2011 Mitsubishi DLP WD-73640 official thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 1899 Old 01-27-2012, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Empirical View Post

That would be swell. I opted for a Monday service call because I have better things to do on Saturday. I will certainly share my results as well.

LOL. You sure are an odd fellow.
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post #992 of 1899 Old 01-27-2012, 05:38 PM
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My WD-82837 a 2009 year model 82" does not exhibit the bug. The ESPN logo looks perfect. As I already have reported my WD-92840 behave like all the others and yes upon close inspection the CNN logo does it as well.

Just guessing but this is probably having a pretty large impact on image quality in general. Sadly once the eye sees the bug, you can see it all over the screen.

Just another blank signature.
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post #993 of 1899 Old 01-27-2012, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

My WD-82837 a 2009 year model 82" does not exhibit the bug. The ESPN logo looks perfect. As I already have reported my WD-92840 behave like all the others and yes upon close inspection the CNN logo does it as well.

Just guessing but this is probably having a pretty large impact on image quality in general. Sadly once the eye sees the bug, you can see it all over the screen.

Exactly. Well said. Thanks for checking your other model, perfect to show that this is not an inherent defect in DLP.

Much appreciated, GTGray.
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post #994 of 1899 Old 01-27-2012, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

this is probably having a pretty large impact on image quality in general. Sadly once the eye sees the bug, you can see it all over the screen.

Thanks for the report. Yes, that is exactly my feeling, that it impacts image quality more than one realizes, as we tend to believe the soft facial features to be in the source, when they are not. And this is why I am so bothered by it. The occasional blurred white text doesn't upset me as much as the loss of detail in faces, red garments, even some hues of purple garments. Daily seeing the defect in teeth and lips bothers me the most!

We will be showing this to service techs soon!

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2011 Mits DLP owners: upgrade firmware to 13.06 to fix picture quality. More here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21726833
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post #995 of 1899 Old 01-27-2012, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

Thanks for the report. Yes, that is exactly my feeling, that it impacts image quality more than one realizes, believing the soft facial features to be in the source, when that are not. And this is why I am so bothered by it. The occasional blurred white text doesn't upset me as much as the loss of detail in faces, red garments, even some hues of purple garments. Daily seeing the defect in teeth and lips bothers me the most!

We will be showing this to service techs soon!

Howl have you set up a service call?
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post #996 of 1899 Old 01-27-2012, 06:49 PM
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I know I'm getting into this buzz-saw late, but I have to say the red ESPN logo seems to show what look to me like compression artifacts. I don't recall what the source of the material is -- DirecTV, or which cable system. It may be a better test to find some Blu-ray that exhibits the flaw as those generally have lower compression rates.

I know that cable and satellite systems compress the snot out of their signals for transmission. You'd think a pay channel like ESPN would get better rates than other stuff, but you never know. ESPN isn't available on broadcast, so we can't test the logo on full ATSC bitrates.

-- Joe B.

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post #997 of 1899 Old 01-27-2012, 06:54 PM
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Yeah, you're late --- I've already posted many pics of the same issue on BD movies. Only a few pages back.

The ESPN logo issue isn't a problem on any other set in my house. Others have reported it when their source was satellite as well as HD-Cable. It's not compression.
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post #998 of 1899 Old 01-27-2012, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by joebarnhart View Post

I know I'm getting into this buzz-saw late, but I have to say the red ESPN logo seems to show what look to me like compression artifacts. I don't recall what the source of the material is -- DirecTV, or which cable system. It may be a better test to find some Blu-ray that exhibits the flaw as those generally have lower compression rates.

I know that cable and satellite systems compress the snot out of their signals for transmission. You'd think a pay channel like ESPN would get better rates than other stuff, but you never know. ESPN isn't available on broadcast, so we can't test the logo on full ATSC bitrates.

-- Joe B.

Not a Mitsu owner yet, but soon could be with the prices I'm seeing at Fry's!

