Why the hatred for DLP? - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 381 Old 12-20-2011, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

Well you might be a freak but it has nothing to do with incandescent bulbs flickering.

LOL I like that, you made my night Jonny, thanks.

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At 60 Hz, the filament stays at a pretty much constant temperature and does not flicker.

Well then, I'll just have to remind myself that it's not possible the next time I notice it again.

Do a quick Google search and you'll see that there is actually a lot of debate on the subject. Some swear that they can see it sometimes. There are electrical engineers on both sides of the line (pun intended).

Anyway, I came up with something tonight that might also help others who are also sensitive to RBE.

About ten minutes into the Terminator BD I had hit the stop button due to almost constant perceived rainbows.

Then I decided to start the movie over from the beginning just to see if the color distortions would be better or worse. To my amazement things looked a little better!

Every time RBE was noticed, I would simply replay that same scene repeatedly until it looked completely right.

The method totally worked for me. I was actually able to view the second half of the movie almost completely RBE free.

It must be a matter of retraining one's visual perception in order to finally see things right. Just had to give it some time and patience, then it finally clicked.
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post #242 of 381 Old 12-30-2011, 06:17 AM
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My 61" Samsung LED source DLP does not use a color wheel and I've never seen the rainbow effect. On occasion I would get something vaguely similar to it with my old 47" Panasonic if LD was the source and there was a surface pattern like plaid or lines in a scene. But it was a fleeting moment of rainbow in an isolated area that disappeared almost immediately.
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post #243 of 381 Old 01-01-2012, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by phaelon56 View Post

On occasion I would get something vaguely similar to it with my old 47" Panasonic if LD was the source and there was a surface pattern like plaid or lines in a scene. But it was a fleeting moment of rainbow in an isolated area that disappeared almost immediately.

What you're describing there is composite video "dot crawl". I remember it mostly from the good old days of VHS, Beta, LD, early DVD players, and classic video game consoles.

It's an annoying aberration, but nowhere near as bad as experiencing RBE.

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My 61" Samsung LED source DLP does not use a color wheel and I've never seen the rainbow effect.

Are you an HL61A750 owner as well? Despite the ultra fast LED pulsing I saw them horribly for the first week. I actually saw them constantly on screen while viewing several movies.

For example: Could you imagine the dark grey wheels and treads of a tank constantly smeared; with alternating R/G/B splotches and outlines as it pans across your screen? How about random R/G/B ghosting of actors' faces and clothing? Yes, it was initially _that_ bad for me! Quite literally visual torture.

After that initial week of "the optical inquisition", my brain spontaneously adjusted and learned how to view the sequential color imaging scheme properly. I still see rainbows occasionally as quick R/G/B color flashes around faces in very dark scenes or R/G/B color trailing behind fast moving bright objects.

Curiously, I no longer get eyestrain or headaches when I happen to detect them. It's just not a big deal anymore.

Glad I stuck it through though, really love this TV now.
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post #244 of 381 Old 01-30-2012, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KewlK View Post

I'm just not always being fooled by the continuous overlapping of the component colors. I can normally see the 60Hz flicker of incandescent light bulbs and see between the interlaced scan lines on CRTS. So I suppose I'm just a freak.

Maybe there is a way to crank up the LED pulsing rate somewhere within the service menu? I highly doubt it though.

I don't doubt that you may be perceiving *something* but you're off on what you think it is.

I assure you that you are not seeing 60Hz flicker in incandescent bulbs. It's simply not possible with the human eye.
Now, perhaps you're seeing some color shift or standing waves caused by something else... but you're not seeing a 60Hz flicker.
That just isn't how incandescent light, and human eyes work....

