Why the hatred for DLP? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 04:03 PM
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Wow. Seriously?
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post #62 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 04:10 PM
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I have a good friend that calibrates video and audio for a living. Also, this is well worth the investment to get this done correctly.

The last time he came over he calibrated my new plasma and the toshiba dlp that i have that i put a new bulb in he told me the biggest drawback to the dlp rptv's and PJ's is that because the light output differs significantly with time the picture will change significantly with time.

It was mentioned above that yes you can replace the bulb and clean the mirrors and you get the "New" picture back, but that lamp assembly is expensive (Way overpriced) and everyone this is done you have to re-calibrate again. With the plasma, you set it and forget it. I still really enjoy the dlp tv and with ,ost common viewing I do not notice any picture difference, but when I replaced the lamp, cleaned the mirrors and re-calibrated I realized what I had been missing.
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post #63 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

Wow. Seriously?

No. Not at all. There are much more important things than our opinions on TVs.

The OP was "Why the hate". I think it is utterly silly and humorous that people "hate" an inanimate object (DLP), and just have to post about it.

"The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"-Tibetan Proverb
 
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post #64 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by btinindy View Post

I have a good friend that calibrates video and audio for a living. Also, this is well worth the investment to get this done correctly.

The last time he came over he calibrated my new plasma and the toshiba dlp that i have that i put a new bulb in he told me the biggest drawback to the dlp rptv's and PJ's is that because the light output differs significantly with time the picture will change significantly with time.

On paper, the calibration will change over time, but not significantly and it still remains within the optimum limits, at least on my DLP. I used to recalibrate every six months, but found that if I calibrate at 2500 hours, the calibration remains quite good throughout the life span of a lamp, and works with replacement lamps as well. Anything under 5 is considered a good deltaE. My TV calibrates to a deltaE under 2, and never gets around 5 except in the first or last 200 hours of use.

In short, the TV looks great with a new lamp installation, and only gets better through time until the middle of the lamp life, and when it finally begins to become noticeably less great, it is time to replace the lamp anyway.
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It was mentioned above that yes you can replace the bulb and clean the mirrors and you get the "New" picture back, but that lamp assembly is expensive (Way overpriced) and everyone this is done you have to re-calibrate again....

The lamp is $99, and as I stated, no recalibration is really necessary. As for plasmas, they fade and change over time, and there is nothing one can do about it, as there is no lamp or other component that can be changed.

"The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"-Tibetan Proverb
 
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post #65 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

Lots of people are happy to sacrifice a bit of picture quality (and even that's arguable when comparing DLP to a decent plasma) and cash for a thinner TV that looks much, much better sitting in a living room.

Most people don't know the difference in a proper pic and bad pic. I've hung plenty of wall mount sets, each and every time they look stupid. Then when it comes time to figure out what to do with their center and other components I say "You know you could have just got a stand and be done". But I don't tell them that until I have the walls torn up and the set hung...I've made my money from their stupidity and self image problem.
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post #66 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 04:45 PM
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When it all ultimately comes down to the way we see things, there is no way to
definitively pass judgment on displays.

So all we can do is give our impressions, which the fellow who doesn't like DLPs has done. That's his opinion, and he's entitled to it.

My impression of DLP (and I hope for a three chip RPTV) is completely different than his impression.

Projection TVs, including RPTVs are for me far more pleasurable than any flat panel I have seen. I remember when I was strolling around Paul's, and though there were many flat panels that looked sharp like big computer monitors all of them paled next to the Mits 73838 that I kept coming back to. It was sharp, brilliant in color, and easy on the eyes. As far as RPTVs looking archaic in some way, that is something that I simply do not see. A properly set up set looks sensational to many.

Are there problems, like geometry and screen sag? Sure, but Plasmas and LCDs start to dim from day one, and each type of display produces its own artifacts, and has its own compromises.

As I said, I can watch RPTV comfortably for hours with no eye fatigue. Most flat panels make me feel like I'm sitting in front of my computer for hours. I obviously prefer the former.

