2009 Mitsubishi Owners Thread (C9/737/837) - Page 14 - AVS Forum
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post #391 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darin View Post

Sorry, that is not what I intended to convey. I have an '08, so my comments should be taken with that in mind, but at least with the '08 models, they appear to perform geometry correction at the factory, as it has been turned on as default according to most of the posts I've read. I had to specifically go into the service menu and turn it off. Sorry if I confused anyone.

Agreed. If looking strictly at image quality, a good plasma is a little better than DLP. No geometry issues, almost 180° viewing angle, and maintains contrast in brighter rooms better. But the "softness" of DLP is a double-edged sword. That's mostly due to the wobulation, which also tends to smooth jaggy lines (diagonal lines appear straighter as opposed to jagged). Because if this, DLP doesn't have screendoor effect. There are pros and cons to all display technologies. We have a 42" plasma in one room, and the 73" mits in another, and the mits is by far the preferred display to watch. It's MUCH more immersive. The best way I can describe it is: the plasma looks better if you're looking at the screen, and the DLP is more enjoyable if you're looking at the content.

Every time I say this, people get all up in arms and don't believe me. But no RP-DLP is a true 120hz display. They are displaying a set of pixels from the image 120 times a second, but due to wobulation, each set is only half of the pixels. RP-DLP displays can refresh the entire image every 60th of a second. That's why they can't do 5:5 pulldown to eliminate judder. Their "smooth 120" feature does some interpolation to modify motion effects, and might even do it on the sub-frame level (so the fact that half of the pixels are displayed 120 times a second may still be a benefit). But it's not the same as having a true 120hz refresh rate.

Ok, throw rocks at me. Everyone else does when I say this.

I believe you. I currently have a dvd player that "upconverts" standard dvd's and gives me an option to output either 1080p or 1080p/24. If I purchase a dlp how will this tv process these two options? Will one look better then the other? Will it make a difference if I get the one with the dark detailer? Is the "smooth 120" feature affected by the 1080p or the 1080p/24?
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post #392 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 02:13 PM
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horrible camera, does it no justice!


60737
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post #393 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newmason View Post

horrible camera, does it no justice!


Wow that is a great picture. What size is your HDTV?
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post #394 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 04:27 PM
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Got my 60737 delivered from BestBuy yesterday. I set it up, but am under the weather so I didn't play around with it until today.

Ok, I don't have a calibration disc anymore so I used common sense and set it to Natural, turned off sharp edge, color temp low.

I don't know how I feel about the display, honestly.



1. Lots of digital mosquito noise, all sources. All noise reduction and image enhancements are disabled.

2. Smooth 120Hz doesn't seem to add frame interpolation, just adds an annoying grid. Walk up to your screen and turn it on and off, you'll see what I'm talking about. Enabling this also adds *more* digital noise.

3. "Sparkly" angular reflective high-gain Screen texture. I don't see the benefits of this screen material, and why they couldn't have just used a high-gain non-sparkly retro reflective screen.

4. My convergence isn't so good, quite noticeable on text.

5. Sharpness appears a little soft, maybe it's slightly out of focus or just a factor of the bad convergence listed above.

6. Lack of S-Video input. I knew about this before purchasing the set, but still, what gives?

The viewing angles aren't fantastic, and I do see the rainbow effect sometimes on white text when moving my head. But being a DLP RPTV, I suppose I was expecting that.
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post #395 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 05:08 PM
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Well, as a someone who is considering buying a new Mits., your observations are very concerning to me.

When I looked at the 65737 at Fry's, I noticed a ton of noise, too. I was able to reduce it greatly by turning off as many "features" as I could find, but some noise still remained. The only two things I couldn't find to disable were Smooth 120 and the auto geometry correction in the service menu. I know how to disable those now, so when I go back, I'll try again. Although, it sounds like disabling Smooth 120 won't eliminate all of the noise. I guess all of my hopes are on disabling the geometry correction. You might want to try that, and see if it helps. I'll report back, too, when I get a chance to go back to Fry's. I also heard that the 82 inchers will have a different type of screen. If that's true, maybe that will help with the sparkle issues.
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post #396 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joikd View Post

Well, as a someone who is considering buying a new Mits., your observations are very concerning to me.