EDIT: As for RBE, it's certainly not what you're experiencing if the three-chip primary sets like the laservue still cause you problems.
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post #245 of 381 Old 01-30-2012, 09:54 AM
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I currently own a HLT56S76XXA Samsung DLP; up until about two months ago it had exceptional picture quality. My problem with the DLP is not with the replacing of the bulb, but with the replacing of any other part. Not only is it costly, but also a pain to acquire. Samsung has had an on going problem with white dots showing up on their DLP's for some time now; which is caused by the DMD board going bad. It's probably one of the reasons Samsung doesn't make DLP's anymore; that and maybe cost. Samsung will not fix it as its outside its warranty, so I have to call in a TV repair man. It has a quote of $550 to get it fixed. Needless to say, I just saved that money and I'm now going to purchase another television, probably Plasma. I do not hate DLP's, but I definitely will not purchase one again.
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post #246 of 381 Old 01-30-2012, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dd3kv2 View Post

I currently own a HLT56S76XXA Samsung DLP; up until about two months ago it had exceptional picture quality. My problem with the DLP is not with the replacing of the bulb, but with the replacing of any other part. Not only is it costly, but also a pain to acquire. Samsung has had an on going problem with white dots showing up on their DLP's for some time now; which is caused by the DMD board going bad. It's probably one of the reasons Samsung doesn't make DLP's anymore; that and maybe cost. Samsung will not fix it as its outside its warranty, so I have to call in a TV repair man. It has a quote of $550 to get it fixed. Needless to say, I just saved that money and I'm now going to purchase another television, probably Plasma. I do not hate DLP's, but I definitely will not purchase one again.

I've replaced many power boards on LCD/Plasma sets and they're no easier to obtain than DLP parts.
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post #247 of 381 Old 01-30-2012, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by MKaram View Post

I've replaced many power boards on LCD/Plasma sets and they're no easier to obtain than DLP parts.

I don't doubt that at all... from what I have been told about HDTV's it's better just to buy a new one then to invest in fixing it.
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post #248 of 381 Old 02-01-2012, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKaram View Post

I don't doubt that you may be perceiving *something* but you're off on what you think it is.

I assure you that you are not seeing 60Hz flicker in incandescent bulbs. It's simply not possible with the human eye.
Now, perhaps you're seeing some color shift or standing waves caused by something else... but you're not seeing a 60Hz flicker.
That just isn't how incandescent light, and human eyes work....

I can in fact occasionally see it, both of my brothers possess the same visual acuity as well. I can't always see the 60Hz flicker, it's more of a fleeting/spontaneous perception that occurs at random. It's definitely noticed more often with translucent bulbs vs opaque. For a brief moment I'll see the fast cyclical brightness fluctuation. It is very subtle and no optical illusion due to brightness of light or after images. I have noticed it with incandescent bulbs of various wattage ratings as low as 15 to as high as 60. The 75 and 100 watt bulbs are too bright to detect.

Quote:
EDIT: As for RBE, it's certainly not what you're experiencing if the three-chip primary sets like the laservue still cause you problems.

It most definitely was RBE, and as I've mentioned a few posts back, my brain has compensated to the aberration. I rarely ever see it now.

I was made aware of a U.S. military study into single chip based DLP training simulators. It was concluded that a 26x color wheel was necessary to eliminate RBE for all of their test subjects. The 26x color wheel was then mandated (1.56kHz component color refresh rate).

My Sammy HL61A750 has no color wheel. The LEDs sequentially pulse at 2.9kHz which is equivalent to a 48x color wheel...yet I can still see RBE now and then regardless of the ultra-fast cycle rate. RBE was constantly in my face for an entire week before gradually waning off as my brain compensated.

You are mistaken about the Mitsubishi LaserVue it is a single chip DLP based system, not a tri-chip. The lasers sequentially pulse at 10kHz, which is equivalent to a 166x color wheel. I have still yet to examine a LaserVue specimen, but I highly doubt I'd witness any RBE on them.
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post #249 of 381 Old 02-04-2012, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dd3kv2 View Post

I currently own a HLT56S76XXA Samsung DLP; up until about two months ago it had exceptional picture quality. My problem with the DLP is not with the replacing of the bulb, but with the replacing of any other part. Not only is it costly, but also a pain to acquire. Samsung has had an on going problem with white dots showing up on their DLP's for some time now; which is caused by the DMD board going bad. It's probably one of the reasons Samsung doesn't make DLP's anymore; that and maybe cost. Samsung will not fix it as its outside its warranty, so I have to call in a TV repair man. It has a quote of $550 to get it fixed. Needless to say, I just saved that money and I'm now going to purchase another television, probably Plasma. I do not hate DLP's, but I definitely will not purchase one again.

Sorry to hear about your white dot problem.

