Would DLP be a better choice for gaming than Plasma for me? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 50 Old 06-03-2012, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's what I want:

-Good picture quality
-HDMI
-Barely to not noticeable judder or blur, in both 30fps and 60fps
-42"
-VERY low image retention and burn-in risk
-No weird image effects when looking at it from an angle (i.e. the rainbow effect)
-Long lifetime
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post #2 of 50 Old 06-03-2012, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lackingvoltage View Post

Here's what I want:

-Good picture quality
-HDMI
-Barely to not noticeable judder or blur, in both 30fps and 60fps
-42"
-VERY low image retention and burn-in risk
-No weird image effects when looking at it from an angle (i.e. the rainbow effect)
-Long lifetime

DLP is going to be better for you for that fact that ALL plasma have IR. I personally think IR is a trivial issue as long as you break in the plasma during the first 200 hrs. As far as the rainbow affect goes, the faster the color wheel the better! I'd do as much research as possible before buying a either honestly. With DLP comes the issue of bulb life too.

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post #3 of 50 Old 06-03-2012, 01:47 PM
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Well, I've been using a 2008 Panasonic plasma as a computer monitor for months and there's no sign of the task bar being burnt in so I wouldn't worry about that.
Plasma motion resolution usually around 90% of the still resolution but dlp is no slouch either for speed. I don't think you'd have any problem at all with either dlp or plasma for motion performance, I wouldn't be able to tell them apart.
Plasma also has some odd rainbow effects called phosphor lag, plasma tech is always evolving though and while I can see the blue/yellow phosphor lag on my 2008 Panasonic newer Plasmas probably show a lot less of it.
I've generally heard that dlps don't last quite as long as people though they were going to when they first came out, 5 years or so seems to be the average number before things start to go wrong with them at which time the owner has to dish out a couple hundred to replace the color wheel or the optical block etc and don't forget about lamps
The thing that usually goes wrong on a plasma is the power supply because they draw a little more power than other display types, that would also cost a couple hundred to replace. Dlps also draw less power so if your going green then it may be better for you.
Plasma would likely have a slightly sharper picture as well vs dlp where there is no chance of the screen door effect in lower resolutions (I don't see the screen door effect on my 50" 720p plasma from 6 feet away).
A dlp would be brighter and less reflective as well(better for a brightly lit room) but due to it being a projection tv there is always the chance of stray light striking where it isn't supposed to in a high contrast scene.
Best of luck with your choice
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post #4 of 50 Old 06-03-2012, 09:42 PM
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I don't know about other DLPs, but mine is a 2008 model still going strong, excellent for 3D and gaming. My daughter has the 2006 model and has had one lamp replacement, which restores the TV to like new condition (the lamp is meant to be replaced and one can do it themselves in about three minutes).

All types/brands of TV have problem units, not only DLPs. That's why there's warranties and lawyers. Most sets, DLP or otherwise, work just fine.

I've seen posts where others have had there DLPs for as much as 10 years. I couldn't locate the 10 year post, but this guy is going on 8 years with his Samsung.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightmare View Post

If anyone cares...

I got into the Service Menu today on my Samsung HL-P5685W

Lamp Life 18,381

I don't know where that falls in the range of normal lamp life, but I'm more than a little surprised it is still running.

18381 / 7.5 Years = 2450 Hrs per year
2450 / 365 = 6.71 Hrs per day

Another long DLP history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyknoxsvill View Post

I'm on my 3rd Mits DLP. I've owned a 57", 73" and now we just bought a 92". The closest LCD/Plasma to that size is the Panasonic 103" Plasma for a mere 22K. I've had nothing but great experiences with these, oh I did have to change 1 bulb at a cost of $129, but I would like to know where I can get a $129 LCD TV at though.

Like the poster above said, make sure to get an extended warranty. Even with the added cost of that its still cheaper out the door.

and another testamonial

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_jitsu View Post

I have a 5 year old 73 inch DLP, and a 2010 82 inch. Neither set has had any kind of problems, my bulb on my 73 is still going strong (sure I will need to replace eventually). I find these sets bulletproof.

Research, and you will find all you need to know, good and bad.

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post #5 of 50 Old 06-04-2012, 10:12 PM
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Yeah I didn't want to imply that plasma has or has had no problems, early Plasmas had a very high failure rate due to heat and serious image retention. I do however believe that plasma has improved more than dlp has. From what I have read it would seem likely that modern Plasmas would be more reliable than modern dlps due to less moving parts. Not all dlp sets have easily replaceable bulbs either, look for sets that are marketed as having user replaceable bulbs.
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post #6 of 50 Old 06-04-2012, 10:22 PM
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I just noticed you wrote 42" as well. I don't think they sell 42" dlps anymore, if you want a 42" dlp you'd probably have to go back a few years. I almost forgot to mention viewing angles as well Dlp's have very good viewing angles, the picture was slightly more washed out off angle on my friends RCA scenium but that is an older dlp, newer ones are likely better. Plasmas on the other hand have near perfect viewing angles.
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post #7 of 50 Old 06-04-2012, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

Yeah I didn't want to imply that plasma has or has had no problems, early Plasmas had a very high failure rate due to heat and serious image retention. I do however believe that plasma has improved more than dlp has. From what I have read it would seem likely that modern Plasmas would be more reliable than modern dlps due to less moving parts. Not all dlp sets have easily replaceable bulbs either, look for sets that are marketed as having user replaceable bulbs.

