2011 Mitsubishi DLP WD-73640 official thread - Page 26 - AVS Forum
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post #751 of 1899 Old 01-16-2012, 10:40 PM
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Thanks for replying, Alaskan. Did you watch the videos to their end?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan_awd View Post

A) your test image is not 1080p

Doesn't matter at all. The point is to compare what the image should look like vs what it looks like.

I know the image is 1800x1000. To boot, I filmed an even smaller portion inside it. But it was displayed with 1-to-1 pixel mapping (not stretched nor scrunched), with geometry correction turned off. Just as it was on my LCD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan_awd View Post

B) the images you pulled off of google have horrible jpeg compression, especially the Stripped PJ's

Doesn't matter at all. The point is to compare what they should look like vs what they look like.

But, no, they do not have horrible JPEG compression. They have compression, but, for their fine detail, it is far from horrible. I have been pixel peeping image compression for 15 years. See my recent analysis of Facebook image compression at: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=5d68b201a9


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan_awd View Post

C) i just made a true 1920x1080 image in photoshop (I did save it as a jpeg but with max quality so very little compression artifacts), made a bunch of 1 pixel red lines that spanned the entire image and had 1 pixel high white lines between them, saved it to a thumb drive and threw it into the bluray player, the lines were perfectly displayed.

Wrong test. I posted earlier how a "1 pixel-wide red horizontal line on white" is red, a "2 pixel-wide red horizontal line on white" is red, but a "3 pixel-wide red horizontal line on white" is BLACK. That's one test. The test image demonstrates some 30 others.

Could you do me a favor and turn off you sharpening, and test with 3 pixel-wide red horizontal lines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan_awd View Post


D) the sharpness setting should not do what you are saying, there is very little difference that the sharpness setting makes between 0-30,

I'm open to that being an other defect of my set, but I doubt it. I owned a 2009 WD-65737 and it had the same lousy "unsharp mask" sharpening algorithm. No difference between 0-30 on yours would imply it's tuned off by some other setting (the 2009 models had that problem: the number setting not taking effect unless some other setting was on.)

As to my description of the sharping method on this TV, it isn't incorrect, however simplified.

I have also been pixel peeping sharping algorithms for 10 years.

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Originally Posted by Alaskan_awd View Post

it did not mess up the 1px red lines at all, even maxed out there were still 1px red lines with 1px white lines between them.

Wrong test to visualize the effects of over sharpening.

My TV passed this test too, except that: at Sharpness level 36 - and exactly 36, not before or after - the red lines turned black. Could you please report on this with your set? Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan_awd View Post


I've said it severaltimes these aren't meant to be monitors.

I used my 2009 65" WD-65737 for browsing the web, displaying my photos, and playing computer games all the time.

It would be one thing if the technology blurred everything, had artifacts with every fine detail, but here we have a case of only certain colors, skin tones for crying out loud, displaying defects that do not appear in other colors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan_awd View Post


Also your comparison of your LCD monitor to your tv is flawed, how can you compare a screen that has a pixel that is several times larger, no wonder you can see the bad compression artifacts on the tv so much easier.

My comparison of my LCD monitor to my TV - for this subject matter - is not flawed at all. I moved the camera in close to my LCD monitor to film at 1080p the same area of pixels - the same number of pixels horizontally and vertically as on the TV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan_awd View Post


Clearly this is a problem with the content or signal you are sending or your tv is messed up.

??? Well of course it's one of those!

And it's not the content. I took great pains to demonstrate and explain that.

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post #752 of 1899 Old 01-16-2012, 11:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

Thanks for replying, Alaskan. Did you watch the videos to their end?

Doesn't matter at all. The point is to compare what the image should look like vs what it looks like.

I know the image is 1800x1000. To boot, I filmed an even smaller portion inside it. But it was displayed with 1-to-1 pixel mapping (not stretched nor scrunched), with geometry correction turned off. Just as it was on my LCD.

Doesn't matter at all. The point is to compare what they should look like vs what they look like.

