2011 Mitsubishi DLP WD-73640 official thread - Page 54 - AVS Forum
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post #1591 of 1880 Old 05-01-2012, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfish123 View Post

I posted in the calibration section and got some responses- http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post21965131

Check out the link in the 2nd post for a great tutorial. Basically the jist of it is to calibrate CMS based on 75% saturation (NOT 75% brightness windows) These are on AVS 709 in the saturations section (bottom right of HCFR windows section). Although I'm a little over saturated at 100% saturation, the curve is way flater from 0 - 75% saturation. Its a good compromise and subjectively it looks better. Less greenish with a warmer feel and a little more punch in the colors. Flesh tones look ultra realistic now!

And yes we can set the 100% white Y value higher than 100 and then just adjust the rest of the colors off the recommended % of 100% white Y.

What I was missing was I had all my xy coordinates dead on using CMS but the Y value (brightness of each color was off). In other words you can have the correct ratio of colors but not enough total brightness. E.g. If your red was at 20, 15, 10 that might be the right mix to get xy accurate but if the Y value is too low you might have to bump everything up 25, 20, 15 (same ratios, but more light out put) to get the Y value correct.

In HCFR you can run saturations ---> All colors to see where you stand and then tweak from there. You'll see results on the CIE triangle, saturation - shift graph and saturation - luminance graph. Saturation-luminance was a little tricky. I could be wrong but it almost seems like for Red, blue, and cyan (at the bottom, increasing Y value makes them go up and decreasing Y makes them go down. However, and I could be wrong, for Green, cyan, and yellow, increasing Y value makes them go down and decreasing Y makes them go up. I could be wrong but I think that's how it behaves.

I'm still learning so if anyone who knows more than me can verify my interpretations I'd find that helpful

P.S. The saturation - luminance attached was on my second run. I did it a 3rd time and by increasing output on RGB for green, it raised my Y value but decreased the saturation-luminance - you'll see on that attachment that its way too high. I'll post my recalibrated one this evening when I get home from work.

You set should easily make 40 ft lamberts and more without any issue. You might have to choose to have the lamp on bright. Also the use of the Eye One LT is a pretty iffy meter out of the box to judge anything with.

I have the new D3 Pro with a rear projection DLP table. This table is based on a 5 nm reference spectro. Any colorimeter without a table or profile for the technology is not going to produce the results you are looking for. If you rent a spectro from SpectraCal you can train/profile your LT to be accurate on your Mits Rear Projector. Also the entry level X-Write colorimeters are notorius for just being off out of the box. The filters deteriorate quickly even if stored properly. They are much more useful if they are trained by creating a table with a spectrometer on the specific display. For the most part without a spectrometer to calibrate them with on the specific display they are often darn near worthless.

I don't find it necessary to use 75% saturation patterns on 92840. I do it the standard way with 75% stimulus 100% saturation window patterns. That is what is available on my DUO and is also available on the AVS disk. I am using a 92840 and an external video processor. I looked at 75% saturation patterns and did not see the same linear results as you did.

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post #1592 of 1880 Old 05-01-2012, 12:06 PM
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I would further add it is classic for an Eye One Diplay LT or 2 to read red low. Calibrations done with these meters often appear excessively red.

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post #1593 of 1880 Old 05-01-2012, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtgray View Post

You set should easily make 40 ft lamberts and more without any issue. You might have to choose to have the lamp on bright. Also the use of the Eye One LT is a pretty iffy meter out of the box to judge anything with.

I have the new D3 Pro with a rear projection DLP table. This table is based on a 5 nm reference spectro. Any colorimeter without a table or profile for the technology is not going to produce the results you are looking for. If you rent a spectro from SpectraCal you can train/profile your LT to be accurate on your Mits Rear Projector. Also the entry level X-Write colorimeters are notorius for just being off out of the box. The filters deteriorate quickly even if stored properly. They are much more useful if they are trained by creating a table with a spectrometer on the specific display. For the most part without a spectrometer to calibrate them with on the specific display they are often darn near worthless.

