51swx20b: raunchy reds? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 10-15-2002, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm having a problem with my new Hitachi. Dark scenes with a lot of red (ie: night scene lit by fire as in the scorpion king) look terrible. Bright scenes look great, dark scenes with little to no red look great, bright scenes with red look great, dark scenes with red look like crap. (edit) This is with a new JVC S500BK progressive dvd player btw. My old one had the chroma bug that I never noticed on my old tv.

I'm thinking maybe turning down some of the red values in the service menu or isf menu or whatever might cure the problem but I don't know how to get in and what to tweak when I get there. Anybody want to share some insight? I also have not set the convergence yet (don't know how yet). I have done the Magic Focus but it doesn't improve anything.

Tweaking it may be all for nothing. I noticed a severe "smudge" on the screen last night when I turned off the dvd player. I'm going to examine that more carefully tonight and see if it's something that's at all visible with a signal present. Does anyone know if a tech will come out to just fix that instead of replacing it? I would rather it be fixed instead of replaced if I manage to make this one look good.

Overall, I do like the set. I've been holding off on posting my review until I spend more time with it, tweak it some, etc.

-Doug
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post #2 of 28 Old 10-15-2002, 10:11 PM
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I have seen alot about the smudging. I get my set this Thursday, it better be clean!!

btw, get an ISF calibration.....


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post #3 of 28 Old 10-15-2002, 11:29 PM - Thread Starter
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It's very hard to see but, like most things of this nature, once you see it once you'll see it more and more. I can see it while watching movies now so either they're going to have to send someone out to fix it or they're going to have to replace the set (which might not solve the problem if it's a widespread issue like it seems to be).

The ugliness in red scenes is still driving me nuts too...

-Doug
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post #4 of 28 Old 10-16-2002, 08:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Anyone? Mfusick?

-Doug
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post #5 of 28 Old 10-16-2002, 08:16 AM
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Doug,

How long have you had your set? I got mine about a week and a half ago and I noticed a green tint to everything. This has since gotten much better after 50 hours of viewing. Have you calibrated with Avia or Video Essentials yet?

Also, I checked my screen out pretty thoroughly having read about the "smudge" problem and have not seen anything to this point. Hopefully it won't pop up down the road!
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post #6 of 28 Old 10-16-2002, 08:29 AM
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One other thought...what color temp are you using? "Standard" is supposed to be the closest to 6500K.
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post #7 of 28 Old 10-16-2002, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dammit!
Anyone? Mfusick?
Alright, you forced me into it:D

I would first recomend letting the set break in very well, let things settle down. Simply reduce contrast to about 50% for now, and color about 40% and see what heppens with the settleing process.

Afterthat, I'll have some info in the tweaks post I am working on about how to fix that.

Sounds like the greyscale is off in the lower IRE area.

You can attempt to eyeball greyscale and make the changes if the picture is objectionable.

MichealTLV (capable, knowledgable and excellent calibrator) wrote a nice summary of it:

Quote:
This pertains to Panasonic sets, Hitachi sets, Samsung sets, Some Sony sets, Mitsubishi sets, but currently not Toshiba sets. Pretty much any set that has direct access to the colour decoder parameters.

On some sets there are 4 decoder parameters and on others there are only two. The parameters are usually denoted with the following nomenclature:

R-Y, B-Y, R-RY, B-RY, B-GY, etc.

The tweak is meant as a fall back position when you find that the combination of r/g/b filters and AVIA / VE still don't produce an acceptable result to your eyes when it comes to decoder adjustments. It is very likely that sometimes, the results with the filters will simply look wrong ...

Hence the "Eyeball Colour decoder Method."

You will need flesh tone reference in order to do this. I like to use the Jennifer with Chip Chart frame from the Video Essentials DVD. This is Title 18, Chapter 23.

I would say that after you have given the filters a shot, come to this frame and look at Jennifer. Here is where you can fine tune the colour decoder.

Take the first parameter ... say R-Y ... and note where you are starting from. Now take it from one end of the range to the other and see what it does to her skin tones and the chip chart. At a certain point it will look best for you.

Now move onto the next parameter such as B-Y ... and move that from end to end ... and se what happens ... you will then settle on a position where things look right to you.

Once you have eyeballed this ... you are finished with the colour decoder. Don't worry about the gels ... just enjoy the images ... and everything will now look right to you ... which is what matters in the end.
Also, you could remove some of the Color with the Drives and Cuts in the service menu. Probably just subtract a little RED would be better and easier and safer.

