2011 Mitsubishi DLP WD-73640 official thread - Page 47 - AVS Forum
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post #1381 of 1880 Old 03-01-2012, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaskan_awd View Post

Wow can you guys take all this bs some where else.

+1

Seriously a lot of people should have developed some thicker skin and not be bothered by some of the earlier comments from either side that I have read. Take the high road and quit throwing insults at each other already. It is annoying and pointless. Both of these threads have devolved into childish name calling and finger pointing when the issue in these threads needs to be focused at Mitsubishi and trying to get a resolution and not fighting each other.

Some people don't/can't see the issue or think their TV is good as is...fine.

Some people including me see the issue and have visual proof to show the issues they are having...fine.

There is no point in people bickering back and forth about who has TV's that have the issue and those that don't. Obviously people on either side aren't going to be changing the other peoples minds or make them magically see an issue that they may or may not have.

I can't believe that this can't be discussed like grown adults instead of acting like preschoolers.
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post #1382 of 1880 Old 03-01-2012, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natrix1973 View Post


The thing that gets me is that my 73833 never displayed those issues so why would a new set have this kind of bug?

In addition to my 92840 I have a 2009 82", a WD-82837. That set lacks sufficient illumination (it just is not bright enough). I think in the process of redesigning to make the sets brighter Mits make a mistake. I suspect it is in a core processor and the chip order probably was a one and done deal. Mit did not I am sure expect to get a great deal of unit volume out of the 2011 models, certainly not comparable to in the past when they sold large numbers of 60" and 65" sets. If a hardware fix is required and the chipsets have to be redesigned manufactured and a ton of new spare main boards need to be built you would have a first class nightmare on your hands. I think Mits has a first class nightmare on their hands. Having worked for a decade and a half at a giant CE company I know they will only fix this if they are dragged kicking and screaming to do so. The handful of us here who even know about the issue are very small subset of the installed based. This is the storm they wait out and hope it goes away. For those who never stop complaining maybe they make a deal with you to to get next years hopefully fixed version.. Unless a software fix will resolve the issue I don't believe in my heart of hearts that Mits will do a hardware fix. I pray they will, but would not hold my breath.

Just another blank signature.
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post #1383 of 1880 Old 03-01-2012, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natrix1973 View Post

+1

Seriously a lot of people should have developed some thicker skin and not be bothered by some of the earlier comments from either side that I have read. Take the high road and quit throwing insults at each other already. It is annoying and pointless. Both of these threads have devolved into childish name calling and finger pointing when the issue in these threads needs to be focused at Mitsubishi and trying to get a resolution and not fighting each other.

Some people don't/can't see the issue or think their TV is good as is...fine.

Some people including me see the issue and have visual proof to show the issues they are having...fine.

There is no point in people bickering back and forth about who has TV's that have the issue and those that don't. Obviously people on either side aren't going to be changing the other peoples minds or make them magically see an issue that they may or may not have.

I can't believe that this can't be discussed like grown adults instead of acting like preschoolers.

I agree with you completely.

I've suggested this a few times as others have as well. But the suggestion just keeps getting swept under the rug and continuously gets ignored. It's a completely valid suggestion, and I would appreciate it to at least be acknowledged. I will suggest it 1 more time...

Tthowl, being as you're the 1 who is spearheading the defect bug movement, and the 1 who is by far the most vocal on it, would you please start a brand new thread dealing specifically with the defect bug? If not tthowl, maybe someone else would be so kind to do so?

I suggest this as you've come to the conclusion that this bug is not on just the TV you own, but on all 2011 Mitsubishi RPTV's.

As such, it would probably be alot more helpful to keep all content associated with the defect bug in 1 clear and concise thread. Instead of having the info in multiple threads.

It's very common for people to start threads like this to keep the content better focused.

Do you think you could possibly consider doing this?