So, there is no way the gentleman who dislikes DLP can prove that DLPs are bad, and he cannot sway those whose eyes tell them differently.

And it is a waste of time to try to convince him otherwise. So the best I can add is that I hope he purchases a display that makes him happy, and that he extends the same graciousness to those who prefer other displays.
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post #67 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

So, there is no way the gentleman who dislikes DLP can prove that DLPs are bad, and he cannot sway those whose eyes tell them differently.

And it is a waste of time to try to convince him otherwise. So the best I can add is that I hope he purchases a display that makes him happy, and that he extends the same graciousness to those who prefer other displays.

I never said DLPs are bad and I am not trying to convince anyone of anything.

I am trying to explain some of the reasons that many people, myself included, do not like DLPs. I can understand why people like them. The people in this thread appear completely unable to comprehend why someone else doesn't like them.
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post #68 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colour View Post

Most people don't know the difference in a proper pic and bad pic. I've hung plenty of wall mount sets, each and every time they look stupid. Then when it comes time to figure out what to do with their center and other components I say "You know you could have just got a stand and be done". But I don't tell them that until I have the walls torn up and the set hung...I've made my money from their stupidity and self image problem.

I went to re- hook up my brothers Pioneer plasma's in house he's staying in , and low and be hold the infamous burned in shadows of the 4:3 bars on the sides on an otherwise great display. My Pioneer rptv had these as well and not having to worry about these is fantastic. I find them very distracting, on light scenes. As for wall mounting I'm not a fan as my sub and mains can cause some serious vibrations and less is more in that regard, I have 17 to 21 inch deep components and with speakers 3 feet out in to the room ascetically a stand works better for me. I find the gear I have pleasing to look at and I don't want to tuck away in a closet. If this where a dedicated (Front projector) space and the gear chosen for that purpose it would not be seen. But my space is 2 channel, multi and screening room all in one space, and has been pulled off sucessfully partly because of DLP!
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post #69 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

Some of these are facts, some of them are opinions. They represent the answer to your question.

Now tell me: did you start this thread because you wanted an answer to your question, or because you wanted to defend your choice of TV?

I started this thread to find out why there is almost a visceral hate for DLPs. Of course the thread was started in the RPT forum so as to not get attacked by the anti-DLP people. I am open to discourse about DLPs but I will call out false information. When I was visiting the Plasma and LCD forum, some people were slamming DLP's like they were the worst TV technology in the world. Of course bogus claims, fictious rumors and the like would arise about DLP's. I never posted on those forums because I did not want to start a fight.

Everyone has the freedom to choose to buy whatever TV they want to. Here is where I have a problem:

This is a A/V forum were we come to get educated and discuss A/V products. We learn tech, tips and other educational info about A/V products. When it comes to DLP's, that logic and eduction seems to go "out the window" and emotions and false information takes over. When discussing DLP's in the Plasma and LCD areas, one can check their brain at the door because logic and facts are not used in the discussion.


In the world of logic each TV design has it's place; plasma, LCD, DLP, CRT. Yet for some reason DLP is unfairly labeled as the "leper" of TV's and not given its due.

As far as my decision, I own both, LCD's & DLP. For home theater use, my DLP was the wise decision because I needed a 65"+ TV to have ideal viewing. I can buy a 73" DLP for $1,200 that will a phenomenal picture or do I spend $3,000+ on a Plasma or LCD? I can buy 3 DLPs for the price of 1 plasma or LCD. I went with the DLP because of price and substance. It is the best bang for buck in big screens out there. There is no debating that. One can have a 82" DLP for $2,000, good luck finding an 80" plasma or LCD that will not cost you $10k or more.
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post #70 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 05:15 PM
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Wow.

There seems to be no possible way to communicate to the OP that some people have actual reasons for not liking DLP.

I have tried my honest best to explain what some of those reasons are, and I have failed miserably. I am out of this thread.
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post #71 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

Wow.

There seems to be no possible way to communicate to the OP that some people have actual reasons for not liking DLP.