But, no, they do not have horrible JPEG compression. They have compression, but, for their fine detail, it is far from horrible. I have been pixel peeping image compression for 15 years. See my recent analysis of Facebook image compression at: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=5d68b201a9

Wrong test. I posted earlier how a "1 pixel-wide red horizontal line on white" is red, a "2 pixel-wide red horizontal line on white" is red, but a "3 pixel-wide red horizontal line on white" is BLACK. That's one test. The test image demonstrates some 30 others.

Could you do me a favor and turn off you sharpening, and test with 3 pixel-wide red horizontal lines?

I'm open to that being an other defect of my set, but I doubt it. I owned a 2009 WD-65737 and it had the same lousy "unsharp mask" sharpening algorithm. No difference between 0-30 on yours would imply it's tuned off by some other setting (the 2009 models had that problem: the number setting not taking effect unless some other setting was on.)

As to my description of the sharping method on this TV, it isn't incorrect, however simplified.

I have also been pixel peeping sharping algorithms for 10 years.

Wrong test to visualize the effects of over sharpening.

My TV passed this test too, except that: at Sharpness level 36 - and exactly 36, not before or after - the red lines turned black. Could you please report on this with your set? Thank you!

I used my 2009 65" WD-65737 for browsing the web, displaying my photos, and playing computer games all the time.

It would be one thing if the technology blurred everything, had artifacts with every fine detail, but here we have a case of only certain colors, skin tones for crying out loud, displaying defects that do not appear in other colors.

My comparison of my LCD monitor to my TV - for this subject matter - is not flawed at all. I moved the camera in close to my LCD monitor to film at 1080p the same area of pixels - the same number of pixels horizontally and vertically as on the TV.

??? Well of course it's one of those!

And it's not the content. I took great pains to demonstrate and explain that.

I'll have to do more testing later this week i'm flying out to a village for a few days for workand have to get up at 2:30.

In the image I made I did actually make 1 pixel lines, 2, 3 and 4, I did notice the the 3 pixel lines were rendered a darker shade of red, but not black. I'll spend more time testing this weekend.

I haven't seen anything in regular viewing however and I sit 7' away, if you have to pause something to see an issue, it isn't an issue.
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post #753 of 1899 Old 01-16-2012, 11:29 PM
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Thanks again, Alaskan.

I am sad to inform you that, if your 3-wide horizontal line turned darker than it should be, your set has the same defect as mine. I suspect you have geometry correction on, which can make the pure red-to-black not occur as abruptly. Darker shade of red sounds right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan_awd View Post

if you have to pause something to see an issue, it isn't an issue.

I agree, but the artifacts this defect introduces do not require pausing. I see them all the time, on almost every TV program, and almost every movie - much more in some than others: it all depends on the colors and detail of the content! For example, the U.S.A HDNet presentation of Pearl Harbor in the last few weeks was nearly perfect. At least in terms of noticeable artifacts, teeth and lips garbling. But who knows what part of it should have been sharper than what the TV showed?!

In addition to very noticeable artifacts, this defect means that much of the content you are viewing is being blurred, even though you may not realize it, thinking what you see is in the source. Just knowing this REALLY bothers me, as I want to have only the source to blame for artifacts and loss of detail, not my own TV!

Said another way, this TV is supposed to look a lot sharper than it does - is supposed to be even better than it is. I have high hopes of getting Mitsubishi to fix this, or make it right. I don't want to just return the set: I love these sets, and I got it at a great price.

Thanks for doing more testing when you can. Since your Blu-Ray player has a USB port to which you can connect a thumb-drive, you can test with the same test image I posted (also available at my website) I have now replaced it with a JPEG version at minimal compression (Photoshop CS4's Level 12 / 100 Quality). Since it is not 1920x1080, but 1800x1000, you may have to choose some option in your blu-ray player to turn off any up-scaling. If that's not available, you can always paste it into "real 1080p" image.

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post #754 of 1899 Old 01-17-2012, 05:32 AM
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thhowl: I do television maintenance, and the symptom you describe is simelar to a feature in television camera's enhancement circuits.....
Where skin tones are detected, and enhancement for that color are (adjustable) is reduced.... The plan is to make TV Actors not look as wrinkled, yet enhance other image colors, like hair, clothing, etc.