The problem was with some defective DMD chips made by TI. Samsung, Mitsubishi, and other DLP brands suffered from this problem, as it was TI's fault. The difference is Mitsubishi continued to repair the problem, even outside of warranty. There are posts all over this forum attesting to it.

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Originally Posted by coolstrategist View Post

Well in the interest of this thread I will provide an update on my white dot issue.

Mits called yesterday to inform me that the local tech had received the light engine Mits sent a few days ago (excellent communication). The Mits guy said the tech company would be out between 8-noon today.

The tech showed up at 10am and took all of 20 minutes to install the new light engine. All I had to do was sign and smile.

The 65833 looks great tonight and I am more than pleased with the Mits response and resolution to a problem on a 4 year old out of warranty DLP.

Thanks guys for the guidance.

I wouldn't give up on DLP, I'd give up on Samsung.

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post #250 of 381 Old 02-04-2012, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dd3kv2 View Post

I currently own a HLT56S76XXA Samsung DLP; up until about two months ago it had exceptional picture quality. My problem with the DLP is not with the replacing of the bulb, but with the replacing of any other part. Not only is it costly, but also a pain to acquire. Samsung has had an on going problem with white dots showing up on their DLP's for some time now; which is caused by the DMD board going bad. It's probably one of the reasons Samsung doesn't make DLP's anymore; that and maybe cost. Samsung will not fix it as its outside its warranty, so I have to call in a TV repair man. It has a quote of $550 to get it fixed. Needless to say, I just saved that money and I'm now going to purchase another television, probably Plasma. I do not hate DLP's, but I definitely will not purchase one again.

Probably too late to tell you, but most people just fix this on their own for $200. I can't put a link up, but just google "How to fix Samsung white dot syndrome". Click on the "Supreme Overlord of the Internet" link. He has a very detailed way of showing you how to fix it. It's cheaper than buying a new TV, and you get the satisfaction of mastering your property.

Kind of like that satisfaction of knowing how to change your oil etc.
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post #251 of 381 Old 02-06-2012, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Death_Charge View Post

Probably too late to tell you, but most people just fix this on their own for $200. I can't put a link up, but just google "How to fix Samsung white dot syndrome". Click on the "Supreme Overlord of the Internet" link. He has a very detailed way of showing you how to fix it. It's cheaper than buying a new TV, and you get the satisfaction of mastering your property.

Kind of like that satisfaction of knowing how to change your oil etc.

Thanks for the link, I had been looking for information on how to do this. It's still going to cost me $300 for the chip; but I can install that with ease it seems. I love my DLP, so fixing it will be an awesome bonus for me.

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Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

Sorry to hear about your white dot problem.

The problem was with some defective DMD chips made by TI. Samsung, Mitsubishi, and other DLP brands suffered from this problem, as it was TI's fault.

Yes I finally read all the information about it; too bad Mitsubishi is the only company doing anything about it.


Thank you both for the information and help; it was was insightful and friendly.
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post #252 of 381 Old 02-13-2012, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by inuyasha-rules View Post

Nothing is bullet proof. Dlp is the new kid on the block and repairs are expensive and common. Bulbs, ballasts, and the little Dlp chip are common repairs I've heard of costing between $100 and $600 on average. Considering I saw some decent looking LCD tvs at walmart today that were 55"+ for around $1200 it doesn't make sends to go Dlp. LCD is a mature technology and while im sure bulbs do burn out, I've never had it happen even on my pentium 1 laptop. Look around at all the faqs about changing a Dlp bulb then try to find an equal amount for LCD. When I can buy a new LCD for about twice the cost of a bulb and light engine, which one do you think im going to chose? Btw, im using LCD as an example since I have limited experience with plasma. My preferred display is crt as it doesn't motion blur or pixilate as bad as any digital display I've seen but they are big, heavy, and nearly out of production

I have a 5 year old 73 inch DLP, and a 2010 82 inch. Neither set has had any kind of problems, my bulb on my 73 is still going strong (sure I will need to replace eventually). I find these sets bulletproof.
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post #253 of 381 Old 02-13-2012, 11:25 PM
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Nice to see our friend Johnny was also trolling the Polk speaker thread....i think we are all on to you now buddy!
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From a technology point of view I am agnostic

Wouldn't that mean you don't watch any TV?
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Originally Posted by KewlK View Post

I know exactly what RBE is and have known about it for years from vomit-worthy experiences with older color wheel based sets. Random vertical red green and blue lines separating images and splotching up my viewing experience most definitely qualifies as RBE. I was under the false impression that the newer LED and laser based DLPs would totally eliminate the flaw for me, but they do not.

