2011 Mitsubishi DLP WD-73640 official thread - Page 46 - AVS Forum
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post #1351 of 1890 Old 02-29-2012, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

Just because you don't agree with what I have to say, there's no reason to be rude. So I like my TV. Sorry that upsets you. I've been very polite with you and TTHOWL, as many others here have been. If you don't like the fact that we have defective free TV's, there's no reason to take that out on us personally. Take your anger out on the TV, not us please. Thank you.

A) The only reason why anybody is upset with you is that despite testing from a dozen or so users who verify the issue, you mention terms such as "sorry, you got a lemon". These users didn't register here to complain about the problem, they simple looked at one (or several) of the many examples shown here and said "oh ****, yeah I see it". Empirical and Howl have both been told by Mits that it's a "limitation of the technology". Empirical and Howl don't tend to get along, so I doubt a conspiracy is afoot.


B) Despite, what, 99% of the people here seeing the problem (even Draven, insulting as he is, sees it -- he only disagrees that its not a problem worth fighting to fix -- for some reason)... you deem it necessary to interrupt discussion with "Hey! I don't see it. Must not be a real problem". Not once have you put forth the effort to post a picture. You haven't even said what 'logos' you've looked at. You've been nothing but vague. Guess what type of people enjoy using vagities? Yep.

C) Relates to B. Why do you feel the need to continue to harass those looking for answers? There are MANY people here with the same issue. It's not as if Howl and myself are making this story up as a way to pass time.

D) quotes:

Quote:


The only real reason I have for telling people that they might not have an issue with their set, is because they may not actually have an issue with their set. Let them go through all that hassle of trying to find out if they do, I don't care if they do or don't. Why would I care.......?!

If I were someone who just wandered into this thread, looking to find out some info on the WD-73640, and found all your negative posts on it, I'd be having some serious doubts about buying this TV. I think I would more than likely not buy the set just because of you. And if that were the case, I'd miss out on buying a really nice TV.

These two paragraphs seem to contradict themselves. One one hand, you don't care -- yet on another, you're a crusader out for the goo of the people.

And to whom are you actually referring regarding "all your negative posts"? Howl? Myself? GTGrey? |Tch0rT|? Nefarious? Or the dozen or so other users that have mentioned seeing the problem?

Sorry, Yad. It's a real problem. If this many people here see it, not to mention the fact that I've now had a Main Board swapped out for a new one and still have the bug... there's a very real (read, probably 100% chance) anyone who may buy the set in the future will see it as well. Unless we manage to get Mits to fix the problem, of course. How horrible that would be. Based on all the feedback here, the question isn't whether or not the problem exists --- the question is, how do we get Mits to fix it?

Lastly --- regarding me returning my set. Don't worry about me, I'm well covered. I'd rather the TV work as advertised, then get a refund, however. Thanks for your concern. Very sweet of you.
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post #1352 of 1890 Old 02-29-2012, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

One could easily see it 20 ft away on my 92". Mits clearly knows all about this issue, I have no doubt they knew long before they shipped it. When the 2011 units shipped they had already made the decision they were not going to do anything about it apparently... I don't really understand Mits point of view that this is a just consumer display, so screw them.

Quite a few people paid over $5k for the WD-92840 those folks should get love from Mitsubish not crap. There is probably a defect in a chipset and they can't fix it....... even if they wanted to. It probably needs a rev on the chipset.

My guess is they will just let their CR people argue with the ones that don't just go away. They clearly don't feel there is a reputational value here to salvage. To Mits or any one else deny the magnitude of this defect on picture quality is reidiculous,

For a community member to pooh pooh it makes me wonder why they are even on AVS.. Did you say ran your set in Brilliant mode? If that is true, you have made it clear to viturally everyone you are kind of lost in space if you are hanging out at AVS.


Bless your soul, GTGray. Agreed, 1,000%.
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post #1353 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

Nefarous, here's my settings I promised you from earlier...
...
All the 3d stuff is disabled. I haven't tried out the 3d on my TV yet. As you can see I don't do any funky stuff to get a good picture.

...


Thanks for sharing. I tried out the settings on my set and they didn't change my TV's behavior - so no magic bullet, but worth a try.
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post #1354 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 06:12 AM
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I have seen the issue since it was pointed out by TTHOWL but for all those who choose to ignore it so be it. Why argue with these folks. If they prefer to ignore the problem that is their right. For those who choose to recognize the issue and want Mitsubishi to address the problem let us all work to continue documenting the issue and possible solutions. No point in arguing on here with those who wish to ignore the issue. "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink".