I have already determined that with the same source it shows on the WD-92840 and not the 2009 WD-82837.

What I would like to find is a reliable report of a 2011 example that does not replicate the issue. If some examples do it and some don't then it can be isolated to a hardware component like a main board or a light engine.

Harkening back to my days as a Product Service Manager at HP.. we were continually having to purge spare parts stocks of products with issues. If only this was a simple as a main board swap. If it is a light engine issue and the problem is wide spread we could see extensive backorders.

I hope Mits already knows what this problem is and have duplicated it in the lab.

Just another blank signature.
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post #999 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I have already determined that with the same source it shows on the WD-92840 and not the 2009 WD-82837.

What I would like to find is a reliable report of a 2011 example that does not replicate the issue. If some examples do it and some don't then it can be isolated to a hardware component like a main board or a light engine.

Harkening back to my days as a Product Service Manager at HP.. we were continually having to purge spare parts stocks of products with issues. If only this was a simple as a main board swap. If it is a light engine issue and the problem is wide spread we could see extensive backorders.

I hope Mits already knows what this problem is and have duplicated it in the lab.

Gary,

I am not sure just how reliable a report you are looking for, but I have already assured you that my 2011 92840, so far at least (knock wood), does not exhibit this issue. I have over 500 hours on the bulb now and also had a professional calibration done this week by Jeff Meier of AccuCal, who I believe to be one of the top calibrators in the country. I have a spectacular, near reference picture, and I assure you that during the hours that we spent together viewing a variety of programming, we would have spotted that bug if it were there. And that was in addition to the time I spent looking specifically for the ESPN logo problem you reported. I was very diligent and very relieved when I didn't find it. As you mentioned in an earlier post, AV components, computers, smart phones, etc. vary just as individual cars of a particular model do.

I was very sorry to hear that your TV is exhibiting the same bug as some of the others--sorry on a personal basis, as that is the second TV where you seem to have been unlucky, and sorry because I was hoping that the reported problem would be limited to a particular model. Hopefully, the bug in your set is not quite as extreme as in some others, but I know you won't be happy until you fix it. I believe that there are a lot of astute and experienced AV owners on these Mits threads. And this problem has been sufficiently reported and documented to have a lot of people looking harder at their sets, just as you did. If the problem were even close to universal, I believe that we would long since have heard about it, on every thread. Look at how many people post even the slightest aberration to see if what they are experiencing is normal. It just seems to be the luck of the draw. I would love for it to be a firmware bug or something else easily fixable, but I don't know. Looking at the extreme extent of the problem on the sets of several posters, compared to yours, for instance, I think something is seriously out of whack in some of these sets.

Mike
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post #1000 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I have already determined that with the same source it shows on the WD-92840 and not the 2009 WD-82837.

What I would like to find is a reliable report of a 2011 example that does not replicate the issue. If some examples do it and some don't then it can be isolated to a hardware component like a main board or a light engine.


I hope Mits already knows what this problem is and have duplicated it in the lab.

Agreed
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post #1001 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 09:18 AM
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I'm considering picking on of these guys up for my new house. I'm debating between this and a 55" LCD. Viewing distance will be 10'-12' depending on final furniture position. My main concern is whether this will be to big. Here's the basic furniture arrangement we are looking at right now. The scale is for a 55" LCD. The love seat will be rarely used. Blocks are one foot and the picture is to correct scale.

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post #1002 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 09:45 AM
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Tech guy came today. He's ordering a 'main board'. I assume it'll have the same problem.

I'm not convinced he understood the problem. But whatever... I'll play along and see if this fixes the problem, and if not, I'll go from there.
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post #1003 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post

Gary,

I am not sure just how reliable a report you are looking for, but I have already assured you that my 2011 92840, so far at least (knock wood), does not exhibit this issue. I have over 500 hours on the bulb now and also had a professional calibration done this week by Jeff Meier of AccuCal, who I believe to be one of the top calibrators in the country. I have a spectacular, near reference picture, and I assure you that during the hours that we spent together viewing a variety of programming, we would have spotted that bug if it were there. And that was in addition to the time I spent looking specifically for the ESPN logo problem you reported. I was very diligent and very relieved when I didn't find it. As you mentioned in an earlier post, AV components, computers, smart phones, etc. vary just as individual cars of a particular model do.