I have tried my honest best to explain what some of those reasons are, and I have failed miserably. I am out of this thread.

Finally got it The post was in the rptv forum for dlp tv owners who prefer them and why others don't! Qualifier being must love and own dlp's
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post #72 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

Wow.

There seems to be no possible way to communicate to the OP that some people have actual reasons for not liking DLP.

I have tried my honest best to explain what some of those reasons are, and I have failed miserably. I am out of this thread.

You missed the point and you actually contributed to my stance. I said from the go that each TV design has its strengths and weaknesses but I don't "hate" or "dislike" either one of them. I own a LCD and would even consider a plasma for a smaller room that needed a wall mounted flat screen.

Yet when it comes to DLP, it's argued by people that the DLP has no place in the TV marketplace. When you stated that the DLPs are ugly and not modern looking, that was completely ridiculous and I proved that the DLP is far from being ugly and not modern looking.
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post #73 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 05:48 PM
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You would think that by stating that there is a subjective component to how we view displays, that this accepts the possibility that some will dislike DLPs...no harm, no foul, no judgment. So the statement that no one can accept the contention that DLP is unattractive to some is untrue. I think this forum does exist to help inform people, and that hopefully we can do that without contentiousness.

Each to their own.
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post #74 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 06:00 PM
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I have a 4 year old 56" LED backlit DLP. Haven't had a single problem with it yet. I also have a 46" LED LCD television but I mainly use the former not just because of the size difference but because the video is more cinematic like in my humble opinion.
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post #75 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 06:38 PM
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After spending the time with each of the three mentioned display's. they all have a role to play. I just glad I'm not limited in my choices as I can buy what I want with my dollar. I use an lcd in the bedroom and it has performed the task admirably, if I hated it I wouldn't have bought it. When I wanted a display I could lose myself in while watching a movie. I'm glad dlp's are still around to get the job done and it does so admirably as well. I don't compare the 3, as long as they do there job and give me viewing pleasure mission accomplished.
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post #76 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 07:31 PM
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This thread is not bad, compared to the 3D haters in the 3D threads.

"The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"-Tibetan Proverb
 
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post #77 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

This thread is not bad, compared to the 3D haters in the 3D threads.

Good point. Next to DLP haters, 3D haters are in 2nd place. Seriously, those anti-3D people, they do get viscous. Weird on how one person thinks its the best new invention while another thinks its a pile of garbage.

I find it especially amusing when comments like this are made:

"I'm completely uninterested in 3DTVs until there's no glasses involved and it doesn't cost any extra."

I equate that to the following:

I would also like to drive in the direct sunlight without having to wear sunglasses. I would love to buy a car that has the acceleration of a Ferrari but doesn't cost any extra.
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post #78 of 378 Old 09-07-2011, 10:54 PM
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I would not be surprised if almost everyone posting here who currently owns DLP also own LED, LCD or Plasma. If you are like me you some of evertyhing. I confess I only have one plasma a 4 year old 58" Panny Plasma. In some way I like it, in other ways I can't stand. Many of its drawbacks are due to the technology of the day. It is only 720P.. not a killer problem, but it does overscan at 1280x720 from the connected PC so I had to resize the desktop and use even less pixels..

1080P plasma was just starting to appear when I bought the set and the bigger 1080P sets were seriously expensive then . I hate how much power the plasma draws, and how much heat it puts out. I hate the limited controls Panasonic provided. It got one heck of good price at the time and except for the dirty look you get from the screen door effect when too close it is ok picture wise, not great but it has a certain charm.

It has one other major problem even though it is a native 1366*768 panel but it will not take native panel resolution as input. Panny's mpeg decoders suck and ATSC showing fast motion macroblocks like crazy. A top of line current Panny Plasma would be a different experience. I guess I should hate plasmas becasue I spent $2k plus on a display that ulitmately ended up being disappointing.. The comparable model bought two year later would have had virtually none of the problem this one does. Yeah it would still be a blast furnace but the rest issues would have been gone. It was my money my choice, ultimately it is does not get much use. I don't hate plasma over it. Instead I chalk it up to experience. You know experience is what you get when you don't get what you want.