I don't find it necessary to use 75% saturation patterns on 92840. I do it the standard way with 75% stimulus 100% saturation window patterns. That is what is available on my DUO and is also available on the AVS disk. I am using a 92840 and an external video processor. I looked at 75% saturation patterns and did not see the same linear results as you did.


Thanks for all the helpful info. I can get in excess of 40ftL but at that level the Y value % of the colors in relation to the 100% IRE White Y go even more out of spec which is why I backed down the contrast. Any way around this?

I think I might rent a Spectroradiometer - it looks like the ipro 3 is the way to go since the cheaper C6 is just a colorimeter, right? In other words, go with this package: http://store.spectracal.com/consumer...l?options=cart I'll do my calibration with it when I get it in the mail and I'll also use the training function in HCFR (since that's the software I'll have the future) to build a correction file. That way I can use my Eyeone LT accurately in the future.

As far as the 75% stimulus / 100% saturation method that's actually new for but I'd like to try it. Do you have xyY targets for this method? In the calibration for dummies: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457 it says to use 100% stimulus / 100% saturation and the other guide I used recommended 100% stimulus / 75% saturation. thanks
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post #1594 of 1880 Old 05-02-2012, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by GEP View Post

Try changing teh Glasses L-R setting when it looks incorrect.

That did the trick! I really don't need the black box! Basically the box and the TV have reverse default settings for which eye is L and which is R for SBS movies but the box can't switch LR so the TV's controls are actually more robust.
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post #1595 of 1880 Old 05-02-2012, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
Good job. It would be informative to see the before and after calibration graphs. Also, some glasses have a polarized lens which affects the picture when the glasses are tilted, so it should work out better to try to attach the glasses horizontal to the screen rather than angled.
Unfortunately I didn't take before graphs. Attached in an Excel Spreadsheet are my results. Basically with 3d mode on, looking through the glasses there is very noticeable green tint. So my 3d calibration had a lot more red and a lot less green than 2d. When looking at grey windows, in 3d mode, without the glasses you can literally see the red tint with the naked eye. This is needed to compensate for green tint of the glasses. Then with the glasses on the grey looked grey like they're supposed to. Very cool. I watched Under the Sea 3d IMAX and when the sharks are swimming, with my 3d calibration you can see the accurate pinkish color near their mouth and the blue water looks blue as it should. Watching the same scene with the 2d calibratied settings the pinkish near the lips basically disappears and the water has a greenish tint to it. Its really nice to confirm with my own eyes that I'm getting very noticeable real world results. I have 2d in adv1 and 3d in adv1 and when watching content and switching back and forth you can really see the difference.

 

3dCalibrationSpreadsheetResults0501.zip 394.50390625k . file
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post #1596 of 1880 Old 05-02-2012, 08:05 PM
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OK, maybe I am a bit of a nOOb but which 3d kit do I need if I am using a Playstation 3 as my Blu Ray player through a Onkyo HT-RC260? Some of you have mention the tv communicating back to the devices to tell it which 3d to turn on, checker boarding, and I believe the Onkyo can but does the PS3? On a side note, some of you said something about getting bad interlacing issues, does it do it if your Home Theater Receiver is up-converting the signal to 1080p like some of the Onkyo's do? Mine was shipped with 13.05, should I upgrade to 13.06 or not?
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post #1597 of 1880 Old 05-03-2012, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jonny4 View Post

OK, maybe I am a bit of a nOOb but which 3d kit do I need if I am using a Playstation 3 as my Blu Ray player through a Onkyo HT-RC260? Some of you have mention the tv communicating back to the devices to tell it which 3d to turn on, checker boarding, and I believe the Onkyo can but does the PS3? On a side note, some of you said something about getting bad interlacing issues, does it do it if your Home Theater Receiver is up-converting the signal to 1080p like some of the Onkyo's do? Mine was shipped with 13.05, should I upgrade to 13.06 or not?

You DO NOT NEED A KIT. Just 3D Glasses and if they are IR or RF controlled you need matching emitter/transmitter (that is if you have a WD-73640 model).

The TV does not tell the source device which type of 3D to send, it tells the source device that it is a 3D TV and that means it can handle all of the "mandatory" types of 3D signals WITHOUT a kit.