I too wish i could see what it was like, but that probably means i wouldn't be able to enjoy DLP RPTV. Do you also get dizzy when watching 3d? That could mean you have something wrong with your eyes

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post #254 of 381 Old 02-14-2012, 06:00 AM
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I can see air.

Keep calm and drive a Camaro
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post #255 of 381 Old 02-14-2012, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Kingcarcas View Post

I too wish i could see what it was like, but that probably means i wouldn't be able to enjoy DLP RPTV. Do you also get dizzy when watching 3d? That could mean you have something wrong with your eyes

No, I'm totally fine with 3D. I have no issues with stereoscopic vision or depth perception.

There is nothing wrong with my eyes, it's actually the opposite, they're just too acute.

EDIT: ...And I want to emphasize again that I rarely see RBE. Even when I look for it, it's difficult to see now. The eyes/brain will eventually learn to adjust to the issue _if_ an afflicted person is patient (takes about a week of casual watching for the rainbows to diminish).
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post #256 of 381 Old 02-14-2012, 11:13 AM
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I can see air.

Awesome
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post #257 of 381 Old 02-29-2012, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by videobruce View Post

And the stupid public beleives it.

Too busy text messaging.


or in my case they want a thin tv to mount on the wall because it looks better than a thicker one. One of the reasons I replaced my 2006 LCD with a much thinner new one. My tv (Sony HX820) is just a thin slab of black glass when turned off.

A DLP picture may be as good as my LCD, I just dont want to have to look at a giant box in my family room.
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post #258 of 381 Old 02-29-2012, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Nerlman View Post

or in my case they want a thin tv to mount on the wall because it looks better than a thicker one. One of the reasons I replaced my 2006 LCD with a much thinner new one. My tv (Sony HX820) is just a thin slab of black glass when turned off.

A DLP picture may be as good as my LCD, I just dont want to have to look at a giant box in my family room.

You bought according to your need.
The majority of flat screen buyers do not wall-mount their sets.
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post #259 of 381 Old 02-29-2012, 12:33 PM
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Uh oh, now Nerlman is trolling too! He's a stupid consumer who is buying the marketing hype Best Buy is shoving down his throat!

Right?

I find the giant screen encased in a piano gloss finish beautiful on my dlp, its not a box for crying out loud its only 17inch deep and sits on an also beautiful stand which is deeper and most believe its a flat panel until I tell them to look behind it and for the record it has a better picture than lcd
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post #260 of 381 Old 02-29-2012, 01:05 PM
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I find the giant screen encased in a piano gloss finish beautiful on my dlp, its not a box for crying out loud its only 17inch deep and sits on an also beautiful stand which is deeper and most believe its a flat panel until I tell them to look behind it and for the record it has a better picture than lcd

thats great - this works you. the way my family room is configured the tv is seen from the side and I dont want to have to look at it, or use my somewhat limited floor space for a tv if I dont have to.

I also have three younguns at home so the 'piano gloss' material your tv is encased in would be a magnet for hand prints.

my tv works for me, and yours works for you.
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post #261 of 381 Old 02-29-2012, 01:13 PM
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Been considering the dlps from mitsu. Looks awesome but just worried from old stories of unreliable sets. Comments?

No subwoofer I've heard has been able to produce the bass I've experienced in the Corps!

Must..stop...buying...every bluray release...
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post #262 of 381 Old 02-29-2012, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Nerlman View Post

thats great - this works you. the way my family room is configured the tv is seen from the side and I dont want to have to look at it, or use my somewhat limited floor space for a tv if I dont have to.

I also have three younguns at home so the 'piano gloss' material your tv is encased in would be a magnet for hand prints.

my tv works for me, and yours works for you.

At end of the day, that's all that matters enjoy
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post #263 of 381 Old 03-01-2012, 07:23 AM
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kindly limit posts to technical issues
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post #264 of 381 Old 03-01-2012, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Nerlman View Post

or in my case they want a thin tv to mount on the wall because it looks better than a thicker one. One of the reasons I replaced my 2006 LCD with a much thinner new one. My tv (Sony HX820) is just a thin slab of black glass when turned off.