I was very sorry to hear that your TV is exhibiting the same bug as some of the others--sorry on a personal basis, as that is the second TV where you seem to have been unlucky, and sorry because I was hoping that the reported problem would be limited to a particular model. Hopefully, the bug in your set is not quite as extreme as in some others, but I know you won't be happy until you fix it. I believe that there are a lot of astute and experienced AV owners on these Mits threads. And this problem has been sufficiently reported and documented to have a lot of people looking harder at their sets, just as you did. If the problem were even close to universal, I believe that we would long since have heard about it, on every thread. Look at how many people post even the slightest aberration to see if what they are experiencing is normal. It just seems to be the luck of the draw. I would love for it to be a firmware bug or something else easily fixable, but I don't know. Looking at the extreme extent of the problem on the sets of several posters, compared to yours, for instance, I think something is seriously out of whack in some of these sets.

Mike

I am not questioning you... in any way. I did not even look for the bug, until the pictures of the ESPN logo were posted. Jeff Meir doesn't have anything to do with it. When it comes to Jeff well YMMV. He is certainly highly skilled and knowledgeable and I had a set calibrated by him and I have no complaints with the work he performed. He is more than competent but can suffer from expert's disease sometimes. He has more to do with why I learned to calbrate than anythng elsee. So while I would say to anyone who needs a calibrator he does first class work. I would however take his purchase advice and add a few grains of salt to it. Like any human he brings his biases to the table.

Jeff told me at one point I was making a huge mistake buying a Mitsubishi and that the DUO plus Meter was also a mistake. Nothing has been more wrong than his advice on the DUO/ChromaPuer and meter. The first Mits despite all my struggles with it, was much loved and it was the only big set an average human could afford to own and operate.

I know this has gone way off topic. But there is tendency to denial the picture on these sets is largely judge by brightness, contrast and color accuracy. If all those are good people just don't want to delve any deeper. I applaud those in this thread who kind of rubbed it in our faces until we paid attention.

I am highly skeptical of anything that comes out a PC in terms of video quality. So I held back from messing around. Once the issues was demonstrated in such a clear cut fashion without a PC involved, I looked for it and it was obvious.

I am glad you are not seeing it and I did not mean to suggest you were in denial. Just like duplicating the problem, I would like to see multiple confident reports of not having it. Everything has bugs, just because a Jeff Meir as good as he is calibrated your TV does not mean he would have seen this. He does have keen eyes, but the 92840 calibrates well and its overal presentation blows away the early sets, so unless you happened to be looking for it, you would not necessarily see it. Once you have seen it, it is very obvious.

Just another blank signature.
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post #1004 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boomhower View Post

I'm considering picking on of these guys up for my new house. I'm debating between this and a 55" LCD. Viewing distance will be 10'-12' depending on final furniture position. My main concern is whether this will be to big. Here's the basic furniture arrangement we are looking at right now. The scale is for a 55" LCD. The love seat will be rarely used. Blocks are one foot and the picture is to correct scale.

I sit about 11' from a 73" Mitsubishi now... I am in the process of deciding whether to get an 82" or 92" one in the near future.

So... 73" isn't too big.

Brett

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post #1005 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 10:07 AM
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boomhower, the 73" mits is 5.5 feet wide, the size of the TV in your diagram. It wouldn't be too big. If anything, for movie theater experience, you'll need to scoot the couch up.

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2011 Mits DLP owners: upgrade firmware to 13.06 to fix picture quality. More here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21726833
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post #1006 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 10:15 AM
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FWIW, you can use this calculator to show you what viewing angle a given TV gives you from a given seating distance.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/v...alculator.html

Just fill in the first 3 options and click Calculate.