Drive and Cuts are how you set greyscale. In some older Hitachi models there was only a Drive or a Cut for two colors, and the third was adjusted by changing the other two since they are all interelated.

I think this had changed on the 20B models and there is a drive and a cut for each color to set grey scale.

WARNING: ENTERING THE SERVICE MENU CAN DAMAGE YOUR SET MORE. I WOULD RECOMEND WRITTING DOWN VALUES OF ANYTHING YOU MIGHT CHANGE BEFORE YOU CHANGE THEM!

Quickly press input and hold it a split second as you turn the set on with the power button. Done with the correct timming, this gets you into the service menu.

Write down the values, and then slowly change the R-DRV or the R-CUT just a little bit. Do this with a DVD on the screen with a paused face for flesh tone reference. Only adjust it a little bit, and return it to the factory value if it does not work. Adjusting too much will make the picture too red, too blue, too green... You get the idea.

I'll be around if you need more help....

-MIKE

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post #8 of 28 Old 10-16-2002, 09:18 AM
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Doug,

Turn down color level to the 20's.

I'd suggest not doing anything else until you have at least 100 hours break in. The set will change dramatically during the first 100 hours. It's possible to get red blooming just due to break in and having the color level too high (above 30 is too high during break in, in my experience).

After break in, realign using Avia or VE. Then see where you are. If there are still problems, then it's time to look at greyscale and color decoder alignment.

Les
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post #9 of 28 Old 10-16-2002, 11:25 AM
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I have a 51GWX20b, with about 200+ hours on it and I too have the raunchy reds. I tried watching with the color down in the 20s and I have found that I do not like the loss of color color saturation that causes that . Sure the reds will tone down, but so do the sharp vivid greens and blues that a higher color setting will give you. Why punish all the colors when it's just the reds being naughty? ;)

I've got a tech from Teletron service here in Seattle coming out to look at my set on Monday. According to the the Imaging Science site they are ISF trained so I'm sure they know what they are doing. I'll post the results on this forum.



-Jamie

...as always, I could be wrong.
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post #10 of 28 Old 10-16-2002, 01:01 PM
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Greetings

If the dark areas have an overall red tint to them ... then you have a grayscale issue and not a colour decoder issue.

You can turn down the rcut a bit or conversely increase the blue and green cuts a bit .

Cuts = dark end of image.
Drv = bright end.

Regards

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The Video Calibration Education Hub -
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post #11 of 28 Old 10-17-2002, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Michael TLV
If the dark areas have an overall red tint to them ... then you have a grayscale issue and not a colour decoder issue.

Cuts = dark end of image.
Drv = bright end.
I should have included that. Thanks.

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post #12 of 28 Old 10-21-2002, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Reflex-Arc
I've got a tech from Teletron service here in Seattle coming out to look at my set on Monday. According to the the Imaging Science site they are ISF trained so I'm sure they know what they are doing. I'll post the results on this forum.
Probably a better thing than attempting it yourself. I am sure when you see how easy it is you'll try to do it yourself anyways, thinking you can get it better than the tech can. Atleast that's how I am...

Did you buy and try AVIA first?

I would...

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post #13 of 28 Old 10-30-2002, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Reflex-Arc
I have a 51GWX20b, with about 200+ hours on it and I too have the raunchy reds. I tried watching with the color down in the 20s and I have found that I do not like the loss of color color saturation that causes that . Sure the reds will tone down, but so do the sharp vivid greens and blues that a higher color setting will give you. Why punish all the colors when it's just the reds being naughty? ;)

I've got a tech from Teletron service here in Seattle coming out to look at my set on Monday. According to the the Imaging Science site they are ISF trained so I'm sure they know what they are doing. I'll post the results on this forum.



-Jamie

...as always, I could be wrong.
Don't keep us hanging. What did the tech do/say?
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post #14 of 28 Old 11-04-2002, 10:03 PM
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The way to get the best picture is to first set the grayscale to 6500. Then you can go into the service menu and do two things: turn down the red and turn up the green. Green is almost always deficient. My color and tint controls are at exactly 50 percent using the 3 different color bar types in AVIA with the 3 color filters. And the sharpness is all the way down.
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post #15 of 28 Old 11-05-2002, 04:47 AM
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I have seen people using Avia or VE to help adjust their sets. I might have a two year old Avia around, but dont know if I can find the blue strips (or whatever they were). Given that I might have to buy a new version, what would you all recogmend I get...Avia or VE? I need the one that is easies to use. Thanks in advance>

Robert P Wagner
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post #16 of 28 Old 11-05-2002, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Reflex-Arc
I have a 51GWX20b, with about 200+ hours on it and I too have the raunchy reds.
I've got about 100 hours on a 57TWX20B, and I get relief by setting the temp to high; DVD's look great (I think) when I do this. Have already used AVIA.