The only moving parts are a fan and a color wheel, both run by electric motors, which have been around for over 100 years. There are electric motors in your computer, refrigerator, washing machine, clothes dryer, blender, saws, drills, ceiling fans, etc. Hardly a problem with reliability.

Which DLPs don't have user replacable lamps? The models I mentioned, and all Mitsubishi models, take all of 3 minutes to change the lamp. It's as easy as...changing a lightbulb. You unscrew two screws, slide a plastic box out, slide the new box in, and replace the screws.

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post #8 of 50 Old 06-04-2012, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

I just noticed you wrote 42" as well. I don't think they sell 42" dlps anymore, if you want a 42" dlp you'd probably have to go back a few years. I almost forgot to mention viewing angles as well Dlp's have very good viewing angles, the picture was slightly more washed out off angle on my friends RCA scenium but that is an older dlp, newer ones are likely better. Plasmas on the other hand have near perfect viewing angles.

Yeah, the smallest you'll get in a DLP is 73".

I could care less about viewing angles, since eveyone watches my TV from the front, and not the side. No matter the TV type, why would anyone try to watch from the side anyway? Because of perspective, watching from an odd angle would appear to halve or quarter the width of the picture, so I don't do it. Besides, it's kind of hard to get to one side of such a large screen

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post #9 of 50 Old 06-08-2012, 02:18 PM
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I just read the thing about not all dlp's having easily accessible lamps in some article about dlp's, most of them are likely user replaceable, the ones that weren't are probably older models and even then with some skill you could change it yourself it would just be more difficult to get to.
Ah yes viewing angles, a topic that's been debated throughout the ages biggrin.gif I recognize that no one watches their tv from an off angle but when i have friends over we can't physically occupy the same space tongue.gif Olders lcds are horrible for this i can't view the 2008 toshiba lcd i have from anymore than 30 degrees before blacks turn to grey (greyer i should say) and the picture looks horribly washed out. The dlp, i watched slightly off angle at a friends house as that's the way they had the furniture setup and it wasn't that bad the picture only got slightly more washed out (hardly even noticeable) which is why i'm saying it probably won't matter for newer dlp's,but plasmas are slightly better if you watch with friends.
Really, 73" is the smallest dlp you can get now? 0o that's insane, I think there's some 2010-2011 60 inchers floating around on amazon for 600, I don't know if any of them were new though.
As far as moving parts goes the idea that they just keep speeding up those color wheels to get rid of rainbow effects kinda turns me away from them slightly. The chip also has all those moving mirrors as well. I suppose if plasmas still need fans to keep them cool then that could be a source of failure for plasmas as well, but i don't think those fans run all the time for newer plasmas. I'm just thinking logically, plasmas have improved the heat output alot over the years which was their main source of failure, but those color wheels spin quite fast these days and stuff that spins at high speeds fails all the time, it's part of the reason why solid state drives are replacing hard disk drives, they're not just faster they are also more reliable and have a much longer lifespan. Seems like fans die alot more often these days as well, the fan in my 40 year old pa amp is still truckin along smile.gif
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post #10 of 50 Old 06-09-2012, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

I just read the thing about not all dlp's having easily accessible lamps in some article about dlp's, most of them are likely user replaceable, the ones that weren't are probably older models and even then with some skill you could change it yourself it would just be more difficult to get to...
Link? I have never seen any DLPs that didn't have easily user replaceable lamps.
Quote:
Ah yes viewing angles, a topic that's been debated throughout the ages biggrin.gif I recognize that no one watches their tv from an off angle but when i have friends over we can't physically occupy the same space tongue.gif Olders lcds are horrible for this i can't view the 2008 toshiba lcd i have from anymore than 30 degrees before blacks turn to grey (greyer i should say) and the picture looks horribly washed out. ...
My friends have no problem watching my TV from anywhere in the room. DLP viewing angles are much better than LCD, for example this review from the HH Gregg website:http://www.hhgregg.com/mitsubishi-82-3d-1080p-120hz-dlp-hdtv/item/WD82840#pr-header-WD82840
Quote:
The TV feels very sturdy and durable when you move it. The viewing angle is good with about 170 degrees of viewing.