I like LCDs for computer displays. I have a 37 Panny LED at this desktop. I will go 40 or 42 next time. I have the room on my desk. I really like the low power consumption of the Panny IPS panels. This years 42" which my brother has and paid less for than this 2010 37" IPS has much better blacks. Panny's still suck with macroblocking from mpeg artifacts. Forutnately they have an mpeg noise reduction filter. I use the filter when the content requires it. Not counting notebooks, I have 2 DLP in the house, the plasma and one LCD and one LED. You can't say I am a technology bigot. You do have to do your homework and most of the displays have real problems that are not easily solved.. you just have to wait a couple of years and get a newer one. It will solve many problem and introduce new ones. There is no perfect display and no perfect display technology. There are plenty of fan boys around, and plent of haters. I guess their back and forth is what keeps these forums busy.

I tried to use both LG and Vizio LEDs on my desk before I bought the Panny. The Vizio and LGs would not sync to the HDMI port of the Atom Ion I had at the desk at the time. They literally would not work. The LG had a lovely set of controls for calibration.. sadly it used a lot of power too.

Whatever you buy will have more than a few niggles.. I think in the end the thing that bugs me most about DLP now that I use computer based sources exclusively and do run any CE devices is the lack of instant on and off that lamp cooling dictates. If I had to choose a second dislike it is overscan although with my Video Processor overscan is competely manageable. Those are minor niggles. The $99 lamp is not a big deal and the calibrations hold better than a previous post suggested. Offer me a 92" LED for $4500 that has good blacks, a good Color Management system and only uses 200 watts, I will be right over and will have forgot about ever owning DLP. That might happen about 2018... more likely never. So DLP looks like it will still be my big display technology for some years to come.

Interesting how the smooth look of the DLP rear projection one poster finds ugly and archaic looking. I on the other hand find you really can watch it for hours and hours without eye fatigue. Not somehting I can say about LED/LCD even though that is what is on my desk. In fact my eyes are starting to hurt looking at the this pretty decent LED.. goodnight folks!

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post #79 of 378 Old 09-08-2011, 06:43 AM
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Folks:
My name is mnilan and I own a DLP.

Actually, I've owned two - one of the first Samsung DLPs (a 2003 50" HLM) and a Samsung LED DLP (a 2007 61"). The first is in my brother-in-law's place, still looks as good as the day it was delivered and is on its third bulb in eight years. There have been no other repairs on it. The second is in my media room and has no moving parts, no bulbs to replace and is still quite beautiful and has never required any service whatsoever. Many LCD and Plasma owners who have seen my 61" LED DLP have lots of questions and admire it (perhaps they're just being polite)...

My second point is that most of the owners of ANY TV are not here on AVSForum and most of the people here are either geeks (like me 8^) and have their own "favorite" tech, or are here BECAUSE they have no experience - they are here to learn about the various flavors of tech, or (finally) because they have a problem with their tech and are here for help. The forum posts over-emphasize problems/ issues with all tech while the vast majority of HDTV owners in the world are quite happy with their choices and don't bother to come here to complain because they aren't geeks and have better things to do with their lives. So using the AVSForum postings as "data" to rate comparisons between different techs is somewhat futile.

By the way, I also have LCD and plasma (of the two, I greatly prefer the plasma) and they are each nice in their own ways, for different viewing situations. However, when I sit back and watch a movie with my sweetie, that 61" DLP is great. Everyone who has sat in that room has been thoroughly entertained (and, for me, THAT is the purpose of all this anyway).

I must confess that I dislike "what's your favorite _______ (fill-in the blank)?" questions because my honest answer to those questions is always that it depends on the situation. The worst is "who's your favorite musician?" What nonsense! When my wife bakes a blueberry pie, my favorite pie is blueberry and I am not being condescending (she makes great pies 8^). But a week later when she bakes me an apple pie, it is truly my favorite pie. I'm not sure why we insist on playing "king of the (tech) mountain" but clearly we do which is a shame (on us) because we are influencing others whose situation (including financial) would be best served by a tech OTHER THAN our own favorite.