There is an easy enough way to determine if this is happening.... Get a picture, display it on Mits, and crank up the detail/enhancement....
If details in the picture increase, but face detail doesn't.... You have your proof.

Consumer HD camcorders have this feature too... So I'm thinking that it is not a stretch that this is happening here, too....

Unfortunate thing is: If a camera is set to do this by "Network Standards"..... Doing it again in downstream hardware is going to be counter-productive...

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post #755 of 1899 Old 01-17-2012, 06:35 PM
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You know, I thought of something else it might be....
I did not look real closely, but.... Are Blue's 'soft' too?
If it's red and blue that's soft, the enhancement circuitry could be based on Green, and that would account for the soft red and blue images....

But... If Blue is sharp, and only Red's and flesh colors that are soft.... it's back to the Flesh colored enhancement reduction circuitry I mentioned before...

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post #756 of 1899 Old 01-17-2012, 08:51 PM
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Thanks, Jan J. I've heard of those skin-smoothing image enhancements. However, the TV's defects I demonstrate in the videos go well beyond smoothing: they introduce white lines inside dark areas and grey splotches inside white areas - even solid black lines.

Blues are not soft. The video purposely shows how sharp facial details become when shifted to blues, greens, purples... anything even a little away from the range of peach colors & skins tones (reds and browns) where the defect occurs.

BTW, the TV's "Blue Only" setting is not the same as sending it a blue image. The defects remain observable with "Blue Only" turned on.

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post #757 of 1899 Old 01-18-2012, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

Thanks, Jan J. I've heard of those skin-smoothing image enhancements. However, the TV's defects I demonstrate in the videos go well beyond smoothing: they introduce white lines inside dark areas and grey splotches inside white areas - even solid black lines.

Blues are not soft. The video purposely shows how sharp facial details become when shifted to blues, greens, purples... anything even a little away from the range of peach colors & skins tones (reds and browns) where the defect occurs.

Thank Goodness for you avfreaks that notice every single detail. So far, everything I watch looks great and I have no complaints.

But feel free to figure things out and help us tweak out the best settings for our TV.

Mitsubishi WD-73640 3D DLP HDTV | Pioneer VSX-1121-K 7.2 A/V Receiver | BIC America Formula F-12 Sub | JBL Studio 190x2 , 180x2, 130x2 (Rear Surrounds), 120c Speakers | Intel DX58SO | I7 975 @ 3.3Ghz | Windows 8.1 64bit
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post #758 of 1899 Old 01-18-2012, 11:18 AM
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I received the WD-73C11 yesterday from Dell ($929) and it has the same top edge of screen gap. But I am very happy with the TV. It came with the latest firmware.

My old E-Dimensional wireless glasses and IR emitter from years ago work just fine. I tested with 3d youtube and some downloaded SBS videos. Also, the 2D-3D conversion is not bad, just wish it worked for OTA also. I will be ordering some DLP Link glasses since the IR emitter does seem to screw up any remote from working correctly when 3D is turned on.

The Digital OTA tuner seems stronger than my 50" Panasonic G15.
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post #759 of 1899 Old 01-18-2012, 01:39 PM
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Going from a 2005 era 62725 to this 73C11, will it be a night and day difference in PQ and size, or am I looking to be disappointed?
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post #760 of 1899 Old 01-18-2012, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul85 View Post

Going from a 2005 era 62725 to this 73C11, will it be a night and day difference in PQ and size, or am I looking to be disappointed?

You will not be disappointed, especially if your 725 is not a 1080p unit. I went from a 62628 (first 1080p unit) to the 73640 and am very pleased.
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post #761 of 1899 Old 01-18-2012, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 69mach1-377 View Post

You will not be disappointed, especially if your 725 is not a 1080p unit. I went from a 62628 (first 1080p unit) to the 73640 and am very pleased.

I went from a 3 year old WD-65736 to the WD-73640, and I cringe when I look at my old set.

The new 1 is a big improvement I think in PQ.

1 Mitsubishi WD-82642 82" TV
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post #762 of 1899 Old 01-18-2012, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul85 View Post

Going from a 2005 era 62725 to this 73C11, will it be a night and day difference in PQ and size, or am I looking to be disappointed?