Note: in Mitsubsihi verbage, a 3D Kit is the adatper kit that changes the "mandatory" types of 3D signal into checkerboard 3D. This kit is for older Mitsubsihi TVs. The current models do not need this kit.

For glasses you have a lot of options, any DLP Link glasses will work without an emitter. In the AVS 3D fourms you will find several brands of IR glasses with matching IR emitters listed (you do need to match the emitter to the glasses) and about 2 RF glasses with RF transmitters - all these listed emitters/transmitters can be plugged into the back of the TV.

My favorite is the Xpand brand X-103 - but others perfer other brands. Mitsubishi sells two versions of special "made for Mitsubishi TVs" X-103s. One package is the 3DG-EX103 which is one pair of glasses and comes with the matcing IR emitter (you only need one). The other package is the 3DG-X103 which is just one pair of glasses. If you go this route you need one 3DG-EX103 and as many 3DG-X103s as you need for your family. http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?...X103&FORM=HURE

If you get a model number that ends in 740 or 840 you only need the 3DG-X103 (glasses with out emitter) because the emitter is in the TV.
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post #1598 of 1880 Old 05-03-2012, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by GEP View Post

You DO NOT NEED A KIT. Just 3D Glasses and if they are IR or RF controlled you need matching emitter/transmitter (that is if you have a WD-73640 model).

The TV does not tell the source device which type of 3D to send, it tells the source device that it is a 3D TV and that means it can handle all of the "mandatory" types of 3D signals WITHOUT a kit.

Note: in Mitsubsihi verbage, a 3D Kit is the adatper kit that changes the "mandatory" types of 3D signal into checkerboard 3D. This kit is for older Mitsubsihi TVs. The current models do not need this kit.

For glasses you have a lot of options, any DLP Link glasses will work without an emitter. In the AVS 3D fourms you will find several brands of IR glasses with matching IR emitters listed (you do need to match the emitter to the glasses) and about 2 RF glasses with RF transmitters - all these listed emitters/transmitters can be plugged into the back of the TV.

My favorite is the Xpand brand X-103 - but others perfer other brands. Mitsubishi sells two versions of special "made for Mitsubishi TVs" X-103s. One package is the 3DG-EX103 which is one pair of glasses and comes with the matcing IR emitter (you only need one). The other package is the 3DG-X103 which is just one pair of glasses. If you go this route you need one 3DG-EX103 and as many 3DG-X103s as you need for your family. http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?...X103&FORM=HURE

If you get a model number that ends in 740 or 840 you only need the 3DG-X103 (glasses with out emitter) because the emitter is in the TV.

Thanks, I am having an issue, it keeps turning on my samsung blu ray player and changing the inputs on my receiver. I understand this is the hdmi cec function but is this function needed? Also, I will ask again, should I upgrade the firmware to 13.06 or leave it at 13.05, it seems some people have issues with 13.06.
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post #1599 of 1880 Old 05-04-2012, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonny4 View Post

Thanks, I am having an issue, it keeps turning on my samsung blu ray player and changing the inputs on my receiver. I understand this is the hdmi cec function but is this function needed? Also, I will ask again, should I upgrade the firmware to 13.06 or leave it at 13.05, it seems some people have issues with 13.06.

You do not need to use HDMI Control but if you do not, you need to turn it off in all products, not just one. In the TV it is call HDMI CEC, in Samsung Blu-ray players it is called Anynet+, I do not know the name used in your AV Receiver but the common name other than CEC is HDMI Control. It is in the TV Input menu and the HDMI setup menus of the other products.

As for update, most people feel the video performance improved with the software update. Most people are not having issues with the update or proceedure. A few people are but the majority of the reports here at AVS do not have problem with the new software. YOU CHOICE from here.
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post #1600 of 1880 Old 05-08-2012, 02:08 PM
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I ordered the Dell WD 73C11 from Dell last week when it popped up on slick deals again. I was replacing my old warhorse Sony 51" rear projection HDTV from about 8 years ago.

My TV has a manufacturers date of 02/2012 and had the 13.05 firmware already on it. I have not changed anything yet, to be honest this stuff on this thread is way over my head. I would end up making it look like crap.