Seeing is believing, however, so check out the viewing angles for yourself on this DLP.
.
.
Quote:

As far as moving parts goes the idea that they just keep speeding up those color wheels to get rid of rainbow effects kinda turns me away from them slightly. ...
I don't think color wheel speeds have increased since 2002. rolleyes.gif Most people never see rainbow effects, especially since the aforementioned change in color wheel speeds. If rainbows are a problem, then one should choose another TV technology, just as lactose intolerant people should avoid dairy.
Quote:
The chip also has all those moving mirrors as well. ...
Another layman's concern, and old wive's tale. Those "moving mirrors" are microscopic, and can only be visualized using an electron microscope. Wear and tear is entirely different in the microscopic world than what we normally observe, and in this case, is more like grass waving in the breeze. More here: http://clifton.mech.northwestern.edu/~me381/papers/intro/ti_micromirror3.pdf.

DLPs are just as viable a TV choice as plasma or LCD. One must do their research however, and decide for themselves which they prefer.

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post #11 of 50 Old 06-09-2012, 06:33 PM
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I'm not here to start an argument with you augerhandle, i'm here to provide information to the op about what the best technology for his or her needs are based on various articles and forums that i have read in the past.
Not all tv's are the same, it's likely that some tv's with have more easily, and safely replaceable lamps than others and not everyone is tech savvy i'm not saying it will be a problem but i have heard it mentioned and it's something to keep in mind. Here is an article i have read on safely replacing lamps, it mentions that safety precautions must be taken when changing the lamp as it can be very hot and also contains mercury:
http://www.dlptvreview.com/dlptvreviews/projection-lamp-replacement.html
Dlp viewing angles are very good this is another point where i agree with you, but it is a projection tv and all projection tv's lose brightness at off angles which applies to the vertical viewing angle as well. Every single person in the room saw the rainbow effect on the rca scenium once i mentioned it, plasmas have a similar effect called phosphor lag so it's really a case of pick whatever you don't notice. In the wikipedia article regarding dlps you can see that the color wheel can only be made to safely spin so fast. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Light_Processing
Those microscopic mirrors are part of the projection/optical path where in things get projected/blown up to a viewable size as would any flaws.
Moving parts degrade at a faster rate than parts that don't move, i have always thought it to be common sense.
Plasma panel life however has improved quite alot over the years and i would expect one to last longer.
I can sense your sarcasm and i do not appreciate it, i have only stated my opinions based on research i have done and the various displays i own or have experience with. I expect alot more maturity from someone who has been on this forum for so long. Dlp's are not perfect however neither are plasmas, for every fact or opinion i have stated about dlp's whether negative or positive i have discussed how plasmas compare both positively and negatively. i'm only here to learn and to help other people. This doesn't have to be a pi$$ing match, let's keep to the facts and respect opinions and everyone will benefit smile.gif
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The dlp you have shown in the video is exactly as i would expect it to be. Very good horizontal viewing angles and reasonable vertical viewing angles. I'm not sure what else you expect auger i have agreed with alot of the points you have made and stated a few of my own, is that not how a forum works?
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post #13 of 50 Old 06-09-2012, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

I'm not here to start an argument with you augerhandle, i'm here to provide information to the op about what the best technology for his or her needs are based on various articles and forums that i have read in the past.
Not all tv's are the same, it's likely that some tv's with have more easily, and safely replaceable lamps than others and not everyone is tech savvy i'm not saying it will be a problem but i have heard it mentioned and it's something to keep in mind. Here is an article i have read on safely replacing lamps, it mentions that safety precautions must be taken when changing the lamp as it can be very hot and also contains mercury:
http://www.dlptvreview.com/dlptvreviews/projection-lamp-replacement.html
Dlp viewing angles are very good this is another point where i agree with you, but it is a projection tv and all projection tv's lose brightness at off angles which applies to the vertical viewing angle as well. Every single person in the room saw the rainbow effect on the rca scenium once i mentioned it, plasmas have a similar effect called phosphor lag so it's really a case of pick whatever you don't notice. In the wikipedia article regarding dlps you can see that the color wheel can only be made to safely spin so fast. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Light_Processing
Those microscopic mirrors are part of the projection/optical path where in things get projected/blown up to a viewable size as would any flaws.
Moving parts degrade at a faster rate than parts that don't move, i have always thought it to be common sense.
Plasma panel life however has improved quite alot over the years and i would expect one to last longer.
I can sense your sarcasm and i do not appreciate it, i have only stated my opinions based on research i have done and the various displays i own or have experience with. I expect alot more maturity from someone who has been on this forum for so long. Dlp's are not perfect however neither are plasmas, for every fact or opinion i have stated about dlp's whether negative or positive i have discussed how plasmas compare both positively and negatively. i'm only here to learn and to help other people. This doesn't have to be a pi$$ing match, let's keep to the facts and respect opinions and everyone will benefit smile.gif

You ask to "keep to the facts", which is what every word of my last post did, unlike yours.