I just got mine today and am not as impressed as everyone else. My JVC 61FN97 has much better PQ. That's a lcos display from 2007.

There seems to be some kind of chroma noise, or undefeatable sharpening feature that just makes everything seem... off.

I also see major rainbow effect... maybe the chroma type noise has something to do with that. I thought RE was a thing of the past?

Anyway... if anyone has any advise to maybe aleve these problems, please let me know.
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post #763 of 1899 Old 01-18-2012, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

http://www.showmeamemory.com/Other/Bad-Stuff/Mistubishi-WD-73640-Face/21060333_FDk7tz

I have finally posted videos demonstrating the input processing defect of my 2011 73" DLP Rear Projection HDTV, the Mitsubishi WD-73640.

The defect is about the TV's mishandling of reds, browns, and skin tones in such a way that detail in these kinds of colors are blurred. Facial features and hair are blurred. The mishandling causes other artifacts, such as spots in nostrils, corners of eyes and mouths, and lines between teeth and lips.

Separately, and less concerning to me, bright greens and yellows cause halos and bright twinkly white dots that are not in the source image.

In the first video you'll see at the link below, I'm filming a center area of the TV's screen, on which is displayed the image above, an image I created from several small images that exhibit the defect. You can download this image from that same gallery, and run the tests for yourself. You MUST turn your sharpening down to zero (0) on your TV to see what I am seeing. Sharpening effectively groups pixels together, so that there is no longer the fine detail for which the defect occurs.

In the second view, I show what the same image and test should look like, IOW, what it looks like on a high quality LCD. Don't miss that one: it's one you can use to test your own TV.

To demonstrate that the defect is related to color, I vary the color of the image sent to the TV by using my PC's video card controls: the hue control, which rotates all the color around, and the digital vibrance control, which shifts the colors to more saturated ones, or to less saturated ones, even black and white.

This video is best viewed in it's maximum size, 1920x1080p, or "Full HD", a size you can select from the top after you click the Play button. Then you can make the video go full screen. Smugmug, my host, rocks.

This video is not meant to be viewed on the WD-73640, but on another display so that the defects can be seen better. There is no sound in the video; instead, I direct your attention with the mouse cursor.

This was filmed with a Canon 60D D-SLR, in 1080p, at 30 frames per second. I welcome question and comments: use the comment feature in the gallery, or post here.

Link into my personal family photography site, a Smugmug site:

http://www.showmeamemory.com/Other/B...1060333_FDk7tz

are you working with a PC as your source input device. One with an Nivida card? Try working with a decent blu-ray player. Can your camera creat AVCHD? I have spent a lot of time messing with a PC unless you calibrate specifically for the PC you are wasting your time. Color gamut problems are the name of the game.

Just another blank signature.
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post #764 of 1899 Old 01-18-2012, 08:58 PM
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yadfgp, do you see any problems with fine white text on red/brown/peach backgrounds? On the Any artifacts with red text on white background or red and white symbols? Have you looked at my video to know what to look for?

So much praise for the PQ, and so few reporting that they actually tested it for the defects I reported on.

So far, 4 out of 4 who tested for it in this thread, have found the defect.

It's not about the rare white text on red background, it's about this indicating a serious color handling defect that is blurring all facial features without you realizing it. I investigated this defect at length and discovered it actually affects every skin tone in an image, blurring facial features including eyelashes, eyebrows, eye wrinkles, beard stubble, and brown hair detail - things you wouldn't notice unless you knew that the source is actually a lot more detailed than what you are being shown! (!!!) In addition -and only in addition - it introduces, frequently, but not always - it depends entirely on the content - in *introduces* whites, grays, and blacks in the form of splotches and sharp dots, blurry lines and sharp lines - in corners of mouths, in between teeth, in eyeglass frames, jewelry, ears.

You may not have noticed these splotches. It's your brain trying to forgive all other defects in the overcompressed TV material.

And you will certainly not notice the blurring / loss of detail in red tones and skin tones. That is, unless you know the Blu-Ray movie VERY well, or your photography well, or run the major color shift tests I did. I was running those to illustrate the splotches - and suddenly - I noticed that faces go from sharp to blurry, Robert De Niro's sharp eyes, wrinkles and eyebrows, turning to a much less *true* blurred eye socket. Taylor Swifts fave turning to a garbled mess. And block dots appearing inside the white polka dots of her red and white polka dot dress.