So my tuner is 3d "certified" Denon AVR-1312, so what do I need to watch 3D (besides the content of course)? I can just buy regular DLP 3D glasses?

This thread is great. Here is a pic of the monster

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post #1601 of 1880 Old 05-08-2012, 03:34 PM
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I received my 640 today. I am blown away. So much better picture than I thought it would have. Question. Is there a setting that I have to enable the 120 HZ? Like on Sony it is called motion blur or something like that. Also does this system have an emitter already in it or do I need to buy an emitter for 3D.

Thanks and I am so happy to be in the DLP family.
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post #1602 of 1880 Old 05-08-2012, 03:59 PM
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"I ordered the Dell WD 73C11 from Dell last week when it popped up on slick deals again. I was replacing my old warhorse Sony 51" rear projection HDTV from about 8 years ago.

My TV has a manufacturers date of 02/2012 and had the 13.05 firmware already on it. I have not changed anything yet, to be honest this stuff on this thread is way over my head. I would end up making it look like crap.

So my tuner is 3d "certified" Denon AVR-1312, so what do I need to watch 3D (besides the content of course)? I can just buy regular DLP 3D glasses?"

You need a 3D source connected via HDMI. A 3D Blu-ray player not just a Blu-ray player. A 3D Cablebox (a cable box with software for 3D) or a 3D satellite receiver (one with software for 3D). In short the source device must be 3D capable as well.

"I received my 640 today. I am blown away. So much better picture than I thought it would have. Question. Is there a setting that I have to enable the 120 HZ? Like on Sony it is called motion blur or something like that. Also does this system have an emitter already in it or do I need to buy an emitter for 3D."

The DLP has 120Hz Sub-Frame rate, this is not the same thing as the 120Hz Frame Rate of LCD TVs. There is no ON/OFF feature to this, what happens is a single frame of video is divided into two sub-frames and then one sub-frame is displayed for 120th of a second (120Hz), this if followed by the second sub-frame of the original video frame for another 120th of a second. The display of each sub-frame for 120th of a second becomes one full frame of video every 60th of a second, so the full frame rate is 60Hz.

The TV does not interpolate (make up) any frames. The LCD and LED LCD TVs will interpolate (make up) new frames between the original frames, however the DLP TVs do not.

The 640 models have DLP Link which operates glasses marked DLP Link without an additional emitter. If you get IR or RF controlled glasses you need to add the emitter/transmitter to the VESA jack on the back of the TV.
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post #1603 of 1880 Old 05-08-2012, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beachnerds View Post

I received my 640 today. I am blown away. So much better picture than I thought it would have. Question. Is there a setting that I have to enable the 120 HZ? Like on Sony it is called motion blur or something like that. Also does this system have an emitter already in it or do I need to buy an emitter for 3D.

Thanks and I am so happy to be in the DLP family.

Recommend the Optoma ZD101 glasses DLP Link
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post #1604 of 1880 Old 05-09-2012, 04:38 AM
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Recommend the Optoma ZD101 glasses DLP Link

Seconded~!

Cool Beans.
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post #1605 of 1880 Old 05-09-2012, 10:12 PM
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Thanks for the info. So DLP Link with no emitter. Gotta get those ordered. Can't wait to see the 3D of this TV.
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post #1606 of 1880 Old 05-14-2012, 07:11 PM
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Not sure if anyone has made any progress looking into that motion blur issue after the 13.06 update. Sporting events are the worst. Watching the NBA playoffs is painfuL! I have also noticed this more on SD.

I did not see this on 13.03 or 13.05.
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post #1607 of 1880 Old 05-15-2012, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by vandrooo View Post

Not sure if anyone has made any progress looking into that motion blur issue after the 13.06 update. Sporting events are the worst. Watching the NBA playoffs is painfuL! I have also noticed this more on SD.

I did not see this on 13.03 or 13.05.

If you are referring to the bad interlacing / de-interlacing like the example pictures i posted earlier from 60 minutes I can only say I have seen this since I bought the set, before current FW.