When I looked at the 65737 at Fry's, I noticed a ton of noise, too. I was able to reduce it greatly by turning off as many "features" as I could find, but some noise still remained. The only two things I couldn't find to disable were Smooth 120 and the auto geometry correction in the service menu. I know how to disable those now, so when I go back, I'll try again. Although, it sounds like disabling Smooth 120 won't eliminate all of the noise. I guess all of my hopes are on disabling the geometry correction. You might want to try that, and see if it helps. I'll report back, too, when I get a chance to go back to Fry's. I also heard that the 82 inchers will have a different type of screen. If that's true, maybe that will help with noise issues.

I was considering exchanging the set, but if the display you saw had this noise issue as well, it's probably inherent to this model. Yes, disabling Smooth 120Hz in the global settings does get rid of the weird grid and reduce the noise a little bit, but not completely. My geometry is out of whack, but all I could find in the service menu was horizontal/vertical postion, no trapezoid or keystone? There are options for different video levels, but I couldn't get less noise playing with them, only more.

I picked up this display because it was the most affordable way to get 1080p and stereoscopic 3D. However, since we need to use a PC to achieve Stereo 3D, and PCs definitely require good convergence to get an acceptable sharp image, my 60737 simply won't do.

This display is going back for sure.
I'll check out what other 1080p Stereo 3D displays have to offer, and hopefully something exists worth buying now or within 2009.

I'm almost certain that many of the 737s must hopefully have better convergence and focus than mine, I don't mean to thread crap. In my situation, it's definitely "You get what you pay for".
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post #397 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

Got my 60737 delivered from BestBuy yesterday.
I don't know how I feel about the display, honestly.

1. Lots of digital mosquito noise, all sources. All noise reduction and image enhancements are disabled.

The viewing angles aren't fantastic, and I do see the rainbow effect sometimes on white text when moving my head. But being a DLP RPTV, I suppose I was expecting that.

When you enable the Noise reduction what effect does it have? What sources were you feeding the TV with?
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post #398 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bama29 View Post

When you enable the Noise reduction what effect does it have? What sources were you feeding the TV with?

Noise reduction doesn't affect the digital noise the display is producing, just noise from the source. Noise reduction is never good anyway, but yes, I did play with it hoping to possibly tackle the noise problem.

Source inputs were both component and HDMI, 1080i HD cable broadcast and 1080p Xbox 360.
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post #399 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

Noise reduction doesn't affect the digital noise the display is producing, just noise from the source. Noise reduction is never good anyway, but yes, I did play with it hoping to possibly tackle the noise problem.

Source inputs were both component and HDMI, 1080i HD cable broadcast and 1080p Xbox 360.

I am sure you are disappointed. I sure would be. I was hoping to possibly go this way for a large screen solution. Since I have no place to view DLP's around here I am relying on reviews and opinions. It does give me concerns...
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post #400 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

I was considering exchanging the set, but if the display you saw had this noise issue as well, it's probably inherent to this model. Yes, disabling Smooth 120Hz in the global settings does get rid of the weird grid and reduce the noise a little bit, but not completely. My geometry is out of whack, but all I could find in the service menu was horizontal/vertical postion, no trapezoid or keystone? There are options for different video levels, but I couldn't get less noise playing with them, only more.

I picked up this display because it was the most affordable way to get 1080p and stereoscopic 3D. However, since we need to use a PC to achieve Stereo 3D, and PCs definitely require good convergence to get an acceptable sharp image, my 60737 simply won't do.

This display is going back for sure.
I'll check out what other 1080p Stereo 3D displays have to offer, and hopefully something exists worth buying now or within 2009.