It sure seems to me like this would be the most appropriate thing to do. I'm sure like me, everyone's getting pretty tired of being angry at each other all the time. If the 2 parties are separated, this should get things back to being a more joyful place to be....

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post #1384 of 1880 Old 03-01-2012, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natrix1973 View Post

+1

Seriously a lot of people should have developed some thicker skin and not be bothered by some of the earlier comments from either side that I have read. Take the high road and quit throwing insults at each other already. It is annoying and pointless. Both of these threads have devolved into childish name calling and finger pointing when the issue in these threads needs to be focused at Mitsubishi and trying to get a resolution and not fighting each other.

Some people don't/can't see the issue or think their TV is good as is...fine.

Some people including me see the issue and have visual proof to show the issues they are having...fine.

There is no point in people bickering back and forth about who has TV's that have the issue and those that don't. Obviously people on either side aren't going to be changing the other peoples minds or make them magically see an issue that they may or may not have.

I can't believe that this can't be discussed like grown adults instead of acting like preschoolers.

The reason it matters whether this is a universal problem or not relates to the possibility or likelihood of a fix coming. If there are sets that work perfectly than a root caused can be understood and a fix generated. If they all exhibit the problem then the root cause if not already known could be much harder to identify. While I have nothing other than intuition to go by. I believe Mits knew there was an issue and they decided we were all a bunch of happy idots and the liability would be manageable.. I doubt there are any sets working properly, sad that some are loathe to investigate there displays when such simple tests are involved.

This is clearly a case where if united we might have a shot at getting Mits to do something, divided our small chance of action just gets smaller.

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post #1385 of 1880 Old 03-01-2012, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

united we might have a shot at getting Mits to do something, divided our small chance of action just gets smaller.

..on the topic of the defect. Other topics are fair game for serious disagreement.

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post #1386 of 1880 Old 03-01-2012, 10:15 PM
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My Mittsu just shut itself off and then the little green light was blinkly very fast. It was blinking faster than it does when I shut it off for the night.

Any ideas? Is it getting too hot?

Also, the sound levels are off. When I turn it up its louder than usual. I have it on 6 and its very loud.

Hope it isn't broken. I love this TV.
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post #1387 of 1880 Old 03-01-2012, 10:37 PM
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Yikes, I have no idea about the sound issue. The auto shut off does sound like other's experience here with overheating. Sorry to hear about this, and I know what you mean about loving this TV. I love mine too.

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post #1388 of 1880 Old 03-01-2012, 11:21 PM
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I have so enjoyed your posts on the matter, over these weeks, gtgray. This last one included.

On the prognosis, I feel the same. The statistics gathered from this board and at Amazon.com very much influencing my bet (ratio of outcry momentum to time, evidence, pain, and human stupidity, which I have a renewed appreciation for.)

Fortunately, if it wasn't obvious from recently unloading my extremely-taxing BS-filter, I am content with the workaround, the pain of its side-effects probably diminished for me due to all the pain endured and energy sapped by this whole ordeal, and the due to the sheer magnitude of the PQ increase. I think I am still in new owner's state of elation whereby nothing can be wrong with this thing it's so awesome.

I am fortunate to not have as bad a problem with the dimmer 3D mode as you may have, and I empathize with your cost+defect plight that is greater than mine. I hope you find a way soon to work around it. I did find using bright lamp mode to help with pop - maybe I said that already. It's late.

I will end with the report of one finding no one has mentioned: another side-effect of requiring 3D mode: component input, 1080i component input, usually razor sharp from my XBOX, near HDMI quality, so I like to believe, is NOT ALLOWED to use the 3D Checkerboard mode. May be fixable in a software rev - I have thought hard and don't see why not - but until then that's a dead input as far as the list of the effects of the defect go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