You should probably ask TTHOWL in the other thread that was started.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1397654
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post #1608 of 1880 Old 05-16-2012, 07:00 AM
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Hello all..

This is a question that might have been brought up before im not sure been reading the post but cant find.
I have the 73640 F/W 13.05 and 13.06 is the new version but i can unzip the folder it says its a UVT file and cant be unziped .. I followed the instructions to the tee..

Is it even worth upgrading or should i just leave the F/W alone

Thanks Evan
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post #1609 of 1880 Old 05-16-2012, 09:27 AM
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You DO NOT un-zip the UZT file. You DO NOT un-zip anything in the Zip folder. You "Extract" the contents of the Zip folder to your USB stick. The Extract function is a button in the tool bar at the top of the Zip Folder window.

Both files in the Zip folder need to be on the USB stick. Then you unplug the TV, insert the USB stick, plug the TV back in. If sucessful the TV will flash for approximatly 3 - 5 minutes and then turn on automatically with a message confirming the update. Then remove the stick, turn off the TV and plug the TV for about 1 minute and then plug it back in.

Some people here have not been successful but most have. Just make sure your USB stick is of minimum size and formated to FAT format. Also it is best not to have other files on the stick.
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post #1610 of 1880 Old 05-16-2012, 10:34 AM
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UZT ? It says V45_13_06.utv
And sorry i ment Extract when i said unzip ..
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post #1611 of 1880 Old 05-16-2012, 10:42 AM
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I extracted to the usb drive and this is what is in the USB now
v45_13_06.UTV ---- UTV File 29.5 MB
mdea_update ----- Text Doc 13 bytes

If this looks right i will proceed and run the update.. Thank you for the help
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post #1612 of 1880 Old 05-16-2012, 12:54 PM
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Looks good, go for it.
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post #1613 of 1880 Old 05-16-2012, 05:34 PM
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Got home and turned on my TV .. Watching Hockey and lines formed light at first and a few min later there are lines vertical across the whole screen ????

I did not do a thing .. i had not even updated the TV ..I turned it off and pulled the plug , updated to 13.06 and when done pluged back in ,, Lines still there ,, I have had the TV for only a week >> What the hell ?? Any idea what is wrong ?
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post #1614 of 1880 Old 05-16-2012, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stangmaster98 View Post

Got home and turned on my TV .. Watching Hockey and lines formed light at first and a few min later there are lines vertical across the whole screen ????

I did not do a thing .. i had not even updated the TV ..I turned it off and pulled the plug , updated to 13.06 and when done pluged back in ,, Lines still there ,, I have had the TV for only a week >> What the hell ?? Any idea what is wrong ?

Make sure your hdmi cables are seated well, unplug and plug!
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post #1615 of 1880 Old 05-17-2012, 05:38 AM
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TV has nothing pluged in but the code to the wall outlet and lines are there .. even with menu up .. going to call Mitsu service
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post #1616 of 1880 Old 05-17-2012, 09:58 AM
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So just an update if this happens to anyone.

Most likely during shipping and no fault of the TV the DLP chip can get dislodged and cause the screen to show white lines running up and down the screen about an inch apart and inch wide. Mitsu does not want to take a chance of something else being messed up so the tech is ordering the whole light assembly and will be installed next week. I hope all goes well ...
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post #1617 of 1880 Old 05-20-2012, 06:21 AM
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V13.06 Update:

It's been a couple months.... I'm happy with this version...

Have seen the reports of motion blur, and, looking at OTA, the only thing I'm seeing is transcoding artifacts when transcoding 720p into 1080i.

At work, I routinely do transcoding, and what I'm seeing on the 73640 is not any worse that what I see on broadcast gear... doing same thing.... (Actually it's easier to transcode 1080 to 720 than the other way around... My older Mits 62525 did a better visual transcode to it's native 720P that our current 73640 does on 720 to 1080, which isn't a bang against Mits, it's just that it's harder to cross-convert Up than cross-convert Down.... Even broadcast gear has this problem...).