If I choose standard temp, yup - too much red.

Still recovering from furniture arranging syndrome (FAS).
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post #17 of 28 Old 11-05-2002, 06:35 AM
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You should consider ISF calibration.

A ISF pro can dial in the color decoder to %100 accuracy with no red push.

You could learn to do such a thing yourself too..

-

"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #18 of 28 Old 11-06-2002, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by squigly1
Don't keep us hanging. What did the tech do/say?
Sorry! I forgot all about this thread.

The first time the tech came out, he could not even figure out how to get into my GWX's service menu, and had to reschedule for later that week. That honestly struck me as a bit odd. The second time he came out he adjusted some of my geometry issues (for the most part it's still curvy in spots), but flat out told me he was NOT going to mess with the color decoder, it looked fine to him, and that I should just turn down the color in the user menu if I thought it was too red.

Gee.
Thanks.

Oh well, he chaulked it up as warranty work so I can't complain too much.

So... Can anyone tell me how to get into the service menu, and what values I can play around with to get my red push under control?
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post #19 of 28 Old 11-06-2002, 05:03 PM
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Input + power, on the front panel. It usually takes me 2-3 times before I get it right. I didn't really play around in there. Am a bit nervous I'll screw things up and not be able to get back. I'm having my set ISF'd mid month.

Good Luck
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post #20 of 28 Old 11-07-2002, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by squigly1
I'm having my set ISF'd mid month.
Who's doing it?

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post #21 of 28 Old 11-07-2002, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by squigly1
Input + power, on the front panel. It usually takes me 2-3 times before I get it right. I didn't really play around in there. Am a bit nervous I'll screw things up and not be able to get back. I'm having my set ISF'd mid month.

Good Luck
Thanks! Does anyone know what settings I'd need to play around with to even out the reds?
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post #22 of 28 Old 11-07-2002, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mfusick
Who's doing it?
I thought I discussed this with you. Anyways, as you can see, I'm in Toronto so my choices are limited. I would have gone with michaelTLV but he won't be back this way until the spring and that's to long to wait. I am getting JohnnyG to do it. Though Hitachi is not his specialty, I believe he is certianly more than capable.

Actually, Johh and Michael know each other. I spoke to Michael about getting Johnny to do the job and he advised that if I didn't want to wait for his next Toronto tour, that John would be a person that he could recommend. That's good enough for me :)

PS What ever happened to that tweak thread/post you were working on?
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post #23 of 28 Old 11-08-2002, 11:47 AM
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bump.


Can anyone lend a guy a hand?
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post #24 of 28 Old 11-08-2002, 12:02 PM
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Yeah MFusick, what happened to that thread
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post #25 of 28 Old 01-16-2003, 09:53 AM
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I am working on it now

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #26 of 28 Old 01-16-2003, 12:11 PM
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Use AVIA blue color bars first. Set Color and Tint to center. Enter service mode. Set Color and Tint in service mode to equalize blue bars. Next, scroll thru service menu and set COLORG to 01 for minimum red push (factory is 00). Next set R-Y PH and R/B GA using red color bars and red filter. R-Y PH adjusts the yellow/magenta bars. R/B GA adjusts the red/white bars. Also adjust G-Y PH and G/B GA using green bars and green filter. G-Y PH adjusts the yellow/cyan bars. G/B GA adjusts the green/white bars. You will find that the red needs to be decreased and the green increased. Also, the settings for standard video (composite) will be different than Component. You will find that you can get a very good calibration on the component input. But the composite input will still be lacking in green. It is this lack of green gain that makes it look like there is too much red. Hope this helps.
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post #27 of 28 Old 01-16-2003, 01:46 PM
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test
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post #28 of 28 Old 01-16-2003, 04:55 PM
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I have a XWX 65 and I didn't have any red problems, just a little on the green side, and very little, but I am going to calibrate it after about 300 hours of use, and than I will judge. These new TV's really need to be ISF'd. It is a new world with these .52 high contrasts and I think some of the material is just put out that way and until now it helped TV's but with these ultra hi tech new ones' it makes things like Reds and greens show up more with no gain.
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