Back to this proposed 3D mode fix....
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post #1355 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

I don't really understand Mits point of view that this is a just consumer display, so screw them.

Right. I doubt this is their true feeling on the issue,

but just one they tried on me.

I think they saw a lot of nerd / geek / professional-level-stuff in my presentation of the issue to them and so tried to play that card. Ha, wrong nerd. Just made it clear to me they were in cover up mode.

It was awfully silly, really, because while we may know what professional level quality is, it doesn't mean we don't know what consumer level should be. Which is why I really like that we now have the checkerboard workaround, and my before-and-after checkerboard fix photos. Try telling someone that one Stallone is just the consumer level version of the other.

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post #1356 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

Right. I doubt this is their true feeling on the issue,

but just one they tried on me.

I think they saw a lot of nerd / geek / professional-level-stuff in my presentation of the issue to them and so tried to play that card. Ha, wrong nerd. Just made it clear to me they were in cover up mode.

It was awfully silly, really, because while we may know what professional level quality is, it doesn't mean we don't know what consumer level should be. Which is why I really like that we now have the checkerboard workaround, and my before-and-after checkerboard fix photos. Try telling someone that one Stallone is just the consumer level version of the other.

HOWL are you certain this 3D mode is not presenting an interlaced image? That is what I think I am seeing.
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post #1357 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Nefarous View Post

Thanks for sharing. I tried out the settings on my set and they didn't change my TV's behavior - so no magic bullet, but worth a try.

Thank god the workaround is 3D Checkerboard and not Brilliant Color Temp High. LOL.

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post #1358 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

Thank god the workaround is 3D Checkerboard and not Brilliant Color Temp High. LOL.

Thank god I have a perfectly fine defect free Tv! What a relief! LOL!

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post #1359 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

Thank god I have a perfectly fine defect free Tv! What a relief! LOL!

Please stop. It's childish now. The two of you just leave each other alone.
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post #1360 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 10:54 AM
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Fair enough, let me rephrase it less personally:

My honest and informative opinion of Brilliant + Color Temp High is that it is LOL horrible. An unspeakable, yet very measurable deviation from the original signal.

Let me know if you'd like me to post some pictures.

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post #1361 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Empirical View Post

HOWL are you certain this 3D mode is not presenting an interlaced image? That is what I think I am seeing.

Yes.

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post #1362 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

Fair enough, let me rephrase it less personally:

My honest and informative opinion of Brilliant + Color Temp High is that it is LOL horrible. An unspeakable, yet very measurable deviation from the original signal.

Let me know if you'd like me to post some pictures.

My honest and informative opinion is that brilliant plus high color temp yields excellent defect free results. Everyone that has seen my tv agrees with me. If you don't agree with me perhaps you should keep your negative comments to yourself.

I'd rather not see any more pictures of your display, as it seems as though based on all the other pictures I've seen of it, you apparently don't know how to either properly set it up, or there might be something wrong with it, and you might want to look into getting it replaced. Thanks though.

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post #1363 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 01:52 PM
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In trying to keep things constructive, and to refrain from all the personal attacks that I and various others have had to unnecesarily endure. I'll ask you guys this...

Is it possible that all the people such as myself, who claim to not have the visual defect bug that some of you have. Is it possible that we actually might have the bug, but on our sets, its so minor and subtle, that that might be why were not seeing all the problems that some of you are seeing?

The only visual evidence I recall seeing is from httowl. And as we all know, his tv just looks horrible.

I'm typing this on my phone so its tough for me to go back and see if anyone else posted their own defective pics.

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post #1364 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Empirical View Post

...Pretty sure the checkerboard mode is an interlaced signal.

Checkerboard is not interlaced, it is interleaved, and yes there is a difference.

Interlaced refers to interlacing odd and even lines to form a full frame, and the interlaced content is typically half of the following frame as it progresses. If frame 1 has odd lines A and even lines B, to get to frame 2 with odd lines A and even lines B, it progresses thus; 1A,1B (first frame) then 2A,1B (combined frames) then, finally 2A,2B (second frame). This is why one sees "jaggies" in interlaced content.

In checkerboard, the two sub frames are always part of the same frame.

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post #1365 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

Is it possible that all the people such as myself, who claim to not have the visual defect bug that some of you have.

How many people like "yourself" are there, and how many in comparison to those with the problem?

Quote:


The only visual evidence I recall seeing is from httowl. And as we all know, his tv just looks horrible.