One last comment, though I don't have any way of comparing or testing it..... Our 73640 is 1080p, so even 1080i will be transcoded... I have no work experience with that format -- 1080P, because it is not a broadcast format, just a display format.
There will obviously be a transcode to display 1080i on a 1080P display... Other than Known Test Signals (Such as Moving Zone Plate) I know of no way to test this.... But our DLP does not have an HDSDI Input, so any step I try (And I have created a BluRay H.264 @40Mb/sec to test this).... But, even my Highest bandwidth test involved multiple transcodes: (HDSDI to format for editing: Apple ProRes, Avid 145/220, Various Quicktime or other formats), and still another to BR format (MPEG2 or H.264)....... So my best BR disk is even suspect.

So, we're left with a 19Mb stream for OTA, or a 40Mb stream for BR.... That contains what started out life from a live camera at 2Gb/sec data, and that may have been compressed at one point or another to 260Mb/sec in an ASI stream somewhere along the way..... From the remote to the Uplink, to the Downlink, to the TV Station, through Framesync and processing gear, back through MPEG Encoders, to transmitter to our OTA antenna and DLP Tuner....

Toss in a compression or two via cable/satelite company.... And we are trying to determine Motion Blur without a HDSDI input and HDSDI Test Signal Generators ??????????????????
You should see what Moving Zone Plate test signal does to gear!!!

All we are left with is our eyes..... We were shown something by thhowl, who had the determination to report it and see it getting fixed.
Thank you, thhowl!!!

There may be other artifacts... There Probably Are!!! (Just like there are artifacts in Broadcast gear)

Hopefully Mits has learned from thhowl, and will have the expertise to improve on their products...

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post #1618 of 1880 Old 05-20-2012, 07:06 PM
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Jan J,

Wanted to say thank you for that excellent post. I noticed on cable tv and that was my one gripe. I think a few of us got a little more than picky at what we were seeing after that error THHOWL found and started looking for every little thing I could find. As a reminder of how great this TV is, I threw Transformers: Dark of the Moon 3D in, turned on the 7.1 surround, set TV to Bright, and just remembered why I love this TV. Pure Movie Bliss!

It is just time to enjoy it! (Well, after I had them come out and tighten the screen that had the spindle looking thing pointing out of the center of it.)

Cool Beans.
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post #1619 of 1880 Old 05-21-2012, 03:14 AM
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I think the interlacing / deinterlacing / scaling issue does have something to do with the set. I never saw anything like this on my previous set. Having said that it is of minor to no concern to me. The set looks great with the vast majority of material and I have far more important things in life to be concerned with.
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post #1620 of 1880 Old 05-21-2012, 10:25 AM
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Was you previous set 720P or 1080i? I'll bet it was.....
My old 62525 Mits DLP had less artifacts with 480i & 1080i because it's easier to cross-convert Down that cross-convert Up. If there was a way of dealing with HDSDI, and you spent $$$ for a Broadcast quality framesync with cross conversion.... You'd still have artifacts....

It is easier to cross convert to 720P than 1080i because there are more pixels in 1080i, the more pixels, the greater the spread of data across these pixels, and therefore, the more artifacts can creep in from MPEG noise and other mixes....... Conversely, down conversion creates mix products that exceed the bandwidth of the output stream, and therefore 'fall into the bit bucket'...

There is HF detail in all video... Normally this is not seen due to the bandwidth limitations of the format... In Generalized terms, you up-convert, you increase bandwidth, and down-convert, you reduce bandwidth.... That's why down-converted signals (done right) have less artifacts, because the one's that sneak through exceed the bandwidth of the equipment... and therefore are not seen....
But up-convert... Bandwidth increases... and so does artifact recognition... That's why Up-converting is harder to do... you have to use more hardware to keep artifacts to a minimum...

Moving Zone Plate is a test for this.... you'll get echo's of the circles in various places, depending on mix products beating against the theoretical limit of bandwidth for the signal.... (sum, difference, and two origionals) but the math here is pretty intense....



Quote:
Originally Posted by Empirical View Post

I think the interlacing / deinterlacing / scaling issue does have something to do with the set. I never saw anything like this on my previous set. Having said that it is of minor to no concern to me. The set looks great with the vast majority of material and I have far more important things in life to be concerned with.


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