No argument here, I have only presented facts with links and other evidence in response to some of your misinformed claims. One can't argue with facts. I am sorry if you take it personally when you are proven wrong, but oh well. I don't know you, so I can have no expectations of your own maturity level, and would not think to personally attack you as you have just attacked me. Sticks and stones... so let's move on.

While your opinion is always welcome, I think the OP would appreciate real and current facts more than "I heard it mentioned" and "I would expect" anecdotes, especially after the actual facts have been presented. Yet after some of your statements were debunked, you seem to just modify your statements with more fluff and misdirection, as if you felt an argument was there to be won.

Again, I ask for the link to your information about lamp changes, so one may check the facts, and avoid any "argument"rolleyes.gif.

For example, here are the directions for changing the lamp in a Mitsubishi DLP T V. http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/asset/file/owners_guide/742_842_IB.pdf (Page 42) The directions for Samsung, another popular brand, are almost identical. Again, no argument, just factual evidence contrary to what you claim.

More fluff and misdirection: To counter the facts I presented about lamp changes, you have taken a stab at lamp safety issues. Safety precautions are no different than when changing a normal household CFL lamp, as shown here: http://www.gelighting.com/na/home_lighting/ask_us/downloads/MercuryInCFLs.pdf

As for viewing angles, I have already posted factual evidence (a video of an actual DLP TV in operation) for anyone to see for themselves. There's also this:
Quote:
For video the picture quality was outstanding, with an excellent match to the reference CRT monitor, but on a much larger screen, an impressive achievement...As with most rear projection units there was a significant variation in brightness with viewing angle, which is intentionally introduced by the projection screen in order to maximize the luminance at normal audience viewing angles. However, there is no variation of Dynamic Range, hue or saturation with viewing angle.
http://www.displaymate.com/ShootOut_Part_4.htm

I have also already posted proof that micro mirrors do not degrade as macro world moving parts do, and how one's common sense does not apply on the microscopic level. The scientific white paper I linked to explains why, and proves the longevity of the DLP chip. Fact, not opinion, yet you just restate your "common sense" belief that somehow they must degrade.

Now on to opinion. I have never seen rainbow effect, and know no one who has. My sons, daughter, friends, and even my ex wife all own DLPs and have never reported seeing rainbow effect. I have read about it, however, and I'm sure it may be a problem for some people, just as plasma screen door effect is a deal killer for me. Here's a fact: You and your friends seeing rainbows does not mean that the OP will, just as my daughter-in-law being lactose intolerant has no effect on the dietary habits of other people. Just because you prefer plasma doesn't mean other people will, or should.

Check my previous posts. Up to now, I have specifically avoided any discussion of "plasma vs DLP" and have not stated anything negative about plasma, as that is Fanboy territory. in fact, I don't believe I've even mentioned plasma before my last post. I have only intended to clear up misconceptions and debunk any myths being posted here. Unlike yourself who feigns neutrality while continuing to "argue" against a competing technology, rather than just stating the relevant features of the TV you own.

I could care less what people choose, as all TVs work well enough for most situations and normal usage. I will however, try to post factual information to back up opinion, and to clear up other's misconceptions whenever possible.
EDIT: added quote

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post #14 of 50 Old 06-09-2012, 09:20 PM
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DLPs are fat pigs, plasmas are nice and thin! You can fit a MUCH Bigger screen in a MUCH smaller foot print with a plasma. Most are rated 100,000 hrs life, which equates to 11.5 years running 24/7! Not one DLP in the world can match that life span. Buy a plasma and be done with it.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

The dlp you have shown in the video is exactly as i would expect it to be. Very good horizontal viewing angles and reasonable vertical viewing angles. I'm not sure what else you expect auger i have agreed with alot of the points you have made and stated a few of my own, is that not how a forum works?

I don't expect anything. You are welcome to post whatever you like. If I feel anyone's post is incorrect and needs to be challenged, I will say so and provide reasons, just as anyone else might. I do not do so lightly, just as I don't go around spell checking everyone. As I stated, it's never personal, nor meant to be interpretted that way. Other people are just as welcome to challenge my posts, and yes, that's how forums work.

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DLPs are fat pigs, plasmas are nice and thin! You can fit a MUCH Bigger screen in a MUCH smaller foot print with a plasma. Most are rated 100,000 hrs life, which equates to 11.5 years running 24/7! Not one DLP in the world can match that life span. Buy a plasma and be done with it.

Thats funny.biggrin.gif Especially since there are no big screen plasmas

Thin is in, but that plasma stand is just as big as a DLP base, and requires a TV stand just the same. Unless, of course, the wife insists on hanging it above the fireplace like Uncle Charley's picture. Then, by all means insist on a flatscreen. Even an LCD will hang on the wall, it's all about one's priorities. I was always concerned with patching the wall and rewiring another wall in the room for the TV when the wife rearranges the furniture every six months or so.