Sigh...

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post #80 of 378 Old 09-08-2011, 07:41 AM
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I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned rainbows, my main reason for not considering a DLP when I bought my first HDTV (I don't know if I'm more sensitive to them than most people, but they drive me crazy). Does that mean the rainbow problem has been solved?
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post #81 of 378 Old 09-08-2011, 08:02 AM
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My understanding is that the rainbows were a result of the color wheel but I was never saw them and my LED DLP has red, green and blue LEDs so there are no rainbows on it. I do not know about the current Mitsubishi sets - they may have solved it... One of the Mitsubishi owners who can see rainbows will have to chime in.

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post #82 of 378 Old 09-08-2011, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnilan View Post
My understanding is that the rainbows were a result of the color wheel but I was never saw them and my LED DLP has red, green and blue LEDs so there are no rainbows on it. I do not know about the current Mitsubishi sets - they may have solved it... One of the Mitsubishi owners who can see rainbows will have to chime in.
The rainbow effect derives from the single chip (DMD) design of current RPTV DLPs. With only one chip, the DMD is incapable of projecting the colors R-G-B all at once, so it does it sequentially. The brain fuses them into one image. The color wheel potentially heightens the effect somewhat (though newer designs of the wheel are better in this regard), whereas LEDs and Lasers diminish the effect somewhat. Still, some will never see the rainbows no matter which method is used, and some will see rainbows with all three designs.

Some of us fervently hope that Mits will produce a three chip DLP RPTV!
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post #83 of 378 Old 09-08-2011, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnilan View Post
-snip-

I'm not sure why we insist on playing "king of the (tech) mountain" but clearly we do which is a shame (on us) because we are influencing others whose situation (including financial) would be best served by a tech OTHER THAN our own favorite.

Sigh...
That would be the mature approach of things, yes. Many tech debates I've seen, here or elsewhere, seem to boil down to "X is the bestest evar!" while ignoring the fact that say while a hammer is good as pounding nails it makes a crappy screwdriver or level. Things would be much more productive viewing each as a tool with their own distinct uses, strengths, and drawbacks and should be compared appropriately. After looking over things on a number of forums and elsewhere, here is how I see it:

*LED-LCD seems good for thin, lightweight and power efficient displays that require almost no maintenance in exchange for image and color quality.

*Plasma seems better for image and color quality in exchange for a thicker, heavier and more power hungry display that requires a little more care beyond "click it and forget it".

*DLP-RP seems to offer potentially even better image quality then the above two and all else being equal at much cheaper prices per inch of screen area even with bulb costs factored in. However in exchange they are more bulky, a touch more temperamental, and require much more knowledgeable care from their uses to get the best out of them.

*CRT-RP seems, all else being equal to still offer image quality on par with more modern sets and even after restoration and calibration bargain basement prices with the whole shebang costing less then some of the newer displays do straight out of their crate. The downsides being weight, bulk, a shrinking knowledge pool due to being 'old' and the fact they are much more demanding in terms of general care and upkeep of their owners; regular optics cleaning being a prime example. Not to mention they tend to be harder to find now.

Now which display is the 'best' among those I listed? Well that comes down to four questions anyone should be asking themselves about any technological purchase and what the answers are for their specific situation.

1. What is my primary need that this device must satisfy?
(Low cost, ease of maintenance, picture quality, size, bulk etc.)

2. How do I plan on using this device and under what conditions?
("Sun filled frontroom" or "personal theater room")

3. How hands on and/or knowledgeable am I willing to be with this devices operation and upkeep?
("Click it and forget it" to "I disassemble lens packs blindfolded for fun")

4. How much am I willing to spend to satisfy the above three requirements?
("Whatever loose change is between the couch cushions" to "Budget? What Budget?")