In addition to my 92840 I have a 2009 82", a WD-82837. That set lacks sufficient illumination (it just is not bright enough). I think in the process of redesigning to make the sets brighter Mits make a mistake. I suspect it is in a core processor and the chip order probably was a one and done deal. Mit did not I am sure expect to get a great deal of unit volume out of the 2011 models, certainly not comparable to in the past when they sold large numbers of 60" and 65" sets. If a hardware fix is required and the chipsets have to be redesigned manufactured and a ton of new spare main boards need to be built you would have a first class nightmare on your hands. I think Mits has a first class nightmare on their hands. Having worked for a decade and a half at a giant CE company I know they will only fix this if they are dragged kicking and screaming to do so. The handful of us here who even know about the issue are very small subset of the installed based. This is the storm they wait out and hope it goes away. For those who never stop complaining maybe they make a deal with you to to get next years hopefully fixed version.. Unless a software fix will resolve the issue I don't believe in my heart of hearts that Mits will do a hardware fix. I pray they will, but would not hold my breath.


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post #1389 of 1880 Old 03-01-2012, 11:37 PM
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It's back on with no problems. I believe the sound issue is fine, I don't think it's doing it anymore.

I've had this tv for about three weeks and it's impressive. The colors are amazing, ive never paid so much attention to color.

I love Blu Ray now, I just wish the movies werent shot in 2:35, but in 1:75. It's terrible to waste so much screen with letterbox, it truly ruins the experience.
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post #1390 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empirical View Post

I thought the whitepaper link I posted earlier was actually a better resource
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post21712856

I am just trying to fully grasp what the set is and isn't doing when this mode is engaged. Clearly it's not intended for "conventional" viewing.

Yes, but you'd be surprised how many people read that whitepaper and still don't understand how DLP works. For example, you yourself thought Checkerboard was interlaced after reading it.

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post #1391 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

Yes, but you'd be surprised how many people read that whitepaper and still don't understand how DLP works. For example, you yourself thought Checkerboard was interlaced after reading it.

Yes, I was not certain.
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post #1392 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Alaskan_awd View Post

Wow can you guys take all this bs some where else.

And there really is no dumb question, some people have a better understanding of how these tv's work, or general tv technology. I would be afraid to ask a simple question in this thread from some of the replies.

I completely agree. If you look back through the last couple pages I have been trying to get Howl to stop his childish bickering with YADGF. I am tired of all the unnecessary crap in this thread. Then he attacks me out of nowhere.

Funny thing is if you really go back through this thread I thanked him several times for his posts on the defect and was probably one of the first people to post the ESPN logo and use his de-saturation test image on the PC .
I really have tried to keep the peace and stay on topic. I apologize for any of my posts that strayed. I just could not believe what I was reading when I opened my email, a completely uncalled for personal attack, and this after he had Personal messaged me through the board apologizing for previous bickering. Honestly this is all just ridiculous. Let's stay on the TV, how to improve it, how to get Mitsubishi to take action on our behalf. Why does that have to keep getting restated?
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post #1393 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 05:30 AM
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Unfortuneately.... If MITS ever stumbles across this thread... They willl probably ignore all the good things this thread has provided with regard to the artifacts we are seeing, after reading the 'sandbox chronicles"...

howl, you hav obviously found something... I think we all can agree on that....

However, by degrading to the sandbox level.... it's becoming highly counter-productive.


howl, I certainly hope you have contacted MITS.... With all your posts, I don't recall if you did or not... And even if rejected the first time you could push the issue... There is precedence that MITS has fixed problems that were re-introduced after first rejection.

You have made your point, to us... Did you do so to Mits?

P.S. I haven't found ADV settings that mimick Natural (or any other) adjustment levels... So here checkerboard adjustment fixes one issue, causes another.... After hitting Enter to post this, I'll go to printer an read the white paper....

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post #1394 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan J View Post

Unfortuneately.... If MITS ever stumbles across this thread... They willl probably ignore all the good things this thread has provided with regard to the artifacts we are seeing, after reading the 'sandbox chronicles"...

Which is exactly why me and many other people keep suggesting to tthowl to just start a new thread! You have to wonder what his agenda really is.