Then it'll show you the viewing angle, and below that it'll show you various recommended viewing angles, how much closer you'd have to sit in order to reach the THX ideal of 36 degrees, etc.

Brett

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post #1007 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 10:23 AM
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There is incorrect information in that popular javascript online calculator, copied everywhere.

The calculator states "Maximum THX viewing distance (26 degree viewing angle)" for what is actually the maximum distance the last row of a theater can be at to be marginally considered THX certified.

The next number in the calculator, "Recommended THX viewing distance (36 degree viewing angle)" is actually the recommended distance for the very last row of a theater - and hardly the recommended viewing distance, which is obviously somewhere in the middle of the theater.

THX effectively has two maximum distance recommendations: "really recommended as the max" and "ok, you can go this far back too and we'll still call you THX".

The point is, the numbers this calculator gives you is not the recommended distance for your TV. If you like a middle-section theater experience, you will have to sit closer than what that calculator tells you.

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2011 Mits DLP owners: upgrade firmware to 13.06 to fix picture quality. More here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21726833
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post #1008 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 10:26 AM
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Another update from my tv....
Purely accidental and not looking fir it....

I got some new speakers for my theater and decided to test them out before hauling em upstairs.
I turned on my ps3 and went to play music.
My background on this ps3 is set to red.
Needless to say, if I had never read these posts, i would have been beside my self trying to figure if my ps3 was dying!
It was so obvious!
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post #1009 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I am not questioning you... in any way. I did not even look for the bug, until the pictures of the ESPN logo were posted. Jeff Meir doesn't have anything to do with it. When it comes to Jeff well YMMV. He is certainly highly skilled and knowledgeable and I had a set calibrated by him and I have no complaints with the work he performed. He is more than competent but can suffer from expert's disease sometimes. He has more to do with why I learned to calbrate than anythng elsee. So while I would say to anyone who needs a calibrator he does first class work. I would however take his purchase advice and add a few grains of salt to it. Like any human he brings his biases to the table.

Jeff told me at one point I was making a huge mistake buying a Mitsubishi and that the DUO plus Meter was also a mistake. Nothing has been more wrong than his advice on the DUO/ChromaPuer and meter. The first Mits despite all my struggles with it, was much loved and it was the only big set an average human could afford to own and operate.

I know this has gone way off topic. But there is tendency to denial the picture on these sets is largely judge by brightness, contrast and color accuracy. If all those are good people just don't want to delve any deeper. I applaud those in this thread who kind of rubbed it in our faces until we paid attention.

I am highly skeptical of anything that comes out a PC in terms of video quality. So I held back from messing around. Once the issues was demonstrated in such a clear cut fashion without a PC involved, I looked for it and it was obvious.

I am glad you are not seeing it and I did not mean to suggest you were in denial. Just like duplicating the problem, I would like to see multiple confident reports of not having it. Everything has bugs, just because a Jeff Meir as good as he is calibrated your TV does not mean he would have seen this. He does have keen eyes, but the 92840 calibrates well and its overal presentation blows away the early sets, so unless you happened to be looking for it, you would not necessarily see it. Once you have seen it, it is very obvious.

Small world! Yeah, he doesn't like Duo's ( and their ancillary color meters) much. He has some very high-end and expensive equipment that he uses, so I would expect a vested interest on that issue. He did do a hell of a calibration job, though, and we had two pairs of experienced eyes looking very hard at my set for a considerable period of time. That should be a pretty reliable report by any estimation. I hope you do get additional reports. I still think that the absence of reports is a good thing, though. There are lots of smart and observant people on this forum. If this problem becomes widespread, we will hear a lot about it on multiple threads. People report geometry issues, powering-off issues, fan noise, anything remotely noticeable. Denial may be a factor for a few, but if many of these sets exhibit this problem, others will report this too, just as you have. The 82", 92", and the 75A94 Laservue, particularly, are just too expensive for people to be willing to accept significant compromises in quality. And as I, and others on this thread have stated, we shouldn't have to accept that big a flaw on any model regardless of price.
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post #1010 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

There is incorrect information in that popular javascript online calculator, copied everywhere.