My videos praise DLP: they show what the source can and should look like on this exact TV: it is this: it is what the source looks like when shifted to green tones, or blue tones. This is the test. Watch it. (Note: this source color shift is not at all the same as "Blue Only" in the service menu)

Is everyone running with Sharpening set to 31 or higher?? If you are, no wonder you think the set performs fine! No idea what a good 1920x1080 picture looks like on this set. Instead you only know - oh divide that by 2 if not 3 - what a super high quality 640x360, smoothly scaled up to 1920x1080 looks like. This is what I mean when I say our sets sharpening lowers effective resolution: At level 31 or more, it's as if your TV was a 640x360 tv.

I have tried sharpening on my test image posted above: while it begins to remove some of the artifacts introduced by the defect, it does not restore but 1/3 of the detail in those guys faces and those girls eyes.

And, in the case of De Niro, his face AND eyes.

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post #765 of 1899 Old 01-18-2012, 09:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

are you working with a PC as your source input device. One with an Nivida card? Try working with a decent blu-ray player. Can your camera creat AVCHD? I have spent a lot of time messing with a PC unless you calibrate specifically for the PC you are wasting your time. Color gamut problems are the name of the game.

Totally unrelated. You have clearly not even watched the videos.

'Nuff punting and spend 10 minutes to watch the video I spent 20 hours setting up and shooting. No, there is no sound. Wait 20 seconds and the show picks up quickly.

Or pop the image I handed you into your own Blu-Ray player and see the sharp faces turn to crap for yourself.

Geesh. I'm sick of the half-hearted attempts to squelch this.

I have updated my video post you quoted to explain better:

Quote:
This happens on all inputs, all 3 HDMI, named PC or not, and also on the Component Inputs.

The defect is about the TV's serious mishandling of light reds, browns, and skin tones BUT NOT IN TERMS OF COLOR ACCURACY / COLOR CALIBRATION, but rather in terms of these colors changing when in proximity to certain other colors or in certain patterns, causing bleeding, bleeding of introduced whites, greys and blacks into them and surrounding pixels, and as if "jumbling pixels together" with end result SERIOUS BLURRING, in such a way that detail in Facial features and hair are BLURRED. Not off color, blurred. The mishandling causes other artifacts beyond blurring, including right white spots inside the black hole of nostrils, inside corners of eyes and mouths, and white/gray lines between teeth and lips.

(PS - a little off topic, but: I have expert level knowledge of Color gamuts and Color Profiles on Windows. I'm a photog/graphic artist by night.)

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post #766 of 1899 Old 01-18-2012, 09:53 PM
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jKeener71, you use your PC with this TV. In fact, I helped you with your overscan issue. Would you mind viewing the image I posted on both your monitor, then your TV, and comparing the areas I point out in the video?

Easy areas to check are: the striped pajamas getting a bunch of black lines in them, and Taylor Swifts's face getting blurred a lot.

Then, for a real trip, play the SECOND video (in that gallery I linked to) ON YOUR TV. Playing the 2nd video on your TV, you will see the defects dissapear and reappear as the scene changes colors.

Thanks!

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post #767 of 1899 Old 01-18-2012, 10:05 PM
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If you have a PC connected to your TV, you owe it to yourself to watch this video on your WD-73640.

None of the serious defects you are about to see are in the video. They are caused by your TV. For proof, play it on a good LCD monitor (or CRT).

There is no sound in this video. Instead I direct your attention with the mouse. Please be patient. It's slow to start but picks up quickly! You will not believe your eyes.

It's 1080p, best played at largest size (Full HD), but smaller sizes exhibit defects too, just different ones.

The link below may point to the wrong video for testing the issue on your own TV. So to be clear: In my gallery:

- Video #2, which I was trying to link to, is the one made for playback on your TV, not video #1. When played on your computer's screen, this video #2 shows no such defects while colors are rotated, proving its not in the source.