As an example for my current situation I've settled on the following:

1. What is my primary need that this device must satisfy?
Answer: Picture quality followed closely by size, within reason.

2. How do I plan on using this device and under what conditions?
Answer: Frontroom conditions with strong light control.

3. How hands on and/or knowledgeable am I willing to be with this devices operation and upkeep?
Answer: I like to tinker and have an inquisitive mind, thus I won't mind getting elbow deep in its guts if required.

4. How much am I willing to spend to satisfy the above three requirements?
Answer: As cheap as I can get it due to working two part-time low paying jobs and looking to return to higher learning next year.

Based on the above three answers I've decided to peruse the type of sets in this order:

CRT-RP (Pioneer Elite Pro 610) > DLP (Mitsubishi WD60738) > Plasma (Panasonic 50" or 42" ST30) > LCD (Sony KDL-EX720)

Do I expect this to fit for anyone else? Not really, in fact I fully expect others to try tearing it apart for "why you put them in the wrong order" etc. Of course there is a fine line with that between legitimate criticism and "I don't like that so you shouldn't either" and sometimes its very hard to tell which is which. What one person sees as best for a given set of answers another may utterly disagree with even if they answered the above three questions the exact same way. Of course the real problem with such things, as it is elsewhere in life, is that some get so attached to what they view as the 'correct' choices they refuse to accept that others may choose differently then them or to even look at why others decided on what they did. After all if its wrong why bother examining it at all as its best to just try 'educating' those who are 'misguided', right?
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post #84 of 378 Old 09-08-2011, 05:01 PM
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Rainbows
For me, the 720P sets showed the rainbows much more than either of my 1080P sets.
That being said, it is rare for me to see them with the 1080P set. Usually if I do it is on an old black and white movie broadcast in 480i and poor at that.
ONE of the few HD movies I will notice any is Sin City with that high contrast black and white. And even then, ONLY if I move my sight to the side quickly - I'll notice a trailing rainbow.

Like I said though, for me the 1080P sets decreased the rainbows by probably 99%.
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post #85 of 378 Old 09-08-2011, 08:47 PM
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Some people are very sensitive to rainbows. Some people never see them unitl they are pointed out to them. I never saw them until I was taught how to force yourself to see them. Some people can learn to not see them.

They were much more pronounced on the earlier displays.. For the vast majority of people they don't exist and are not a problem, for some it will be completely intolerable.

And yes, color wheels based systems tend to show the issue more then LED. The speed and number of color segments seems to have some correlation with fewer segments and lower wheels speed exacerabating the problem. I haven't seen them in years unless I create an artificial situation like the THX White circle on black screen and turn my head left and right rapidly. In the real world never.

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post #86 of 378 Old 09-09-2011, 04:34 AM
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I was aware of "rainbows" before I bought my first DLP in 2005, I did see them, mostly because I was looking for them. Blinking my eyes, twisting my head back and forth etc.
After a month or so I stopped looking for them and just watched the program.

After a year or so, I found it hard to see them anymore.

Abundant OTA television is what makes this country different from all others. Lets keep it this way.
The Internet is no place for streaming video.
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post #87 of 378 Old 09-09-2011, 09:46 AM
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taichi4 and gtgray:
Thanks for the clarification on the rainbow issue.

mnilan
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post #88 of 378 Old 09-09-2011, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnilan View Post

taichi4 and gtgray:
Thanks for the clarification on the rainbow issue.

You're welcome.
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post #89 of 378 Old 09-10-2011, 05:57 PM
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jonnythan, I have a ten year old Pioneer Elite Pro-620 HDTV that has no DVI or HDMI connections is 1080i only and my HD sources (HD-DVD, Bluray and Sat) are all fed via component and after calibration the PQ using HD sources blows my Samsung 720p 42" out of the water. I think the Sammy has a gorgeous picture, but when comparing the older Pioneer with the newer Samsung, The Pioneer wins hands down everytime.
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post #90 of 378 Old 09-10-2011, 08:50 PM
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Why is that directed at me?
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