I've posted MANY pics myself... Of the ESPN logo, many different text areas in the ESPN Sportscenter screens, from BD's of Scarface, Transformers 2 and God knows what else. Several others have posted pics as well.
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post #1366 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 03:10 PM
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Excellent coverage of the topic of interlacing, Augerhandle. Been meaning to tell you how much I enjoyed your copious discussion of the SmoothPicture algorithm in another (old) thread, and the resulting PDF linked in your signature. An accessible must read for all. Expounds on the merits of wobulation like I've never found elsewhere, even years after you wrote it.

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post #1367 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JP32 View Post

How many people like "yourself" are there, and how many in comparison to those with the problem?

I have no way of possibly knowing that.

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Originally Posted by JP32 View Post

I've posted MANY pics myself... Of the ESPN logo, many different text areas in the ESPN Sportscenter screens, from BD's of Scarface, Transformers 2 and God knows what else. Several others have posted pics as well.

Good to know. After awhile those pics just started blurring together and it got to the point where it was tough to differentiate who posted what off the top of my head.

But back to the original point of my last post.

Is it possible that all TV's have the bug defect like you guys have suggested, but the reason we are not seeing the defect, is because it's just not as bad as it is for us, as it is for you?

Do you guys happen to know the answer to that?

From what I keep reading from you guys, ALL TV's have it. So if we all have it, maybe we're not seeing it because there's varying degrees of defectiveness.

I think if we were able to verify this, it would go a long ways towards helping solve the problem.

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post #1368 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by thhowl View Post

Right. I doubt this is their true feeling on the issue,

but just one they tried on me.

I think they saw a lot of nerd / geek / professional-level-stuff in my presentation of the issue to them and so tried to play that card. Ha, wrong nerd. Just made it clear to me they were in cover up mode.

It was awfully silly, really, because while we may know what professional level quality is, it doesn't mean we don't know what consumer level should be. Which is why I really like that we now have the checkerboard workaround, and my before-and-after checkerboard fix photos. Try telling someone that one Stallone is just the consumer level version of the other.

The thing is....lets assume ( even though evidence puts this wayyyy past assume), the defect is real, and present.
Mitsu sees you as one guy, and you can only do so much damage by yourself unless you get a CA going, at which point someones gonna have to spend $ to truly determine if MITSU knew/covered up/ignored etc etc.

Call your credit card, dispute the charges due to your defects. Provide those to your CC, they will issue a chargeback. Dont buy another Mitsu.

The consumer level story is bull! None of my other consumer level displays in the house has that issue.


Now u did get my attn with that back yard photo of those people. I want to put those up, because I displayed some personal photos on PS3 and didnt see that type of 'magic' on my family's faces.
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post #1369 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

From what I keep reading from you guys, ALL TV's have it. So if we all have it, maybe we're not seeing it because there's varying degrees of defectiveness.

I think if we were able to verify this, it would go a long ways towards helping solve the problem.

I would honesly like to see a photo of ESPN on your set.
Show the sharpness setting in the photo. Thats the easiest test.
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post #1370 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 04:19 PM
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You do any checking on what components these guys may supply?
Interesting they have a suppliers attention.
7 hits from Shenzhen, China, location of Shenzhen Hailan Machine & Electronic Automation Equipment Ltd, a.k.a. Shenzhen Hailan Machine & Electronic Equipment Co. Ltd, a.k.a Shenzhen Hailan Mechanical & Electrical Equipment Ltd (apparently variations in translation are OK for a company name) - anyway, a manufacturer and exporter of Mitsubishi components.
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post #1371 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 05:28 PM
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...Pounded my site harder than any of you and all this forum's visitors, and all my friends and relatives had in months, per day, for this specific gallery including:
- 50 visits by Windows-based, Japanese language web browsers in East Irvine CA/Lake Forest, Mits service headquarters,
- 14 Macintosh visits the next day from same place and,
- That same next day, 57 hits from one person, in Oviedo FL, 20 minutes from Mitsubishi Power Systems Americas, Inc, over RoadRunner.com, using Linux and Chrome on a 1680x1050 display. Linux: Probably an engineer.
- 7 hits from Shenzhen, China, location of Shenzhen Hailan Machine & Electronic Automation Equipment Ltd, a.k.a. Shenzhen Hailan Machine & Electronic Equipment Co. Ltd, a.k.a Shenzhen Hailan Mechanical & Electrical Equipment Ltd (apparently variations in translation are OK for a company name) - anyway, a manufacturer and exporter of Mitsubishi components...

Well, no matter what they told you, all this activity appears to reveal that they are at least taking a seriously hard look at the issue. Hang in there.