The calculator states "Maximum THX viewing distance (26 degree viewing angle)" for what is actually the maximum distance the last row of a theater can be at to be marginally considered THX certified.

The next number in the calculator, "Recommended THX viewing distance (36 degree viewing angle)" is actually the recommended distance for the very last row of a theater - and hardly the recommended viewing distance, which is obviously somewhere in the middle of the theater.

THX effectively has two maximum distance recommendations: "really recommended as the max" and "ok, you can go this far back too and we'll still call you THX".

The point is, the numbers this calculator gives you is not the recommended distance for your TV. If you like a middle-section theater experience, you will have to sit closer than what that calculator tells you.

Good advice! The recommended THX standard (as opposed to maximum) that I believe is most relevant is expressed as diagonal/.84 or diagonal x 1.2. The difference is about .5" on a 92" screen. For my 92" display, that THX ratio would yield a distance of approximately 9' 2'', but I am currently at 8' 8''. You just have to experiment to see what you like, but the 26 and 36 degree concepts (or even the 40.04 cited above) are just based on averages of peripheral vision. YMMV.
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post #1011 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

There is incorrect information in that popular javascript online calculator, copied everywhere.

The calculator states "Maximum THX viewing distance (26 degree viewing angle)" for what is actually the maximum distance the last row of a theater can be at to be marginally considered THX certified.

The next number in the calculator, "Recommended THX viewing distance (36 degree viewing angle)" is actually the recommended distance for the very last row of a theater - and hardly the recommended viewing distance, which is obviously somewhere in the middle of the theater.

THX effectively has two maximum distance recommendations: "really recommended as the max" and "ok, you can go this far back too and we'll still call you THX".

The point is, the numbers this calculator gives you is not the recommended distance for your TV. If you like a middle-section theater experience, you will have to sit closer than what that calculator tells you.

Ah.... Gotcha. So there really isn't an ideal THX viewing angle then?

Brett

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post #1012 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 01:56 PM
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There is an ideal THX viewing angle, 40 degrees, and to calculate that distance, it's as mthomas47 said: diagonal screen size x 1.2

THX.com's page on home theater setup

Best coverage of the topic I've ever seen is on Wikipedia:

Excellent Wikipedia Article on Optimum HDTV viewing distance

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2011 Mits DLP owners: upgrade firmware to 13.06 to fix picture quality. More here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21726833
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post #1013 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 01:58 PM
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My couch is THX certified.
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post #1014 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 06:18 PM
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Went to the store and while they didn't have any DLP's I used a 70" LCD as a reference and it's the right choice by far. If price wasn't an issue I'd go for the 82".
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post #1015 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boomhower View Post

Went to the store and while they didn't have any DLP's I used a 70" LCD as a reference and it's the right choice by far. If price wasn't an issue I'd go for the 82".

I replaced a 60" with the 73" and it makes a really significant difference in terms of "movie experience".Some films really provide the larger than life experience on it. I think you'll love it.
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post #1016 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boomhower View Post

I'm considering picking on of these guys up for my new house. I'm debating between this and a 55" LCD. Viewing distance will be 10'-12' depending on final furniture position. My main concern is whether this will be to big. Here's the basic furniture arrangement we are looking at right now. The scale is for a 55" LCD. The love seat will be rarely used. Blocks are one foot and the picture is to correct scale.


You should be fine although if you can get 12' that in my opinion would be preferable. I sit right at 14' away.
Not sure if your furniture is squared away but I would go as shallow, wide and high as reasonable.

Is that a fireplace? How deep is the mantle shelf if so?
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post #1017 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Empirical View Post

You should be fine although if you can get 12' that in my opinion would be preferable. I sit right at 14' away.
Not sure if your furniture is squared away but I would go as shallow, wide and high as reasonable.