"Rated" at 100,000 hours? The DLP chip is tested to 120,000 hours. There are 10 year old DLPs still out there working like brand new. I have yet to see a 10 year old plasma without picture degradation. (I have yet to see a 10 year old plasma, period, though I would hope there are some out there). As for 100,000 hour life, what about picture quality after that 100,000 hours? I own a car that has "lived" for over 100,000 miles, but it's quality is no more equal to a newer car than a 100,000 hour plasma would be to a newer plasma. In contrast, a quick lamp change in a DLP, and the picture is like new again.

Again, who cares? If you want small picture and thin and must hang it on the wall, get a plasma. If you want that large screen experience with no gaming lag, motion blur or 3D ghosting, get a DLP. If you just want big and wall hung and don't care about the picture as much, get an LCD.

EDIT:

Don't forget viewing distance. Mounting on the wall puts the screen even farther from the viewer, effectively making the screen smaller. And how far away is your seating? The recommended viewing distance for HDTV is closer than standard definition was. http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/hdtv_distance_chart.pdf

For example, the recommended viewing distances for these TV sizes:
Quote:
50" about 6.5 ft

60" about 7.8 ft

65" about 8.5 ft

73" (DLP) about 9.5 ft

82" (DLP) about 10.7 ft

92" (DLP) about 12.0 ft

For 3D, it is recommended to sit even closer, which would mean about 6 ft. on a 65" TV

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It's called a wall mount, no stand needed. how would a bulb look at 100,000 hours? I have yet to see a 10 year old DLP bulb without degradation, I have to see a working 10 year old DLP bulb period though I would hope there are some out there!

I'll just leave this here
http://gizmodo.com/5442012/panasonics-152+inch-3d-plasma-the-biggest-tv-yet

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeytown Fan View Post

It's called a wall mount, no stand needed. how would a bulb look at 100,000 hours? I have yet to see a 10 year old DLP bulb without degradation, I have to see a working 10 year old DLP bulb period though I would hope there are some out there!
I'll just leave this here
http://gizmodo.com/5442012/panasonics-152+inch-3d-plasma-the-biggest-tv-yet
I addressed wall mounting in my last post. Done correctly, it requires all wiring to be hidden in the wall, a sizeable expense, especially when the wife keeps rearranging the room layout.. Cords and cables hanging down below it just looks cheezy. And where does one put their AVR, cable/sat box, Bluray player, PS3, XBox, etc? They don't wall mount, and their cabinet sticks out just as far, if not farther than a TV on a stand (which also would house all of that equipment).

Either way, wall mounted or placed on a stand has nothing to do with TV quality. If your purchasing decision is based on wall mounting, so be it. I want a high quality theater like experience, and I don't get it with anything less than 73".

I also addressed lamp changes in my last post. DLP lamps are replaceable for a reason. It's called long TV life. The only thing user replaceable on a plasma to restore it when the picture degrades is... um, the entire TV.

The second sentence from your link to a large screen plasma:
Quote:
Not that you'll be able to afford one.

Which is no different than the first plasmas that were around $10,000 for a 37" when they first came out. All these years, and they still can't make them at competitive prices.

Last time I checked (which was just now), 65" plasmas were typically selling for around $2500-$3,000 on sale. One can buy an 73" DLP for less than $1200, an 82" for under $1,700, and a 92" for.... I'll just leave this here: http://www.amazon.com/Mitsubishi-WD-92840-92-Inch-1080p-Projection/dp/B004ZL2O9U

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post #19 of 50 Old 06-09-2012, 11:20 PM
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I'm kinda sick of doing long winded posts so ill keep this short. I don't buy for a second that it isn't meant to be personal, i'm convinced you were determined to make it personal when you blatantly nit picked my posts. I never gave any validity what so ever to the article i found about non user changeable bulbs and yet you got yourself all worked up about it and decided to sarcastically insult my intelligence for quite a few posts. Mosts of the facts you stated are blatanly wrong and i'm sick of letting it slide so here goes biggrin.gif
You stated the "fact" that lcds have poorer viewing angles than dlp's which isn't always true in the case of ips panels which have far better vertical viewing angles and comparable or better horizontal viewing angles.
You stated that moving parts don't degrade at a microscopic level, physics scale to the realm of microscopic and the article you referenced is extremely biased and likely written by ti.
Panasonic wouldn't be to happy if their 85" and 152" plasma displays didn't exist just because you say so, and since when was a 65" tv considered small???
You stated that listing the pros and cons of displays would be "fanboi" territoy when in reality it would make you less ignorant.
You also don't understand that viewing angles aren't only related to your position in front of the tv, even if you are dead on center your eyes will still be at an angle to the far left and far right of the screen and more importantly for dlp they will also be at an angle to the top and bottom of the screen.
Well i'm running out of cyber breath biggrin.gif You'll find that everything i have stated here is accurate and anything i state that isn't a fact is insight and should be taken as such (meaning i don't have to provide links to it) You have made it obvious that you don't have experience with plasmas which explains the onesidedness of your post. I for one am definetly for plasma but i have experience with/own various displays including a rear projection, a plasma, and lcds with tn,va,and ips panels and of course digital theater projectors.
Anyone who wants a screen 92" really should be looking into a projector setup anyways not rear projection.
Plasmas really aren't that much more expensive especially when they can better dlp in almost every aspect of picture quality. 720p plasmas are a real value right now and are on par with the sharpness of any dlp i have had the pleasure of viewing.
The last part of this post is to the op which is the way this thread should have been all along.
Plasmas will be sharper, however they are also more fragile which should be taken into account if you will be placing it in a high traffic area.
I apologize for my part in the bickering throughout this thread and i hope you can at least find the information you need here.
Best of luck smile.gif
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post #20 of 50 Old 06-10-2012, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by lackingvoltage View Post