A DLP picture may be as good as my LCD, I just dont want to have to look at a giant box in my family room.

An honest and perfectly acceptable preference for form over function.

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post #265 of 381 Old 03-04-2012, 01:59 PM
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jusy bought 82 dlp love it had 62 dlp (2005)

also have 55 lcd bedroom both sets are great
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post #266 of 381 Old 03-15-2012, 08:54 AM
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I had a Sony DLP since 1999 and now own a Mits 73 DLP. In between I had 2 LCD and a plasma TV. I think the hatred comes from combination of ignorance and from those who choose wrong technology for their room and viewing preference. If one is watching a lot of non-HD material, he should not go for a screen larger then 46'. For lots of ambient light and daytime viewing, LCD is a winner. On the other hand, for those who like to watch in dark room, DLP has absolutely hands down best picture, to me better then the top quality LCD/Plasma. I hate when people are just talking about price point vs. big screen. consider cheaper price of a DLP as an added bonus (or factor your service warranty and/or bulb replacement costs). To me, DLP looks the most film like, smooth and color-beautiful. As far as the cabinet, I don't mind to put it on a stand, after all where else would I put my A/V components and a center channel speaker?
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post #267 of 381 Old 03-25-2012, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cx3gma View Post

I had a Sony DLP since 1999 and now own a Mits 73 DLP. In between I had 2 LCD and a plasma TV. I think the hatred comes from combination of ignorance and from those who choose wrong technology for their room and viewing preference. If one is watching a lot of non-HD material, he should not go for a screen larger then 46'. For lots of ambient light and daytime viewing, LCD is a winner. On the other hand, for those who like to watch in dark room, DLP has absolutely hands down best picture, to me better then the top quality LCD/Plasma. I hate when people are just talking about price point vs. big screen. consider cheaper price of a DLP as an added bonus (or factor your service warranty and/or bulb replacement costs). To me, DLP looks the most film like, smooth and color-beautiful. As far as the cabinet, I don't mind to put it on a stand, after all where else would I put my A/V components and a center channel speaker?

I wasn't aware that Sony has ever manufactured a DLP RPTV television? Know for certain that they have made the following RPTV types over the years: CRT, 3 panel LCD, and SXRD (Sony's proprietary trademark for LCoS). Could have sworn that Sony was opposed to embracing DLP from the beginning.

Completely agree with your closing statements. DLP image quality does in fact appear much more realistic and "film like" compared to even the best LCDs and plasmas. LCDs strike me as unnaturally artificial even after professional calibration. Their slow pixel response rate causes me to see a constant motion blur, even with those overpriced displays which implement the latest active LED backlighting tricks. On the flip side of the coin, DMD response speed is phenominal....never a blurry moment here.

However, black level performance has gotten exceptional on LCDs....with ANSI contrast ratios bettering those of the great majority of DLPs. ..So it's not fair to sum all LCDs up as not being fit for night-time viewing. Most DLPs are plenty bright enough for bright ambient lighting situations.

Finally yeah, the thin-is-in propaganda BS is laughable to me as well. Your average consumer is a misinformed sap. What looks more advanced (and therefore more desirable): an ultra thin LCD, or a bloated and big-butted DLP? Then after getting the typical sales-pitch earload from a kid barely out of high school, the DLP remains collecting dust on the showroom floor. The LCD goes home to be idiotically wall mounted just above the fireplace, where it will cause chronic neck strain and be a constant fire hazard.
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post #268 of 381 Old 03-25-2012, 03:45 PM
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Sony NEVER manufactured a DLP RPTV.
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post #269 of 381 Old 03-25-2012, 03:52 PM
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Sony had an LCD RPTV. I looked at one before going with the Samsung DLP.

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post #270 of 381 Old 03-25-2012, 04:46 PM
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Ah ha! Now I know why this thread's been stuck! It's chock full of accurate information!

I'm happy to report that after 5 years, 11,818 hours, one lamp replacement and one lens cleaning later, my Mits 57732 is still looking as good as it did the day it was delivered.

Keep calm and drive a Camaro
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