- Video #1 in my gallery, is for watching the phenomenon occur on MY TV, and is to be viewed on your laptop/computer screen only.

http://www.showmeamemory.com/gallery...5524&k=Lxj4kGg


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post #768 of 1899 Old 01-19-2012, 07:34 PM
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So I must ask you... Have you brought this to the attention of Mitsubishi?

What do they say?

Now I will say this..... Mitsubishi was much more open to me about the couple bugs I found in the 62525 compared to my request for a simple explanation of firmware versions in 73640.....

I haven't displayed this on the Mitsubishi, as I'd have to go through the Dell Laptop display (Intel) and through a Aluratek VGA (1080) to HDMI (Via DVI) @1080 format converter, before being displayed on the Mits...(While I look at a 1600x900 display on the laptop. Apples to Oranges: This, to me is too many trans-codes to be a smoking gun.... Too many cross conversions to be trusted.

I'm not saying it's not happening (Watch Diane Sawyer's newscast)... but I can't prove it's not being done in the camera...
I have set up camera's at work where this was intentionally done to make wrinkles less evident.

Now with that said, I feel there is a motion overload that occurs on 720P at times.... where the set degrades to DCT Blocks at luminance transitions, but the set 'recovers' in about a second. As much as I feel it's in the Mits, I can't prove it... Which your test may do.... and so you'd have a better chance to prove it than I would, and that's why I asked if you submitted this to Mits.....

????

Looking for a 1939 Indian Motocycle
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post #769 of 1899 Old 01-19-2012, 08:02 PM
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Here's a screen grab of a television camera user manual, showing how face detect is set up on a TV Camera....
LL

Looking for a 1939 Indian Motocycle
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post #770 of 1899 Old 01-19-2012, 08:36 PM
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I'm back home, tomorrow I'll set up some more tests, purely out of curiosity, I am absolutely happy with this tv. Nothing any where close to the price would make me happier in my situation. If there is a software problem and it can be fixed, great, if not I'm ok with how it looks now. I have it set up in the theater room where it is purely used for blu-ray and gaming.
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Thanks guys. I'm exhausted and currently on an iPad, so I'll get back to you tomorrow.

In the meantime, note that my last link above may point to the wrong video for testing the issue on your TV. To be clear: In my gallery, video #2, which I was trying to link to, is the one made for playback on you TV, not video #1.

VGA to hdmi from a laptop won't negate the concept/ the test: it's not about the tv getting a pure signal, it's about what the tv does with the signal it's given, doing fine with blue and green faces (yes human faces) but blurring and artifacting with skin tone colored faces - the very same faces, get it?

In fact, you can even watch this video #2 at any resolution on your TV, even scale a lower resolution up, showing what happens on SD content. but "Full HD" aka the 1080p it was shot at, scaled 1-to-1 by clicking the "view full screen" button of the video, will show the defects most flagrantly.

When played on your laptop's screen, this video #2 shows no such defects while colors are rotated, proving its not in the source.

Video #1 in my gallery, is for watching the phenomenon occur on my TV, and is to be viewed on your laptop/PC screen only.

More questions answered tomorrow.

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2011 Mits DLP owners: upgrade firmware to 13.06 to fix picture quality. More here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21726833
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I ran into a few 'real world' examples of the problem that Thhowl is bringing up.

On the cable channel ESPN News (HD)... there is a logo on the bottom right of the screen, reading (you guessed it) "ESPN NEWS". I see a white line in the middle of the horizontal line in the logo. It only goes away if I turn sharpening up to 38 or so.

Also, on the PS3... the Netflix logo in the app section shows a very similar problem with the red/white issue... and when the PSN area was scrolling content, there was a thumbnail pic for "Money Ball"... Bratt Pitt's nose displayed that odd problem that I saw in Howl's video.

Lastly, no matter how low I turn my sharpening down (aka 0)... I still notice edge enhancement type issues all over the image.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP32 View Post

I ran into a few 'real world' examples of the problem that Thhowl is bringing up.

On the cable channel ESPN News (HD)... there is a logo on the bottom right of the screen, reading (you guessed it) "ESPN NEWS". I see a white line in the middle of the horizontal line in the logo. It only goes away if I turn sharpening up to 38 or so.