Here's what I want:
-Good picture quality
-HDMI
-Barely to not noticeable judder or blur, in both 30fps and 60fps
-42"
-VERY low image retention and burn-in risk
-No weird image effects when looking at it from an angle (i.e. the rainbow effect)
-Long lifetime
Kind of sounds like you're looking for a plasma to me.
-picture quality (can be debated)
-HDMI
-I don't think there's judder or blur at 30/60 as long as the content is 30/60
-42"
-low image retention
-but can have phosphor lag image affect. you'll need to know if you are capable of seeing it.
-hopefully long lifetime (better now than 1st gen plasmas)

I've had my first plasma for about a year and a half now (2010 model). There are things I like, and things I dislike.

I like the overall picture quality, the contrast, detail, and vibrant color reproduction with HD material (after calibrated using d-nice's posted values). I like the fast response, no blur or whole image lag. I like the viewing angle, the image does not change viewing from the top, bottom, or sides. I like the thinness, even though I'm using the stand and it's on top of a cabinet box that's 2' high.

I dislike the floating blacks. I dislike the horizontal flashing bars in dark or black scenes. I dislike that dark scenes create IR that interfere with my IR repeater, makes the transmission lights go nuts. I dislike the phosphor lag, it was pretty major the first few months and has tapered off but it's still there especially when I use the computer and move windows around. I dislike the dancing green pixels (dithering?) in dark scenes, although that's not visible at my viewing distance, not really a problem. I kind of dislike the minor image retention, viewable only in a dark room when the TV has a black signal and you're up close. You can see ghosts of previous images left on the screen for a few minutes. But this goes away with time, really no problem. I dislike the layered image from the glass and phosphor. Viewable during credits at an angle up close, you see about 3 or so duplicate images. Since it's only viewable up close at an angle, it's really not a problem. So really I only have major problems with floating blacks, flashing bars, and phosphor lag.

All in all this TV has been a major upgrade from my old Sony Wega 34" HD tube from 2007. HD TV content looks amazing. My bare-bone "wishlist" fix would be to fix the floating blacks and flashing bars. Then I would absolutely deal and live with all my other issues happily.
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Well i'm running out of cyber breath biggrin.gif
Heh, "cyber breath", that's cool. smile.gif
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So...... still no link? tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

[snip] ...)Mosts of the facts you stated are blatanly wrong and i'm sick of letting it slide so here goes
You stated the "fact" that lcds have poorer viewing angles than dlp's which isn't always true in the case of ips panels which have far better vertical viewing angles and comparable or better horizontal viewing angles.
You stated that moving parts don't degrade at a microscopic level, physics scale to the realm of microscopic and the article you referenced is extremely biased and likely written by ti...



My DLP viewing angle comment was based on your own claim of only 30 degrees. I stand corrected. (see how easy that was)

Your claim doesn't really apply however
Quote:
Many of the major manufacturers have their own proprietary technology for increasing the viewing angles so you’ll see acronyms like IPS (In Plane Switching, Hitachi and NEC), MVA (Multi-domain Vertical Alignment, Fujitsu), PVA (Patterned Vertical Alignment, Samsung), and ASV (Advanced Super View, Sharp) for many panels. The problem is that it’s very hard to compare the true viewing angles for these technologies because for LCDs the viewing angle is currently defined as the angle where the full-on and full-off contrast (Dynamic Range) decreases to a value of 10 (yes, ten, it’s not a typo), which is an incredibly low value that may be meaningful for LCD watches but not for imaging displays. As a result, for computer and video direct-view LCDs you’ll generally see viewing angle specs in the narrow range of 170 to 178 degrees, which isn’t particularly helpful since they don’t produce a satisfactory image at those angles
http://www.displaymate.com/ShootOut_Part_4.htm

and while we're on the subject:
Quote:
One problem with a Lambertian light distribution is that a lot of light is wasted in directions where no one is likely to see it, like the ceiling, for example. So almost all front and rear projection screens intentionally concentrate the light in the directions where there is likely to be an audience. By redistributing the light the image appears brighter than it would with a uniform distribution. This increase is called the Gain of the screen and the higher the Gain the narrower the light distribution. For screens the viewing angle is defined as the angle where the gain or luminance drop to 50 percent of peak, and it’s often different for the vertical and horizontal directions. Note that this definition is different than for Plasmas, so the viewing angles for each cannot be compared.
Quote:
The viewing angle that’s quoted for Plasma display specifications is the angle where the luminance drops to 33 percent of the face-on value....Hopefully the entire display industry will come up with a uniform and useful definition of viewing angle in the near future
http://www.displaymate.com/ShootOut_Part_4.htm