I'm almost certain that many of the 737s must hopefully have better convergence and focus than mine, I don't mean to thread crap. In my situation, it's definitely "You get what you pay for".

DLP TVs are single light source devices. There is no convergence.
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post #401 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 06:39 PM
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ResOGlas, I haven't seen anyone else reporting unusual noise of that nature in the owners thread yet, and I haven't seen any myself, so it makes me believe you might have just been unlucky and gotten a unit with a specific defect or issue. I wish I knew the answer for you. Good luck, I hope everything turns out OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Omoregie View Post

Oh, I even requested SERIAL # 1 from Mitsubishi.

Are you serious? What was their reply?

One day at a time...
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post #402 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post

DLP TVs are single light source devices. There is no convergence.

So I guess mine is just out of focus?


Quote:
Originally Posted by happy nightmares View Post

ResOGlas, I haven't seen anyone else reporting unusual noise of that nature in the owners thread yet, and I haven't seen any myself, so it makes me believe you might have just been unlucky and gotten a unit with a specific defect or issue. I wish I knew the answer for you. Good luck, I hope everything turns out OK.

I bought this display sight unseen from BestBuy dot com. I'll drive over to a local Fry's and see if they have a 737 on display to compare to mine.
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post #403 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 06:57 PM
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Res, you are in California? Hopefully you have a better chance of seeing them in person than me. I'm in Texas, and even though BestBuy, Frys and Conns all have a major presence here, none seem to carry the big screen DLP models in the stores. Only the central warehouse, because the boxes are so big (that's what they told me). Heck, most of the retail stores don't even have display floor models. It makes me wonder how DLP can survive if shoppers can't lay their eyes on them.

I would have loved to compare a 737 and 837 side-by-side, but it's impossible.

One day at a time...
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post #404 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 07:05 PM
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Back to the Keystone Correction, (or whatever it's being called now).

Guys, I think all the information we need can be found in the various posts from Darin regarding his '08 model, however the problem is we have not established for sure whether or not these new '09 models have the feature/process turned ON or OFF by default.

In order to make use of Darin's information, we must figure this out.

How shall we do that?

One day at a time...
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post #405 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy nightmares View Post

Back to the Keystone Correction, (or whatever it's being called now).

Guys, I think all the information we need can be found in the various posts from Darin regarding his '08 model, however the problem is we have not established for sure whether or not these new '09 models have the feature/process turned ON or OFF by default.

In order to make use of Darin's information, we must figure this out.

How shall we do that?

Mine definitely needs some keystone correction. My set has a lot of overscan to try to hide the bowed top of the screen. My guess is that the default is off.

On RPTVs, why isn't the internal light path centered with the screen to avoid the keystone issues?
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post #406 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy nightmares View Post

Res, you are in California? Hopefully you have a better chance of seeing them in person than me. I'm in Texas, and even though BestBuy, Frys and Conns all have a major presence here, none seem to carry the big screen DLP models in the stores. Only the central warehouse, because the boxes are so big (that's what they told me). Heck, most of the retail stores don't even have display floor models. It makes me wonder how DLP can survive if shoppers can't lay their eyes on them.

I would have loved to compare a 737 and 837 side-by-side, but it's impossible.

Im in Ft. worth area and was able to see both 73 837 and 60+ 737's at frys..

all 737's are side by side but 837 has its own lil kiosk.. 837 front piece of bezel feels real cheap to me IMHO..837 and 737's were not showing same loop

Ps Last year my dad bought a 65 735 i believe and grand father also @ same store same day.. My dad's looked like crap horrible!!! smudgey, alot of noise etc..But my grandpas is friggin perfect it seems great pic for DLP andhardly any noise we all have same service providers and he lives 2 blocks away so whats up w/ that?? is there really that much differnce in each set w/same model #???
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post #407 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 08:33 PM
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I bought my WD60737 from Frys about 2 weeks ago. Got them to price match Ultimate Electronics for $995.00 and I am still AMAZED at the picture quality!