Also, on the PS3... the Netflix logo in the app section shows a very similar problem with the red/white issue... and when the PSN area was scrolling content, there was a thumbnail pic for "Money Ball"... Bratt Pitt's nose displayed that odd problem that I saw in Howl's video.

Lastly, no matter how low I turn my sharpening down (aka 0)... I still notice edge enhancement type issues all over the image.

1>Get the latest firmware update. Then do your RBE test at 9' away. I found all kinds of errors on my Bravia xbr-4 and 54VT25 with my head 4 inches away from the screen.
2>You don't have 200-300 hrs on the bulb yet. There is a difference.
3>There are hidden settings in the service menu. EVerything from Geometry correction to edge enhancement. This thread has the service code.

4>Why is every getting so technical over a $699-1200 TV. Mines calibrated, looks great and no I will not be running test pattern to look for errors on a $700 TV. Step back and look at what you are doing. Its a big cheap TV. Not a 70" Sharp Elite. (Which is what I would expect THESE TESTS would be for.) Remember, this is the ENTRY level for this year's DLP. JUST ENJOY THE CHEAP BIG SCREEN, if not, blow $5k on the ELITE.

Cool Beans.
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DRaven72, your points 1-3 do not help, and show you have not read the details in my description of the defect.

As for point 4:

The defects are not nit picky, 4-Inch away image flaws. I sit at 8-9 feet away too, and see them from there.

The tests are not nit picky, lets-push-this-tv-to-the-limits academic tests, they are simple rotations around the color wheel, changing a man's face (De Niro) to green, blue, purple, and back to flesh color. His face is sharp when green, blue, or purple, but blurred when normal skin tone color.

Now tell me that's to be expected for a $700-$1200 TV.

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2011 Mits DLP owners: upgrade firmware to 13.06 to fix picture quality. More here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21726833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRaven72 View Post

1>Get the latest firmware update. Then do your RBE test at 9' away. I found all kinds of errors on my Bravia xbr-4 and 54VT25 with my head 4 inches away from the screen.
2>You don't have 200-300 hrs on the bulb yet. There is a difference.
3>There are hidden settings in the service menu. EVerything from Geometry correction to edge enhancement. This thread has the service code.

4>Why is every getting so technical over a $699-1200 TV. Mines calibrated, looks great and no I will not be running test pattern to look for errors on a $700 TV. Step back and look at what you are doing. Its a big cheap TV. Not a 70" Sharp Elite. (Which is what I would expect THESE TESTS would be for.) Remember, this is the ENTRY level for this year's DLP. JUST ENJOY THE CHEAP BIG SCREEN, if not, blow $5k on the ELITE.

I actually rearranged my 'tv room' just so I could sit further back after watching a couple shows on it. I'm now roughly 10 ft from the screen.

I understand that it's an entry level set... but like you said, it's an entry level set FROM 2011. I thought that by now, many of these problems would be taken care of. My 2007 mid/entry level set shouldn't be able to blow it away, PQ wise.

My firmware is 13.05... pretty sure that's the most current, based on this thread. I have been meaning to look up those service menu codes... was hoping it wouldn't come to that. I hate fiddling around in there.
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post #776 of 1899 Old 01-20-2012, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

DRaven72, your points 1-3 do not help, and show you have not read the details in my description of the defect.

As for point 4:

The defects are not nit picky, 4-Inch away image flaws. I sit at 8-9 feet away too, and see them from there.

The tests are not nit picky, lets-push-this-tv-to-the-limits academic tests, they are simple rotations around the color wheel, changing a man's face (De Niro) to green, blue, purple, and back to flesh color. His face is sharp when green, blue, or purple, but blurred when normal skin tone color.

Now tell me that's to be expected for a $700-$1200 TV.

There have been issues with Mits color decoders for a long time. Most or at least the worst have been largely resolved. What this thing is you are seeing I haven't a clue. I follow what you are saying and it may very well be a decoder issue, it could be a working as designed "feature". Whle I applaud your efforts to raise awareness of what has sometimes been referred to as clay face on other devices, I suggest you aim your efforts to Mitsubishi. If it can be fixed in firmware perhaps they will. If it is hard coded into their processor than maybe not.