Is it really to try and get Mitsubishi to fix a problem?

Or is it to just bad mouth and run a smear campaign against Mitsubishi because he's not happy with the TV he bought from them?

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post #1395 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 06:30 AM
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The left side picture on page 3 of white paper seems to show the offset clearly, and the color shot of eye shows the resultant improvement, but I need some further clarification please...

As seen in page 3, the shifting is horizontal in nature...

Image enhancement (Contours, sharpness, whatever buzzword you use) is based upon luminance change.... shifting an image left and right will result in horizontal based enhancement (Seen as Vertical edges) and the artivact howl has shown us is clearly seen as Horizontal edges and or lines.

Since the white paper shows only a horizontal shift how would that make for a preponderance of Horizontal based lines, which can only be developed by looking at an image over multiple horizontal lines, i.e. Vertical in nature.

For example, if you took video, and fed it onto two paths, one delayed less than a us, and the other not delayed at all (Let's call this 0H).... you could find 'edges' of the video image by comparing the two and look for one to be higher/lower than the other. This would generate horizontal contours (sharpness, Enhancement).... But this would not find vertical edges.....
To find vertical edges, you could delay 0H by two 1 full horizontal line delay's.... and by comparing pixel by pixel the 3 signals, 0H, 1H, 2H you could find the Vertical edges in the video...
By adding the H and V edges together, and Mixing them back into the picture, you get both H and V Sharpness (Contours, enhancement)...

Now, back to the wite paper.... We know there's a sharpness, contour, enhancement adjustment.... The question is.... If there is horizontal wobulation, but no vetical wobulation... (This according to page 3 drawings) Wouldn't the horizontal congours be twice the amplitude of the Vertical contours due to the wobulation?

But Wait! this is the end of the line... Next stop is our eyes.... Any sharpness (Contours, enhancement) had to be pre-mixed into the video before it gets to DLP mirors.....

So... Let's assume that to compensate for the 2times H contour effect of the wobulation would have on our eyes (Seeing that enhancement must be added before the mirrors, but the mirrors are taking two images and rocking them right and left. So, to counteract this, we intentionally reduce the H contour by .5...
Therefore: .5 *2=1 Ok, now mathematically we have compensated H detail, sharpness, etc. for the horizontal wobulation....

All this makes sense, until you look a few thing howl has pointed out to us:
The ESPN Logo aritfact is VERTICAL IN NATURE..
The dots along teeth, lips, and other things is VERTICLE IN NATURE!

This would lead me to believe (Think) that the artifact is some strange effect of enhancement, Vertical rate enhancement... Except that adding enhancement seems to mask it.... which is counter to what I just described.

I'm intrigued as to what this is.... howl has found something... hopefully MITS is working on it.... We have found ways to mask it somewhat.

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post #1396 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 06:31 AM
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Oh my.

Actually, all the cause needs is for you three to stay right here in this thread.

You have no idea how helpful you are being for my agenda.

And that's OK.

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post #1397 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 07:00 AM
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So I'm going to take a different approach with MITS....
I just submitted a question to them....

Basically said that I--too have seen the V rate Artifact that appears as dots below lips teeth, ESPN Logo, etc... but have found that Checkboard seems to mask it but then the picture is not correct.....

I spec1ifically requested the ADVANCED Settings to Equate: Natural, Bright, Brillance...
So That I could manually put those settings into ADV1 or ADV2 so as to return the picture quality to those presets within ADV1 or 2, so I could then run in Checkerboard mode with these provided settings in ADV1 or 2, and it would then provide a temporair work around until they developed a firmware fix....

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post #1398 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 10:38 AM
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howl... The reason why I don't know if you've posted your results with Mits, is because you've posted SO MUCH that at times we scan past it as repetitive....
Have you contacted Mits, and What did they say?

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post #1399 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan J View Post

howl... The reason why I don't know if you've posted your results with Mits, is because you've posted SO MUCH that at times we scan past it as repetitive....
Have you contacted Mits, and What did they say?