Is that a fireplace? How deep is the mantle shelf if so?

That is a fireplace. The mantle about a foot wide but it is just a piece of wood. If your mean the hearth, it's pretty wide. Probably a foot and a half or so. 14' would be an issue, just move the couch back a bit. We don't intend to use the fireplace much at all. It's in the way more than anything else and makes setting the room up a royal pain in the rear.
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post #1018 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post

Small world! Yeah, he doesn't like Duo's ( and their ancillary color meters) much. He has some very high-end and expensive equipment that he uses, so I would expect a vested interest on that issue. He did do a hell of a calibration job, though, and we had two pairs of experienced eyes looking very hard at my set for a considerable period of time. That should be a pretty reliable report by any estimation. I hope you do get additional reports. I still think that the absence of reports is a good thing, though. There are lots of smart and observant people on this forum. If this problem becomes widespread, we will hear a lot about it on multiple threads. People report geometry issues, powering-off issues, fan noise, anything remotely noticeable. Denial may be a factor for a few, but if many of these sets exhibit this problem, others will report this too, just as you have. The 82", 92", and the 75A94 Laservue, particularly, are just too expensive for people to be willing to accept significant compromises in quality. And as I, and others on this thread have stated, we shouldn't have to accept that big a flaw on any model regardless of price.

Yeah, I am sure the idea of auto-calibration is anathema to some pro calibrators but it is the way of the future whether through an external box or through an interface directly into the TV itself

Just another blank signature.
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post #1019 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 08:44 PM
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Test Video Demonstrating Color Decoding Defect in Mitsubishi 2011 DLPs

I have made the ultimate test video for demonstrating the color decoding defect that plagues 2011 Mitsubishi DLP sets.
(or determining if you have it)

It is available as an ISO burnable to DVD, a 1080p AVCHD DVD, playable in a Blu-Ray player.
(Like this site's AVCHD version of the AVSHD 709, for those who have done that.)

THIS SHOWS SOME REALLY CRAZY ARTIFACTS! Much more than I've ever shown.
Even those who know they have the defect should watch this on their Mits.
It shows just how extremely crazy things can get with just the right content.
It'll also be helpful in explaining the defect to a service technician. You're welcome.

The 419MB AVCHD DVD ISO file is available here:

https://www.onlinefilefolder.com/3savmOPw6gdBGe

(that is the same as clicking on the image above)

Mirror here, but the 1st link should be the fastest: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1842312/2011...DLP%20Test.iso

(both will probably be very slow)

After downloading the ISO, Windows Vista/7 users can burn it to DVD by sompliy double-clicking it and following the wizard.

Everyone else, (well, except Mac users), I recommend freeware "ISO Recorder":

http://isorecorder.alexfeinman.com/isorecorder.htm


-------------------------------
Streaming Video for your PC
If you have a PC connected to your DLP, or are impatient with the download,
you can watch a more compressed version in my usual gallery:
(unless you play the 'Full HD' version, and your DLP is set to 1920x1080, you won't get the same effect - some defects, but nothing like the ISO )



Also in that gallery, after the video, are good stills to play as Slideshow.

|
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2011 Mits DLP owners: upgrade firmware to 13.06 to fix picture quality. More here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post21726833
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post #1020 of 1899 Old 01-28-2012, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

I've said it a couple of times before but not sure if anyone noticed or cared, as my posts keep getting buried amongst all the others. Just trying to help out.

My WD-73640 doesn't exhibit these defects anywhere near as bad as the pics and videos I've seen. The PQ on it blows away my WD-65736. As someone else had said, maybe some of you guys got a bad batch or something.

Mine is 1 of the ones I bought on the Turkey day sale at BB for $650.00

It's not something I couldn't live with but if It can be fixed I want to explore that. I also purchased from BB on Thanksgiving morning (online).
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