 11274 Old 06-11-2009, 04:54 AM
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Yeah, everyone who has seen the TV can hear it. With no volume it's quite apparent. Almost sounds like a large group of bees buzzing. You've really got to crank the volume up to cover it up.

We'll see how the new one turns out on Saturday.
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post #352 of 11274 Old 06-11-2009, 05:14 AM
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After giving "Game" mode a full workout last night, including multiplayer, I can say it's performance was excellent. No lag at all, that I could detect. Crisp and quick. The graphics are not seriously downgraded, and if you don't like the default setting you still have full control to change color temp, and all normal adjustments contrast/brightness/etc.

I'm not sure exactly what "Game" mode eliminates in terms of processing, but it doesn't seem to be much. On LCDs, you usually take a significant hit to the quality of graphics when you enable Game mode, but that's not the case here.

Anyway... good stuff.

One day at a time...
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post #353 of 11274 Old 06-11-2009, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilEuro View Post

One question... I obviously have seen the bits mentioning correcting the geometry issues. I keep seeing keystone mentioned as well. How does one work on keystone issues?

Keystone is just one aspect of geometry. It is the effect where the width of the picture at the top is different than it is at the bottom. Pincushion would be another type of geometry issue, where the sides bow in or out. But no sense in getting wrapped up over different labels of geometry issues... if your geometry as a whole is good, that would imply your keystone is good (as well as the other variations of geometry issues). Somehow the keystone label has been applied to geometry in general. Can't remember if that's what it's called in the menu, or if someone in the forum just started calling it that.

Regardless, it's good that the unit is getting changed out. Hopefully you might luck into a unit that has better native geometry, which is acceptable without any resolution robbing electronic correction. As far as the noise, on my '08, I can faintly hear the color wheel spin up when the set is first turned on (much like a laser printer), but that sound quickly becomes inaudible once it gets up to speed. The fan, however, I can hear when there's no audio to mask it. I wouldn't classify it as "loud" (certainly not nearly as loud as my PS3 when upconverting SD), but it does bug me that it's audible at all.

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post #354 of 11274 Old 06-11-2009, 07:32 AM
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I've been using the term "keystone" when referring to the geometry adjustments in the service menu (even though it's not the technically correct term). In the threads for last year's models, everyone called the service menu adjustment for geometry "keystone correction" or "auto keystone correction". Maybe Mits. changed the adjustment name in the service menu for the 2009 models? Anyway, from my understanding, not disabling the geometry correction in the service menu (which is enabled by default) does not allow 1:1 pixel mapping, and introduces artifacts. I can only assume that the 2009 models are affected in the same manner, but I'm still holding out hope that something is different on the 82" models--minimal geometry issues with "geometry correction" disabled in the service menu due to the added depth of the cabinet.
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post #355 of 11274 Old 06-11-2009, 09:28 AM
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Hey folks, long post coming,
Brand new here, just bought a 65737 to replace my old toshiba 42" rear projection. Quite a shock. I recommend everyone increase their screen size by 50% whenever possible, really adds to the experience.

That being said, I bought the DVE bluray to calibrate the tv because I couldn't afford to have someone travel out (no isfs by me) to calibrate a broke college students tv. I had several problems using this disc (note: I have never calibrated a tv before, or used test patterns but I consider myself somewhat savvy and figured I could get it in the ballpark).

Brightness: this one was easy, used the pluge pattern. Below black clipped for me at around 34 with 2% barely visible.

Contrast: This one was tricky because I felt like no matter how high I cranked it the white wouldn't clip. I have heard other people with this issue, I didn't think it wise to put contrast all the way up, any suggestions? I liked it at around 42.

Color: This is where it started to spin out of control I used the 75% color bars w/ gray reference test pattern and RGB filter. Did the blue first. Got the cells with blue (bl, cy, mg) to be even with each other and the gray background. So far so good. The green and red were way trickier for me. RED: I am guessng it is more important for the red cells to be uniform than the opaque ones, so thats what I went for. But I just couldn't get them all consistant. I even tried adjusting the individual colors in the ADV picture menu. Closer but not perfect. Ended up adjusting the yellow the most (upwards). Still couldn't get them to look like they did in the tutorial. Tried many combos of adjusting the color, tint, and all the color setting in the menu. No luck. Oh well.

Sharpness: I used the overscan pattern and didn't think the sharpness helped anything so I turned it almost all the way down. Also, i noticed that the picture was a little shifted up and left, so I used the x and y axis adjustment (not what its called in the menu, couldn't remember the name) to center it perfectly. That won't adversely affect the picture will it?