As far as some other reviewers NOT being happy with their new Mitsu DLPs, I am sorry to hear about that. It might be shipping/delivery bumping the TV around OR... maybe some people here are TOO OVER CRITICAL?

I mean come on.......do you REALLY expect a $995 60" DLP 1080p TV w/120Hz refresh to outperform a $3,000 - $5,000 HD 1080p Plasma/LCD w/600Hz refresh? Really?

I didnt.....but I will tell you this......I LOVE my new Mitsu DLP and I am truly amazed with its picture quality on SD/HD/DVD/Blu Ray.

Honestly, I feel like I got the "deal of deals" on this DLP. Not to mention, I just mailed in my REBATE for a FREE Odyssey Sabertooth putter ($180 value)
thanks to Mitsubishi!!

To potential buyers: I think you will be VERY pleased with this DLP TV, as long as you keep in mind that it is NOT going to be perfect in every way like some people here want it to be. If you want a "perfect" TV (not that one even exists) go spend $70,000 on the 103" Panasonic Plasma.
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post #408 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 08:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newmason View Post

horrible camera, does it no justice!





LOOKING GREAT!! What a SWEET PICTURE!
CONGRATS!!
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post #409 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happy nightmares View Post

Back to the Keystone Correction, (or whatever it's being called now).

Guys, I think all the information we need can be found in the various posts from Darin regarding his '08 model, however the problem is we have not established for sure whether or not these new '09 models have the feature/process turned ON or OFF by default.

In order to make use of Darin's information, we must figure this out.

How shall we do that?

Here's some posts regarding the 2008 models:

1.
Originally Posted by rosros
jimlely


also do not forget to turn off the auto keystone, if you do not do this you will not get true 1:1 pixel mapping. click menu, type 2457, type 0, scroll down to manual keystone option, hit enter, hit enter, hit exit.

hope this helps.

\\


Thanks very much.

Coincidentally I turned off auto keystone about a week ago and the resolution charts on the Blu-ray DVE show significant improvement.

Jim


2.
Originally Posted by jdwk
Anyone achieve 1:1 pixel mapping with this TV going from HTPC via DVI->HDMI?

I was unable to do this with the 65835 at the store. Best I could do was a grey box with a checkerboard bitmap map.

I was wondering if there was some hidden setting I need to turn off/on, or if you need to use a specific HDMI port.

The only way I was able to get a decent PC image on my WD52725 was through VGA and the 60735 Mits is giving me doesn't have a VGA.

You have to turn off the electronic geometry control... but it will do it and do it well

craigr


3.
Originally Posted by cid67
press menu 2457 than 0 than go into manual pin cushion adjustment. now press enter and exit out of the service menu. this should get you 1:1 pixel.

Ah! There you go.

craigr


2009 models (earlier in this thread):

4.
saxophone4
Only for the keystone correction.

For my WD-73737
After menu 2-4-5-7, in the service menu I hit 0 to get to the keystone correction.

The option wasn't listed like it was on the 73736 I had, so I hit manual geometry set..or something to the sort, and then I hit enter.

When I exited the Service menu, the television was able to pass the 1:1 pixel test for 1920X1080p...it was failing it before hand, just as the WD-73736 had before turning off keystone correction.

Does anyone know if this is the proper way to set this??? I do notice a slight geometry issue in the top left corner now...only noticable in letterbox that the line curves slightly up towards to far left top.
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post #410 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paullouisj View Post

Im in Ft. worth area and was able to see both 73 837 and 60+ 737's at frys..

Hmmm... that's only about a 45 minute drive from me... so I might check it out this weekend.

I just want a chance to compare the Dark Detailer feature, to see if it's worth the extra money upgrading to the 837 from the 737, while I still have the chance. But if they aren't side-by-side, and running 2 different feeds, that would make it difficult to give the Dark Detailer a fair chance.. hmmm... not sure if the trip would be worth it. Paullouisj, did you feel you had a decent opportunity to compare, and did you notice any real differences?