Howl posted his results from Mits a couple days ago.

The bullet points are these:

* Given the run-around till he got managment to call him back

* Was given the line "limitation of the set" and "it is, what it is". Basically, "tough ****, douchebag. Thanks for buying Mitsubishi."
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post #1400 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 10:58 AM
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Oh... That accounts for his 'attitude'... He's probably a bit ticked at the world right now....

It is mask-able... I didn't really see it until I turned down the sharpness...

Hopefully Mits will take a different approach with my question... And if not, I know how to mask it.....

It would be nice to know with the equivalents of Normal, Bright, and Brillant are in ADVANCED Trems... with that information I could interpret the rest...

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post #1401 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 10:58 AM
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Hey, no fair. Short messages are so much quicker to post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP32 View Post

Howl posted his results from Mits a couple days ago.

The bullet points are these:

* Given the run-around till he got managment to call him back

* Was given the line "limitation of the set" and "it is, what it is". Basically, "tough ****, douchebag. Thanks for buying Mitsubishi."


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post #1402 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan J View Post

It would be nice to know with the equivalents of Normal, Bright, and Brillant are in ADVANCED Trems... with that information I could interpret the rest...

I agree with that.

But can we all stop the personal attacks?

There's a problem with Mitsubishi sets in 2011 models.

Most of us want to have this problem fixed. Therefore, we agree, and should be on the same page. How annoyed we are regarding the bug is irrelevent, we see it and would like it fixed.

For those who don't see it, or don't care enough to even expand the energy to 'want' it fixed.... please butt out. You don't have a horse in the race, as the saying goes. Your TV pleases YOU, ours do not. Why attempt to undermine our efforts in getting it fixed?
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post #1403 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 11:09 AM
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I highly doubt but hope we will get a fix.
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post #1404 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 11:26 AM
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Really howl, I feel you have found something... Many time I've said such, and I'd love to know what it is.....

If it is not going to be 'fixed' then we all need to re-double our efforts to work on creating the cleanest "Mask" we can.....

If, at a later time Mits comes up with a fix.... All the better

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post #1405 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 07:47 PM
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please limit your posts to technical issues or leave the thread

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post #1406 of 1880 Old 03-02-2012, 10:02 PM
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My ex bought the 73C11 recently, and I can't wait to check it out more closely when I calibrate it after she breaks in the lamp.

"The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"-Tibetan Proverb
 
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post #1407 of 1880 Old 03-03-2012, 04:30 AM
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Ok, I lied Since know one seemed to know how to legally get this started I will push the info.. Start filing complaints to get the ball rolling. I already did.

http://www.usa.gov/directory/bbb/index.shtml

Then go here:

http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/node/add/complaint
Since Howl has the better write up on this, and I don't want to "lie" about me being the one spotting this first, need to copy/paste the full detail in the description.

Start it like this:



Make sure to use the POST link to specific posts in this thread that show the defect. Other than a rep telling you its a 2011 defect, is there a way to get a written confirmation? Probably not as that would make them Liable. Everyone that has this problem needs to file to at least show there is a problem.

Just trying to help you guys. I couldn't resist.

Cool Beans.
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post #1408 of 1880 Old 03-03-2012, 06:19 AM
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There's also The Consumerist.

My Home Theater/Video Gaming/HTPC/2 Channel rig (Mitsubishi, MartinLogan, Marantz, DIYMA, and others)

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post #1409 of 1880 Old 03-03-2012, 10:02 AM
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He's already re-opened it....
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post #1410 of 1880 Old 03-04-2012, 06:48 AM
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As someone who is thinking about getting one of these sets Dell has the 73 inch variation on sale for 999 and has gone through several pages of arguing. A simple question with the workaround in mind. Would you buy the TV again with this kind of glitch knowing that a workaround fixed it? I'm on the fence.. the price and size look great.
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