I am using a much more expensive display than the 73640, a 92840 and color and gama are much more important to me than a slsigh loss of detail in a fleshtones. I would ask you what steps you have taken to get grayscale, gamma and gamut right? These sets have difficulty with linearity and clip color easily. Color clipping inidcates a color is running out on the set, but I have found that is not really the case. Mits in there infinite wisdom does some tricky things and I have to do some tricky things in my video processor to keep the colors from clipping and maintain high brighness. The built in gama curves are weird which is not unusual. Mits clearly juices the color in spots on purpose. So they could very well be playing with those fleshy colors either in the color decoder

Also strange things happen if you are running with Geometry Correction on. 1:1 pixel matching goes away and depending on how much correction was applied a test pattern will show amazing amounts of moire.

If you are calibrating this set without an external processor in advanced mode you need to find the max brighness that does not clip. I don't just mean white clipping but the color as well. On the larger set Green will clip and this is usually not fixable on the presets at least by turning down contrast alone. Depending on the contrast level you are seeing color luminance fall off on green even before max white at 235.

I have not worked with one of the smaller sets, only the 82s and 92s. These issues maybe less pronounced on the small sets. Since you are so keen about color I am surprised you have not noticed these other concerns prior to the focus on detail in fleshtones.

Just another blank signature.
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post #777 of 1899 Old 01-20-2012, 10:47 AM
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I really wish the pissing contests would end and people would just try to figure out what the problems ARE and HOW TO FIX THEM.

On that note, can somebody take pity on this poor soul and repost some service menu info?

Specifically, I need to know how to turn off edge enhancement and to toggle on/off the auto geometry correction. I've done about 5 searches in this thread, and I've gotten into the Service Menu, hit 0 for the Geometry area and Video for some other options. Also noticed that the 'channel' buttons on the remote scroll thru different test patterns.

In Geometry, is "Manual Geometry Correction" what I'm looking for? I was too scared to hit it, don't want to mess the TV up more then it already is. I don't want to get into actually correcting the geometry myself, I've played that game in my old tvs' convergence, and it aint fun. I just want to see if the picture is acceptable with Auto-Geometry correction off.

FYI --- I realize Edge Enhancement is easily toggled in the ADV picture settings in the normal menus... but for some reason, the ADV settings create a very Green tinted picture (as well as 'color temp LOW' on the other settings). I'd rather avoid fiddling around with color balance in the ADV picture settings if I can just switch of EE completely on the set.
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Following these notes from the 2009 model:

Quote:


Manual Geometry Alignment
1. Activate the Service Mode
<2-4-5-7>. From the Service Menu, press the <0> button. The Data
Transfer & Geometry Menu will appear.
2. Use the <> buttons to select “MANUAL GEOMETRY ALIGNMENT” and press .
The Manual Keystone Geometry Alignment Pattern will appear. See below.
Note: To remove all geometry correction, while the Geometry Alignment Pattern is displayed, press <1> then
. This will null all correction data. Then re-enter the Manual Geometry Alignment mode by repeating
step 2.
Note: To restore the original factory correction data, select “RESTORE GEOMETRY DATA FROM BACKUP” and
press .

But when I hit <1> then as the notes suggest... nothing seems to happen to the manual adjustment grid. I'm not so sure what I'm doing is removing auto-geometry correction.
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Now here is a real issue that we experienced last night. Out of the blue, the TV turned off and the green light flashed rapidly for about a minute while being completely unresponsive. After the flashing stopped, I powered it on and still no apparent response. Just when I threatened to unplug it with hopes of a forced reset, it came back on as if nothing had ever happened.

Anyone else experience this yet?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 69mach1-377 View Post

Now here is a real issue that we experienced last night. Out of the blue, the TV turned off and the green light flashed rapidly for about a minute while being completely unresponsive. After the flashing stopped, I powered it on and still no apparent response. Just when I threatened to unplug it with hopes of a forced reset, it came back on as if nothing had ever happened.

Anyone else experience this yet?

Sounds like it over-heated. Got enough ventilation around the TV?
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