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post #1372 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 05:30 PM
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calimark, thanks for the idea. I bought on a Best Buy charge card which I doubt has those benefits (though it may), but mostly: while I did want a refund at the time, before the workaround was found, I certainly do not want one now. I want a hardware fix or a software fix if there is one, and a software workaround if there isn't, to make the current workaround less ghastly.

As to the advice to never buy Mits again, that's not at all how I handle single failures in a single product. (Er, product line, but just one midst a huge array of product lines.)

Except for fly-by-nights, born-last-nights, and always-junk-no-matter-the-nights, I take each product as its own thing and reserve judgement against the entire company.

I am not angry at Mitsubishi in general, but over a specific issue. (And their handling of it too, but I have now rationalized that as just the rules of the market, as you too mentioned.) I am certainly not, as some have accused me of at Amazon.com, just trying to speak ill of Mitsubishi as much I can, out of spite. Or to hurt their sales. I just want awareness raised, exactly due to the rules of the market.

I'm tickled by the comment on the backyard photos. That is my wife and daughter on the right.
Graduating daughter and son are also in the original/fancy 1920x1090 test image. But YES, isn't it horrible?! I have tons of faces that look horrible and am surprised to hear you haven't noticed in your own photos. Check out the other test images in my gallery for more.

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post #1373 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 05:32 PM
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So..... trying to get past all the incessant bickering...... This checkerboard mode, it's 60 hz, 120hz?
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post #1374 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empirical View Post

This checkerboard mode, it's 60 hz, 120hz?

60Hz for the complete frame. 120Hz subframes, which is different than 120HZ on an LCD set.

An LCD set needs an 120 Hz or better refresh rate to alleviate motion problems. DLP does not. It's an entirely different animal. An LCD repeats frames, and flashes them at twice speed (120Hz) to try to smooth out motion issues.

On a DLP, the 120Hz subframes divides each frame into two, and is how it creates the picture. Coincidentally, it is what enables 3D on these sets. For more, or perhaps too much, information you can click the pdf in my signature.

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post #1375 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

60Hz for the complete frame. 120Hz subframes, which is different than 120HZ on an LCD set.

An LCD set needs an 120 Hz or better refresh rate to alleviate motion problems. DLP does not. It's an entirely different animal. An LCD repeats frames, and flashes them at twice speed (120Hz) to try to smooth out motion issues.

On a DLP, the 120Hz subframes divides each frame into two, and is how it creates the picture. Coincidentally, it is what enables 3D on these sets. For more, or perhaps too much, information you can click the pdf in my signature.

I thought the whitepaper link I posted earlier was actually a better resource
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post21712856

I am just trying to fully grasp what the set is and isn't doing when this mode is engaged. Clearly it's not intended for "conventional" viewing.
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post #1376 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

An LCD repeats frames, and flashes them at twice speed (120Hz) to try to smooth out motion issues.

Actually, it displays an interpolated image between the two key frames to smooth out the motion issues.

And introduce other artifacts, because no frame interpolation is perfect.

When that motion smoothing feature is disabled, indeed repeating the same frame twice, I believe the 120hz helps with ghosting. Which ghosting is, in some form, a motion smoother, ironically.

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post #1377 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 06:24 PM
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No idea why this post isn't on here, but this is the email I received:L

thhowl has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - 2011 Mitsubishi DLP WD-73640 official thread - in the Rear Projection Units forum of AVS Forum.

"Wow. I cannot believe you were offended by me telling you that READING was how I knew stuff and was sure of my statements your were questioning. I had you pegged back then, and you still haven't changed after calling me all sorts of things over how insulted you felt. It was a considered reply then, it's my considered reply now. I don't insult, I inform. You getting insulted is your choice. Ready ?

Go READ.

Go read in this very page, just a few posts up. What part of "An accessible must read for all." do you not understand? In what part of my recent replies to GEP, Alaskan, did you not see Hz discussed?


What part of Google do you not understand? There is plenty of obscure or uncommon information to ask about in this thread, but any quick Google will answer most basic questions - oh look what "is checkerboard 3d 60hz" turns up, and that's a very poorly worded search. Do this please, to get answers without adding chaff and boredom to a thread and wasting someone's time - cause God knows if we don't answer you, you'll just post again: "Anyone? Anyone? " I know you are not stupid. Stop being lazy brained.

How's that for bickering. Seriously Empirical. You have no idea what restraint some of us exercise on a daily basis on this board.