As for physics scaling, you might try researching relativity, quantum physics, or even basic chemistry
Quote:
Consider, for example, a bar of aluminum which
is repeatedly bent against itself: it will ultimately
snap. Few of us have not at some time
bent and re-bent a soft drink can until the metal
has torn. But how many of us have taken a
sheet of aluminum foil and attempted to cause it
to break by bending it back and forth?
The important relationship is between the size
of the crystals - or ‘grains’ - which comprise the
material of the item and the size of the item in
question.
When a material breaks, it is because
of dislocations caused to the crystal structure
within it. These dislocations migrate to, and
accumulate at, joints between the grains. This
has the effect of concentrating mechanical
stress until the yield point of the material is
exceeded - at which point, breakage occurs.
In something as microscopically small as a
DMD hinge, there is, in effect, no internal
crystal structure - all crystals are at the surface
of the material. Wh
at this means is that the
stresses caused by crystal dislocations are
relieved immediately on the hinge surface -
before the hinge’s crystalline structure can be
damaged.

The rest of your post isn't of interest to me, except:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

[snip] ...You'll find that everything i have stated here is accurate and anything i state that isn't a fact is insight and should be taken as such (meaning i don't have to provide links to it)
EDIT: added quote

"The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"-Tibetan Proverb
 
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post #23 of 50 Old 06-10-2012, 08:47 AM
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So dmd's are like tinfoil now and extend into the realm of quantum physics, aren't you forgetting about the magical leprechauns that leave their pots of gold at the end of the dlp rainbows effecting the pixel structure, those pesky leprechauns biggrin.gif
It's funny the things you find fault with in my post aren't really the things i put alot of weight on in the first place, when i write things like "could be something to keep in mind" or what about those moving mirrors your welcome to debate that, but preferably with an article written in english and not obviously biased. Try this next time:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_micromirror_device It would have also added the shades of gray spec to the argument which i completly forgot about.

We'll you caught me off guard there, it appears that the hinge may not actually be a factor at all, had you posted a link to a viable article earlier in a non sarcastic manor I would have looked into it more before i talked about how physics scale. I'm not a physicist however and neither are you and i still can't find information on where these "tests" we're carried out. Regardless of microscopic scaling i'd hedge my bets on plasma as lasting longer before it isn't worth replacing (like most early dlp sets) due to moving parts that operate on the non microscopic level and if you would like to nitpick this one thing i am possibly wrong about, give me a few posts and i'll start another list of the things you got wrong.

You don't seem to wan't to debate things that really matter like sharpness or viability you just keep shoving dlp down my throat even though it isn't even viable for the op.
Your not agreeing with me reagarding lcds because you want to, your doing it to maintain the level of sarcasm and condescension you've had going since almost the beginning of this thread. I still don't appreciate it and i still see right through it smile.gif

Sarcasm doesn't work, I've tried it in debates with some people who are convinced they are right about everything even if they don't have any experience with what they are debating. Sarcasm only made them less likely to read up, which is why i have switched to a more reasonable approach, it's a good tactic, give it a shot smile.gif

I know what you mean with that doubling effect skram i had a cheapo prima brand plasma a while back that would double the picture up to 10 times at the right angle, newer ones from better brands look alot better though, even my panny from 2008 only doubles it 1 or 2 times if you look directly from the left or right edge of the screen (not a very viable seating position tongue.gif)
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Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

I addressed wall mounting in my last post. Done correctly, it requires all wiring to be hidden in the wall, a sizeable expense, especially when the wife keeps rearranging the room layout.. Cords and cables hanging down below it just looks cheezy.
Haha... Your argument why DLP is better is "where are you gonna put the wires" lmao! Even if you ran them in the wall, its like 20 dollars for the all the supply needed LOL! But to solve the whole wifey issue of moving furniture around I'll just leave this here also.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=100593204&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&MERCH=REC%2d%5f%2dSearchPLPHorizontal1%2d3%2d%5f%2dNA%2d%5f%2d100593204%2d%5f%2dN
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I'm pretty sure hockeytown fan was being sarcastic, possibly in an attempt to portray to auger that biased sarcasm isn't the way to go. You don't have to center a plasma on a wall, you can put it at eye level.