If anyone else has calibrated using DVE, any questions/comments/insults are most appreciated. Sorry about the poor spelling/ grammar.

ps. when is LOTR gonna be able to meet my blu-ray player?
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post #356 of 11274 Old 06-11-2009, 09:45 AM
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You really don't want to push my LotR blu-ray rant button! "Theatrical", phtttppphhhttt!
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post #357 of 11274 Old 06-11-2009, 10:21 AM
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Congrats on the Mitsu DLP! I am sure you will LOVE it! My wife and I (infact, everyone else who has seen it) are still AMAZED with our 60737. The picture quality with Blu-Ray is simply STUNNING.
Don't forget to download your rebate offer! You would get a FREE golf club from Callaway! (see my earlier post #231, I think)
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post #358 of 11274 Old 06-11-2009, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

Keystone is just one aspect of geometry. It is the effect where the width of the picture at the top is different than it is at the bottom. Pincushion would be another type of geometry issue, where the sides bow in or out. But no sense in getting wrapped up over different labels of geometry issues... if your geometry as a whole is good, that would imply your keystone is good (as well as the other variations of geometry issues). Somehow the keystone label has been applied to geometry in general. Can't remember if that's what it's called in the menu, or if someone in the forum just started calling it that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joikd View Post

I've been using the term "keystone" when referring to the geometry adjustments in the service menu (even though it's not the technically correct term). In the threads for last year's models, everyone called the service menu adjustment for geometry "keystone correction" or "auto keystone correction". Maybe Mits. changed the adjustment name in the service menu for the 2009 models? Anyway, from my understanding, not disabling the geometry correction in the service menu (which is enabled by default) does not allow 1:1 pixel mapping, and introduces artifacts. I can only assume that the 2009 models are affected in the same manner, but I'm still holding out hope that something is different on the 82" models--minimal geometry issues with "geometry correction" disabled in the service menu due to the added depth of the cabinet.

Thanks to both of you for trying to get us up to speed.

When I do Menu 2 4 5 7 0, I get as options:

Restore Engine Data From Backup
Restore Geometry Data From Backup
Manual Geometry Alignment
Restore Index Delay
Save Engine and Geometry Setting to Backup

What puzzles me is the idea of "disabling keystone correction" that joikd references. Darin seems to be suggesting geometry correction is disabled at default delivery of a new set, and any use of the Manual Geometry Alignment option (aka "Keystone Correction") to move any of the 16 alignment points would be "turning keystone correction on", with some good (better geometry on a set with a significantly visible geometry issue) and some bad (loss of 1-1 pixel mapping) in doing so --which should be weighed carefully as to the relative merits for each individual set. Joikd seems to be suggesting the exact opposite --that keystone correction comes "turned on" at default delivery and we need/should do something to turn it off so that we can achieve 1-1 pixel mapping that will otherwise not be achievable.

At least that's the way I'm reading what you both said. Which is it? Or can those two ideas actually co-exist with some more context I don't have yet (or improvement in my reading comprehension skills)?

From Darin's explantion, it almost sounds like bkwells should consider restoring his Geometry backup to get his original issue back and then try to demand a new set based on the significant flaw in the native hardware geometry and therefore significant loss of 1-1 pixel mapping to correct it by software tweaks. By pushing his inward bow "out" he created a larger than 1920x1080 viewable area on his set that 1920x1080 source input will have to be massaged by software to fill, and that massage might be very good, but it won't be as good as if the native hardware geometry had filled the screen without it.

My tweak was *really* minor, and I'd be happy to return it to default if doing so made a noticeable difference elsewhere.
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post #359 of 11274 Old 06-11-2009, 01:39 PM
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Is it OFF?
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Originally Posted by georule View Post

Darin seems to be suggesting geometry correction is disabled at default delivery of a new set, and any use of the Manual Geometry Alignment option (aka "Keystone Correction") to move any of the 16 alignment points would be "turning keystone correction on", with some good (better geometry on a set with a significantly visible geometry issue) and some bad (loss of 1-1 pixel mapping) in doing so --which should be weighed carefully as to the relative merits for each individual set.

Or is it ON?
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Originally Posted by georule View Post

Joikd seems to be suggesting the exact opposite --that keystone correction comes "turned on" at default delivery and we need/should do something to turn it off so that we can achieve 1-1 pixel mapping that will otherwise not be achievable.

Yes, this is where things get confusing for me too... whether it's ON or OFF by default, and what exactly the differences are. Not to mention we need to make sure we're talking about the exact same thing(s) since they're not using the term "keystone correction" in the menu.

Note: I separated Geo's paragraph into 2 parts, to make it easier to see the 2 different viewpoints. Thanks again to everyone for sharing your knowledge.

One day at a time...
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post #360 of 11274 Old 06-11-2009, 01:43 PM
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My only reference is last year's models, so I've been just assuming that the same applies to this year's. If you want to know for sure, it might be easiest to display a pattern (multiburst?). Here's a paragraph from one of cid67's posts in the 835 settings and tweaks thread:

"Now,on to your question about the pin cushioning you see. This is what happens when you turn on the manual keystone adjustment. what you are really doing is turning off the auto keystone adjustment that these sets have on by default. this auto keystone correction straitens the geometry to compensate for bowing of the image that has been introduced to Mitsubishi's 08 sets do to the slim cabinet. Thanks to the craze for flatter TVs, Mitsubishi has put style before substance. Anyway, you will see more bowing with this adjustment made but you will also now get full 1080p resolution. You have to decide which is the greater of the two evils. Lower resolution or a slightly bowed image. I wont tell you which one to go with. That's a personal choice."
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