You have been SOOO stupid to me about the defect issue, I really owed you this final vent."
http://oi44.tinypic.com/2dum0wn.jpg


All I can say is wow. I don't think I have encountered such a self righteous bully on any forum. You sir need psychological help.
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post #1378 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

In trying to keep things constructive, and to refrain from all the personal attacks that I and various others have had to unnecesarily endure. I'll ask you guys this...

Is it possible that all the people such as myself, who claim to not have the visual defect bug that some of you have. Is it possible that we actually might have the bug, but on our sets, its so minor and subtle, that that might be why were not seeing all the problems that some of you are seeing?

The only visual evidence I recall seeing is from httowl. And as we all know, his tv just looks horrible.

I'm typing this on my phone so its tough for me to go back and see if anyone else posted their own defective pics.

I have the same issues and I have posted pictures in the 840 series thread since I have the 92840. It is weird though because it is definitely hit or miss on what I can see it on.

I can see it on ESPN and during some other TV programs/logos but not on others.

I watched The Dark Knight on Blu Ray the other night and during the bank robbery the striped tie on the crooked banker looked like a bunch of caterpillars moving around.

I am using the checkerboard work around for now and haven't noticed the problem anymore.

The thing that gets me is that my 73833 never displayed those issues so why would a new set have this kind of bug?
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post #1379 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 08:07 PM
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Empirical, I will not let you falsely accuse me in public. Every man has his limits. You just hit mine. I thought you had reached it one post back, but I decided I could keep being the strong one.

(And I admit I wish I were stronger, for the sake of the others here. I vow, for the others, to stop after this post. Unless you add another, different, false accusation. But repeating the same one will be fine.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empirical View Post

No idea why this post isn't on here, but this is the email I received: [...]


Oh, Empirical, it's simple:

Imediately after posting, I was rereading myself to catch typos like the line that meant to say "You have been SOOO stupid toward me" (as in treating me poorly, in a very stupid manner) - while trying to correct that - and I do sincerely apologize for THAT miscommunication - I saw that Augerhandle had gracefully answered your question and at that point, and because it had kept coming to my mind, I said to myself:

"bah, what's the use, he's just going to miss the point completely, get offended, and call me more names."

And I deleted it. Again, you have no idea how much effort I put into NOT unloading what I really think.



Then, I kid you not, I went to the bathroom, and there I realized:

"Ha, he'll probably cut and paste the post, even though it's obviously been deleted, and he could take it as me regretting it, but he won't even think of that, so clouded by unfounded anger."



And now we are here, thanks to your reply, where you address none of the issues I raise, but instead falsely accuse me of bullying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empirical View Post

I don't think I have encountered such a self righteous bully on any forum. You sir need psychological help.

Empirical, psychologically, you are a passive aggressive with victimization syndrome who is manipulative (see sly period where you were suddenly pretending to be nice to me to coax me to leave) and takes every disagreement as a personal attack - in line with your PMs a while back to JP32 and I, where you ask "Do you have something personal against me?" and provide no other detail. This after mere logical, and non-personal replies to some of your nonsense. You are clearly very hurt inside, and have very low self esteem, complaining often about others behavior while getting enraged - and losing cognitive skills - by any complaints about your behavior , which should be met instead with empathy, but never with you - in line with some past posts, and the last one. You are in such a high state of self-protection, that you mistake as censorship the mere request that you help the rest of us by cleaning up posts where you say your "picture is great, doesn't have the defect" now that you readily admit having the defect and wanting it to get fixed. The memory of your own offenses is crowded out by the memory of others offenses (a fairly typical human trait, but yours is unhealthy) This is where me saying "You have been SOOO stupid toward me" (as in treating me poorly) came from.

Yes, I painstakenly wrote all that myself, and didn't just paste in some canned insult. Avid psychology reader didn't fit under my handle. This mention of another of my areas of knowledge is not a sarcastic statement, it's an informative fact. Taking offense is your choice. But remember who started on psychology. (you actually started on it, about me, way back, but I blew it off then.)



This is not bullying. Calling names without backing up with facts is bullying. Until you point to some real facts about my posts not being warranted, pointing to a real psychological abnormality beyond "you pushed him too far" - until then, your "psychological help" comment remains a cheap, CHILDISH insult.


This is not bullying. This is sheer frustration as I tried to explain in my retracted post.


In summary, THHOWL is not a bully: Empirical suffers from victimization, is Labeling, and is the actual bully.

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post #1380 of 1890 Old 03-01-2012, 08:20 PM
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Wow can you guys take all this bs some where else.

And there really is no dumb question, some people have a better understanding of how these tv's work, or general tv technology. I would be afraid to ask a simple question in this thread from some of the replies.
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