Plasmas are indeed a better bargain at "smaller" sizes but if it were me i would just put a decent projector in a light controlled room as it would be an even better bargain than a dlp projection tv, easier to move and setup (not an issue for me as a crt fan) and better viewing angles. Add in the fact that it's out of the way and a very large screen really should be viewed in a light controlled room anyways, and you'd have a lot more/better choices for that large screen like lcos (sxrd, dila) dlp (single chip, or triple chip) laser, or even lcd/led with variable iris. If i were in the market for a 3d display system i'd probably just buy a couple of cheap older dlp or very good lcd 1024x768 projectors and there you have it a 3d system that holds a decent resolution in 3d mode for around 300$ Those cheap projectors tend to have an accent on brightness and the 3d passive specs would work wonders for the black level anyways. Black level another point where a good plasma can beat a dlp in case i haven't already mentioned it.
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I'm pretty sure hockeytown fan was being sarcastic, possibly in an attempt to portray to auger that biased sarcasm isn't the way to go.
Ding Ding Ding.... Winner winner chicken dinner!

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It was just a shot in the dark biggrin.gif I figured you not liking big fat and ugly displays might go agains't your crt rear projection tongue.gif Though i personally find my rear pro to be a beautiful piece of machinery smile.gif
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post #28 of 50 Old 06-10-2012, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

It was just a shot in the dark biggrin.gif I figured you not liking big fat and ugly displays might go agains't your crt rear projection tongue.gif Though i personally find my rear pro to be a beautiful piece of machinery smile.gif
you cought me Haha.. I love my 65 RPTV (the almost 400 lbs pig it is), even went as far as desoldering bad convergence chips, ordered new chips and soldered them back in just so I could keep this set. That's 36 different micro solder points I had to deal with! The funny part is, my first post in this thread I RECOMMEND a DLP lol. Hell have no fury like a DLP owner scorn I guess...

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post #29 of 50 Old 06-10-2012, 11:26 AM
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Yeah i'm waiting for some early adopters of those laservue sets to adopt the mindset that thin is in and sell off their sets at bargain prices smile.gif Not sure if it will happen that way but it seems about right.
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post #30 of 50 Old 06-10-2012, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik James View Post

So dmd's are like tinfoil now and extend into the realm of quantum physics, aren't you forgetting about the magical leprechauns that leave their pots of gold at the end of the dlp rainbows effecting the pixel structure, those pesky leprechauns biggrin.gif
It's funny the things you find fault with in my post aren't really the things i put alot of weight on in the first place, when i write things like "could be something to keep in mind" or what about those moving mirrors your welcome to debate that, but preferably with an article written in english and not obviously biased. Try this next time:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_micromirror_device It would have also added the shades of gray spec to the argument which i completly forgot about.
We'll you caught me off guard there, it appears that the hinge may not actually be a factor at all, had you posted a link to a viable article earlier in a non sarcastic manor I would have looked into it more before i talked about how physics scale. I'm not a physicist however and neither are you and i still can't find information on where these "tests" we're carried out. Regardless of microscopic scaling i'd hedge my bets on plasma as lasting longer before it isn't worth replacing (like most early dlp sets) due to moving parts that operate on the non microscopic level and if you would like to nitpick this one thing i am possibly wrong about, give me a few posts and i'll start another list of the things you got wrong.
You don't seem to wan't to debate things that really matter like sharpness or viability you just keep shoving dlp down my throat even though it isn't even viable for the op.
Your not agreeing with me reagarding lcds because you want to, your doing it to maintain the level of sarcasm and condescension you've had going since almost the beginning of this thread. I still don't appreciate it and i still see right through it smile.gif
Sarcasm doesn't work, I've tried it in debates with some people who are convinced they are right about everything even if they don't have any experience with what they are debating. Sarcasm only made them less likely to read up, which is why i have switched to a more reasonable approach, it's a good tactic, give it a shot smile.gif
I know what you mean with that doubling effect skram i had a cheapo prima brand plasma a while back that would double the picture up to 10 times at the right angle, newer ones from better brands look alot better though, even my panny from 2008 only doubles it 1 or 2 times if you look directly from the left or right edge of the screen (not a very viable seating position tongue.gif)

When there is sarcasm, you will see this Sarcasm smiley rolleyes.gif

As I've already stated, I put emphasis on the same lame myths and old wives tales being repeated ad nauseum by plasma fanboys who also refuse to bone up on the subject. If you didn't understand the paper I linked to, you should have told me, and I would have tried to explain it to you. It doesn't necessitate leprechauns or magic, just a willingness to learn.

I will try to avoid using sarcasm with you in the future however, if only for the reason you give and have proven with your own posts.
Quote:
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...some people who are convinced they are right about everything even if they don't have any experience with what they are debating. Sarcasm only made them less likely to read up...

"The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"-Tibetan Proverb
 
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