I'm happy with my new 737 overall, and feel it's a terrific bargain. Increasing the cost by over 30% would effect the bang-for-buck in a big way... so the Dark Detailer would have to make a significant improvement to justify the extra money. I'm willing to pay the extra cost and upgrade, but only if it's truly worth it.

P.S. - Guys, I'm a little behind reading and replying in this thread...

One day at a time...
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post #411 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joikd View Post

Here's some posts regarding the 2008 models:

1.
Originally Posted by rosros
jimlely


also do not forget to turn off the auto keystone, if you do not do this you will not get true 1:1 pixel mapping. click menu, type 2457, type 0, scroll down to manual keystone option, hit enter, hit enter, hit exit.

hope this helps.

\\


Thanks very much.

Coincidentally I turned off auto keystone about a week ago and the resolution charts on the Blu-ray DVE show significant improvement.

Jim


2.
Originally Posted by jdwk
Anyone achieve 1:1 pixel mapping with this TV going from HTPC via DVI->HDMI?

I was unable to do this with the 65835 at the store. Best I could do was a grey box with a checkerboard bitmap map.

I was wondering if there was some hidden setting I need to turn off/on, or if you need to use a specific HDMI port.

The only way I was able to get a decent PC image on my WD52725 was through VGA and the 60735 Mits is giving me doesn't have a VGA.

You have to turn off the electronic geometry control... but it will do it and do it well

craigr


3.
Originally Posted by cid67
press menu 2457 than 0 than go into manual pin cushion adjustment. now press enter and exit out of the service menu. this should get you 1:1 pixel.

Ah! There you go.

craigr


2009 models (earlier in this thread):

4.
saxophone4
Only for the keystone correction.

For my WD-73737
After menu 2-4-5-7, in the service menu I hit 0 to get to the keystone correction.

The option wasn't listed like it was on the 73736 I had, so I hit manual geometry set..or something to the sort, and then I hit enter.

When I exited the Service menu, the television was able to pass the 1:1 pixel test for 1920X1080p...it was failing it before hand, just as the WD-73736 had before turning off keystone correction.

Does anyone know if this is the proper way to set this??? I do notice a slight geometry issue in the top left corner now...only noticable in letterbox that the line curves slightly up towards to far left top.

No "exit" button on my remote, nor any reference to a button to hit to "exit" with on the Manual Geometry Alignment screen. When I hit "Enter" the second time, per the instructions, I'm returned to the same screen where you would then hit "0" to get the menu options that include Manual Geometry Alignment. If I re-enter Manual Geometry Alignment at that point, darned if I can notice any difference in the screen from the last time I was there.
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post #412 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 09:18 PM
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Mine is a 60737. If anyone needs anymore pictures let me know and ill be happy to shoot some and post

60737
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post #413 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videoguy60467 View Post

DLP TVs are single light source devices. There is no convergence.

If this isn't convergence, is it my focus??

Edit: Ok, I read that this color fringing is called "chromatic aberration" and is a problem with the optics. :/
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post #414 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 10:54 PM
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You actually have that line break on the vertical white line? Have you messed with the geometry already?
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post #415 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georule View Post

You actually have that line break on the vertical white line? Have you messed with the geometry already?

When I enter the service menu, I only get 6 options. horizontal/vertical position, Red level, Green level, Blue level, a setting that lets me toggle the color temp high and low, and a setting that just blows out the whites if you enable it (lol?).

My geometry is in desperate need of a keystone option, I would have messed around with it had Mitsubishi included more options, but this "chromatic aberration" was like this out of the box. Today was the first day I got to play with this beast, BTW.



On a prior note, I did stop by fry's this evening. They had the 60, and 72" 737s on display, and a 65" 835. They all looked to have the same sparkly screen material, and all 3 had the digital noise I mentioned.

Tonight I watched an HD video, paused it, and the digital noise keeps on dancin'. I hope Mitsubishi addresses this with a firmware update.
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post #416 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 11:10 PM
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I was able to look at the 73737 and 73837 side by side at Abt today. At first the 837 was playing the Mitsubishi HD loop...butterflies, Indy cars, cheerleaders, etc. It looked pretty good though some areas of gray color and the cheerleaders' midriffs had a lot of noise. Now I also saw a 73837 at Best Buy and it was running the same loop and it looked flawless in terms of noise. I have to assume there is either some setting difference between the two or some weird build variability.

Back to the 737 and 837 side by side. Once I got them to play the same video signal in to both (ESPN HD) I could compare the two and I would have to say they looked identical. According to the guy on the floor all of their TVs are straight form the box in terms of settings so I am assuming that both of these were also. I didn't notice any difference at all in terms of color, contrast, noise...nothing. They looked pretty good. I'm not sure why, but there really wasn't any noise on the 837 with the ESPN feed as opposed to the Mitsubishi loop. Weird.

I have to say that the pictures from the Mitsus looked a bit softer and not as "perfect" as the plasmas next to them, but they didn't look at all bad either. Just softer. Blacks were very good. There was also a LaserVue and I certainly can't see any reason to get it seeing as it looked a little worse or at least no better that the 737 or 837 and costs almost $7000 MSRP.

I ended up ordering a 73837. I know I just said I couldn't see a difference, but I figure maybe it has more calibration potential. If not, I have 90 days to return or exchange it...maybe the 82" will be available by then too.
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post #417 of 11280 Old 06-12-2009, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Sluffo View Post

It looked pretty good though some areas of gray color and the cheerleaders' midriffs had a lot of noise. Now I also saw a 73837 at Best Buy and it was running the same loop and it looked flawless in terms of noise. I have to assume there is either some setting difference between the two or some weird build variability.

I hope this is just a setting. I'll call Mitsubishi tomorrow and see what they say about it.

I believe I've messed with every setting on the TV, and can't come up with a solution. If anyone can check their display, pull up that horizontal menu bar that comes up on the bottom of the screen when you adjust any setting (including volume) and take a good look at it. Mine is plagued with noise.

Since I'm probably going to exchange this unit anyway, maybe I'll get an 835 just for the better remote and S-video input. That is, unless anyone knows of a specific 1080p 3D model without the sparkly screen?
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post #418 of 11280 Old 06-13-2009, 12:55 AM
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Sorry to rain on the parade again, you guys can probably assume I'm rather picky considering 2300+ posts on AVS...

Anyway, I hooked up my Neo-Geo (480i, composite) and there are visible rainbows everywhere. Here's a screenshot comparing my 1080i CRT above, and my 1080p DLP below.

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post #419 of 11280 Old 06-13-2009, 01:34 AM
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Res,

I think there is something wrong with your specific TV... a defect or abnormality.

The 'noise' thing you mention is especially baffling, because no other owners have reported such a problem, and if all these sets had the problem, you would think somebody else would have noticed it. I myself am usually sensitive to such issues, and just recently switched cable-tv providers, and immediately noticed a difference between TimeWarner and AT&T, with AT&T's video compression causing a weird dancing/moving pixel effect. I'm also sensitive to the line bleeding of plasmas, and if there's flashlights or light leakage on an LCD, I will spot it right away.

I can understand the sensitivity to a particular screen surface, and how some people's eyes/vision might be more sensitive to it, but noise in the picture is another thing. Either it's there -- or it's not. And if there was noise everywhere, on these models in general, we should all be seeing it. Right?

One day at a time...
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post #420 of 11280 Old 06-13-2009, 01:46 AM
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if there was noise everywhere, on these models in general, we should all be seeing it. Right?

I do hope so. So if you pull up **any** adjustment (volume, contrast, sharpness, brightness, etc etc) and look at the bar on the bottom of the screen, you don't see lots of digital noise in it?
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